More Trouble To Arrive On Our Own Doorstep Shortly..?

[Donnyboy]

For me anyway, the long hard road to building democracy in Thailand will be built on institutional reform-- creating an independent judiciary, accountable policing, an anti-corruption movement-

like that will ever happen here soon

[martijn12345]

I don't get this whole thing about portraying Abhisit as a power-hungry maniac. It seems pretty clear to me that he is just a talented politician who became the Democrat party's man at the wrong time. Anyway there seems to be a fundamental contradiction in the two charges most often leveled at him: that he is mad for power, and that he is just a puppet of more powerful interests.

Regarding the troubles of the previous Thaksin parties (TRT and PPP), they brought at least some of it on themselves. Calling a snap election then paying small parties to run and lose, in order to validate their own victories, is as fraudulent as you can get.

I noticed that after the Bangkok mayhem, a very pro-Thaksin neighbor who for the last 5 years has had his home and shop literally wallpapered with TRT, PPP, and PT posters, has taken down the signs. Change of heart or change of tactics?

For me anyway, the long hard road to building democracy in Thailand will be built on institutional reform-- creating an independent judiciary, accountable policing, an anti-corruption movement--more than electoral politics, which have proved dodgy. The country has shown its ability to subvert the letter and spirit of electoral law at all levels, from the village ballot box to the inscrutable workings of the EC. Regarding institutional reform, neither side has distinguished itself. Not Team Yellow, with its influence on the courts, and certainly not team Red, with Mr T's impressive track record of disempowering every independent state agency (NCCC, NHRC, NRC...) and centralizing control to himself. I'm not suggesting that there shouldn't be elections, but that I don't see any electoral outcome in itself leading to a more democratic state.

Well said. I agree. If you take a step back and try to see the big pictures and lines. I think that the main goal of the red shirt (a more equal dividing of the economic growth) is a very healthy and understandable one. A pitty, smart powerhungry people have been able to mix it with their own personal interests.

During the whole situation Abisit has shown nothing of powerhunger in my opinion he is really trying to be reasonable and understanding while trying to govern this country the best he can. I can see he has a point in saying this country is not ready for elections at this moment. He is right in saying things need some time to cool down. As long as he is true to his former promises to hold elections as soon as possible, I think that is not a bad plan for the short term.

In the long run Thailand does risk to get into the same circel again, if nothing changes, chances are red side will win elections and yellow side will step in again. Mix this with a King, who is respected by both sides, who is ageing and will sooner or later leave a huge power vacuum, it's not a sensionalist idea to say things ain't over yet.

I hope more people can try to focus on the red lines and major ideas, in stead of zooming into incidents all the time. This all IMHO.

Edited May 25, 2010 by martijn12345

[thailandbluegrass]

I don't get this whole thing about portraying Abhisit as a power-hungry maniac. It seems pretty clear to me that he is just a talented politician who became the Democrat party's man at the wrong time. Anyway there seems to be a fundamental contradiction in the two charges most often leveled at him: that he is mad for power, and that he is just a puppet of more powerful interests.

Regarding the troubles of the previous Thaksin parties (TRT and PPP), they brought at least some of it on themselves. Calling a snap election then paying small parties to run and lose, in order to validate their own victories, is as fraudulent as you can get.

I noticed that after the Bangkok mayhem, a very pro-Thaksin neighbor who for the last 5 years has had his home and shop literally wallpapered with TRT, PPP, and PT posters, has taken down the signs. Change of heart or change of tactics?

For me anyway, the long hard road to building democracy in Thailand will be built on institutional reform-- creating an independent judiciary, accountable policing, an anti-corruption movement--more than electoral politics, which have proved dodgy. The country has shown its ability to subvert the letter and spirit of electoral law at all levels, from the village ballot box to the inscrutable workings of the EC. Regarding institutional reform, neither side has distinguished itself. Not Team Yellow, with its influence on the courts, and certainly not team Red, with Mr T's impressive track record of disempowering every independent state agency (NCCC, NHRC, NRC...) and centralizing control to himself. I'm not suggesting that there shouldn't be elections, but that I don't see any electoral outcome in itself leading to a more democratic state.

Well said. I agree. If you take a step back and try to see the big pictures and lines. I think that the main goal of the red shirt (a more equal dividing of the economic growth) is a very healthy and understandable one. A pitty, smart powerhungry people have been able to mix it with their own personal interests.

During the whole situation Abisit has shown nothing of powerhunger in my opinion he is really trying to be reasonable and understanding while trying to govern this country the best he can. I can see he has a point in saying this country is not ready for elections at this moment. He is right in saying things need some time to cool down. As long as he is true to his former promises to hold elections as soon as possible, I think that is not a bad plan for the short term.

In the long run Thailand does risk to get into the same circel again, if nothing changes, chances are red side will win elections and yellow side will step in again. Mix this with a King, who is respected by both sides, who is ageing and will sooner or later leave a huge power vacuum, it's not a sensionalist idea to say things ain't over yet.

I hope more people can try to focus on the red lines and major ideas, in stead of zooming into incidents all the time. This all IMHO.

WOW To many big words for me. I want my two cents back !!!!!

[martijn12345]

Use them to buy a book? I'm not good at English and pretty sure there are no difficult words in my post

[mcgriffith]

Use them to buy a book? I'm not good at English and pretty sure there are no difficult words in my post

No, martijn, your words and thoughts are perfectly understandable, and I agree with all of your observations.

As well as the nested quotes of Puwa.

It is good to see commentary like this.

[CMX]

I too agree that the remarks of Martijn and Puwa are admirably lucid. I think that it is important to note that Martijn said "long hard road to building democracy."

Nowhere has democracy popped into existence at once, perfectly shaped (if perfection exists at all). Many seem to forget that all roads to democracies - including our own from whichever nation we come, if we call our own government that, were long roads, very long, and hard, very hard.

Which goes exactly to the topic. Personally, I'm a bystander with no wisdom to suggest how the citizens of another nation - one with a huge and certainly proud history of which I do not and cannot know as would a native citizen - will go. Even more clear is that nobody can know with ANY degree of certainly HOW the future will evolve.

Even speculation that is short-term is that: Speculation.

Edited May 25, 2010 by CMX

[Loaded]

Al Jazeera is not the only news agency reporting potential problems for Chiang Mai. Here are two more news articles specifically about the Red Movement in the city. One site is Thai-based:

The Globe and Mail (Canada)

Prachatai News (This site now seems to have been added to the rapidly expanding "blocked" list)

According to the The Globe and Mail article, there is going to be a large protest this Saturday.

So, did the Globe and Mail get it right or were they just inventing news?

[Thailand]

Al Jazeera is not the only news agency reporting potential problems for Chiang Mai. Here are two more news articles specifically about the Red Movement in the city. One site is Thai-based:

The Globe and Mail (Canada)

Prachatai News (This site now seems to have been added to the rapidly expanding "blocked" list)

According to the The Globe and Mail article, there is going to be a large protest this Saturday.

So, did the Globe and Mail get it right or were they just inventing news?

Probably getting their info from the British foreign office that has it's finger on the pulse-not.

[Loaded]

Anyways, all I can say is every day I drive my gf to work beside the City Hall and yesterday AND today I saw more police and military then any other day in the past 2 months. But I guess you all know more then they do?

So what happened then?

Absolutely nothing is my guess.

Edited May 30, 2010 by Loaded

[Ulysses G.]

Since the last day of the protest in Bangkok, newspapers all over the world have been predicting mayhem and making sure that tourists avoid Thailand.

I have learned a lot about trusting the media from the way that they covered this whole thing.

[Donnyboy]

Since the last day of the protest in Bangkok, newspapers all over the world have been predicting mayhem and making sure that tourists avoid Thailand.

I have learned a lot about trusting the media from the way that they covered this whole thing.

most have an agenda one way or another

[gotlost]

Since the last day of the protest in Bangkok, newspapers all over the world have been predicting mayhem and making sure that tourists avoid Thailand.

I have learned a lot about trusting the media from the way that they covered this whole thing.

most have an agenda one way or another

Just look at our local media they are the same. Yesterday posting an article that was 10 days old about violence and mayhem in Chiang Mai.

[Donnyboy]

Since the last day of the protest in Bangkok, newspapers all over the world have been predicting mayhem and making sure that tourists avoid Thailand.

I have learned a lot about trusting the media from the way that they covered this whole thing.

most have an agenda one way or another

Just look at our local media they are the same. Yesterday posting an article that was 10 days old about violence and mayhem in Chiang Mai.

no, they were just slow

[tomahawk]

I believe the big international media like CNN and BBC were just as bad as local Chiang Mai news. BBC guy was interviewing Thai army colonel, who said there were 40,000 people in protest area but only 3,000 protesters at the time. Next thing, only 2 minutes later, same BBC guy announces there are 40,000 protesters fighting with army. Then Bloomberg channel says that state of emergency declared in 15 of the 37 provinces of Thailand. Then Thaksin's lawyer comes on and starts talking about his client, but pronounces th in Thaksin like thank you. I would not want lawyer defending me that cannot say my name right. But that one not the news channel fault, just the lawyer.

[debcmai]

I believe the big international media like CNN and BBC were just as bad as local Chiang Mai news. BBC guy was interviewing Thai army colonel, who said there were 40,000 people in protest area but only 3,000 protesters at the time. Next thing, only 2 minutes later, same BBC guy announces there are 40,000 protesters fighting with army. Then Bloomberg channel says that state of emergency declared in 15 of the 37 provinces of Thailand. Then Thaksin's lawyer comes on and starts talking about his client, but pronounces th in Thaksin like thank you. I would not want lawyer defending me that cannot say my name right. But that one not the news channel fault, just the lawyer.

The newspaper we cannot name, with Thai reporters, said that the numbers were 15,000 - 100,000 daily....more in the evenings with the locals coming along...right up till the shooting started. That report was in the Sunday paper before the shootings.

[Donnyboy]

^ fog of war i guess

[orang37]

... snip ... Nowhere has democracy popped into existence at once, perfectly shaped (if perfection exists at all). Many seem to forget that all roads to democracies - including our own from whichever nation we come, if we call our own government that, were long roads, very long, and hard, very hard.

Sawasdee Khrup, Khun CMX,

Indeed, as you, to our minds imply: popping to perfection is a metaphysical question. We don't consider our own human's nation of birth (America) a democracy in a "pure" sense. We think democracy is more often plopped into existence than popped.

Seems many farangs we've met here hold Thailand "up to judgement" by some mythical standard of "democracy" that their own home countries do not meet.

Here are a few statements on democracy by some of the people considered "founding poppers" of American democracy we find curious :

Thomas Jefferson : "A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine."

Thomas Paine : "The first duty of a patriot is to defend the citizens of a country from its government."

John Quincy Adams : "Democracy... while it lasts is more bloody than either aristocracy or monarchy. Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There is never a democracy that did not commit suicide."

Benjamin Franklin : "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."

In any case, we can relax because: ThaiVisa is reporting that AFP is reporting that PM Khun Abhisit said on television the country's back to "normal" now. We farangs can all bask in normalcy a while like reptiles sunning themselves on rocks.

best, ~o:37;

Edited May 30, 2010 by orang37

[anonymouse]

Back here in the UK and going through the Saturday papers yesterday Thailand doesn't get a mention.

Sensationalist World news covered was a maoist uprising in India and the threat of civil war, North and South Korea close to war and the Jamacian capital Kingston in mayhem - it's a fickle business journalism

[NaiGreg]

We farangs can all bask in normalcy a while like reptiles sunning themselves on rocks.

best, ~o:37;

It is true! Great metaphor.

[gotlost]

Since the last day of the protest in Bangkok, newspapers all over the world have been predicting mayhem and making sure that tourists avoid Thailand.

I have learned a lot about trusting the media from the way that they covered this whole thing.

most have an agenda one way or another

Just look at our local media they are the same. Yesterday posting an article that was 10 days old about violence and mayhem in Chiang Mai.

no, they were just slow

That's no excuse. The article being as old as it was should never have been posted the way it was. I am not saying that CMM is worse than other media outlets but just as bad.

[cmdream]

... snip ... Nowhere has democracy popped into existence at once, perfectly shaped (if perfection exists at all). Many seem to forget that all roads to democracies - including our own from whichever nation we come, if we call our own government that, were long roads, very long, and hard, very hard.

Sawasdee Khrup, Khun CMX,

Indeed, as you, to our minds imply: popping to perfection is a metaphysical question. We don't consider our own human's nation of birth (America) a democracy in a "pure" sense. We think democracy is more often plopped into existence than popped.

Seems many farangs we've met here hold Thailand "up to judgement" by some mythical standard of "democracy" that their own home countries do not meet.

Here are a few statements on democracy by some of the people considered "founding poppers" of American democracy we find curious :

Thomas Jefferson : "A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine."

Thomas Paine : "The first duty of a patriot is to defend the citizens of a country from its government."

John Quincy Adams : "Democracy... while it lasts is more bloody than either aristocracy or monarchy. Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There is never a democracy that did not commit suicide."

Benjamin Franklin : "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."

In any case, we can relax because: ThaiVisa is reporting that AFP is reporting that PM Khun Abhisit said on television the country's back to "normal" now. We farangs can all bask in normalcy a while like reptiles sunning themselves on rocks.

best, ~o:37;

I find it interesting that most of the guys you quote also wrote and signed the "Declaration of Independence" and "The Constitution of the United States". These men had great insight into mans fallibility. Just google the "Declaration of Independence" and savor the words

that these same guys put together 250 years ago. No malice in the letter to the King of England, just a letter convening the sentiment

of a tortured colonial people. The King of England sent his Red Coat Army to show these upstarts that the English Empire was not to be

denied. The rest is history.

[CMX]

Since this thread has been resuscitated, I add a remark or two.

I have no idea where recent events are likely to lead here in Thailand, and no say. In general, theorists have advanced the idea that an educated populace is better than one less educated, in order that a democracy function well. But in my own nation, nominally "well educated" people are easily swayed by TV and other outlets for propaganda and have supported the greatest of sins - starting a war in the names of patriotism and loyalty.

On the other hand, in human histories all oligarchies and "benevolent dictatorships" have descended into the hands of tyrants or incompetents.

Thai history and culture are unique. The nation's solutions will be too, and I am far too close to the situation (and far too ignorant - true of farang in particular, even those with 20 years of experience here) to be able to issue even a wild guess as to its future, near or distant, unless I'm willing to be a fool.

And if I am tempted to say how Thailand "should" behave, it is almost always the case that I am selecting a path for the nation that is convenient to my own personal (selfish) interests. Spinning my wheels in the mud as the rains come harder.

[CMX]

Since this thread has been resuscitated, I add a remark or two.

I have no idea where recent events are likely to lead here in Thailand, and no say. In general, theorists have advanced the idea that an educated populace is better than one less educated, in order that a democracy function well. But in my own nation, nominally "well educated" people are easily swayed by TV and other outlets for propaganda and have supported the greatest of sins - starting a war in the names of patriotism and loyalty.

On the other hand, in human histories all oligarchies and "benevolent dictatorships" have descended into the hands of tyrants or incompetents.

Thai history and culture are unique. The nation's solutions will be too, and I am far too close to the situation (and far too ignorant - true of farang in particular, even those with 20 years of experience here) to be able to issue even a wild guess as to its future, near or distant, unless I'm willing to be a fool.

And if I am tempted to say how Thailand "should" behave, it is almost always the case that I am selecting a path for the nation that is convenient to my own personal (selfish) interests. Spinning my wheels in the mud as the rains come harder.

[orang37]

Sawasdee Khrup, Khun CMX,

Curious: when you speak of the value of an educated population: are you referring to any Thai theorists of education, or any specific person in Thai history, perhaps King Vajiravudh ... or ... well ... who are you referring to when you say "theorists" ?

But in my own nation, nominally "well educated" people are easily swayed by TV and other outlets for propaganda and have supported the greatest of sins - starting a war in the names of patriotism and loyalty.

Ain't that the truth; same things happens in the nation my human came from. A lot of LZ-Boy reclining chairs and lawn chairs get busted from the stress of the continual swaying.

Thai history and culture are unique. The nation's solutions will be too, and I am far too close to the situation (and far too ignorant - true of farang in particular, even those with 20 years of experience here) to be able to issue even a wild guess as to its future, near or distant, unless I'm willing to be a fool.

We're with you there; the main thing we've learned by reading Thai history (in English only, or in English translations of Thai original texts) in some "amateur" depth over several years is a little more about the nature and structure of the "model" of "history" which our human internalized in his native country, and how very different that model is from the Thai model: of which we think we see "into" only shallowly. Of course the Orang in us doesn't know history from banana.

We're on our third reading of Thongchai Winichakul's book [1], and with each reading: it gets deeper, and better. If you accept Khun Thongchai's thesis: the "invention" of Thai history in its modern form is quite recent and involves a very significant "fudge factor" motivated by the need to create a new narrative following the humiliation of King Chulalongkorn by the French sending their gunboats up the Chao Phraya in 1893 to enforce demands for territories formerly tributary to Siam in what are now Cambodia and Laos. Thongchai asserts that Rama V believed the British would back him up against the French since Siam had been "liberal" in acceeding to British interests in the Malay Peninsula, in Lanna; he was told, brusquely, by Curzon of India, that the British were not getting involved. King Chulalongkorn lost forty pounds during this crisis and became very weak mentally and physically. The real possibility of his death was salient at the Court. Fortunately, with the help of Prince Damrong, and others, King Rama V recovered: but, according to Thongchai, this discontinuity forced the creation of a new "mapping" that was both geographic (in the western mode) and historical.

And if I am tempted to say how Thailand "should" behave, it is almost always the case that I am selecting a path for the nation that is convenient to my own personal (selfish) interests. Spinning my wheels in the mud as the rains come harder.

Oh, eloquently said, Sir ! How many times do we forget we are guests here, and forget the seductions cultural and social that made it so easy to forget we are ... "farang" ? And how dangerous it can be to forget

best, ~o:37;

[1] Siam Mapped: A History of the Geo-body of a Nation. Honolulu: University of Hawaii Press, 1994Siam Mapped: A History of the Geo-body of a Nation. Honolulu: University of Hawaii Press, 1994, also published by Silkworm Press here in Chiang Mai

Edited May 31, 2010 by orang37