Growing Gap Between Haves And Have-nots In Thailand

[thaihome]

The Issan folk are survivers and some good education would enhance their huge potential

No it wouldn't.

I educate Isaan folk (at least 70% from rural farm families), and watch them to go on and get Bachelor, Master and Doctoral degrees. They are still ostracized from the well-paying jobs in Bangkok and elsewhere in Central Thailand because of the color of their skin and lack of "pedigree." One of my good Isaan friends, a high-achieving graduate from Chulalongkorn Uni. cannot advance much beyond his entry level job in his field due to the social stigma of being from Isaan (and looking like it, too). He is surrounded by hi-so Thai-Chinese co-workers who all seem to be on a strange professional slippery slide which advances them only in the upward direction.

Such is the nature of a hierarchical society which has inherited its genes and world-and-life outlook from thousands of years of a peasant/feudal lord society structure.

An earlier post chided the Thai farmer for not banding into cooperatives to fight against the millers and middle-men who exploit them. They've tried and end up in an early grave. Hit-men hired by moneyed middle-men are alive and well in Thailand's northeast, and many others sponsored by Central Thai middle-men. No one dares stand up to them for fear of their lives and family's lives. Such is the currently still thriving feudal system in Thailand.

The social barriers are still too high to climb, even with advanced education or falling into new money (farang spouse, for example). Yes, they are stuck between a rock and a hard place. Hence, the source of much of the anger you are seeing lately. No it doesn't excuse the violence, but it does add perspective to it.

Your "education-cures-all-woes" western pipe-dream doesn't fly here. Sorry.

Your post would come as a surprise to the many Issan originated engineers I have worked with over several years. They are graduates of Khon Kean University and several other schools. Many have dark skin, yet have risen to high positions within PTT and several Thai Engineering and Construction companies.

Methinks that you maybe are trying a bit hard to make a problem where in reality, in other words, the real working world in Thailand, there actually is not one. Maybe the people you speak are making excuses and blaming others for their own failures.

My wife's nephew is a recent graduate of an upcountry tech school, he was immediatly hired by a major Thai owned company in Rayong at very good salary.

I think the problem is that people are fighting the development and resultant urbanization and parallel industrialization of agriculture that is going on.

There is no developed country in the world that has not had the problem of poverty in the rural areas as the best and brightest move to the urban areas. A subsistence farmer will never rise much above the poverty level, especially as the children that have ambition move on.

to the urban areas.

TH

Edited May 20, 2010 by thaihome

[mizzi39]

The Issan folk are survivers and some good education would enhance their huge potential

No it wouldn't.

I educate Isaan folk (at least 70% from rural farm families), and watch them to go on and get Bachelor, Master and Doctoral degrees. They are still ostracized from the well-paying jobs in Bangkok and elsewhere in Central Thailand because of the color of their skin and lack of "pedigree." One of my good Isaan friends, a high-achieving graduate from Chulalongkorn Uni. cannot advance much beyond his entry level job in his field due to the social stigma of being from Isaan (and looking like it, too). He is surrounded by hi-so Thai-Chinese co-workers who all seem to be on a strange professional slippery slide which advances them only in the upward direction.

Such is the nature of a hierarchical society which has inherited its genes and world-and-life outlook from thousands of years of a peasant/feudal lord society structure.

An earlier post chided the Thai farmer for not banding into cooperatives to fight against the millers and middle-men who exploit them. They've tried and end up in an early grave. Hit-men hired by moneyed middle-men are alive and well in Thailand's northeast, and many others sponsored by Central Thai middle-men. No one dares stand up to them for fear of their lives and family's lives. Such is the currently still thriving feudal system in Thailand.

The social barriers are still too high to climb, even with advanced education or falling into new money (farang spouse, for example). Yes, they are stuck between a rock and a hard place. Hence, the source of much of the anger you are seeing lately. No it doesn't excuse the violence, but it does add perspective to it.

Your "education-cures-all-woes" western pipe-dream doesn't fly here. Sorry.

I totally agree. I educate "Issan folk" as well (please keep in mind that many of the rural poor do not see "colors"). Like it or not there is a caste system that is alive and well in LOS.The "haves" keep prospering while the "have nots" continue to be exploited by the "haves"

[Heng]

A good start would be for the poor masses to stop shelling out 100-300 billion Baht a year on the lottery (legal and illegal). I don't think you need much schooling to figure out that X million to one, 1000 to 1, and 100 to 1 odds aren't that good. Probably more difficult to estimate what they cost themselves, in XX billions per year in booze and tobacco since those are more widely used outside of the poor and uneducated demographic as well.

Okay, enough practical advice that they can get started on today, let's get back to dramatic pie in the sky debates that no one even knows where/when/how to get started.

Edited May 20, 2010 by Heng

[SeanMoran]

A good start would be for the poor masses to stop shelling out 100-300 billion Baht a year on the lottery (legal and illegal). I don't think you need much schooling to figure out that X million to one, 1000 to 1, and 100 to 1 odds aren't that good. Probably more difficult to estimate what they cost themselves, in XX billions per year in booze and tobacco since those are more widely used outside of the poor and uneducated demographic as well.

Okay, enough practical advice that they can get started on today, let's get back to dramatic pie in the sky debates that no one even knows where/when/how to get started.

Would you not agree that the desire for money (greed) of the poor man has more legitimacy than that of the rich man, given factors that stimulate those desires in the day-to-day life of the former, but not the latter?

[Heng]

A good start would be for the poor masses to stop shelling out 100-300 billion Baht a year on the lottery (legal and illegal). I don't think you need much schooling to figure out that X million to one, 1000 to 1, and 100 to 1 odds aren't that good. Probably more difficult to estimate what they cost themselves, in XX billions per year in booze and tobacco since those are more widely used outside of the poor and uneducated demographic as well.

Okay, enough practical advice that they can get started on today, let's get back to dramatic pie in the sky debates that no one even knows where/when/how to get started.

Would you not agree that the desire for money (greed) of the poor man has more legitimacy than that of the rich man, given factors that stimulate those desires in the day-to-day life of the former, but not the latter?

I suppose your take is that the poor have more of a right to be greedy and at the same time should be sometimes, always, or at least more often excused from ignoring basic statistics, common sense, and simple math?

p.s. in my experience, most poor folks understand the concept of 'odds' perfectly well (it's not like it's terribly complicated), they just choose to believe that dreams, supernatural 'signs,' monks, fortune tellers, tree stumps, spirit houses, etc. somehow override these odds.

Edited May 20, 2010 by Heng

[SeanMoran]

A good start would be for the poor masses to stop shelling out 100-300 billion Baht a year on the lottery (legal and illegal). I don't think you need much schooling to figure out that X million to one, 1000 to 1, and 100 to 1 odds aren't that good. Probably more difficult to estimate what they cost themselves, in XX billions per year in booze and tobacco since those are more widely used outside of the poor and uneducated demographic as well.

Okay, enough practical advice that they can get started on today, let's get back to dramatic pie in the sky debates that no one even knows where/when/how to get started.

Would you not agree that the desire for money (greed) of the poor man has more legitimacy than that of the rich man, given factors that stimulate those desires in the day-to-day life of the former, but not the latter?

I suppose your take is that the poor have more of a right to be greedy and at the same time should be sometimes, always, or at least more often excused from ignoring basic statistics, common sense, and simple math?

Up until the part where you mention "and at the same time ..." that's precisely my take, bearing in mind that you did ask for pie-in-the-sky, or I could possibly have phrased it more subtly.

Essentially, there's a lot more reason to buy lottery tickets when you're broke than when you're rich, like there's not much point in having a dip in the ondeck swimming pool of a sinking liner.

[AndyCapps]

Its not just Thailand, although they seem more militant, would it be the same if they did not have a backer shelling out money???

[Heng]

Essentially, there's a lot more reason to buy lottery tickets when you're broke than when you're rich, like there's not much point in having a dip in the on deck swimming pool of a sinking liner.

And my point is that there is no reason good enough to ignore what you don't need to go to school to learn (bearing in mind that folks are saying that going to school will somehow fix a lot of underlying flaws that these people have). I gambled, drank, and enjoyed all sorts of vices that I understood and was financially prepared for the downsides of from the time I had a few hundred $ in my pocket to now when I have substantially more.

No reason for the poor to have a different set of rules when we're all on the same uneven playing field.

[TheItaliann]

I have no experience with regards to employment in Thailand but if one company is hiring the best person around and the other is hiring their cousin, the laws of survival of the fittest will come into play. The latter might work in the entertainment biz (although you are still making less money because you are producing a substandard product) when you have a total monopoly but how could it possibly work in engineering, especially considering how much work is done behind the scenes (not in view of the customer)?

Edited May 20, 2010 by TheItaliann

[SeanMoran]

And my point is that there is no reason good enough to ignore what you don't need to go to school to learn (bearing in mind that folks are saying that going to school will somehow fix a lot of underlying flaws that these people have). I gambled, drank, and enjoyed all sorts of vices that I understood and was financially prepared for the downsides of from the time I had a few hundred $ in my pocket to now when I have substantially more.

No reason for the poor to have a different set of rules when we're all on the same uneven playing field.

Precisely!

If booze and smokes and gambling are good for the golden goose, then they're good for the gilded gander!

[Heng]

I have no experience with regards to employment in Thailand but if one company is hiring the best person around and the other is hiring their cousin, the laws of survival of the fittest will come into play. The latter might work in the entertainment biz (although you are still making less money because you are producing a substandard product) when you have a total monopoly but how could it possibly work in engineering, especially considering how much work is done behind the scenes (not in view of the customer)?

I think that most of the 'give the poor a few million more chances' crowd would say that the problem is that a good majority of "idiot" cousins are somehow getting into Ivy League schools, and at the very least getting into no name schools abroad that are leaps and bounds above what the poor have at their disposal. Then these idiots somehow get years and years of experience working for multinational firms and when they are prepared to morph into captains of industry, the top cats from the local technical colleges are knee deep in debt and are completely unconnected anyway.

Basically the problem is they can't get into the NBA because they aren't tall enough, can't jump high enough or make enough of their shots. It's IMO inconsequential that they happen to be unrelated to the club owners as well.

[Heng]

And my point is that there is no reason good enough to ignore what you don't need to go to school to learn (bearing in mind that folks are saying that going to school will somehow fix a lot of underlying flaws that these people have). I gambled, drank, and enjoyed all sorts of vices that I understood and was financially prepared for the downsides of from the time I had a few hundred $ in my pocket to now when I have substantially more.

No reason for the poor to have a different set of rules when we're all on the same uneven playing field.

Precisely!

If booze and smokes and gambling are good for the golden goose, then they're good for the gilded gander!

Exactly, and they simply need to come to terms with what the 'fun stuff' often results in when you aren't financially prepared for it. Being poor and possibly blaming others for one's own lack of common sense.

[toonsai]

I posted my opinion earlier today on my FB

Deep causes of Thailand crisis

May 20, 2010

Maybe it is too early to analyze the situation as it is probably still the time of emotion. But I would like to share with you my “helicopter view” opinion about the root causes on actual events. Please really feel free to share with me your opinion.

Overall, I am not really surprised with what happened and this outburst of violence.

Besides the well understandable emotion, I am quite amazed of the hatred reactions against the reds as a group. Let’s forget about the reds being a political party; they are gone. Behind this, millions of poor and innocent rural people will probably suffer because red is associated to them. They once thought that their problems could be addressed. But their leaders definitely brought discredit on a whole part of Thai people.

Now everybody hates the reds, with reasons. But if nothing is done, the poor and rurals will have no other alternative than to return to their labor and silence. This would be quite unfair to them. I am reading tons of reactions from Thai people. Nobody wants war and violence. We all condemn what happened yesterday; we all condemn the irresponsible attitude of the red leaders, the unnecessary victims, the fires and looting. Everybody calls for return of peace, return of this beautiful country; return of the land of smiles. Fine. But nobody takes time to deeply analyze the situation and the root causes of these troubles.

I am not talking about the now well known red leaders that ignite the violence. They must be condemned, no doubt about that. Thaksin will probably never come back to Thailand, maybe not even dead. We can discuss and argue about the red leaders that refused the proposed road map from the Prime Minister Abhisit. It was a real chance to move forward and find a solution. But it was only a short term solution to very deep issue: Thailand recurrent and abyssal social divides.

That is exactly where I see the root cause of the problems. The real drama in the Thai Society is its recurrent and abyssal social divides into 2 unbalanced classes: the rural and poors versus the richs from the city. A feudal society that has been working for decades, always soften by the venerated King, guarantor of Thailand stability.

Besides the yellow/red colors, the vast majority of reds expressed legitimate demands. At the beginning their demands were linked to the ex-Prime Minister Thaksin, now in exile. The patronage of Thaksin slowly becomes troublesome. He obviously financed the reds but not for the purpose of finding solution to the country problems. No, in fact just for his own personal megalomania. Thaksin is a crook. But to his credit (maybe this only one), somehow he was the first prime minister to HEAR and LISTEN what 90% of the poor and rural has to say. He gave them hope and that is what made his popularity. On the other sides, all other politicians are just and only focused on the Bangkok egocentric middle classes.

This feudal system will not last forever and might come to an end very soon. The so called elites need to open their eyes and understand the legitimate demands from the rurals who are in their vast majority peaceful and not violent. I believe most of them, while red at heart, are destroyed and ashamed by what happened.

I read a lot of things about Democracy. I personally think it is a western approach that is not necessarily transposable in Thailand at the moment. How do you want to have elections in a country where the reds will mathematically will as they represent the vast majority of the population? The rural/poor will win and then the city elites will overturn the government elected. Effectively Thailand has been shaken by Coup d'Etat on a very regular basis for the last 20-30 years. Of course it is not that simple. Besides the social cleavage, there is also the always questionable involvement of the Army. No, for me, the real problem is not about Democracy.

A new election will not solve anything unless the deep root causes are properly addressed.

I still see some hope in all these events

First, I see Mr. Abhisit as a real prime minister. I am not a yellow supporter but i made my own opinion about Abhisit actions over the time. During this entire crisis and until now, he managed to keep the Army and the Yellow at distance. He could have asked support from the yellows (who put him in power after the latest Coup). But he did not. The Army also did not interfere so far. Abhisit always insisted that as a prime minister he is the chief of the Army. Some will argue that Abhisit could not be in control and he was a kind of puppet. I do not share this opinion, maybe i am naive... Before troubles started, Abhisit also started to address some the poor and rural problems. These measures were not advertised and the front page was not surprisingly made by the problems.

I believe Abhisit truly understands the root cause of the problems. I do not see him as yellow or red. I see him as ORANGE, being able to think for all Thai people. If he can successfully bring peace back to the country, he will need to explain and educate. He will need to listen what the rurals have to say. He is a chance to be another guarantor of Thailand stability. I really hope that people will not destroy this unique opportunity.

The risk of a civil war is real, if not already a civil war. To some extend, "Revolution" might also be an appropriate word. It can be a peaceful Revolution. It will depend on how the politics will effectively address the real problems.

I know what you might think that my above statement is another "farang" (foreigner) point of view. Some will think or say that i do not understand anything to Thailand and Thai people. Ok fair enough. But still i want to share my views and open a discussion. Based on what i see, i doubt that many people will react. I mean a constructive debate, an exchange of argued ideas about the root causes of all the actual problems; not the superficial, biased or emotional criticism.

Again, we all want peace back in Thailand. People are angry, sad, cry. But do people just want the return of a superficial peace, leaving the recurrent problems not addressed. Or will people understand the critical and painful efforts that need to be done to step back and take time to seriously think about what is wrong. This will be the price for a sustainable peace, leading to a true harmony between all Thai people.

Thank you for taking the time to read this.

[gregb]

The Issan folk are survivers and some good education would enhance their huge potential

No it wouldn't.

I educate Isaan folk (at least 70% from rural farm families), and watch them to go on and get Bachelor, Master and Doctoral degrees. They are still ostracized from the well-paying jobs in Bangkok and elsewhere in Central Thailand because of the color of their skin and lack of "pedigree." One of my good Isaan friends, a high-achieving graduate from Chulalongkorn Uni. cannot advance much beyond his entry level job in his field due to the social stigma of being from Isaan (and looking like it, too). He is surrounded by hi-so Thai-Chinese co-workers who all seem to be on a strange professional slippery slide which advances them only in the upward direction.

Such is the nature of a hierarchical society which has inherited its genes and world-and-life outlook from thousands of years of a peasant/feudal lord society structure.

An earlier post chided the Thai farmer for not banding into cooperatives to fight against the millers and middle-men who exploit them. They've tried and end up in an early grave. Hit-men hired by moneyed middle-men are alive and well in Thailand's northeast, and many others sponsored by Central Thai middle-men. No one dares stand up to them for fear of their lives and family's lives. Such is the currently still thriving feudal system in Thailand.

The social barriers are still too high to climb, even with advanced education or falling into new money (farang spouse, for example). Yes, they are stuck between a rock and a hard place. Hence, the source of much of the anger you are seeing lately. No it doesn't excuse the violence, but it does add perspective to it.

Your "education-cures-all-woes" western pipe-dream doesn't fly here. Sorry.

While I do not doubt your story, this is an over generalization.

I have worked in 2 companies where I have been responsible for hiring new engineers, and I know several people who are in the same position. Believe me, *ANY* qualified engineer, be he from Issan or straight off the boat from Beijing, will be treated absolutely similarly.

I know there are places in Thailand where nepotism is alive and well, and discrimination exists in any country, but there are also dozens of industries which are gauged solely on the individual's abilities.

Nobody is saying that having dark skin in a country where every 3rd commercial is an ad for a skin whitening cream is not a handicap in certain jobs, but to imply that someone can not overcome this by being extremely good at what they do is also not fair.

Give it time. Thailand is changing. It may take another generation or 2, but the lines are already blurring. In the mean time, keep educating the people, and try and train some more qualified engineers who know how to think. Believe me, they will have no problem finding extremely well paying jobs.

[citizen33]

I educate Isaan folk (at least 70% from rural farm families), and watch them to go on and get Bachelor, Master and Doctoral degrees. They are still ostracized from the well-paying jobs in Bangkok and elsewhere in Central Thailand because of the color of their skin and lack of "pedigree." One of my good Isaan friends, a high-achieving graduate from Chulalongkorn Uni. cannot advance much beyond his entry level job in his field due to the social stigma of being from Isaan (and looking like i too). He is surrounded by hi-so Thai-Chinese co-workers who all seem to be on a strange professional slippery slide which advances them only in the upward direction.

Toptuan's post provides an interesting talking point but, although the general thrust of his argument may be correct, what interests me are the exceptions and how they progress. For example, quite a few of the high officials in the Ministry of Public Health (all medical doctors) originate from Isaan, and this is also true of some Deans of University Faculties known to me. Taking an example near home, a former President of MSU from a prominent local family moved on to become Secretary General of the Commission for Higher Education. Perhaps social class can mediate the significance of ethicity?

Chula may be a different ball game. Last time I was there a senior member of Faculty was telling me that he had managed to get a flu vaccination because of his family's connection to the Royal household, something that seemed to attract great admiration from other staff in the room

[pj123]

The Issan folk are survivers and some good education would enhance their huge potential

No it wouldn't.

I educate Isaan folk (at least 70% from rural farm families), and watch them to go on and get Bachelor, Master and Doctoral degrees. They are still ostracized from the well-paying jobs in Bangkok and elsewhere in Central Thailand because of the color of their skin and lack of "pedigree." One of my good Isaan friends, a high-achieving graduate from Chulalongkorn Uni. cannot advance much beyond his entry level job in his field due to the social stigma of being from Isaan (and looking like it, too). He is surrounded by hi-so Thai-Chinese co-workers who all seem to be on a strange professional slippery slide which advances them only in the upward direction.

Such is the nature of a hierarchical society which has inherited its genes and world-and-life outlook from thousands of years of a peasant/feudal lord society structure.

An earlier post chided the Thai farmer for not banding into cooperatives to fight against the millers and middle-men who exploit them. They've tried and end up in an early grave. Hit-men hired by moneyed middle-men are alive and well in Thailand's northeast, and many others sponsored by Central Thai middle-men. No one dares stand up to them for fear of their lives and family's lives. Such is the currently still thriving feudal system in Thailand.

The social barriers are still too high to climb, even with advanced education or falling into new money (farang spouse, for example). Yes, they are stuck between a rock and a hard place. Hence, the source of much of the anger you are seeing lately. No it doesn't excuse the violence, but it does add perspective to it.

Your "education-cures-all-woes" western pipe-dream doesn't fly here. Sorry.

Excellent post Toptuan.

Agree. There is a form of cultural apartheid that restricts advancement for so many people.

On the issue of what happens when rural communities organise themselves to improve their lives and their environment, have a look at this list of murdered Thai environmentalists: http://www.article2.org/mainfile.php/0402/188/

These deaths were 10 years ago but the lessons have not been forgotten. The result is that those honest people who could provide leadership in their communities either keep their heads down or move away.

[StreetCowboy]

I think that there are also barriers to mobility around the country that hinder the free movement of labour, and therefore hold people back; for example, only being able to vote in your home province.

Someone that knows something about such barriers may wish to expand on this... but I put it to you that the Isaanites with the greatest breadth of vision, through having travelled beyond their parishonal boundaries, are hindered from voting by the distance, time, and effort required to return home; effectively gerry-mandering in favour of those that prey on ignorance and prejudice

SC