For US, A Delicate Task In Thai Upheaval

[dcutman]

The US has lost their creditibility, so who cares? With the USA bombing of Iraq (remember, it was because of Weapons of Mass Destruction, now according to Fox News it is because of the terrorists!) which has ruined the infrastructure and stability of Iraq (true, it was no picnic under Sadam but according to the Iraqi's their life style is worse off today); and with their negligence of their financial institutions (banks and wall street) taking advantage of "loop holes" in order to make profit, ...and with China being the growing economic machine in this region, I don't think the USA has as much influence any more. (Maybe the old Vietnam Vets reading this can set me straight)

PS-- The next time the US miltarty comea to Thailand to do their annual "War Games" with the Thai military, I hope they skip the out dated war games and teach the army how to deal with mobs of violent people, terrorists, and thugs in demonstrations. I think this would be more beneficial.

Yep bash the U.S.

The way I see it is there is not a country on this planet that has any credability at all. The brits 0 all the EU they are in negative credability range. Nobody can say, point fingers or place blame on the economic situation. Everybody is dirty on this one.

Lets not forget, for those that love to bring up Iraq and Afganistan. That there are a lot of countries there fighting. Including The Brits and most EU countries and Aussi's. Oh yes for you Thais, you where there too.

Lets not forget whos flag Europe was hiding behind during the cold war with the USSR. Oh yes it was the American flag. Same for you Asian countries whos flag have you hiding behind from the same threat of spreading Comunism during the same period.

How easy it is to forget

I cant Imagine what the words would have been in Thailand after the psunami in 2004 if the U.S. was not the front runner on help. I think it was 5+ billion dolllars.

So Bring on the U.S. bashing. Who cares about you?

[dcutman]

Why does the US feel the need to meddle with politics in every country on the planet? It's not like they do it in an even-handed way, its purely to push their own interests. Tends to blow up in their face too.

Allow me to offer a completely self-serving opinion...

Where did you get that the U.S. wanted anthying to do with this crazy sh&%t Thailand has going. If the thais cannot controle anything in there own country why do you think the U.S. or any one else really cares what Thailand is doing. \

Thailand has been a circus ride for to many years now. The entire country looks like a joke to the world.

[rabo]

Oh dear. Another misinformed American!

The Russians won the war in Europe with help from Bletchley Park. You Americans arrived late and with the UK footing the bill. Please spare us the history lessons.

As far as Vietnam is concerned, surely the lesson is to do the history first. The locals just wanted their country back. Communism was a secondary issue.

Anyway, well done creating Pattaya!

Oh dear. Another misinformed World Citizen!

The Russians won the eastern front in Europe. In terms of modern military power planes/ships/tanks, the Russians had little to throw at the Germans except people, they fought hard with massive human casualties.

The Americans began throwing money and weapons at the war from the beginning and joined in after Pearl Harbor. They "helped" win two wars.

As for Vietnam, you need to get history. Vietnam was never a single unified nation. Both the north and south were toppled by the rebellious Tay Son brothers, helped by? Siam ! , which lead to french colonization.

Nice snide remark about Pattaya, useful in the absence of fact.

Edited May 23, 2010 by rabo

[Spee]

The US has been hijacked by the military/industrial/financial/pharmaceutical/energy complex.

All true but I modified your post just a bit. Good post.

Thank you, your addition is duly noted and acknowledged as fact,

"Hijacked" by the "military/industrial/financial/pharmaceutical/energy" complex?

You boyz have clearly been drinking too much of somebody's ya ba koolaid.

Methinks if you went through a withdrawal program and then did some arithmetic after sobering up, you would find that your so-called "military/industrial/financial/pharmaceutical/energy complex" constitutes about 99.99% of the global economy, and the US is hardly the only player.

Edited May 23, 2010 by Spee

[Publicus]

The US has lost their creditibility, so who cares? With the USA bombing of Iraq (remember, it was because of Weapons of Mass Destruction, now according to Fox News it is because of the terrorists!) which has ruined the infrastructure and stability of Iraq (true, it was no picnic under Sadam but according to the Iraqi's their life style is worse off today); and with their negligence of their financial institutions (banks and wall street) taking advantage of "loop holes" in order to make profit, ...and with China being the growing economic machine in this region, I don't think the USA has as much influence any more. (Maybe the old Vietnam Vets reading this can set me straight)

PS-- The next time the US miltarty comea to Thailand to do their annual "War Games" with the Thai military, I hope they skip the out dated war games and teach the army how to deal with mobs of violent people, terrorists, and thugs in demonstrations. I think this would be more beneficial.

Another intellectually and culturally cliched rant.

The economy of California with 35 million people is larger quantitatively and is in another dimension qualitatively to that of the People's Republic of China with its 1.6 billion sheeple and in the US California is considered to be a screwed up state. California doesn't censor Google as the PRC now does, a serious matter of total censorship of Google which is upsetting young people in the PRC both at university and among the urban coastal yuppies.

The present in Thailand is the immediate future of the PRC as half the population of either country lives on less than USD $2 a day. In the PRC there already is sentiment to organize a rural political party to compete against the Communist Party of China and its red diaper 'Princeling' leadership present and future which is from the developing urban centers only. Sound familiar?

It's been pointed out the US military does train the Thai military in civil disorder but only minimally and for obviously good reason. Rather, the government for a long time has needed put aside pride/face to invite police from Western democracies to train the Thai police to do the job of the police in situations of civil disorder but then....TiT and the BiB are in the words of the New York Times, written pre-Thaksin, the "largest criminal organization in Thailand."

(And let's not rehash the National Guard of each state of the United States, a state militia which is under the command the the elected governor of each state and available for natural disasters or certain instances of civil disorder.)

Edited May 23, 2010 by Publicus

[scotbeve]

The United States still has great abilities in mediation and arbitration. To dismiss this based upon what occurred in the Bush years only shows a rather juvenile world view.

An offer to mediate BEHIND THE SCENES is hardly meddling.

DOS employs thousands of career diplomats, then there are other quasi government players as well.

The huge reason that America is so disliked by Europeans is that it is an energetic nation that sees itself, its role as the sole superpower as a source for stability and good in the world. Europe and Europeans - nothing more than a talking shop. This has been the case since the first great war.

The US has been hijacked by the military industrial complex. This explains Vietnam and the Bush years. There is little or nothing individuals can do to stop the machine, especially when half the population believes the lies it is fed. bad on us.

But to think that the US does not have the ability to assist, to mediate at some level - well, that's European thinking.

Bangkokburning,

Well said dude. I've become complacent to replying or defending the ever-present America bashing on TV and other sites. Many folks seem to forget that America, whether they like it or not has been ASKED by their very own governments to assist in their countries problems. Once again, it is a crime that powerful lobbyists such as the NRA (National Rifle Assoc.) have a very big presence / influence in Washington. Thailand, seperate the ever-present military from politics now and work on the constructive dialogue in lieu of destructive.

[dttk0009]

deleted

Edited May 23, 2010 by dttk0009

[cdnvic]

One combative post deleted.

[dhrobertson]

I am an American and I think it is very cute that so many people bad-mouth my country. I have recently watched the history channel and read some books and wonder, what language would the detractors of the US be speaking if the US had not gone to war during WWII. England, France, and Italy on the short list would be speaking German. The Aussies would probably be speaking Japanese. Bad-mouth us all you want but without us, you would have a different native language.

Yes, countries make mistakes and not just the US. The reasons for the US being in Thailand years ago are on record. Whether it was right or wrong, we helped open this country up to major tourism, assisted in the development of the middle class and in the end, helped foster nationalism when the war was over as we were asked to leave.

All the countries having embassies in Thailand have a major stake in insuring that they assist Thailand to resolve the past events. All the countries should assist, not lay blame for these past events.

Oh dear. Another misinformed American!

The Russians won the war in Europe with help from Bletchley Park. You Americans arrived late and with the UK footing the bill. Please spare us the history lessons.

As far as Vietnam is concerned, surely the lesson is to do the history first. The locals just wanted their country back. Communism was a secondary issue.

Anyway, well done creating Pattaya!

As an American - I have never (personally) been groping for gratitude in regard to the Great War. I am not a student of such ancient History, but I am aware it took a great deal of pressure from Britain to get us on board. We were hardly a willing partner on the European front. It was in fact Russia that suffered hugely and arguably "won" the war - they had little choice.

If in fact the UK did "foot the bill" it was because the UK was quite fine with that. You state it as though the US wanted to be in the thick of it but somehow lacked the resources. The opposite could only be stated as truth. Your nation at the end of the war was broken and bedraggled.

Got chocolate?

The US had played a major role in the stability of Thailand which you apparently no little of. It worked actively with the Thai government to root out and destroy its Communist insurgency, it built the roads you may drive on today. It built huge amounts of infrastructure in Thailand. It provided stability to a nation that was a bulwark against the "Communist" Pathet Lao and Khmer Rouge and Red Vietnamese elements in SEA.

Every country has a right to its own self determination, but I think we can look back on History and see that America was correct - that the governments of Lao, Cambodia and Vietnam are nothing short of tragedy. The war was misguided and paranoid - It wasn't our fight.

But to diminish what the US did in fact accomplish in Indochina (which it inherited from the French) and reduce it to some flippant remark about Pattaya - where you no doubt reside when you can escape your council flat is pathetic.

Sun never sets?

A century ago mate. A century ago.

Ooh! Touchy!

My comments were intended to wind you up and appear to have suceeded! Ha!

The "Great War" is the name widely applied to WW1 not WW2. In WW2, the Americans were very late joining the fight as usual. The British knew about Pearl Harbour in advance but had to withold the information in order to get the USA on board. Ultimately, it was of course the American industrial machine that proved unstoppable. The Russians lost 27M and the British about 0.25M, I do not know about American losses. The "lend/lease" program resulted in the British having a huge war debt which took 50 years to pay off and left the country broke.

The American paranoia about communism was massively over played (reds under the bed and all that). In my view American imperialism in SEA did not do anyone much good. Thanks for the nice roads in the NE though!

Actually it is a pity Thailand was never run by the British. If they had, they would certainly have a working civil service, a proper police force and real railway system. Just ask the Indians.

My personal opinion of Pattaya is that it is quite ghastly.

As for the personal insults - water off a ducks back!

For the record, I have a succesful engineering business and have lived here for 10 years.

Oh, yes. And finally, the sun has indeed set on the British Empire. You Americans are coming to end of your period too. Well done at getting a health service at last!

You might consider brushing up your Cantonese for the next lot!

Edited May 23, 2010 by dhrobertson

[BobbyMoore]

^^ Buy this gentleman a well deserved tipple or two.

[lannarebirth]

The US has been hijacked by the military/industrial/financial/pharmaceutical/energy complex.

All true but I modified your post just a bit. Good post.

Thank you, your addition is duly noted and acknowledged as fact,

"Hijacked" by the "military/industrial/financial/pharmaceutical/energy" complex?

You boyz have clearly been drinking too much of somebody's ya ba koolaid.

Methinks if you went through a withdrawal program and then did some arithmetic after sobering up, you would find that your so-called "military/industrial/financial/pharmaceutical/energy complex" constitutes about 99.99% of the global economy, and the US is hardly the only player.

I can't disagree with your final statement, but that doesn't make it any less detrimental to global stability or more enriching to the lives of the world's inhabitants. On the contrary. OK, back to topic.

[Publicus]

I am an American and I think it is very cute that so many people bad-mouth my country. I have recently watched the history channel and read some books and wonder, what language would the detractors of the US be speaking if the US had not gone to war during WWII. England, France, and Italy on the short list would be speaking German. The Aussies would probably be speaking Japanese. Bad-mouth us all you want but without us, you would have a different native language.

Yes, countries make mistakes and not just the US. The reasons for the US being in Thailand years ago are on record. Whether it was right or wrong, we helped open this country up to major tourism, assisted in the development of the middle class and in the end, helped foster nationalism when the war was over as we were asked to leave.

All the countries having embassies in Thailand have a major stake in insuring that they assist Thailand to resolve the past events. All the countries should assist, not lay blame for these past events.

Oh dear. Another misinformed American!

The Russians won the war in Europe with help from Bletchley Park. You Americans arrived late and with the UK footing the bill. Please spare us the history lessons.

As far as Vietnam is concerned, surely the lesson is to do the history first. The locals just wanted their country back. Communism was a secondary issue.

Anyway, well done creating Pattaya!

A well done post.

[bangkokburning]

This is a trite thread that is just about bashing America. Let's move on.

[dhrobertson]

This is a trite thread that is just about bashing America. Let's move on.

For crying out loud.

I was just teasing.

I love America. I have lived in Austin TX, Los Gatos CA and Cambridge MA. Great people!

Stop being so sensitive!

I agree, let's move on.

Any Aussies out there?

[dhrobertson]

Splendid!

[Toany]

I think we should follow the USA example of how to deal with terrorists.

Lock the red terrorists up in a camp without any trial and torture them.

Very unlikely to happen in Thailand. They will be treated fairly and prosecuted through the legal system.

[cdnvic]

Off topic posts removed along with flames.

[animatic]

Seems all are taking the piss tonight and those that aren't are in propaganda mode.

Guess go watch the DVD of of Mock The Week. Maybe some rational thought

will make the TVF headache go away.

[Spee]

Anyway, well done creating Pattaya!

Wasn't this urban myth blown out of the water in an earlier thread?

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/America-Crea...ya-t358302.html

One less angle of attack for the bash-America cheap shot artists.

[NovaBlue05]

Off topic posts removed along with flames.

surprised there were any left...

[Publicus]

This is a trite thread that is just about bashing America. Let's move on.

For crying out loud.

I was just teasing.

I love America. I have lived in Austin TX, Los Gatos CA and Cambridge MA. Great people!

Stop being so sensitive!

I agree, let's move on.

Any Aussies out there?

Teasing? 

Bait n' switch. 

Superficial and transparently bogus, disingenuous, insincere.

Busted! 

(Fortunately for you, your self-exposing bait n' switch post was deleted. All we see now is your attempt to redirect your deleted self-revealing posts to a different nationality. Cambridge MA is a couple of dozen miles from my neck of the woods, so I'd be interested anytime in any claims you make about people, places and things there. If it's not one nationality it's another, so I see.)

 

[bangkokburning]

The American Revolutionary War blah blah

1812 blah blah

Just kidding...in a rub, we are best of mates. Just ask Tony.

:-))

[raro]

just to clarify this: We are watching, and yes, discussion of moderation is not allowed in the open forum and neither is bashing of any nationality.

If you come across such or other offenses kindly use the report button. It helps us to spot the offenders as we cannot be everywhere all the time.

And now please back on topic, thanks!

[bangkokburning]

I might add that some newer posters may be interested to know that during the past several months there are many new TV members who post and are from the United States. Those of us who for some time have battled uphill in small company against endemic US bashing at TV have noticed this and are welcoming of the seeming flood of posts which take the pathological US haters to task, often causing the bashers to bash less often and less intensely - indeed causing the bashers to think twice before they make their compulsive and mindless anti-US posts. A small comfort but a comfort none the less (irony and eccentric foreign cultural idiosyncratic 'humour' not withstanding ) .

I am an American who happens to be back in the US for the next few weeks; but don't look to me for comfort - I seek truth whatever flag it flies over. I am not uncomfortable with criticism as long as it is analytical and reasoned. The W years...we have a great deal to account for and a great deal of trust to win back.

[robert1001]

I saw Hillary, The US Secretary of state, was wearing a Red dress while talking about Thailand.

Obviously, Thailand must take note of foreign governments. The French have Thaksan visiting in Paris so France is making its view clear. The UK has repeatedly called for UN run elections here in Thailand but the Regime has said no.

Hey Brits.

That idiot terrorist want to be who is on video calling for the burning of the Central World, is making the Thais hate you Brits.

Yanks are laughing you know. You sure shoveled a load at the Yanks the last 10 years and now you are going to get yours.

Some of you deserve it but most of you do not.

Sorry about the nuts who will trash you now because of the Fire Starter video star.

Did you defend the Yanks though this past decade?

NO

So do not expect the Yanks to defend you because you really were jerks to the Yanks over the last decade and revenge with a laugh is here.

[Publicus]

I might add that some newer posters may be interested to know that during the past several months there are many new TV members who post and are from the United States. Those of us who for some time have battled uphill in small company against endemic US bashing at TV have noticed this and are welcoming of the seeming flood of posts which take the pathological US haters to task, often causing the bashers to bash less often and less intensely - indeed causing the bashers to think twice before they make their compulsive and mindless anti-US posts. A small comfort but a comfort none the less (irony and eccentric foreign cultural idiosyncratic 'humour' not withstanding ) .

I am an American who happens to be back in the US for the next few weeks; but don't look to me for comfort - I seek truth whatever flag it flies over. I am not uncomfortable with criticism as long as it is analytical and reasoned. The W years...we have a great deal to account for and a great deal of trust to win back.

Feast on your stay man, I've been away for too long.

Agreed, the "my country right or wrong" sentiment is mindless and suicidal. The "US is always wrong" absolute rule that many posters and smug Western Europeans have is just plain vacuuous, a clear indication of their own cultural and intellectual deficits and deficiencies.

Pres Obama has entrusted the well being and interests of the United States in this region of the world in two truly capable experts in this region and in Thailand in particular, DepAsstSecState for East Asia Campbell and Ambassador Eric John, both experts and professionals who support the government, have confided US intelligence intercepts of Thaksin's communications against Thailand to the government and who have established ongoing contact with Red leaders and the Reds themselves. It's a delicate and sensitive diplomatic balance strategically and tactically, a balance which requires sophistication and nuances few would accuse the US as capable of having or exercising but which the US does routinely every day. The Obama administration is particularly adept in these matters, having also for instance substantially reversed the Dubya created hostilities between the US and Russia (checking Putin) just to cite one case among many. 

George W. Bush with all my sympathy and support is a person with dyslexia and I've known and respected dear friends and excellent colleagues with dyslexia. But realistically no person with dyslexia should be advanced by a major political party of the United States, in this instance the leaders and money backers of the Republican Party, for the position of POTUS. Worse is that the party swindled the electorate in the 2000 voting, using Dubya's older brother who was governor of Florida, to illegitimately impose an inherently unqualified and incapable person on the United States (and the world) as POTUS.     

Pres Franklin Delano Roosevelt lived most of his life in wheelchair, Lincoln suffered from depression and Kennedy had Addison's disease but no afflicted person who became president was as disastrous as Dubya who had been elected twice as governor of Texas. While Dubya was POTUS the Nobel Peace Prize Committee awarded their Laureate to Jimmy Carter and to Al Gore, then post Bush granted the incumbent Obama the award, so there's been a big change 'cause there's a new sheriff in Washington who's policing Washington first and foremost, to include the greedy and reckless nutters on Wall Street. 

[hextac]

I saw Hillary, The US Secretary of state, was wearing a Red dress while talking about Thailand.

Obviously, Thailand must take note of foreign governments. The French have Thaksan visiting in Paris so France is making its view clear. The UK has repeatedly called for UN run elections here in Thailand but the Regime has said no.

Hey Brits.

That idiot terrorist want to be who is on video calling for the burning of the Central World, is making the Thais hate you Brits.

Yanks are laughing you know. You sure shoveled a load at the Yanks the last 10 years and now you are going to get yours.

Some of you deserve it but most of you do not.

Sorry about the nuts who will trash you now because of the Fire Starter video star.

Did you defend the Yanks though this past decade?

NO

So do not expect the Yanks to defend you because you really were jerks to the Yanks over the last decade and revenge with a laugh is here.

All schools are open today - hurry along or else you'll miss your bus.

[dhrobertson]

OK, I hereby promise not to use irony to "bash the yanks" again.

The point I wanted to make was that I am iritated and tired of the Hollywood version of twentieth century history.

The battle of Britain was the first major defeat inflicted on Hitler and resulted in his invasion plans for Britain being cancelled.

The Russians fielded something like ten times as many divisions in Europe as the Allies together. Hitler committed suicide and the Germans capitulated a few days after the Russians took Berlin.

I am not sure that much good came of the fanatical anti communist drive in East and South East Asia. But this is a subject for debate.

I am not convinced by American diplomacy over the last 50 years, particularly in the Middle East.

Finally, the last thing I think we want is insensitive, ill informed foreign diplomatic intervention in Thailand.

[Publicus]

I saw Hillary, The US Secretary of state, was wearing a Red dress while talking about Thailand.

Obviously, Thailand must take note of foreign governments. The French have Thaksan visiting in Paris so France is making its view clear. The UK has repeatedly called for UN run elections here in Thailand but the Regime has said no.

Hey Brits.

That idiot terrorist want to be who is on video calling for the burning of the Central World, is making the Thais hate you Brits.

Yanks are laughing you know. You sure shoveled a load at the Yanks the last 10 years and now you are going to get yours.

Some of you deserve it but most of you do not.

Sorry about the nuts who will trash you now because of the Fire Starter video star.

Did you defend the Yanks though this past decade?

NO

So do not expect the Yanks to defend you because you really were jerks to the Yanks over the last decade and revenge with a laugh is here.

All schools are open today - hurry along or else you'll miss your bus.

At least he hasn't ever missed the boat.

[Spee]

Pres Franklin Delano Roosevelt lived most of his life in wheelchair,

Huh? Roosevelt died in 1945 at the age of 63. He became paralyzed in 1921 at the age of 39. I'm not sure how 38% of his life equates to "most." But no sweat. That's closer to the facts than the Nobel Peace Committee or any of your political idolatry have ever gotten.

And since you brought him up, Roosevelt was a miserable human being and a horrible president. He was a blue blood aristochratic elitist who didn't give two shits about the working masses. He was a notorius womanizer with numerous widely publicized affairs. His economic policies extended the depression rather than shortened it. He purposely usurped the Supreme Court with hack political appointees to appropriate more power to the executive branch, in direct defiance of the Constitution he swore to uphold. He was positively awful in wartime negotiations, allowing Stalin to run roughshod over Eastern Europe and set the stage for a 40-year long cold war that caused millions more post-war deaths. Roosevelt himself admitted these critical mistakes shortly before his death.

As for the current administration's concern for Thailand, it is superficial at best and has done more to engage with rogue leaders than with those of Thailand.