Abhisit - A Prime Minister Tried By War

[monkfish]

Edit: double post

Edited May 20, 2010 by monkfish

[monkfish]

Interesting eyewitness report from an Australian journalist who was in Pathumwanaram Temple

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world...o-1225868915779

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world...o-1225869262085

[whybother]

I think, what Abhisit did wrong, was that he did everything too late, and too weak. At least the protesters should be questioned 1 week and charged with 20.000 Baht each, else it is still a profit for them and they will be here again April 2011.

As well Jatuporn is free again (because he is MP) and Thaksin is again not a Terrorist.

that means he is simply too weak for the job, a real war leader would not let Jatuporn go free and would let the army take the judge for questioning immediately.

Jataporn and Thaksin are out of Abhisit's hands. It's up to the courts.

Abhisit needed to wait as long as possible - 1) to allow the reds to make more mistakes (which they were very good at doing), and 2) to keep fence sitters, barely reds, and moderate reds from becoming more red. (Ofcourse, the hardline reds are a lost cause).

If Abhisit cracked down too early, he would have lost the support of the fence sitters, and the barely and moderate reds would have become more hardline.

I think he timed it quite well. But the reds generally dug their own grave.

[viking75]

Interesting eyewitness report from an Australian journalist who was in Pathumwanaram Temple

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world...o-1225868915779

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world...o-1225869262085

big problems for thai gov and elites is they are used to blind acceptence by thais.

they not allow for people to not believe their idiot spokespeople.

they say this many times that "if we want kill people many die". idiots as everybody see that many people did die. that they mean is not many important people (none i suspect) only poor farmers who want democracy.

all time thinking that world accept Abhisit as real PM when in face world media all state Thaksins elction wins as only time in thai history anybody was elected outright.

please thaksin, either butt out and let new leaders through, or come back and be a man like Seh Deang!!! He (Seh Deang) is to inspire a generation of freedom fighters in the young hearts. Lets hope their hearts are softer than the ruling Junta today.

[sbk]

I guess this thread needs it too.

Baiting, flaming, and posts of an inflammatory manner will result in the immediate suspension of the poster. I have deleted one insulting post, next one gets suspended 7 days.

[shiva2009]

Wasn't Clockwork Orange about a lunatic asylum? Perhaps you belong there.

Clockwork Orange was a about a English Sociopath, who bullied his two Low IQ friends into shocking violence, beating up the homeless on the streets, building to a violent crescendo of brutality & rape...

Main character is caught locked up in goal, undergoes a new psychotherapy regime funded by the then English Government, to control his violent urges, to the tune of Beathovens 9th Symphony used by Hitler with his SS & Gestapo as they went about their Genocide of A Nation... Upon his release, he finds himself at the other end of the scale, with all sorts of violence comming his way ( a feeble attempt of defining Karma), after giving in & not being able to respond in his usual sociopathic ways he tries to committ suicide, until another politician steps in and encourages him to find once again, the psychotic character within....

What I can't understand why anyone would attach an Avatar of the face of this sociopath & think it's a good thing.. Just like I wonder why anyone glorifies in violence, brutality & rape.. A Art House film made in the late 70's and a peice of crap... Just for those who don't know what this Trash film is about, classy hey!!

And really appropriate for this forum at this point of time......

[animatic]

Massacre defined as shooting 40+ people shot in the head and counting. More people being killed and we are hearing small fragments of information to confirm. Point is: more people are being shot.

Abhisit called for an election when it was safe to do so. No politician calls for an election he thinks he will lose. Abhisit got his position as a result of a military coup. He did not wait 4 years to get his position.

The majority of PMs voted the way they did as a result of changing political positions. Not he Political position they they were elected to hold.

Yes the majority of the PMs support Abhisit because they changed their political position. Not the one they were elected to hold.

I put to you, have an election now and see if you can make these same statements. I think not.

I know I will be suspended soon from these forum speaking this way.

Interestingly enough, telling lies is not against the TV forum rules. There would be a hel_l of a lot fewer posts here if it were. My guess is you will be suspended when you post inflammatory comments after another poster refutes one by one the points you try to make.

Actually it IS against forum rule 15

15) Not to use ThaiVisa.com to post any material which is knowingly or can be reasonably construed as false, inaccurate, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise in violation of any law. You also agree not to post negative comments criticizing the legal proceedings or judgments of any Thai court of law.

report him.

[expat8]

Once again, what massacre? It's standard for red propagandists to spout lies without any evidence or reason isn't it.

The reds need to learn to wait for elections every 4 years, when they're scheduled. Until then, they can campaign freely (unlike non-red parties in red areas).

Are you having a problem with a direct question. You are diverting. Abhisit did not wait for 4 years. A military coup did just fine.

Believe it or not I am not a red supporter but the ludicrous spewing is difficult to take. A reality check would do you good.

I'm having a problem getting a direct answer. You said "If he proceeds with a potential massacre then he loses." I asked "What massacre?"

It's seems to be you that is doing the diverting. I asked you twice, and you brought up completely different points.

"Abhisit did not wait for 4 years. A military coup did just fine."

It was Thaksin that didn't wait 4 years. He called a new election after just one year after previously winning a "majority". Then it was Thaksin trying to stay on beyond the constitutional time as care-taker PM that brought on the coup. The last election was in 2007. Currently the majority of elected MPs are supporting Abhisit. The reds need to wait until either the Democrats are disbanded, or the next election in December 2011.

Please, if anything I have stated is ludicrous, please explain where I have gone wrong.

Whybother I don't mean to direct this at you but you took up my conversation.

I believe the heartless farangs in this forum that condone the killing of thais do not understand thais. These particular farangs are here to hump the thai women and be about their way. I don't disagree with their approach but it leaves them with a rather distant perspective. Those of us that have built a relationship with a thai woman have developed an attachment with these people or an understanding that thai woman bangers don['t understand. Those of us has built an insight of how these people think, and speaking for myself I feel a bit protection as a result. I don't feel very good about thai people being killed for whatever reason. I think the thai people have an innocence that is difficult to describe but if you understand you know it is worth saving. I believe it is what keeps us here. So if it sounds like I take it personal that thai people are being killed you would be correct. I bitch louder than anyone about how they fleece us BUT....they are worth saving. Please do not preach the slaughter of the people you deem appropriate to kill. They are worth saving.

[Mekhong]

Interesting eyewitness report from an Australian journalist who was in Pathumwanaram Temple

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world...o-1225868915779

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world...o-1225869262085

big problems for thai gov and elites is they are used to blind acceptence by thais.

they not allow for people to not believe their idiot spokespeople.

they say this many times that "if we want kill people many die". idiots as everybody see that many people did die. that they mean is not many important people (none i suspect) only poor farmers who want democracy.

all time thinking that world accept Abhisit as real PM when in face world media all state Thaksins elction wins as only time in thai history anybody was elected outright.

please thaksin, either butt out and let new leaders through, or come back and be a man like Seh Deang!!! He (Seh Deang) is to inspire a generation of freedom fighters in the young hearts. Lets hope their hearts are softer than the ruling Junta today.

What a great man Seh Daeng was. What a master tactician, a genius almost! Where is he now - oops?

What a great man Thaksin was. What a rational, worthy, honest leader. Where is he now? Never setting foot on Thai soil again.

Party's over Viking. Live in peace now with Abhisit and his wise counsellors and enjoy it. You know you will

[khunjamespittman]

If Abhisit was the honorable person that The Nation claims he would never have become PM but would have demanded that a national referendum be held so that the citizens of Thailand could select the kind of leader the want. By not doing the honorable thing his legacy will always be that he accpted the illegitimacy by having his fate determined by a judicial ruling. Having put himself in that position he then has tried to hold on to his illegitimate power by disgracefully using the power of the Thai Army to kill the citizens they are paid to protect. What has he done for Thailand? The poor in Thailand still have no posssibility of improving their lives. The rest of the world thinks the Thai government is a joke and ignores its media request to do this or do that. Many countries have warned their citizens that Thailand is not safe. Hopefully the 3 or 4 government people who were in the media directing this shame will have to answer for their actions.

Let hope that Thailand will be allowed to have an fair election to choose their leader without the interference of the courts, the Army, the puppet media and the government so that Thai citizens will be accorded their human rights.

[animatic]

I think, what Abhisit did wrong, was that he did everything too late, and too weak. At least the protesters should be questioned 1 week and charged with 20.000 Baht each, else it is still a profit for them and they will be here again April 2011.

As well Jatuporn is free again (because he is MP) and Thaksin is again not a Terrorist.

that means he is simply too weak for the job, a real war leader would not let Jatuporn go free and would let the army take the judge for questioning immediately.

I suspect they are waiting till questioning of Red Leaders is over

and they have gathered more evidence for a knockout punch.

Next week will be fine to nail Thaksin's butt to the barn door.

And 15 minutes of a sitting Parliament and Jutuporn is no longer an MP.

Morals charges as a reason to remove him for shaming the parliament,

or something similar.

[Carib]

QUOTE (viking75)

If we can, let's be civil for a moment. 40+ people killed is just what we have heard. You said the army has been shot at. I will not dispute you on the definition of what "shoot" is but you have to agree soldiers are not dying and civilians are. I believe there are more civilians dying now. You can dispute that. That's ok. And yes the red shirts are causing damage, I do not dispute that as well. If you have been in Thailand any amount of time you understand these people are emotional people and they are a bit reactionary. Can a THAI leader not do better and not kill his own race? If he is a true leader can he not find a way?

Soldiers are not dieing???.......you better get your `propaganda` right viking, want more of these pics?? There are lots of them out there.

[

Edited May 20, 2010 by Carib

[animatic]

If Abhisit was the honorable person that The Nation claims he would never have become PM but would have demanded that a national referendum be held so that the citizens of Thailand could select the kind of leader the want. By not doing the honorable thing his legacy will always be that he accpted the illegitimacy by having his fate determined by a judicial ruling. Having put himself in that position he then has tried to hold on to his illegitimate power by disgracefully using the power of the Thai Army to kill the citizens they are paid to protect. What has he done for Thailand? The poor in Thailand still have no posssibility of improving their lives. The rest of the world thinks the Thai government is a joke and ignores its media request to do this or do that. Many countries have warned their citizens that Thailand is not safe. Hopefully the 3 or 4 government people who were in the media directing this shame will have to answer for their actions.

Let hope that Thailand will be allowed to have an fair election to choose their leader without the interference of the courts, the Army, the puppet media and the government so that Thai citizens will be accorded their human rights.

And without the interFEARance of the 'honorable men' who beat, stifle and silence

all dissenting voices north of Kohn Kaen, and then pay for their candidates to win elections...

That's an interference I am perfectly willing to have go away.

[jdinasia]

If Abhisit was the honorable person that The Nation claims he would never have become PM but would have demanded that a national referendum be held so that the citizens of Thailand could select the kind of leader the want. By not doing the honorable thing his legacy will always be that he accpted the illegitimacy by having his fate determined by a judicial ruling. Having put himself in that position he then has tried to hold on to his illegitimate power by disgracefully using the power of the Thai Army to kill the citizens they are paid to protect. What has he done for Thailand? The poor in Thailand still have no posssibility of improving their lives. The rest of the world thinks the Thai government is a joke and ignores its media request to do this or do that. Many countries have warned their citizens that Thailand is not safe. Hopefully the 3 or 4 government people who were in the media directing this shame will have to answer for their actions.

Let hope that Thailand will be allowed to have an fair election to choose their leader without the interference of the courts, the Army, the puppet media and the government so that Thai citizens will be accorded their human rights.

I am beginning to think that KJP just doesn't have ANY clue about the role of courts anywhere. Abhisit didn't come to power through a court ruling. PPP was disbanded due to a court ruling. 2 VERY different events. Abhisit became PM through a vote in parliament just like the majority of PM's all over the world. The courts do their job. When someone cheats they get kicked out. When a political party cheats ALL the party executives get kicked out and the party gets disbanded. The MP's that are not executives are able to join a new party as the choose. The Party-list MP's run for office again (or not) and their electorate votes for them (or not). The issue isn't the court's action. The issue is the party got caught cheating. When the court disbanded PPP they didn't get rid of the votes of the people. The people that they voted for were STILL their representatives. EVERY vote for every person that was cast was still valid. The party-list votes were not BUT the people who voted for those candidates got to vote again. Strangely (OK not so strange) the by-elections returned with 2 parties picking up more of those new MP's than PTP did. One party got 10, one got 7 (the dems) and PTP got 5.

Now about the desertion of the "Friends (of the banned politician) of Newin". Newin has always been the head of his own group no matter where that group landed. When PPP was disbanded he jumped ship and made BJT party a powerhouse that controlled who got the new coalition government formed. If you doubt he still has the support of his electorate --- wait and see Newin is the guy that Buriram follows and his neighbors tend to join him too. I expect BJT to be even larger after the next elections. The day that Thaksin could enlist (cough*) the loyalty of people like Newin or any of the other men with big political machines is over.

So ---- to sum up for KJP

The courts did their job when they disbanded PPP as PPP was GUILTY.

The courts did NOT make any statement about the rest of parliament.

It is NOT in the purview of the courts to make a "no-confidence vote" as you have claimed before. That falls into the purview of parliament and has not happened recently even though PTP considered it. (They didn't have the votes and knew it!)

The World Court won't be hearing any case about Abhisit as you have claimed. Again not their purview.

The media will do it's job and the press is fairly unemcumbered compared to the days Thaksin was in office. (Check out the political satire in notthenation if you haven't been here long enough to know what it was like back then!)

The Army will do what the army will do, but they have proven to the satisfaction of many Thais that they have no interest in running Thailand by having new elections about a year after the coup that got rid of an extra-constitutional caretaker government.

If you want to claim this terrorist led movement that call themselves the redshirts are wanting Democracy, then you need to look up the meaning of the word. Threatening to burn BKK down (and then commening to do so) is NOT Democratic. Even Veera when he turned himself in today managed to throw in a threat against Abhisit's family! Yes -- a movement led by men of great conviction to the cause of Democracy!

BTW ---- here is a good link about Newin ---- but it gives a good overview of history AND how politics work on a provincial level. It names the political bosses too ..... worth a read

http://www.th4u.com/newin_chidchob.htm

Edited May 20, 2010 by jdinasia

[SomTumTiger]

If Abhisit was the honorable person that The Nation claims he would never have become PM but would have demanded that a national referendum be held so that the citizens of Thailand could select the kind of leader the want. By not doing the honorable thing his legacy will always be that he accpted the illegitimacy by having his fate determined by a judicial ruling. Having put himself in that position he then has tried to hold on to his illegitimate power by disgracefully using the power of the Thai Army to kill the citizens they are paid to protect. What has he done for Thailand? The poor in Thailand still have no posssibility of improving their lives. The rest of the world thinks the Thai government is a joke and ignores its media request to do this or do that. Many countries have warned their citizens that Thailand is not safe. Hopefully the 3 or 4 government people who were in the media directing this shame will have to answer for their actions.

Let hope that Thailand will be allowed to have an fair election to choose their leader without the interference of the courts, the Army, the puppet media and the government so that Thai citizens will be accorded their human rights.

I am beginning to think that KJP just doesn't have ANY clue about the role of courts anywhere. Abhisit didn't come to power through a court ruling. PPP was disbanded due to a court ruling. 2 VERY different events. Abhisit became PM through a vote in parliament just like the majority of PM's all over the world. The courts do their job. When someone cheats they get kicked out. When a political party cheats ALL the party executives get kicked out and the party gets disbanded. The MP's that are not executives are able to join a new party as the choose. The Party-list MP's run for office again (or not) and their electorate votes for them (or not). The issue isn't the court's action. The issue is the party got caught cheating. When the court disbanded PPP they didn't get rid of the votes of the people. The people that they voted for were STILL their representatives. EVERY vote for every person that was cast was still valid. The party-list votes were not BUT the people who voted for those candidates got to vote again. Strangely (OK not so strange) the by-elections returned with 2 parties picking up more of those new MP's than PTP did. One party got 10, one got 7 (the dems) and PTP got 5.

Now about the desertion of the "Friends (of the banned politician) of Newin". Newin has always been the head of his own group no matter where that group landed. When PPP was disbanded he jumped ship and made BJT party a powerhouse that controlled who got the new coalition government formed. If you doubt he still has the support of his electorate --- wait and see Newin is the guy that Buriram follows and his neighbors tend to join him too. I expect BJT to be even larger after the next elections. The day that Thaksin could enlist (cough*) the loyalty of people like Newin or any of the other men with big political machines is over.

So ---- to sum up for KJP

The courts did their job when they disbanded PPP as PPP was GUILTY.

The courts did NOT make any statement about the rest of parliament.

It is NOT in the purview of the courts to make a "no-confidence vote" as you have claimed before. That falls into the purview of parliament and has not happened recently even though PTP considered it. (They didn't have the votes and knew it!)

The World Court won't be hearing any case about Abhisit as you have claimed. Again not their purview.

The media will do it's job and the press is fairly unemcumbered compared to the days Thaksin was in office. (Check out the political satire in notthenation if you haven't been here long enough to know what it was like back then!)

The Army will do what the army will do, but they have proven to the satisfaction of many Thais that they have no interest in running Thailand by having new elections about a year after the coup that got rid of an extra-constitutional caretaker government.

If you want to claim this terrorist led movement that call themselves the redshirts are wanting Democracy, then you need to look up the meaning of the word. Threatening to burn BKK down (and then commening to do so) is NOT Democratic. Even Veera when he turned himself in today managed to throw in a threat against Abhisit's family! Yes -- a movement led by men of great conviction to the cause of Democracy!

BTW ---- here is a good link about Newin ---- but it gives a good overview of history AND how politics work on a provincial level. It names the political bosses too ..... worth a read

http://www.th4u.com/newin_chidchob.htm

Put in a lot of decent work trying to explain something to a Thaksin stooge. lol

[jdinasia]

I thought it was useful info for people that actually might use it .... the fact that it was in a reply to KJP was just serendipity

[jdinasia]

Massacre defined as shooting 40+ people shot in the head and counting. More people being killed and we are hearing small fragments of information to confirm. Point is: more people are being shot.

Abhisit called for an election when it was safe to do so. No politician calls for an election he thinks he will lose. Abhisit got his position as a result of a military coup. He did not wait 4 years to get his position.

The majority of PMs voted the way they did as a result of changing political positions. Not he Political position they they were elected to hold.

Yes the majority of the PMs support Abhisit because they changed their political position. Not the one they were elected to hold.

I put to you, have an election now and see if you can make these same statements. I think not.

I know I will be suspended soon from these forum speaking this way.

Interestingly enough, telling lies is not against the TV forum rules. There would be a hel_l of a lot fewer posts here if it were. My guess is you will be suspended when you post inflammatory comments after another poster refutes one by one the points you try to make.

15) Not to use ThaiVisa.com to post any material which is knowingly or can be reasonably construed as false, inaccurate, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise in violation of any law. You also agree not to post negative comments criticizing the legal proceedings or judgments of any Thai court of law.

[SomTumTiger]

Before the poll was closed, because people could not refrain from making polictical comments. Polling ran at 73% support for the PM on TV. Would love to see a poll of Thais on that question.

[whybother]

If we can, let's be civil for a moment. 40+ people killed is just what we have heard. You said the army has been shot at. I will not dispute you on the definition of what "shoot" is but you have to agree soldiers are not dying and civilians are. I believe there are more civilians dying now. You can dispute that. That's ok. And yes the red shirts are causing damage, I do not dispute that as well. If you have been in Thailand any amount of time you understand these people are emotional people and they are a bit reactionary. Can a THAI leader not do better and not kill his own race? If he is a true leader can he not find a way?

There are so many journalists around. The dead all go to hospitals. It's the hospitals that are keeping the numbers. The reds aren't yelling about hundreds killed. At the moment I would believe the published numbers are correct.

The army are wearing helments and bullet proof jackets. They are protected compared to the protestors, in their shirts and jeans.

The protestors are in groups. Some of them are shooting marbles from sling shots, some of them are shooting guns, and some of them are throwing grenades. They are all shooting. They shouldn't be shooting anything at the army. The army are getting shot at with guns, so they shoot back. As a group, they are very dangerous. It's the army's job to stop these dangerous people. A protestor in a group where grenades or gunshots are coming from are not innocent.

Do you really think that Abhisit should have dissolved parliament because a group demanded it? Would you say the same if it was some other group and some other government?

[whiterussian]

Do you really think that Abhisit should have dissolved parliament because a group demanded it? Would you say the same if it was some other group and some other government?

no. not before. But now. YES. Botched the seige. Can only hope he is ousted asap, we have more than a year of trouble left just to keep this stooge in a bunker.

good article.. here: http://www.ft.com/cms/s/a4285126-6377-11df...amp;_i_referer=

but of course you junta apologists will say no-one outside of Thailand really understands the situation.. aung san suu kyi, amnesty, human rights watch, etc etc, *yawn*

The people are lovely, the beaches divine and the green chicken curry outstanding. The country’s apparently troubled political history of serial coups and quick-vanishing constitutions, say its many admirers, is not as bad as it appears. It masks an odd kind of stability that has made Thailand a favoured destination for foreign investment and foreign vacations alike. True, there is poverty and great disparity of wealth. Where in south-east Asia isn’t there? But the people appear pretty content with their lot, and at least no one is starving. Even the current prime minister, the Oxford-educated Abhisit Vejjajiva, seems like a thoroughly decent chap, and terribly dishy to boot.

Now take a cold shower. No one would begrudge the goodwill that many people have for the Land of Smiles. But warm and fuzzy sentiments towards Thailand are increasingly at odds with reality. How else to explain the relative equanimity with which the world has just witnessed Mr Abhisit’s government crush those calling for elections (of all things), shooting dead more than 60 civilians?

Edited May 20, 2010 by whiterussian

[monkfish]

Another eyewitness report from the temple

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/as...le-1977647.html

[animatic]

Excellent history lesson.

http://www.th4u.com/newin_chidchob.htm

As can be seen, Newin didn't traitorously leave PPP and brazenly go with the Dems.

He RETURNED to the Dems in coalition 15 years later. Because it was the smarter choice.

He was in the Dems Chuan Government back then as a Deputy.

Noting he is typical of regional hgeads he has been in what ever party proved advantageous to him and his constiutencey.

• MP Buriram, Solidarity Party (1986)

• PM's Office Secretary (1986, 1988)

• MP Buriram, Therd Thai Party (1988)

• Commerce Ministry Secretary (1991)

• MP Buriram, Samakkhi Tham Party (1992)

• MP Buriram, Chart Thai Party (1992, 1995)

• Deputy Finance Minister (1995)

• MP Buriram, Solidarity Party (1996)

• Deputy Agriculture and Coop. Minister (1997)

• MP Buriram, Chart Thai (2001)

• Deputy Commerce Minister (2002)

• Joined Thai Rak Thai Party (2004)

• Deputy Minister of Agriculture (2005)

• PM's Office Minister (2005)

• 5-year Political Ban (2007) PPP as ghost

• Faction Leader, Friends of Newin (2008) The Dems as Ghost.

He alternated between Chart Thai and Solidarity at one point

and then with the Dems as a coalition partner.

Most PTP don't scream about Newin's changing,

because they know they may need him at some time in the future.

Only clueless farang ideologues rant on about his betrayal.

He change parties after Thaksin, on the run, in Hong Kong at dinner

announced the sham divorce with Potjamin,

and then they handed PTP's riens to Chalerm, which was a loss of face for Newin,

which no doubt told Newin his leverage wouldn't be worth sticking around for in PTP.

Thaksin LOST Newin, by politically playing him poorly. Another of his many misteps,

and so Thaksin lost control of the government. Oh so Thai, but the way it works here.

The nameless faceless PPP care taker PM of December 2008 could have called for an election.

He didn't Thaksin misjudged hissupport, likely because he was stll 7 hours off time in London.

They could have worked harder or smarter to keep their coalition partners happy,

but they didn't. They take the full blame, and not the courts or the army.

The Cabinet prize was theirs to lose and they did.

Edited May 20, 2010 by animatic

[pornsasi]

Another eyewitness report from the temple

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/as...le-1977647.html

I read it . Really sad

[pornsasi]

Excellent history lesson.

http://www.th4u.com/newin_chidchob.htm

As can be seen, Newoin din't leave PPP and brazenly go with the Dems.

He RETURNED to the Dems 15 years later.

He was in the Dems Chuan Government back then as a Deputy.

Noting he is typical of regional hgeads he has been in what ever party proved advantageous to him and his constiutencey.

• MP Buriram, Solidarity Party (1986)

• PM's Office Secretary (1986, 1988)

• MP Buriram, Therd Thai Party (1988)

• Commerce Ministry Secretary (1991)

• MP Buriram, Samakkhi Tham Party (1992)

• MP Buriram, Chart Thai Party (1992, 1995)

• Deputy Finance Minister (1995)

• MP Buriram, Solidarity Party (1996)

• Deputy Agriculture and Coop. Minister (1997)

• MP Buriram, Chart Thai (2001)

• Deputy Commerce Minister (2002)

• Joined Thai Rak Thai Party (2004)

• Deputy Minister of Agriculture (2005)

• PM's Office Minister (2005)

• 5-year Political Ban (2007) PPP as ghost

• Faction Leader, Friends of Newin (2008) The Dems as Ghost.

He alternated between Chart Thai and Solidarity at one point

and then with the Dems as a coalition partner.

Most PTP don't scream about Newin's changing,

because they know they may need him at some time in the future.

Only clueless farang ideologues rant on about his betrayal.

He change parties after Thaksin, on the run, in Hong Kong at dinner

announced the sham divorce with Potjamin and then the handed PTP's

riens to Chalerm, which was a loss of face for Newin,

which no doubt told Newin his leverage wouldn't be worth sticking around for

Thaksin LOST NEWIN, by playing him poorly. Another of his many misteps,

and so Thaksin lost control of the government.

The nameless faceless PPP care taker PM of December 2008 could have called for an election

He didn't. They could have worked harder or smarter to keep their coalition partners happy,

but they didn't. They take the full blame,and not the courts of the army.

It was theirs to lose and they did.

Thaksin was not the PM when Newin switched side .

Anyway it's wasted time to talk about thai politics .

Its pre-written. Elections dont matter .

If PTP wins they will be removed , so best to have

a single party or have Prem PM for life

[opebo]

Of course I prefer Abhisit and the Ancien Régime quite profoundly compared to the alternative. After all, it is the survival in this unusual country of a form of government from a better time which makes it such an appealing place in which to live. Most of us come from democracies - much ballyhooed, but in practice just places of a million little dictators instead of one remote, disinterested potentate. I'll take the latter, if I can get it. Its why I'm here. Or rather, it allows for why I am here - the little dictators wouldn't.

I fear, alas, that the dear old regime may not be durable under the tide of these modern fascists. Like all good things, it is old and passing away. We can only hope we might have a few more troubled years before returning to our sad lands - after all the Tsar fell in 1917, not in 1905, however much the writing was on the wall.

[pornsasi]

Would love to see a poll of Thais on that question.

That be might be somewhat different from TV

[pornsasi]

Morality of it all

Power in Thailand belong to those who owns the guns .

It has always been , and i see no change forthcoming .

Good night folks

[whybother]

I'm having a problem getting a direct answer. You said "If he proceeds with a potential massacre then he loses." I asked "What massacre?"

It's seems to be you that is doing the diverting. I asked you twice, and you brought up completely different points.

"Abhisit did not wait for 4 years. A military coup did just fine."

It was Thaksin that didn't wait 4 years. He called a new election after just one year after previously winning a "majority". Then it was Thaksin trying to stay on beyond the constitutional time as care-taker PM that brought on the coup. The last election was in 2007. Currently the majority of elected MPs are supporting Abhisit. The reds need to wait until either the Democrats are disbanded, or the next election in December 2011.

Please, if anything I have stated is ludicrous, please explain where I have gone wrong.

Whybother I don't mean to direct this at you but you took up my conversation.

I believe the heartless farangs in this forum that condone the killing of thais do not understand thais. These particular farangs are here to hump the thai women and be about their way. I don't disagree with their approach but it leaves them with a rather distant perspective. Those of us that have built a relationship with a thai woman have developed an attachment with these people or an understanding that thai woman bangers don['t understand. Those of us has built an insight of how these people think, and speaking for myself I feel a bit protection as a result. I don't feel very good about thai people being killed for whatever reason. I think the thai people have an innocence that is difficult to describe but if you understand you know it is worth saving. I believe it is what keeps us here. So if it sounds like I take it personal that thai people are being killed you would be correct. I bitch louder than anyone about how they fleece us BUT....they are worth saving. Please do not preach the slaughter of the people you deem appropriate to kill. They are worth saving.

Why do you assume that posters that disagree with you are sexpats??? It's stupid, and it's irrelevant. Whether they are or not, does not make them support one side or the other.

That aside, I don't like seeing Thai's killed either. But the idea that the reds haven't killed people is a bit naive.

The army didn't go in to kill people on April 10. They went in with riot police that had shields and batons. The evidence of reds having guns and grenades is overwhelming. The army had no choice but to respond with force to protect themselves. If they went there with the aim to kill people, there would have been a lot more dead protestors. 20+ protestors dead, 6 soldiers dead. 600+ protestors injured, 200+ soldiers injured. That's with soldiers wearing helmets and bullet proof vests. The army didn't want more dead (protestors or soldiers) so they called off the operation.

On Wednesday, the army went in prepared, but there were still some hit by grenades. There were protestors shooting back at the army with guns. There were still only 14 (I think) killed. You can not say the protestors are innocent civilians. I am sure there are some there, but as a group, they have guns and grenades.

If protestors don't want to be killed, then why are they attacking the army with guns and grenades?

The protestors were given every possible opportunity to go home. They had made their point. The government had compromised several times. They were not going to get what they wanted. I was going to say 'through peaceful means', but their protests HAVE NOT been peaceful. Every step of the way, they pushed the government. Every step of the way, they were preaching violence. They stormed parliament. They stormed Thaicom. They stormed Chula hospital. They shot grenades at anti-red protestors and innocent by-standers at a train station. They shot an RPG at a hospital.

They have no one to blame for any deaths but themselves.

[whiterussian]

Another eyewitness report from the temple

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/as...le-1977647.html

Heavy stuff. Shame on you junta apologists. I would be surprised if Aphisit can visit the UK without being charged with human rights offenses.

This was near to the entrance of a Buddhist temple, a supposed oasis, a place of prayer. But we knew its sanctity had been fatally breached when the crack of rifles and the sound of bullets ricocheted close to the temple's souvenir shop.

One after the other, the injured were carried, rushed and dragged inside the temple compound. On bamboo mats, blankets anything to hand, they were carried in bloodied and screaming. Fearless Red Shirt volunteers did what they could. They used towels, bandages and plasters to try to treat ugly bullet wounds that needed surgery, not first aid kits.

...

That's when I – one of just a handful of journalists still present at the temple – was hit in the outer thigh by what appeared to be several pieces of shrapnel. They later transpired to be large pellets from a shotgun that buried themselves deep – perhaps three inches – into the flesh. Where had this shooting come from? Were soldiers now deliberately firing at journalists or did they simply not care?

Precisely which positions the firing was coming from was unclear and why the troops would be shooting so widely, with so little caution, was unclear. Was it coming from snipers or from the regular troops? It seems almost certain it was coming from the troops. And who within the chain of command was ordering troops to fire so recklessly, so close to so many people, the vast overwhelming majority of whom were unarmed, unthreatening and who as they had been asked by the authorities – had just left their place in the city centre.

Edited May 20, 2010 by whiterussian

[whybother]

Another eyewitness report from the temple

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/as...le-1977647.html

That's exactly the same eyewitness report that's been in the Australian papers.

Red Shirts were firing back with sling-slots, hand guns and petrol bombs.

Edited May 20, 2010 by whybother