The All New Bush Bashing Thread

[Bob Chittie]

SoCal, in saying 'World leaders don't respect Bush? So what!', you sum up the entire problem so well. Americans compose 4% of the world's popualtion. And if the whole world thinks we're crazy and if the whole world thinks our president is insane, well <deleted>#k them all. Those six and a half billion people just don't understand. We're right. They're wrong. God Bless America.

[Axel]

SoCal, in saying 'World leaders don't respect Bush? So what!', you sum...

God Bless America.

I like this comment, including the last one, God bless America.

Take this positive, without bashing, a word I always hear from people, who have no more arguments.

You know, I have no feeling for my own country, governed by a bunch of idiots.

Do you believe me? Than just explain the tear in my eye, when the national anthemn is played. Yeah, probably the icy winds in Bangkok.

Bashing? I get upset, if somebody says I do. I could bash America, same as I could half of Europe, where I worked and lived. Don't ask me now for the Asian countries, where I lived for years. Say a word to a Japanese against his 'Kimmigayo-anthemn', object to a 'Vive la France', to a ....

I don't want to list all of them. Everybody has a god given right to be proud of his/her country.

But I believe, I have a right to say what I think of GWB. I said it before, if he stays within the boundries of his country, I will not comment. But this guy wants to rule ME. Sorry, not accepted.

A few (shoot, many) years ago, I wrote a paper for examination. The title I used for respect was J.F.K. Never mind, he was a US-President. I admired him. Blame me?

GWB? 2 days ago 18 Italian killed in Baghdad. I blame him for it. I have no voting rights. If you are a US-citizen, you vote for or against. I only will judge the USA by her CEO, the guy you voted.

Too long, so I finish God bless...

you all

[Membrane]

More funny Insane Blah Blah Blah !!!!

More funny Insane Blah Blah Blah !!!!

More funny Insane Blah Blah Blah !!!!

Coward. Hiding behind your keyboard is fun, huh?

Hey pussy, I'll be in Bangkok next week. Wanna meet me? Let's see how far your "11 years of Muay Thai" training will work on me...

[kwiz117]

In my feeling, one can bring pro and con - arguments. Well funded, and, where possible without emotion. I know, there are people of different opinion, I can discuss, but not the way you do it. I wastes my time and usless to find a decent reply.

Axel, you are spot on. It is impossible to discuss any opinion with many of Anti American, Anti Bush or Bush Supporters/US Supporters who ever they call themselves in this forum as they express feelings against each other than taking time to putdown the points for a discussion.

I have put down many questions about Iraq and specially that the US has already done the mistake of invading Iraq [According to my books it is a mistake], we should discuss the recent happenings. It is more deadly and risky than Sep 11 attacks when thniking of the future.

Look at the statement Issued by France.

Question 1: "How many more should dye in Iraq for US to realize that the present Strategy is not working?"

Now, do you guys [specially all Bush Supporters] agree with this statement or not.

Do not now just go off the rails and slam France for the stand they took on this issue and all sort of other arguments against them. Just give a reply if any one of you can? Just learn to respect a bit for how France acted in this issue taking the stand of their nation and the opinion of people. It is another country like yours.

If anyone of you think, this is not true, then can you answer this question.

Question 2: "If France, Germany, Russia and all UN Members supported the US decision to invade Iraq and joined with US, then do you think by now you have won the war against Terrorism and you can stop all these Suicide Bombing taking place in large numbers".

{lets assume that US invaded Iraq is part of the agenda of fighting Terrorists and not finding WMD to simplify answers to the above question, though we all aware of real intentions}

As we all aware that president Bush now wants to hand-over the power to Iraqi Governing Council as sooner as possible and US is working towards this now ;

Remember two months back?

Question 3: When France/Germany and Russia requested to come out with a very quick plan and a deadline to hand-over power to Iraqi people represented Governing Council during the UN Security Council session, why did US objected saying it is 'Unthinkable and unrealistic'?

Don't you agree that US objected to it simply because of the high Ego Bush has over this matter and not thinking of your own national interest?

Question 4: Do you really believe that giving another 4 Yrs to Bush, he will be able to fight against Terrorism and make a world without WMD?

Now that is the basis that I am saying your present US President G.W Bush has made US and all who support him jokers.

Who ever like to join with a constructive discussion are welcome to put down answers to above 4 questions.

[kwiz117]

GWB? 2 days ago 18 Italian killed in Baghdad. I blame him for it. I have no voting rights. If you are a US-citizen, you vote for or against. I only will judge the USA by her CEO, the guy you voted.

Axel..

It is not finish..more to come and the rate of suicide bombing has sky rocketed than never before.

I do blame Bush, and also the people who back him. Do sympathise with the families of all innocent victims.

I can recall the statement made my Dr Nelson Mandella just before US invading Iraq.

"US is making a one big mistake and by invading Iraq, you will create thousands of new Terrorists than destroying them".

See the situation now. Many Terrorists survived..all leaders including Sadam, Bin Laden, Bush, Blair, Hoggard all survived.

Who got killed? Over 5000 of Iraqi innocent civilians

{Making all of their families valid contenders to carry out next Suicide Bomb attacks... Now who is brain-washing them..Is it US or is it Sadam? }

I have seen the devastating effect of Suicide Bombings than any of you, I suppose.

I remember one mother of an Army Officer saying to the Government ministers

"Why don't you send your son, daughter to the battle field first to fight against terrorist as you do not have a clue on what is happening down on earth."

Some may think sacrificing lives of Minority for the sake of protecting Majority is acceptable.

Then, go to the UN and ask for a vote to decide what is the Minority that we should destroy? and what is the Majority that should be protected? One or two bunch of nations have no right to take that decision.

By the way, this theory of "Killing minority for the sake of Majority" have some similarities to the mentality of "Polpot".

[kwiz117]

More funny Insane Blah Blah Blah !!!!

More funny Insane Blah Blah Blah !!!!

More funny Insane Blah Blah Blah !!!!

Coward. Hiding behind your keyboard is fun, huh?

Hey pussy, I'll be in Bangkok next week. Wanna meet me? Let's see how far your "11 years of Muay Thai" training will work on me...

"I'll be in Bangkok next week. Wanna meet me? Let's see how far your "11 years of Muay Thai" training will work on me..."

Conspiracy

Oh oh..is this you or someone else copied from you?

[Butterfly]

SoCal, in saying 'World leaders don't respect Bush? So what!', you sum up the entire problem so well. Americans compose 4% of the world's popualtion. And if the whole world thinks we're crazy and if the whole world thinks our president is insane, well <deleted>#k them all. Those six and a half billion people just don't understand. We're right. They're wrong. God Bless America.

sure. Well 90% of people tell that you are crazy, maybe they are onto something. For the insane, it's always the majority that is wrong

"I am not crazy, dr, I swear, you should be there, not me" - patient about to be locked into a mental institution

[Butterfly]

More funny Insane Blah Blah Blah !!!!

More funny Insane Blah Blah Blah !!!!

More funny Insane Blah Blah Blah !!!!

Coward. Hiding behind your keyboard is fun, huh?

Hey pussy, I'll be in Bangkok next week. Wanna meet me? Let's see how far your "11 years of Muay Thai" training will work on me...

So what's your favorite position ? doggy style or missionary ? are you a taker or a giver ?

[stumonster]

Is there leader on this planet( democratically elected?? or not ) that actually cares about his people. I would say his/her share portfolio gets more consideration.

The only care they have is that the majority is kept too preoccupied with keeping up with the marketing joneses to question the tripe their spin doctors roll out to explain reality.

and meet the membrane.. and what form is the combat supposed to take? bruce willis style or nicolas cage.....

and JFK was a scumbag.. no matter what hollywood says

stacked dead actors.. can you make it look like we won...I hope they all die blonde

[Pablo H]

I don't think people here should start making threats or try to act tough. That comment about the twin towers was stupid and out of order, but threating to beat the shit out of someone will not change anything.

We all have different views and we all, I guess live in our own worlds and have our own view of reality.

I know, Americans must get angry when they see attacks on their leader, but I think with a few exceptions the people who are knocking Bush have nothing against the American people themselves. Bush is a threat to the whole world and I think people are entitled to express their opinion about him, his government and policies.

Tomy, I am from England, I know my history and I know you guys helped us out, and the rest of Europe for that matter in the past, it would be a shame if we all turned on each other now.

I hope Bush goes (one way or another) soon. I think when he does the world will be a safer place and maybe, just maybe we can start to work out the problems that face us in a peaceful way without causing more suffering.

Make love not war.

[Membrane]

Who ever like to join with a constructive discussion are welcome to put down answers to above 4 questions.

Good questions, Kwiz. And even though I can see you and I are on opposite sides of the fence, I think you and I should be commended for trying to actually have a real conversation, as opposed to the circus this thread has been lately.

So first of all though Kwiz, let me say that I'm really not a political person. I'm not an avid Bush supporter. But I'm certainly not a Bush-basher either. I simply live in America and I think I understand what my government is trying to do. I have no idea whether or not it's going to work, but I do trust that my government really does feel it's trying to do something good (and not just good for America). You of course, are entitled to disagree with me, and that's fine. But the point I'm trying to make here is that frankly, I would much prefer to be with my TG, relaxing at the pool or just hanging out at home. I'm not one of those farang who come to Thailand to sit around and talk politics (or anything else) with a bunch of old men. (So, why should I do it online)?

...So, if you want "the party line", maybe someone else can answer all your questions. But I do care about my country--and yours--and I care about the state of the world and the mess we all seem to be in, world-wide. I especially take offense to the constant bashing my country seems to be given, so I will take your questions seriously and give honest answers as I see it.

Question 1: "How many more should dye in Iraq for US to realize that the present Strategy is not working?"

Answer 1: Of course we want to keep the fatalities down. We don't want American (or Iraqi) sons and daughters killed or maimed. But the Bush administration evidently feels there is a job to be done and they have a "what ever it takes" attitude. Have you ever seen the movie "Saving Private Ryan"? Remember D-Day and the slaughter the Americans sustained, fighting the Nazis? Same thing, if we have to. In other words, the Bush administration is going to invest money and lives to try to make Iraq a democratic government... Yeah, I already know, you feel this is a ridiculous idea. But right or wrong--foolish or brilliant--I think GWB thinks that if he can succeed in bringing a democracy to the middle east, then that will change everything; sort of a domino effect. Other people in neighboring countries will see the benefits of that style of government and way of life and "regime changes" will occur in other countries--without spilling another drop of American blood, or Iraqi blood, (or Iranian blood, Syrian blood, etc.) In other words, people will bring about a change in their own governments without the U.S. having to do anything else. Now I am not saying I necessarily think this will happen, but as I understand it, that's the idea.

Also by the way, there is evidence that the resistance in Iraq is coming not from ordinary Iraqis, but from the remaining Saddam loyalists--and Al-Quaeda. There are still many, many people in Iraq who had a pretty rich lifestyle under Saddam, and they want to go back to the old days. And of course, how can Al-Quaeda resist engaging the enemy with it so close to home?

Question 2: "If France, Germany, Russia and all UN Members supported the US decision to invade Iraq and joined with US, then do you think by now you have won the war against Terrorism and you can stop all these Suicide Bombing taking place in large numbers".

Answer 2: No, not necessarily, and it's because of the type of war going on. The terrorist style of waging battle is not to go out on an open battlefield, because they know they'd lose--they're no match for U.S. fire power, technology, organization and number of troops. But if all they have to do is place a pipe bomb somewhere, then walk away, they can still do substantial damage. And of course, how do you prosecute and bring to justice, someone who straps on a suicide bomber jacket and simply blows themselves up? So although there might be an immense amount of man power, fire power, etc., if France, Germany, Russia and the rest of the U.N. members joined with the U.S., it doesn't necessarily mean it could stop terrorists posing as civilians from moving about (and striking).

The real answer is not how many men, but how commited those men are in bringing about a fundamental change to the country. And I might be wrong but I don't believe France, Germany and Russia had great plans to bring about great change in Iraq. If anything it was to keep Saddam in power, so that he could repay the loans made to him by those very same governments.

Again the idea is to set up the Iraqi people with a self-ruled, democratic government and hope it can stay up and running long enough for the average Iraqi to see the benefits of it. And to set up a government that is tolerant of different religions, as well. Christians and Muslim should be able to live next door to one another, and live in peace. That may be hard to do under a hard-line, religiously-based government, don't you think? I believe that's part of the plan and one of the reasons why the Bush administration is adament about finishing in Iraq (and yes, finishing soon).

Regardless of the anti-American and/or anti-Bush progranda that you may have been exposed to--America does not want to dominate the world--or Iraq. I think it's true, we want to be able to stand in line (along with Europe and everyone else) and buy Iraqi oil. But not take it. Really--if this war was ONLY about oil, why would the Bush administration be spending tens of billions of US dollars to build schools, hospitals, roads, etc.? If this war was simply about oil--we'd just take it, and ###### everything else. But that is not what is happening. Again--if you doubt what I say, look at how much money is being spent NOT AS A LOAN but is an outright gift, to try to set up Iraq as a democracy in the middle east, for all the reasons I gave above.

Question 3:When France/Germany and Russia requested to come out with a very quick plan and a deadline to hand-over power to Iraqi people represented Governing Council during the UN Security Council session, why did US objected saying it is 'Unthinkable and unrealistic'? Don't you agree that US objected to it simply because of the high Ego Bush has over this matter and not thinking of your own national interest?

Answer 3: No, I think the reasoning was more like why should we go in and spend all the time and effort to bring Saddam down and then leave before the job was done? France, Germany, and Russia all had economic interests in Saddam's old government, so of course, they didn't want things to change too much. Plus, Saddam apparently has tremendous staying power. Why should we go in and not finish the job? Why should we leave before the clean-up has taken place and a democratic style government could be set up? That is when the U.S. will leave, not before. And yes, the Bush administration will take on Al-Quaeda and deal with with terrorist attacks from other militant Muslim extremist groups, if they have too, in order to get the job done. After the new government is set up and stable and is controlled by local Iraqis, that's when the job will be done. But by that point, they will know they have a friend in the U.S. (And the rest of the world will see it too).

Doubt what I'm saying? What about Japan in World War II? Japan is now one of our allies. Yes, the American government back then felt it had to take some pretty drastic steps to end the war, but Hiroshima and Nagasaki did it, didn't it? Casualities? Yes... and it was horrible. I've seen them. But when confronted by a force so fiercely determined to take our lives and to dominate us, believe me, the U.S. will fight back.

And it's the same thing now, in this new century. Unfortunately, I fear we have not yet seen the worst. The way things seem to be headed, I think we may be headed for a very big show-down, unfortunately. I, for one, don't want this. But I absolutely do not want the destruction of my country. We did not sit on the sidelines in WWII and we will not not sit idly by again, if a great evil threaten our lives, families or homes.

Question 4: Do you really believe that giving another 4 Yrs to Bush, he will be able to fight against Terrorism and make a world without WMD?

Answer 4: The man in persistent. If you watch him, you can tell he really believes in what he is doing. So yes, if elected, he absolutely will continue to fight terrorism. As for a world without WMDs? That's like saying is it possible to ever completely stamp out crime? No, of course not. But would you recommend we stop trying? Do you think it would be a good thing to disband your local law enforcement agency, because "after all, there will always be murders, theft and larceny"?

... Now, I'm 100% sure there are those who will want to continue the debate. I may or may not have time. I'm going to be quite busy in the coming several weeks and I may or may not be able to counter every single new post. I may not even be able to sign back in for a while. Plus, it's not my job to counter every single argument against my country or the administration that currently runs it. And it's certainly not my job to continue the thread with people like bitterfly, who just wants to stir up anger and act like a juvenile. That has gotten quite boring and I don't have the time to play with the kiddies any more. I didn't mind outting him as the hate-filled idiot he is, but I'm not going to continue bantering back and forth with an imbecile.

But Kwiz, of course, I don't know you but by the way you worded your post, I think you may be different. I think you wanted to have a constructive discussion with someone who had a differing view from yours, so I responded.

[WilliamIV]

But I believe, I have a right to say what I think of GWB. I said it before, if he stays within the boundries of his country, I will not comment. But this guy wants to rule ME. Sorry, not accepted.

GWB? 2 days ago 18 Italian killed in Baghdad. I blame him for it. I have no voting rights. If you are a US-citizen, you vote for or against. I only will judge the USA by her CEO, the guy you voted.

I agree with these 2 sentiments ...

Except I thought they did NOT vote for Bush

- the other guy got more votes !

so ... how can he be RE-elected ??

No matter what you say that is what everybody thinks !!!

I think Bush is a decent honest Christian

but like most Americans knew nothing much about

the world outside his own country

At least his actions must have corrected that

short coming!!! In fact most of the world

must have improved on their geography

since the Invasion of Iraq.

But he was completely misguided and arrogant

in trying to save the world by Invading Iraq

without UN agreement.

And without commiting sufficient forces

to succeed - The Iraq Army was not conquered

neither did it surrender - it ran away

- to fight another day - what a mess

Bill

[Butterfly]

Who ever like to join with a constructive discussion are welcome to put down answers to above 4 questions.

Good questions, Kwiz. And even though I can see you and I are on opposite sides of the fence, I think you and I should be commended for trying to actually have a real conversation, as opposed to the circus this thread has been lately.

I think your replies are so weak that I will refrain from replying or else I will sound nasty again. Pure trash. Nobody can be that stupid and believe what you write. This is the official "faux" news propanda things. Simply amazing that someone can have such a state of denial and "justification" for being so wrong.

I think Bush is dangerous not because he is "evil", but only because he is stupid, and stupidity is dangerous at a certain level. I am sure he must be a great guy for talking hunting and NASCAR but beyond that I think he should just stay home and have fun with his PlayStation. His life was not easy. He has been a total failure all his life and if it was not for his dad, he wouldn't have made it past high school. I won't mention the problem with his abuse drinking (a long-time problem in the Bush family) and drugs that must have damaged his brain beyond help.

I think he is being manipulated beyond recognition, and that's why he is an "easy" target. The people behind him are far more dangerous, but since he is the "Forrest Gump" of the Administration, he makes a perfect public target, and the people behind him know it. I think if he was gone, most americans would see more clearly what this Administration is really about. Bush Sr must also be having a hard time seeing his son being ridiculed on the world stage. Bush Sr was "evil" in the pure sense, but at least he was smart, very smart, and he knew how to respect his allies and partners even though everyone knew he was a snake.

Anyway, it was fun outting the all bunch of you "neocons". We got to spot at least 4 or 5 of you. Not bad.

[kwiz117]

Membrane,

A Big Thank you for taking all your time to put down the best reply I ever got so far in this forum irrespective of the difference of opinions.

I do respect your views and decided not to go on and on about this subject again. I think anyone who read your views and all other Anti Bush views will be able to understand the grounds for the 2 different opinions.

As you have very correctly said, we have many things to do other than discussing politics in Thailand.

But it is interesting and occasionally good to be part of such a discussion.

Thank you

[Membrane]

Membrane,

A Big Thank you for taking all your time to put down the best reply I ever got so far in this forum irrespective of the difference of opinions.

I do respect your views and decided not to go on and on about this subject again. I think anyone who read your views and all other Anti Bush views will be able to understand the grounds for the 2 different opinions.

As you have very correctly said, we have many things to do other than discussing politics in Thailand.   

But it is interesting and occasionally good to be part of such a discussion.

Thank you

Thank you Kwiz. You are a good man!

It's this kind of mutual respect and good communication that is the necessary foundation before anything else good can occur. Don't you agree? It's too bad not everyone else feels the same way, huh? Really too bad.... (for them).

Take care Kwiz! Thanks again for asking some good thought-provoking questions. Keep it up!

Peace,

Membrane

[stumonster]

saving private ryan was a movie, which dissrespects the memory of the canadians and new zealanders who actually assaulted the beaches in question.

I more think bushes(his think tanks) motives involve being in charge of an economic superpower for the next four years, though maybe he cannot see that he is sending the country broke..

the bulk of the american taxpayers money being spent on rebuilding the infrastructure of iraq will be going to bechtel and halliburtons, who by coincidence happen to be major donors to bushs political party and have on their boards many of bushes mates.

In this day and age of media coverage, war cannot subdue countries even with a small amount of resistance left in them , because you cannot get away with wholesale slaughter any more.

when you wish to fight a battle, you don't consult the rules of the marques of queensbury if you wish to win, you do what works.

the majority of american really don t give a shit about anything more than friends, sex in the city, and when the next macdonalds toy is coming out.( though I could also say that about the rest of the so called first world countries)

[mrvietnam2001]

One night, George W. Bush is tossing restlessly in his White House bed.

>He awakens to see George Washington standing by him. Bush asks him,

"George,

>what's the best thing I can do to help the country?"

>

> "Set an honest and honorable example, just as I did," Washington

>advises, then fades away.

>

> The next night, Bush is astir again, and sees the ghost of Thomas

>Jefferson moving through the darkened bedroom.

>

> Bush calls out, "Tom, please! What is the best thing I could do to help

>the country?"

>

> "Respect the Constitution, like I did," Jefferson advises, and dims

from

>sight.

>

> The third night sleep is still not in the cards for Bush. He awake to

>see the ghost of F. D. R. hovering over his bed. Bush whispers, "Franklin,

>What is the best thing I could do to help the country?"

>

> "Help the people, just like I did," FDR replies and fades into the

> mists.

>

> Bush isn't sleeping well the fourth night when he sees another figure

>moving in the shadows. It is Abraham Lincoln's ghost.

>

> "Abe, what is the best thing I can do right now, to help the country?"

>Bush pleads.

>

> Abe replies, "Go to the theater.

Cordially

Mr Vietnam

[kwiz117]

2 Yrs from now..

Two guys called Bush and Blair decided to reside permanently in Iraq as they thought it is the safest place on earth to be and with the sweetest of memories they have.

One day, Bush visited Blair Family home bordering “Tigris River” in Iraq and noticed the huge house he has built with all facilities in it.

While enjoying a beer in the Garden Terrace;

Bush : My Friend, I am just curious to know how you managed to earn so much money to build such a lovely house in Iraq by holding a government office and spending so much money on the present race that you just lost.

Blair : you know my friend.. Point to the newly started, partly completed Bridge over the Tigris River…

Can you see that new Bridge that we have just stopped construction after your Marines destroyed it.?

Hmm..That is the secret of mine..

Bush took it very lightly, as he is all the time…

1 Year Later… Bush family Invited Blair Family for a Dinner..to a newly constructed huge Palace overlooking the “Tigris River”…

While enjoying a beer in the Garden Terrace;

Blair : My Friend, when you visited me last time, you just lived in that stolen palace of our friend Sadam. I am just curious to know how you became so successful in one year’s time..

Bush : you know my friend.. point to the Tigris River…

Can you see that new Bridge built after my Marines Destroyed it.?

Blair : Confused as he is and looking around for a Bridge. He could not locate any bridge in the direction he is pointing his fingers. Thinking that Bush is drunk, he said, “Sorry my friend..I can not see any ..”

Bush Hmm..That is the secret of mine..

[Membrane]

Hmmm... Maybe it wasn't over oil or domination after all...

From Yahoo: U.S. TO END IRAQ ADMINISTRATION BY JUNE

U.S. to End Iraq Administration by June

By SLOBODAN LEKIC, Associated Press Writer

BAGHDAD, Iraq - American administrators will hand over sovereignty to a new transitional government by June, the Iraqi Governing Council said Saturday, announcing an accelerated U.S. plan for ending the occupation of Iraq (news - web sites).

The announcement came on a day when the 400th U.S. soldier died in Iraq since major combat started here March 20, and a U.S. Army helicopter crashed in the north. The military had no immediate word on the cause or possible casualties.

The plan would mean the end of the U.S.-led coalition administration in Iraq, but not the end of the American troop presence. The new Iraqi government would negotiate an accord on the status of U.S. forces in the country.

From Washington, the White House welcomed the new plan in a statement, calling it "an important step toward realizing the vision of Iraq as a democratic, pluralistic country at peace with its neighbors."

The new timetable followed talks between the 24-member council and the chief administrator, L. Paul Bremer, who returned Thursday from Washington after talks with President Bush (news - web sites) and senior national security advisers.

Faced with escalating violence in Iraq, the Bush administration wants to speed up the handover of power to Iraqis — dropping its earlier insistence that the Iraqis first draw up a new constitution and hold general elections, a process likely to last at least another year. The Iraqis had been insisting on a faster transfer.

Council member Ahmad Chalabi, appearing at a news conference with other members, said the selection of a transitional government should be completed by May. The government, he said, will be "internationally recognized" and with "full sovereignty."

Council President Jalal Talabani said the transitional administration would be selected after consultations with "all parties" in Iraqi society.

Council members also said the plans called for a permanent constitution to be drafted and an elected administration chosen by the end of 2005.

Talabani said the new government would negotiate an accord with the U.S. military on the role of American troops in the country after the handover.

"As of now, we will begin a dialogue with occupation authorities on the security matters, but when the transitional government is set up all authorities will be transferred to this government," he said.

The new government will be "in charge of security in Iraq, internal security as well as the budget of Iraq and in control of all parts of Iraq. Then no other powers will have authority concerning internal security."

Sunni Muslim council member Adnan Pachachi said the U.S.-appointed Governing Council will notify the U.N. Security Council of the timetable for creating the new institutions. The United Nations (news - web sites) had set a deadline of Dec. 15.

Asked whether the Americans wanted to hand sovereignty because of rising death tolls, Pachachi said: "I think you should address this question to the special representative of the U.S. government." Pachachi added that America was "responding to our desire" for political power.

The insurgency against American forces, initially centered in the so-called Sunni Triangle of central Iraq, now appears to be spreading to the north and south.

On Saturday, a roadside bomb exploded next to a patrol in Baghdad's northern Ad Hamiah neighborhood killing a U.S. soldier — the 400th death — and injuring two others, a statement said. The British military has reported 52 deaths so far in Iraq, along with one soldier each from Denmark, Spain, Ukraine and Poland.

In Baghdad, several blasts were heard in the city's western suburbs. A spokesman for the 1st Armored Division, which is responsible for security in the capital, said its units had fired mortars at insurgents.

Also Saturday, an explosion derailed a train traveling between the towns of Samara and Tikrit, 120 miles north of Baghdad, a military spokesman said. The cause was not immediately clear.

The death toll of a suicide bombing Wednesday at a headquarters for Italian forces in Iraq reached 17 Saturday, when a severely wounded soldier was pronounced dead in Kuwait.

In the northern city of Mosul, Khalid Victor, a translator working for the municipal administration and his son were killed Saturday when gunmen opened fire at their car, officials said.

"It's obvious that they are targeting all Iraqis working with Americans," said a city official who declined to give his name.

Australian Defense Minister Robert Hill said the U.S.-led coalition may have underestimated the determination of fighters loyal to deposed leader Saddam Hussein (news - web sites), media reports said Saturday.

"With the benefit of hindsight, and of course in a country awash with arms, it now seems much more logical ... that they would attempt to fight back," the Australian Associated Press quoted him as saying.

Hill said the coalition had also "underestimated the complexity of Iraqi society" including the role of tribes, ethnic and religious differences "and how complex it would be to put together out of that a government that might be referred to as democratic."

Here's the same story, with a "slightly" anti-American viewpoint, (from ALJAZEERA).

Of course, if the Americans stay in Iraq, the spin is they are accused of being "war-mongerers, taking over the country", etc. But if they leave, then they spin it to mean "they failed to achieve their goals"...

Almost laughable, and always predictable, how the spin is always anti-American no matter what!

[Butterfly]

Well if you fight with pigs, don't be surprised if you are covered with mud. The Americans wanted that illegal war, so why they keep whinning about people being Anti-American ? they deserve the bashing for being so irrespectful to the world and to the Iraqi. You weren't expecting flowers and the red carpet when invading, right ? oh wait, you were...

[Guest IT Manager]

>    "Abe, what is the best thing I can do right now, to help the country?"

>Bush pleads.

>

>    Abe replies, "Go to the theater.

Cordially

Mr Vietnam 

Mr Vietnam you just stepped up big time in my estimation.

I worry about the way Mr Bush sees his role in a world that is developing like lightening.

I am worried for my sons, that they will see Iraq as the way to fix things. I don't believe it is the right answer.

I am worried that American patriots who believe in their country, accepted the "snow job" done to them, and then supported Mr Bush, simply because he is President, rather than asking the hard questions about the answers hinted at before the unilateral invasion.

I would have been happier if Mr Bush had said "that man is bad for world peace", but he didn't. He said they have WMD, we are the only country that can be trusted with them. (Nagasaki and Hiroshima both strongly disagree with that premise).

"Oh, and of course Israel can have them because they are our good friends and we do all we can to help them take over the 2,000 plus year old home of the Palestinians. We aren't sure why, but I bet if I asked My dads' friend Mr Cheney he would know"

Old men, sitting in the Oval office drinking coffee, and killing boys on the other side of the planet. Dubya appears to be fighting his fathers' war, but that may be just my take on it.

I accept that the people of Iraq are generally happy that Saddam is gone. Please tell me the difference between Camp X-Ray and that jail south of baghdad where Saddam killed people who disagreed and his sons went to watch the killings? From my perspective, the men and children in camp X-Ray have been told they will be tried by military courts and may face the same penalty the people Saddam locked up in that prison did, but couched in the vernacular of law, world peace and terrorism, in a quasi-legal forum.

Please explain the enormous volumes of money going to Haliburtons in the name of rebuilding. American tax dollars are staying in America, and are being used as mattresses by the "Clean Up Company".

Building schools, rebuilding and repairing hospitals destroyed by mis guided (twice) "smart" bombs. The money isn't being spent in Iraq at all. It's being spent in America.

I accept that America with its' crippling national debt, and its' morally crippled leader, needs a new way to generate income, but at the cost of the lives of American Soldiers and Iraqi civillians, I think it is a high cost, which eventually will be debited to Mr Bush's account.

On the way there, when I think about customers asking "is it safe for me to walk down the street in your village alone and unarmed?" I think the cost has been high already, but the bottom line has not been reached.

I for one see the points made by Americans about all countries needing some form of democracy, but surely American Democracy is not automatically the only model to be explored. There are many versions, and IMHO that one is not by any means the best and is certainly not the only, explorable and workable option.

I hope a time will come when Mr Bush will go quietly to the theatre, and leave his dad on the ranch and his dads' friends standing about the barbeque discussing the good old days over a side of ribs and a can of Coors, and leave the rest of the world to move forward without a need to constantly kill and be seen to kill, in the name of the protection America requires from an ideology which was not born there, has no place therre, and is unacceptable to the people there, but which works quite well in a country attuned to the needs of a different demographic.

[Butterfly]

Hmmm... Maybe it wasn't over oil or domination after all...

From Yahoo: U.S. TO END IRAQ ADMINISTRATION BY JUNE

So what happen if the Iraqi decide to choose an Islamic Replublic. Were they liberated from Saddam so the US was the only to choose the type of government they need ? kind of sad, isn't it ? Iraq will turn into an islamic republic with a civil war phase once the US is leaving. What a failure.

[kwiz117]

Butterfly?I am sure Bush will not simply handover the power. Now as we all know, they are drawaing another plan to make things more confussed for Amerian People and some of others who believe all their politicos say in various media controlled by them, without accepting the realitiy.

They have already said the intention to handover the power when the first two helicopters went down and with the 3rd and 4th and now another two crashed inside, the ?Brave Mens story that Bush give each week to make his followers boost up has changed the rails and infact changing the track towards France?.

But one thing, they have said that they will handover the Power to Iraqi people but do not have any plans to widraw troops from Iraq..

?What a funny little statement that is?. I mean you American?s?.. Why do you guys let some bunch of leaders to make you fool like this.. and allow them to distroy your own innocent Sons and Daughters for no reason?

Handover power and not to widraw..What kind of Democracy is that?

Your Bush will define the Democracy the way he wants. The world did not ask to make Iraq a Democratic nation. It is upto Iraqi?s to decide. But your Bush wanted to make it Democratic.

Now he is going to allow Iraqi?s to form a Demacratic Governing Council and then expect them to allow all American troups to stay in Iraq.

Do you guys think that in the future ?Democratic Repubic of Iraq? with all Muslim people, will decide to allow Americans to be Consultants for them.

Funny..Funny..Funny?

[Membrane]

1) Iraq is the new battlefront for Al-Quaea and other terrorists groups to fight the U.S. All the fighting in Iraq is not strong-minded Iraqis resisting America. I'm sure some of it Saddam loyalists, but I'm also certain a lot of it is Al-Quaea and others coming in from Syria, etc. So, just because you see "resistance" there, don't automatically be fooled into thinking it's ALL of Iraq fighting back "the Great Satan".

2) I think, as Butterfly pointed out, that eventually Iraq very well may evolve back into an Islamic state. One that will probably be anti-American. So long-term, the GWB plan will probably not work. But then again, it might. I have to be honest and say, I'm not familiar with the way the average Iraqi thinks to know one way or another how it will turn out. Another possible outcome is that maybe democracy might take hold. Who knows? We'll just have to wait and see.

So what if in the end, the Iraqis do decide to choose an Islamic Replublic? So what? Does that mean they will automatically be a terrorist state? I don't think so... What do you all think? I think as long as they are not trying to attack the U.S., they can have whatever structure they want. It would be a shame though, if things were to go backwards, with women being oppressed, not allowed an education, etc.

So Kwiz, IT, whoever:

Question 1) What would be so horrible if they did end up with a democratic form of government?

Question 2) Why do you think Iraqis won't or don't want a democracy?

[mrvietnam2001]

I'll always laugh when people other than Americans rally around "democracy" as they've never known anything better than that.

I'll always have a very sour look on my face when Americans do though.

They obviously don't have a clue as to the definition of this mob rule form of government and certainly don't have a clue as to what freedom is. They should know better.

So for you "others", Democracy: two hungry wolves discussing what's for dinner with a lamb.

And since the transition from freedom to democracy what we have now is the worlds most powerful wolves getting more and more hungry every day.

Is better to disappear than be eaten. Unless of course there were enough real Americans left to get back to being Americans and take care of things........

But it doesn't look like that's going to happen and so it's better to disappear. then be eaten.

That's one thing that we can learn from the brits who are expats wherever they've disappered too. Sad huh?

Mr Vietnam

[mrvietnam2001]

>    "Abe, what is the best thing I can do right now, to help the country?"

>Bush pleads.

>

>    Abe replies, "Go to the theater.

Cordially

Mr Vietnam 

Mr Vietnam you just stepped up big time in my estimation.

Ahhh perhaps.

And perhaps there are many others who are feeling the same.

Rgrds

Mr Vietnam

[Guest IT Manager]

So Kwiz, IT, whoever:

Question 1) What would be so horrible if they did end up with a democratic form of government?

Question 2) Why do you think Iraqis won't or don't want a democracy?

I didn't say they wouldn't get, or didn't want a democratic state.

I said the American Model is NOT the be all and end all of democratic models. There are dozens, including the single party type of democracy in Thailand, which will be bi-partisan at first glance, but shows holes on closer examination. It is still a democracy, just not the DUBYA type. Wouldn't you agree?

I don't know whether Iraqis' want democracy or not, all I said was there are far more packets of mama in the store, than the model being presented to the "unthinking nation" than the American Model. It works for America since as I understand it, only 25% actually exercise the right to vote, quoting such lame clap-trap as "well it ain't mah fault pardner, Ah dint even vote" or "what good is my vote, it won't change anything".

As long as people feel that to be the case, it won't change. If however 90% voted, it may be interesting to see where in the dogfight, Dubya ends up. IMHO, it would not be directing the smart bombers.

[Membrane]

Look guys, can I ask that we do something new here? Two things I'd like to propose. Nothing any reasonable person should have any objection too, I don't think.

1) Explain yourself. Instead of just saying "Americans don't understand what true freedom is", explain what your definition of "true freedom" is. Why go to the bother? Only for one simple reason: I'd really like to understand your point of view better, that's all. Seriously. So for example, if you feel the American style form of democracy "doesn't work", don't just say "it doesn't work" (because there are plenty of people who feel it does)! And continue to explain what form of government does work best, in your opinion. If you feel America is so bad, don't just "bash" it--tell me why and what is better.

This is our chance for all of us to have a meaningful conversation, not just vent and "bash". That doesn't do anyone any real good. I think we've turned a corner in this thread recently and I don't want to see it go downhill again. I want to know what your thoughts are--I'm curious! But I don't want to be called "a pig" or that I "deserve" to die, simply because I live in America. That is simply rude and unnecessary. And that leads me to the request...

2) Let's try to drop all the insults remarks, OK? There's no need for it in a forum like this. It certainly doesn't sway me or do anything to convince me of your position. If all of us--and I mean ALL of us here--IT, Mr. Vietnam, Kwiz, Butterfly, all of us--if we can't treat each other with respect, how can we have any hope our respective leaders can? Let's use this forum as a way to convince, rather than to insult.

Does that sound fair? Can we try that for a while and see how it goes?

Peace,

Membrane

[chonabot]

Let's try to drop all the insults remarks, OK? There's no need for it in a forum like this. It certainly doesn't sway me or do anything to convince me of your position.

Good thoughts Membrane , if only if only though.....

[Nemesis]

Have you noticed how the US propaganda machine is telling us how the US is kicking ass on the terrorists, cells destroy, prisoners taken, assets froze, caves destroyed, Taliban wiped out?

Then on the other hand whenever a bomb goes off somewhere in the world, it's suspected to be Al Qaeda?

The enemy is at the same time too weak and too strong.

Reminds one of Charles Dickens, it was the best of times, it was the worst of times.

What images don't work on this forum?