Thai Police

[babababor]

When either a farang or a Thai is apprehended by the police, do they have a right to fix the penalty (ie fine) there and then or do we have a right to insist on going to court.

Examples

Speeding or overtaking on a white line

Dropping a cigarette butt (even when you are a non smoker)

Allegedly causing a problem in a bar.

Etc etc

Many times farangs are picked on by the Police and not knowing their rights just pay up - sometimes many many thousands.

What eaxctly are ones rights

[sua yai]

I would reckon you always have a right to contest these matters.

However, whether it would eventually turn out in your favour is a totally different matter.

To use the Uk as an example, minor traffic infringements will result in your being able to pay an on the spot fine, plead guilty by post, or go to court.

If you go to court and are found guilty, the court is not likely to treat you leniently when imposing the fine.

Don't see it's much different here.

[Rinrada]

I would reckon you always have a right to contest these matters.

However, whether it would eventually turn out in your favour is a totally different matter.

To use the Uk as an example, minor traffic infringements will result in your being able to pay an on the spot fine, plead guilty by post, or go to court.

If you go to court and are found guilty, the court is not likely to treat you leniently when imposing the fine.

Don't see it's much different here.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thats a new one on me

If a Policeman stops you and takes Money from you...on the Spot... he is the one that will end up in Jail....and quite rightly so.....

If you on the other hand YOU try to offer him some dosh and he is an honest cop (most are) then YOU will end up in jail for attempting to Bribe a SERVANT of the LAW/of thePEOPLE and ...again quite rightly so.

I know its done on the continent (by statute)and they are looking at it over ere but as yet I do not believe we have traversed that gap yet...

Might be wrong of course since I gota bus pass and dont .....

[Crossy]

I would reckon you always have a right to contest these matters.

However, whether it would eventually turn out in your favour is a totally different matter.

To use the Uk as an example, minor traffic infringements will result in your being able to pay an on the spot fine, plead guilty by post, or go to court.

If you go to court and are found guilty, the court is not likely to treat you leniently when imposing the fine.

Don't see it's much different here.

Thats a new one on me

If a Policeman stops you and takes Money from you...on the Spot... he is the one that will end up in Jail....and quite rightly so.....

If you on the other hand YOU try to offer him some dosh and he is an honest cop (most are) then YOU will end up in jail for attempting to Bribe a SERVANT of the LAW/of thePEOPLE and ...again quite rightly so.

I know its done on the continent (by statute)and they are looking at it over ere but as yet I do not believe we have traversed that gap yet...

Might be wrong of course since I gota bus pass and dont .....

I think Sua Yai is referring to the 'Fixed Penalty' which is synonymous with an 'On The Spot Fine', except that you don't pay the copper.

Edited June 16, 2005 by Crossy

[Bentley 7]

You may have the right to contest any police related matter, however would you want to? The legal and judicial system is so stacked against you that you are opening up a can of worms by trying.

Apart from offending the officials making the allegations and then (possibly)suffering further repocusions such as a beating or being framed for other offences, even before you get to a judicial hearing you will be stitched up in expensive lawyers fees, interpreters, translators and court costs which will probably many times the original fine.

Dont forget that in the legal systems eyes- "foreigners are considered to be guests in Thailand and thus not given much consideration or protection under local laws"

Though at most times these incidents occur most foreigners are treated with respect and civility by the Thai police to avoid bad press -just keep your cool and accept that your not in your own country.

Edited June 16, 2005 by Bentley 7

[camerata]

When either a farang or a Thai is apprehended by the police, do they have a right to fix the penalty (ie fine) there and then or do we have a right to insist on going to court.

Examples

Speeding or overtaking on a white line

Dropping a cigarette butt (even when you are a non smoker)

Allegedly causing a problem in a bar.

Etc etc

Many times farangs are picked on by the Police and not knowing their rights just pay up - sometimes many many thousands.

What eaxctly are ones rights

What you have to remember is that having rights and exercising them are two different things. For various reasons (mostly conflict avoidance) most Thais won't contest these small things. They have their way of doing it - pulling out their karachakarn ID card, or the business card of some big-shot, or making up some sob-story, or claiming they're broke. If all that fails, they'll just negotiate the lowest fine they can.

They definitely aren't going to make a big deal out of it, hire lawyers (who nobody trusts), spend a lot of money, and make enemies of the local cops. It wouldn't make sense to a Thai. As a foreigner you're at a disadvantage in court or out, simply because you don't know the way things are done and don't speak/read the language fluently.

Better to do as the Thais do and pay up for minor things. You'll be better off paying a couple of thousand than accusing the police of fitting you up. What you definitely can do is request to pay the fine at the police station, but it's only worth it if you have a lot of free time and know the on-the-spot "fine" they are demanding is highly inflated.

[Ajarn]

Dont forget that in the legal systems eyes- "foreigners are considered to be guests in Thailand and thus not given much consideration or protection under local laws"

Obviously your quotes, because there is no such generally accepted policy, in reality. Show an example of such a REAL situation. I don't believe there will be many examples of such, outside the 'TiT' factor. Lots of experiences here that tell me that foreigners (farangs... not burmese, lao, etc.) are generally treated at least equally, if not better, than many Thais in the judicial system.

[samran]

What you definitely can do is request to pay the fine at the police station, but it's only worth it if you have a lot of free time and know the on-the-spot "fine" they are demanding is highly inflated.

I do this all the time if I am in the wrong (eg driving in the wrong lane, illegal turns etc). Fine is always low, something like 200 baht and you get a receipt. Doesn’t let them extort you for being in the wrong. No hassle to pay either (usually).

If I am in the right, an effective tactic is to firstly stall, then deny any knowledge, stall again, then ask for an explanation as to what you did wrong and for them to show it to you and then actually ask for a ticket. You’d be surprised how much this puts a bad cop off.

If they are on the take, they don’t want to seem too obvious about it. As well, time is money for this type of copper. He is most likely going to let you go as he is wanting easy prey, and can’t be arsed writing you a ticket and then following up with the paper work back at the copshop later.

[Bentley 7]

Your correct in your observations of experiences with foreigners and the thai judicial system. I find that particularly in crimminal prosecutions that there is a general courtesy given to most foreigners, but being nice and being fair are often two seperate issues.

Very few foreigners actually hold thai citizenship and thus have protection under the Constitution of Thailand, the majority are on work permits or tourist visas which are documents allowing you to be in Thailand for these specific purposes and thus entitles you only to the protections of international law as a citizen of another state.

If foreigners have the same rights then why is it not possible to own land like a thai or participate in all areas of commerce and at the whim of these authorities you could be expelled and deported from Thailand without notice.

Who will ensure and protect your rights then? A lawyer, your embassy, a civil rights decree? In reality nobody can.

[samran]

Dont forget that in the legal systems eyes- "foreigners are considered to be guests in Thailand and thus not given much consideration or protection under local laws"

Obviously your quotes, because there is no such generally accepted policy, in reality. Show an example of such a REAL situation. I don't believe there will be many examples of such, outside the 'TiT' factor. Lots of experiences here that tell me that foreigners (farangs... not burmese, lao, etc.) are generally treated at least equally, if not better, than many Thais in the judicial system.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Great post. I have actually been a mediator in incidents where the Thai police officers where pleading with me to tell my farang friends that they are doing everything by the book, lest foreigners get a bad impression of how they do their job.

As well. for bigger issues than a speeding ticket, being a farang (can) = having money = well resourced = able to use the law to their advantage rather than being shafted.

[samran]

Very few foreigners actually hold thai citizenship and thus have protection under the Constitution of Thailand, the majority are on work permits or tourist visas which are documents allowing you to be in Thailand for these specific purposes and thus entitles you only to the protections of international law as a citizen of another state.

If foreigners have the same rights then why is it not possible to own land like a thai or participate in all areas of commerce and at the whim of these authorities you could be expelled and deported from Thailand without notice.

Who will ensure and protect your rights then? A lawyer, your embassy, a civil rights decree?  In reality nobody can.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Protection under Thai law and nationality restrictions are two seperate issues. Everyone is afforded the same (theoretical) protections under Thai law. My contention is that if you are a farang, you are more likely to have due process followed.

Most countries (including developed nations) in the world have nationality restrictions in various areas of commerce/land ownership for foreigners. That is simply a trade restriction.

Edited June 16, 2005 by samran

[Nordlys]

What you definitely can do is request to pay the fine at the police station, but it's only worth it if you have a lot of free time and know the on-the-spot "fine" they are demanding is highly inflated.

I do this all the time if I am in the wrong (eg driving in the wrong lane, illegal turns etc). Fine is always low, something like 200 baht and you get a receipt. Doesn’t let them extort you for being in the wrong. No hassle to pay either (usually).

If I am in the right, an effective tactic is to firstly stall, then deny any knowledge, stall again, then ask for an explanation as to what you did wrong and for them to show it to you and then actually ask for a ticket. You’d be surprised how much this puts a bad cop off.

If they are on the take, they don’t want to seem too obvious about it. As well, time is money for this type of copper. He is most likely going to let you go as he is wanting easy prey, and can’t be arsed writing you a ticket and then following up with the paper work back at the copshop later.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Samran is right. Everytime I get caught by bribe demanding cop, I insist on receiving a ticket and they just don't want to bother with me and let me go.

Once I was caught at Sathorn/Rama 4 intersection for what wrong I've done I forgot. Whatever the violation it was, I admitted my fault, no argument, no pleading, I received a ticket without protest. Then when I went to the police station later that day, I was told to come back another day as the cop who issued the ticket is not back at the station so my driver's licnese is not there yet. Next time I showed up a few days later, they said they'll go look for my driver's license but after receiving B400 fine, the officer who took the matter went somewhere in the office leaving me unattended for almost an hour. It was only after more than an hour's waiting that a different, female officer showed up and asked me B100 so she can 'speed things up', that I noticed they were procrastinating it expecting I would bribe them to facilitate prompt return of my driver's license. I explained to her if I wanted to bribe I would have done so in the first place when I was caught, and upon hearing that she brought my license back immediately. The cop who issued a ticket was very straight forward and didn't seem like he was demanding any bribe. But I wondered if that was their tactic for encouraging violators to bribe at the scene rather than to go through the due process of law.

Edited June 16, 2005 by Nordlys

[samran]

Once I was caught at Sathorn/Rama 4 intersection for what wrong I've done I forgot.  Whatever the violation it was, I admitted my fault, no argument, no pleading, I received a ticket without protest.

hehe...thats where I got caught once. Did the same thing, and went down to the Suan Phlu station later that day....

Lucky for me they didn't procrastinate, and on the way out I beleive I caught a glimpse next door of the immigration detention centre which looked like a bit like an old fashoned zoo with caged people inside.

[Ajarn]

What you definitely can do is request to pay the fine at the police station, but it's only worth it if you have a lot of free time and know the on-the-spot "fine" they are demanding is highly inflated.

I do this all the time if I am in the wrong (eg driving in the wrong lane, illegal turns etc). Fine is always low, something like 200 baht and you get a receipt. Doesn’t let them extort you for being in the wrong. No hassle to pay either (usually).

If I am in the right, an effective tactic is to firstly stall, then deny any knowledge, stall again, then ask for an explanation as to what you did wrong and for them to show it to you and then actually ask for a ticket. You’d be surprised how much this puts a bad cop off.

If they are on the take, they don’t want to seem too obvious about it. As well, time is money for this type of copper. He is most likely going to let you go as he is wanting easy prey, and can’t be arsed writing you a ticket and then following up with the paper work back at the copshop later.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Samran is right. Everytime I get caught by bribe demanding cop, I insist on receiving a ticket and they just don't want to bother with me and let me go.

Once I was caught at Sathorn/Rama 4 intersection for what wrong I've done I forgot. Whatever the violation it was, I admitted my fault, no argument, no pleading, I received a ticket without protest. Then when I went to the police station later that day, I was told to come back another day as the cop who issued the ticket is not back at the station so my driver's licnese is not there yet. Next time I showed up a few days later, they said they'll go look for my driver's license but after receiving B400 fine, the officer who took the matter went somewhere in the office leaving me unattended for almost an hour. It was only after more than an hour's waiting that a different, female officer showed up and asked me B100 so she can 'speed things up', that I noticed they were procrastinating it expecting I would bribe them to facilitate prompt return of my driver's license. I explained to her if I wanted to bribe I would have done so in the first place when I was caught, and upon hearing that she brought my license back immediately. The cop who issued a ticket was very straight forward and didn't seem like he was demanding any bribe. But I wondered if that was their tactic for encouraging violators to bribe at the scene rather than to go through the due process of law.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Behaviour Mod 101

So, are going to do the same the next time? Or are you really hard-headed and don't mind the headaches and expense to make your point that's ignored?

I didn't hesitate to whip out 200 haht to the hiway cop last week who said I was going 130...Actually, he walked up, saluted, then waied me and said, "You go too fast. (points to handwritten '130' in notebook) 200 baht, please.". 'Yes sir, no problem' as I handed him the money and drove off, back up to speed. Life ain't so bad here, sometimes, if you just try to go with the flow whenever reasonable, and when it works in your favour.

Edited June 16, 2005 by Ajarn

[Bentley 7]

The above stories and practices are the most practicle methods of dealing with these minor offences and used by thais and foreigners alike. (They have served me well on many occassions)

However in answer to the question (my understanding of it anyways)

If you happen to get yourself caught up in these unfortunate circumstances and then your "theoretical" rights are that:

You have the right to question your offence or charge (whereupon you will be taken to the local police station) to discuss it with a superior

You have the right to ask for the evidence of your offence (this could be the statement from the police officer etc)

If no resolution can be resolved then you are entitled to call a lawyer and ask him to "negotiate" the matter and or ensure that there is sufficent proof of offence and that procedure is being followed

If then you are arrested you are to be placed before a judge within 24 to 48 hours of the arrest(this can take much longer in some cases), in less serious cases you have to apply for a court date (6 months+)

This judge depending on the matter can make a decision on the case and pronounce sentence or fines plus courts.

If the matter is more serious (murder or drugs etc) and the police request that you stay in custody they will ask the judge to remand you. Asking for bail by your lawyer is done here, if the judge agrees to the stay in custody you will be moved from the police station cells to a jail facility.

A new court date will be appointed and the case will be heard by 1 or 3 judges and they will decide the outcome and pronounce sentence at completion.

Now you underdstand why many thai crimms confess to get a leniency in sentence as the whole process can be messy, confusing, costly and time consuming. Even more so for foreigners who require translation and interpretation.

Add to this the often cruel depictions on the media of the suspect shacked and paraded its not a process you would want to be involved in.

In conclusion when in Thailand do as the Thais and accept it and pay up and shut up.

[ozzydom]

It was recently in the press that on the spot fines collected by police is now set at a maximum of 10k per month per officer and that a percentage of these fines was to be handed in to their office to be shared by non-patrolling members of the force,so they can hardly be called "bribes" if the govt.condones it. more like collecting your own salary..

[sua yai]

On the subject of police treatment of forigners, I have this to add.

Years ago, I was arrested up country with some Thais. The potential charges were extremely serious (not drugs BTW). Being a Sunday, we weren't going anywhere until the court opened the next day. I contacted the Duty Officer at my Embassy. He told me that I'd be detained overnight.

Throughout the first day, the police were polite and courteous - to me. I wasn't locked up in the heat of the day. Quite the opposite. Sat at a desk under a fan, offered food, water and toilet facilities when I wanted. Even an ashtray. Also close to the cell so I could speak to the others. I was eventually locked up for the night.

Let out on 650,000 Baht bail the next day by the court. The others went to prison until they could arrange bail.

I was under investigation for the next three months before charges were dropped. Never came to court.

I doubt the police would have been any better in my home country. In fact, probably a lot worse. Still, an unfortunate incident that I am certainly not going to repeat.

[astral]

I would reckon you always have a right to contest these matters.

However, whether it would eventually turn out in your favour is a totally different matter.

To use the Uk as an example, minor traffic infringements will result in your being able to pay an on the spot fine, plead guilty by post, or go to court.

If you go to court and are found guilty, the court is not likely to treat you leniently when imposing the fine.

Don't see it's much different here.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There is no way that you can make a comparison to the UK.

Your right of a hearing in court is well defined there.

In Thailand the police are judge and jury on minor matters.

If you feel you have been infairly treated your only recourse is to lodge

a formal complaint at the local police station, with the senior officer!

To do that you need to speak good Thai.

Otherwise just grin a bear it, after all the fine will be quite small, relatively.

For major matters, Sua Yai's later reply, of getting a lawyer is the only path to take, raising the bail to ensure freedom whilst the matter is investigated.

If you are not guilty you have little to worry about, unless you have upset someone, resulting in a vendetta.

[sua yai]

Astral,

Maybe over the two posts, I didn't explain myself properly.

The second, serious matter was resolved through the courts and the police.

I don't set myself out to be an expert on Thai law - anything but. However, I did know a bit about it in the UK.

In certain matters, it is common proceedure for the police in England to be the jury and judge if you want it.

Ie, minor traffic infringements, up to possession of cannabis. It's totally up to the police whether they press charges now. If you agree to a fine, imposed by the police, or confiscation, the matter goes no further. You're given a warning, but have to pay a little as it's against the law. Sometimes, no criminal record.

Magistrates in England are now generally frustrated by their courts being clogged up with simple summary matters, when the police can take care of them themselves.

That was the only comparision I was trying to draw to Thailand.

Hopefully, the police aren't bent.

[satu]

you have all the rights the thai law give you

but you must be crazy go to court for nothing

pay your 200 bath fine and smile

however you allways have the right to leave this beauty country

take it easy and smile dont play THE BIG WHITE MAN

shok dee

[IsaanAlex]

Whatever your dealings are with the Thai police it's usually about the money at the end of the day.

Don't fight it; don't get sucked further into the machine. It will just cost you more. The fines get higher as there are more people to pay off at each stage. You risk offending someone along the way, trumped up charges, more grandiose (sp) extortion attempts, etc.

There is no justice here. Don't try to find it. Dion't try to force it. Just pay as little as possible and extricate yourself from the situation.

It doesn't matter if it's a speeding ticket or you've killed someone. Put some money in someone with some pulls hand and walk away.

The above opinion is forged from multiple incidents of dealing with police from issues ranging from driving in the wrong lane too long, to being involved in the tail end ogf a hit-and-run where a Thai lady who was struck died (I was part of the 'run' part, when a Thai mob started to attack my workmate who hit the lady as she stepped in front of him on a semi-highway-as he was going through a green light).

I've also dealt with Thai police in pubs who were;

(a) so shitfaced and belligerant that they were a danger (especially as they were in uniform and still armed.

Or,

( One policeman who befriended me and later repeatedly called my mobile phone inviting me to whorehouses and talking threateningly with my wife that he "had a problem with me"...when he couldn't reach me (as I was out of the country).

I'll keep it short.

Most Thai policeman are pieces of shit and best avoided.

Pay and walk away.

IA

[Camelot]

If you insist on getting a receipt for an alleged driving offence, make sure you pay the fine at the police station yourself.

One Sunday, a cop claimed I was parked illegally. I wasn't, as a sign nearby said parking was allowed on a Sunday and there was still 10 minutes to go before midnight and the Sunday turned into a Monday.

He wanted 200 baht and I insisted on a timed and dated ticket which he angrily gave me while ignoring the 10 or 12 other vehicles parked in front and behind me. He also told me the police station would fine me 400 baht.

A couple of days later I came down with a bad case of 'flu and asked my housekeeper to drop by the police station, pay the 400 baht and pick up my licence while she was down at the market (the police station is across the road from the market).

She came back and gave me 100 baht and my licence. No receipt.

I asked her what happened.

She said the lady at the police station had said a receipt would cost 400 baht, but she could knock 100 baht off if a receipt wasn't required. My housekeeper (now my wife) thought that was a great deal and I wouldn't want to be so stupid as to give 100 baht away for nothing.

Ever had the feeling the odds are stacked against you and you just can't win?

Edited June 17, 2005 by Camelot

[mpdkorat]

When either a farang or a Thai is apprehended by the police, do they have a right to fix the penalty (ie fine) there and then or do we have a right to insist on going to court.

Examples

Speeding or overtaking on a white line

Dropping a cigarette butt (even when you are a non smoker)

Allegedly causing a problem in a bar.

Etc etc

Many times farangs are picked on by the Police and not knowing their rights just pay up - sometimes many many thousands.

What eaxctly are ones rights

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I just pay. I do not worry about the ticket. I hope I will be able to continue to pay. I hate going to the police station. A pox on honest cops!!

[george]

Just pay on the spot and smile. I define it as "Road Tax"

[MP5]

Just pay on the spot and smile. I define it as "Road Tax"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Exactly the police get low wages so look at it as taxing at the source as I have commented in another thread.

Also ring the Tourist Police and your Embassy's police liaison officer.

I wonder some times about the stupidity of some of these posts.

Ring your Embassy

Thai law states all foreigners are entilted to the same rightsd as Thai's which is the right to consult a lawyer,consult with a doctor and make a phone call.

Rule 54 Don't break the law even if you think it's a stupid one.

I have never seen any one win with the parking meter maid in any country so your chances with police if you are wrong. I'd be making the phone call to the Embassy and they do have 24 hour hotlines to Embassy's.

I know for a fact

MP5 Out

Edited June 18, 2005 by MP5

[khunlungphudhu]

My brother in law is a traffic cop......

So cough up fellas,

it is another sick buffalo I do not have to worry about!

[Ajarn]

If you insist on getting a receipt for an alleged driving offence, make sure you pay the fine at the police station yourself.

One Sunday, a cop claimed I was parked illegally. I wasn't, as a sign nearby said parking was allowed on a Sunday and there was still 10 minutes to go before midnight and the Sunday turned into a Monday.

He wanted 200 baht and I insisted on a timed and dated ticket which he angrily gave me while ignoring the 10 or 12 other vehicles parked in front and behind me. He also told me the police station would fine me 400 baht.

A couple of days later I came down with a bad case of 'flu and asked my housekeeper to drop by the police station, pay the 400 baht and pick up my licence while she was down at the market (the police station is across the road from the market).

She came back and gave me 100 baht and my licence. No receipt.

I asked her what happened.

She said the lady at the police station had said a receipt would cost 400 baht, but she could knock 100 baht off if a receipt wasn't required. My housekeeper (now my wife) thought that was a great deal and I wouldn't want to be so stupid as to give 100 baht away for nothing.

Ever had the feeling the odds are stacked against you and you just can't win?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I, too, would be happy to have saved 100 baht. What am I going to do with a receipt? Ask for reimbursement from somebody? Use it as a tax deduction next March?

I hope your (now) wife continues to help you try to adjust to life here. She sounds pretty smart to me.

[Camelot]

...but I was trying to make a stand against police corruption and found I just couldn't beat the system. There has to be a moral here somewhere.

Don't worry, I'm older and wiser now. That was a lesson learned. TIT.