PM Abhisit Announces Next Election Will Be Held On Nov 14

[deadsnoopy]

Reply to deadsnoopy.

Thailand has had democracy for many years, the basis being 'one man one vote'. Just because some people choose to sell their right to democracy to the highest bidder is not the fault of democracy. It is the fault of the seller of their right of a democratic vote.

Cheers, Rick

Under which fundamental of democracy was the 2006 coup executed?

Simple. Plain. Effective. Love your answer.

[shawndoc]

My guess is Abhisit knows the outcome, this has already been settled behind the scenes. There might be one or two hold outs on the red side (Seh Daeng, etc), and this public announcement of a settlement was to help push them along. My guess is tomorrow the red shirts will deny the government proposal, publicly announce a compromise (election in Sept or October), and the government will agree to that (or perhaps or more round of offer and compromise between the two camps).

This way all sides get to save face. The red leadership can brag how they got the elections they wanted and got the government to give up nearly a year and a half left in their term as well as reforms to help the poor of Issan (many of which were already passed in the last couple of weeks, but overlooked in the press). Abhisit gets enough time to finish up the budget and put out a referendum on constitutional changes, and goes down as the man who kept violence to a minimum. (Depending on how things shake out, he may also get to preside over the military reshuffle)

[deadsnoopy]

Electoral fraud is rigging an election. The Election Commission recommend the dissolution of the ruling Democrat Party for receiving an illegal 258 million baht donation and the alleged misuse of a 29 million baht political development fund provided by the EC.

So if I get an illegal donation and then use it to pay for my election, that isn't election fraud? Either way, it's fraud. So basically, we have a fraudulent government and a fraudulent Prime Minister telling the whole country that there might be elections held if everything goes according to them. Great. But thanks for enlightening me.

Snoops, to save embarrassing yourself further and given that you appear to have been in Thailand for a maximum of 30 seconds, I would like to recommend that you use the Google feature from the Internet to find the facts on the recent history of Thai politics and then you might be able to make some posts that have a modicum of credibility.

Good hunting.

Cheers, Rick

What's so difficult to understand for you?

The Election Commission on Monday decided by a vote of 4-1 to recommend the dissolution of the ruling Democrat Party for receiving an illegal 258 million baht donation and the alleged misuse of a 29 million baht political development fund provided by the EC.

The current and previous constitutions limit individual donations to 10 million baht a year.

[jcbangkok]

He continued with Thaksin's 30baht health care plan

Actually I believe it is now free. He has done A LOT more than you have mentioned in just 18-months in office. But the important thing to remember is he has NOT taken away ANY benefits the poor have received under Thaksin and has actually bettered them and added more. Funny thing is that Thaksin had 6-years to help these folks and it is clear he did not succeed in putting them on any kind of path to financial freedom because if he did, they would not be so freaking broke and helpless. Handouts for buying votes is not an answer.

[WillArzonia]

I see that it is an "IF" this roadmap cannot and should not be accepted by the opposition. Burma has easier rules. Keep on fighting I would say.

Your comments betray the fact the while you know nothing about the situation in Thailand, you know even less about Burma.

[snaggletooth]

Abhisit just tries to safe his $ss, because he know's wen he resigns, his life is over.

Stupid "vision"! Get real.

Get real? Mmmm...let's see, where to start?

- Almost starting a war with Camobodia over a stupid temple?

- Dumping refugees out in the ocean to torture and then die?

- Introducing computer crimes act?

- Southern problems increased drastically?

- Drug problems increased drastically?

- Working together with the criminal Sondhi?

- According to CRES has taken illegal donations?

- Not allowing the Dalai Lama into Thailand?

- Deportation of Hmong refugees back to Communist Laos ?

- Rejecting human rights commisions?

- Need to go on?

Thaksin murdered 2500 Thais and he's still around. He has done other shit of course but 2500 dead Thais I think tops the list.

- The temple row was started by that foul-mouthed swine Samak.

- Under Thaksin, more than 100 southerners were killed when they were piled into the back of trucks like logs after being rounded up by the army.

- Thaksin strong-armed the Thai import-export bank into giving Burma a loan to buy satellite service from his company Shinsat.

- Thaksin strong-armed the national communications commission into giving his cell-phone company preferential treatment by absolving it of paying the same fees as its competitors.

- He rigged a bid so his wife could buy a massive land plot in the heart of BKK.

- He threatened advertisers in newspapers that were critical of him.

- He shut up the free media by threatening lawsuits over accurate reporting, such as the cracks in the runway at the new airport.

This is just a short list.

[jdinasia]

Reply to deadsnoopy.

Thailand has had democracy for many years, the basis being 'one man one vote'. Just because some people choose to sell their right to democracy to the highest bidder is not the fault of democracy. It is the fault of the seller of their right of a democratic vote.

Cheers, Rick

Under which fundamental of democracy was the 2006 coup executed?

I am not sure ...

Perhaps it was under the "an extra-constitutional caretaker government was removed and not a democratically elected government. That the head of that caretaker PM had publicly resigned the caretaker post. That the caretaker PM had robbed Thailand blind, and was trying to whitewash his TRT party and the Temasek deal. That the PM had publicly said "Democracy is not my goal". That the caretaker PM, during his time as an ACTUAL PM had torn down the checks and balances needed for a democracy to survive.

I think it was one of those things .... but THIS thread is about New elections in November -- about 13.5 months early

[bangkokrick]

Reply to deadsnoopy.

Thailand has had democracy for many years, the basis being 'one man one vote'. Just because some people choose to sell their right to democracy to the highest bidder is not the fault of democracy. It is the fault of the seller of their right of a democratic vote.

Cheers, Rick

Under which fundamental of democracy was the 2006 coup executed?

I never said that a military Coup was democratic did I? This Government was democratically elected under the rules of Thai law. Do you think that the red shirt confiscating red protesters ID cards and refusing to allow them to leave is democratic. Using women and children as a human shield behind gasoline filled tyres which would be set ablaze in case of forced eviction is democratic. Out and out terrorism in my book, but then again we are all different.

Cheers, Rick

[jcbangkok]

election fraud is the misrepresentation or alteration of the true results of an election.

Illegal contributions is something entirely different or in this case an investigation into the possibility of knowingly accepting illegal contributions.

[jcbangkok]

Reply to deadsnoopy.

Thailand has had democracy for many years, the basis being 'one man one vote'. Just because some people choose to sell their right to democracy to the highest bidder is not the fault of democracy. It is the fault of the seller of their right of a democratic vote.

Cheers, Rick

Under which fundamental of democracy was the 2006 coup executed?

Bizarre question considering the current PM didn't come to power through a coup and certainly not the one in 2006.

[473geo]

He continued with Thaksin's 30baht health care plan

Actually I believe it is now free. He has done A LOT more than you have mentioned in just 18-months in office. But the important thing to remember is he has NOT taken away ANY benefits the poor have received under Thaksin and has actually bettered them and added more. Funny thing is that Thaksin had 6-years to help these folks and it is clear he did not succeed in putting them on any kind of path to financial freedom because if he did, they would not be so freaking broke and helpless. Handouts for buying votes is not an answer.

It is free.....but you may care to check your dates!!!

[gl9999]

- The temple row was started by that foul-mouthed swine Samak.

- Under Thaksin, more than 100 southerners were killed when they were piled into the back of trucks like logs after being rounded up by the army.

- Thaksin strong-armed the Thai import-export bank into giving Burma a loan to buy satellite service from his company Shinsat.

- Thaksin strong-armed the national communications commission into giving his cell-phone company preferential treatment by absolving it of paying the same fees as its competitors.

- He rigged a bid so his wife could buy a massive land plot in the heart of BKK.

- He threatened advertisers in newspapers that were critical of him.

- He shut up the free media by threatening lawsuits over accurate reporting, such as the cracks in the runway at the new airport.

This is just a short list.

And that ladies and gentlemen is why someone deserved to get a coup de tat shoved up his ass. It may not have been part of the constituition but it sure as hel_l was the right thing to do.

[bangkokrick]

Snoopy, will you please stop screwing up the quotes so people can reply directly.

This has not been proven and the Government still stand. The Government today did not offer to dissolve, they offered elections, which is not the same thing is it?

I am really happy that you took my advice and Googled.

Cheers, Rick

[noahvail]

a reasonable person would expect to see the proposals in writing, go through them, develop questions and rebuttals, and then go through back-channels to express their concerns. Most negotiations are not done under the spectre of the tv camera.

I think you missed the part about there will be no more negotiating with red shirts ... they lost that option after showing their true color.

I will suggest that you show a somewhat limited knowledge of the process of negotiation. Public posturing is just that: posturing. It's part of negotiating. Do you think that Mr Abhisit went on the air to tell the public his proposal without first notifying the red shirt leaders through intermediaries? In that way, insanity lies. And the PM is far from being insane. He's showed himself to be a skilled negotiator - and a patient one - resulting in a small number of deaths (though it can be argued that one is one too many). The other option was to crush the rebellion, at the cost of many thousands of lives. Negotiations saved many, many lives. That's what defines a successful negotiation in this kind of situation.

Cut through the rhetoric, and look behind the glass tube into what has taken place outside the view of the public.

So just how do we do that? Maybe you are privvy to what goes on outside the view of the public, but most of us have to rely on what we can glean from an arguably biased media.

The vast majority of posters here act and write as if they have some special ability to discern other people's motivations. As long as you have already made up your mind about how and why things are being done, then no discourse can help. Someone needs to be mature enough to say "OK, I really don't believe what you are saying, but I'm willing to give you a chance to show that you are sincere".

Ah, I'm glad you are being mature. Of course, I can not literally see through the glass of the TV screen - it's a metaphor.

But I have accomplished a fair few successful negotiations in my varied career - and a few unsuccessful ones as well. You learn fairly quickly what buttons to push, when and how hard to push them - as well as helping your opponent to save face when he has made a mistake, an offer that he could not possibly comply with himself.

Negotiations are not a game, they are a skill set acquired through both study and action. The nature of negotiation is well documented, with many case studies brought before both undergrad and grad students.

Debates are similar to negotiations - you want to win, but it does not mean you have to crush your opponent. Mr Abhisit was on the debating team at Oxford, and learned well. He also read history and economics. He's been elected to the position of an MP seven times. He understands Thai politics as well as having a western influence.

Again, back-room negotiations means not using your first-tier negotiators. It's a well and long-established technique whereby each side sends a second- or third-tier negotiator for clandestine meetings with their counterpart. Issues are discussed, but not agreed upon. That is for the principals to decide. If they decide positively, a memorandum of agreement is drawn up - though it may be simply a phone call rather than leaving a paper trail. Then by agreement, one side announces a "final call" - which is already agreed upon.

In this case, one can never be sure of the honesty of the negotiators - on either side. It is, after all, politics, and things can turn on a moment's notice. But if and when they do, the process takes a step back and starts again. Posturing and saving face, to try to come to a decision that no one is happy with, but that each one can live with. And in this case, "live" is an operative word.

So that's it - some of my learning and experience. Of course, hostage-taking negotiation tends to run by a somewhat dissimilar set of rules - but that's a different forum discussion somewhere.

[thaifrelst]

Has none of you people the minium requirements to quality when comes to politic? Everybody with the smallest experience from politic knows this is crap of the worst kind. This is making fun of a whole population.

[CMX]

New in Thailand, I'm having difficulty in following assumptions made by many posters.

It seems generally to be accepted (there were briefly a flutter of exceptions) that government means to carry out these steps. I know that Abhist has retained innovations from the previous government regarding rural people in particular. But I know of no time in history of planet earth where such a transfer in the distribution of wealth has taken place because of a sense of civic duty.

So what in the world has so many of you convinced that the forces which he represents will ultimately support the kind of financial revolution necessary to fund these reforms? The Devil is in the Details!

And if you were a leader of red shirts, could you trust a government which has not moved beyond the status quo since the last military takeover?

And if there is a military/red shirt confrontation resulting in horrible tragedy (this assumes that the military is willing to do so), how will the incumbents be viewed by the general population, not to mention the world? Would not the provinces become troubled, the resolve of the reds increase, and the conflict polarize further?

[Jimi007]

Electoral fraud is rigging an election. The Election Commission recommend the dissolution of the ruling Democrat Party for receiving an illegal 258 million baht donation and the alleged misuse of a 29 million baht political development fund provided by the EC.

So if I get an illegal donation and then use it to pay for my election, that isn't election fraud? Either way, it's fraud. So basically, we have a fraudulent government and a fraudulent Prime Minister telling the whole country that there might be elections held if everything goes according to them. Great. But thanks for enlightening me.

Thailand is a Constitutional Monarchy, not a democracy. There is lot more to it than you seem to spout on about. What province in Thailand do you have a vote in? I am not Thai I can't vote unless I apply for citizenship and am able to read and write Thai as well as speak it. Been here for over ten years and an asset to The Kingdom and many other requirements. But you have some quick reply to most everything... The EC just came out with their vote, a majority of one to have the case forwarded to the Attorney General's Office to be further investigated before any court proceeding would even start... Sometimes it is better to read than write! But what would I know, I'm kind of old and slow. LOL! I know I have other things to do that are more fun than posting on TV over 23 times a day...

[phomsanuk]

Amnesty will be an issue here - apart from that, I would like to hear the objections to this suggestion. It sounds better than any other alternatives we have right now.

Amnesty for them would open the door for amnesty for Thaksin as well.

[snaggletooth]

election fraud is the misrepresentation or alteration of the true results of an election.

Illegal contributions is something entirely different or in this case an investigation into the possibility of knowingly accepting illegal contributions.

Thank you.

[eggomaniac]

What an absolute boondoggle to think that if and when an election is called there is going to be a be all and end all situation in Thailand. In the 80 years of failure of the Western style democratic system in Thailand there have been times when there were slim chances for reform; this is NOT one of those times.

It is much more interesting to note how this Nov 14 date meshes with the Military reshuffling in the Fall AND the results of those promotions of officers will be way more informative about the future of Thailand than another botched and disputed election.

Forever into the future, as long there is still a pig trough, yer gonna 'ave pigs; as long there's a swamp, your going to have crocodiles, BIG and small.

These current events are just filling the pages of the book of the last 80 years, with room for 100 more years.

The only smart people in all of this are intrinsically educated 70% of Thais, The Mute Majority, that are standing on the sidelines waiting to jump onto the side of whichever gang comes out on top.

Even if Thaksin is back in power and all buddy, buddy with Sondhi again, would that surprise anyone? While this is pure inductive reasoning, it is the only way to explain some of Sondhi's recent comments. 'not a Thaksin movement anymore' "I forgive the man..blah blah."

LOOK at the military promotions; they will be way more important than any election.

While the upcoming election is the Topic of debate, it is NOT the meat of the matter.

What was that Rolling Stone song? Here comes our 19th constitution! [oh 20th?]

[earthpig]

the elections are obviously a necessary, but i would suppose insufficient step, for thailand to get this revolt off its back. surely new elections should help to heal the sense of injury felt by the reds due to the coup.

but there is an underlying problem, and it isnt economic, its ethnic. the real problem is that the issan people are sick of being treated as second class citizens by the rest of the thais. and the other simmering problem is that the muslims are sick of being treated as third class citizens.

somehow this nation has to come to terms with the fact that it has multiple different ethnic identities and the minorities are mad as hel_l and feel disenfranchised. if it doesnt, this place could, one day--i think not that soon, but one day--end up like the former yugoslavia. tak bai remains a horrifying symbol of what might happen if the Thais dont learn to respect their diversity.

[way2muchcoffee]

It seems to me that Abhisit has the Red Shirts over a barrel. The international community including nearly every western nation, most Asian nations, NGOs, and the world press has been clamoring for negotiation and a peaceful settlement to this crisis. These calls have been echoed domestically by the business community and many other groups throughout Thailand.

Abhisit has quite publicly offered a compromise that the world will see as reasonable and fair. If the redshirts reject this last attempt at peace they will face world condemnation.

Edited May 3, 2010 by way2muchcoffee

[bangkokrick]

It seems to me that Abhisit has the Red Shirts over a barrel. The international community including nearly every western nation, most Asian nations, NGOs, and the world press has been clamoring for negotiation. These calls have been echoed domestically by the business community and many other groups throughout Thailand.

Abhisit has quite publicly offered a compromise that the world will see as reasonable and fair. If the redshirts reject this last attempt at peace they will face world condemnation.

In a nutshell, very good post.

Cheers, Rick

[lannarebirth]

What an absolute boondoggle to think that if and when an election is called there is going to be a be all and end all situation in Thailand. In the 80 years of failure of the Western style democratic system in Thailand there have been times when there were slim chances for reform; this is NOT one of those times.

It is much more interesting to note how this Nov 14 date meshes with the Military reshuffling in the Fall AND the results of those promotions of officers will be way more informative about the future of Thailand than another botched and disputed election.

Forever into the future, as long there is still a pig trough, yer gonna 'ave pigs; as long there's a swamp, your going to have crocodiles, BIG and small.

These current events are just filling the pages of the book of the last 80 years, with room for 100 more years.

The only smart people in all of this are intrinsically educated 70% of Thais, The Mute Majority, that are standing on the sidelines waiting to jump onto the side of whichever gang comes out on top.

Even if Thaksin is back in power and all buddy, buddy with Sondhi again, would that surprise anyone? While this is pure inductive reasoning, it is the only way to explain some of Sondhi's recent comments. 'not a Thaksin movement anymore' "I forgive the man..blah blah."

LOOK at the military promotions; they will be way more important than any election.

While the upcoming election is the Topic of debate, it is NOT the meat of the matter.

What was that Rolling Stone song? Here comes our 19th constitution! [oh 20th?]

I think you miss the point of the proposal. There are just many many things that Thais never talk about. Consequently these issues tend to move towards instability and factionalism. This proposal, which initiates a process, is about people from across the political spectrum coming together in good faith (hopefully) to discuss the future of their country, culture and society. It creates an atmosphere of empowerment rather than the atmosphere of resignation which has long existed here. Will it solve every problem in Thai society? No of course not, but it moves the society forward by a constructive process. Change will come through debate and consideration as opposed to how big someone is and how many clients he is patron to.

It's important to remember here that is not the red shirt rank and file Abhisit needs to win over, as all of this is on their behalf and they'll get that if they get to hear it, it is those sectors of society that will pay the bill and those sectors that will get cut out at the middleman trough. He can't accomplish that himself in a backromm. He needs the people to accomplish it in plain view.

[jcbangkok]

In close to the last 80 years Thailand's number of coups is equal to about 1 every 4 years (or once every election cycle). In fact, I believe Thaksin is the only PM to actually complete a full term as PM.

So, if all the reds want is an election then they clearly don't want change but just more of the same because elections don't seem to solve anything in Thailand. And if reds are willing to give up their lives and those of others as well as risking tanking the economy and putting more than 60k+ Thai workers out of work all because of a several months on when elections will be held then they are mentally defective.

I really don't believe they are mentally defective but instead believe they worship Thaksin and want to see him installed as the permanent leader in Thailand.

[trevorg]

So, what should I tell my wife, to tell the meeting, to tell the kids when they go back to school next week!

This is a proper question, not some political debate, though, my dads bigger & badder than your dad comes to mind!

Should i start a separate topic?

[lannarebirth]

but there is an underlying problem, and it isnt economic, its ethnic. the real problem is that the issan people are sick of being treated as second class citizens by the rest of the thais. and the other simmering problem is that the muslims are sick of being treated as third class citizens.

You've outlined a real problem in this society. It doesn't have anything specifically to do with the reason for this Red Shirt movement but it explains how rich political/merchant class organizers could readily get thousands of people to come fight on their behalf.

Edited May 3, 2010 by lannarebirth

[gatorsoft]

Reply to deadsnoopy.

Thailand has had democracy for many years, the basis being 'one man one vote'. Just because some people choose to sell their right to democracy to the highest bidder is not the fault of democracy. It is the fault of the seller of their right of a democratic vote.

Cheers, Rick

Under which fundamental of democracy was the 2006 coup executed?

Bizarre question considering the current PM didn't come to power through a coup and certainly not the one in 2006.

Bizarre response since there was no suggestion made that the current PM came to power through the 2006 coup. The 2006 coup was only brought up refute the idea that Thailand has had a democracy for many years.

[jcbangkok]

It seems to me that Abhisit has the Red Shirts over a barrel. The international community including nearly every western nation, most Asian nations, NGOs, and the world press has been clamoring for negotiation. These calls have been echoed domestically by the business community and many other groups throughout Thailand.

Abhisit has quite publicly offered a compromise that the world will see as reasonable and fair. If the redshirts reject this last attempt at peace they will face world condemnation.

In a nutshell, very good post.

Cheers, Rick

I agree but disagree ... this is nearly the same offer he made previously but what has happened in the mean time is the world and people of Thailand have seen what the reds are about and now see how reasonable the PM is being. Many people first coming into this side with the reds because there story sounds so great in terms of a military coup and military backed PM and all they want is an election ... but then they see how unreasonable, violent and dishonest the reds are as they stick around for a bit.

[citizen33]

Subject to the stated conditions meaning what one might reasonably take them to mean (for example on the media), this seems to me to have the makings of a fair compromise. The one extra thing I'd like to see included - and I never thought I'd say this - is another year for Anupong to calm any fears of dirty dealings in the military leadership reshuffle ahead of the election.