No Tourist Visa For You!

[tropo]

If you have alot of money, transfer 800,000 baht and leave it in BAnkok Bank for 3 months, then go to penang and get Banana guest house to get your visa for you. I have done it that way with the Non O for the last 5 years and never had a problem.

If he has the money on an account he doesn't need to go to Penang. He can get his non-immigrant visa from any Immigration office in Thailand. I don't think the OP is short of cash because he thought nothing of flying to Vientiane return for 10,500 baht and didn't seem overly concerned it was for nothing.

[elliss]

I was in Phuket Immigration for a renewal just last week and left horrified by the dress code of foreigners living here. Not only do most look unclean, but the way they dress shows little self-respect and shows total disrespect for Thailand and its people. It is one big two fingers up to everyone.

I never leave the house without a proper shirt, trousers, socks and shoes. I am NOT a tourist, I live here, so no shorts, Chang vests and fake Crocs or flip flops for me. It is entirely unsuitable to wear beach clothes anywhere except the beach or at home around the pool. Sorry, but when Thais in menial jobs dress better than foreigners living here permanently, it is time to seriously look at just how much you have let your standards slip.

the uniform of respect , certainly helps , on offical buisness ..

[watcharacters]

I don't think I could trust an attorney who tweets.

dam_n i wish i had said that !

if ur 50 or older , just get the income letter from the US embassy , dress nice , be EXTREMELY polite (don't speak unless ur spoken to) and u might have the same luck i did in feb. when i got a 1-year extension based on retirement

Were you required to show a rental agreement for at least a 6 month period? I was knocked back because of this detail.

[passport220]

I had the same problem as the OP at the Vientiane Embassy the past. You have to be calm but firm with them and “demand” they process your application. I say “demand” as when I complained to the first clerk who accepts the applications (outside). He ask me if I “demand” they process that application...??? I said “yes, I demand it!”. It worked, they processed it on the the next step where I had to argue again.

Inside they told me they were going to deny my application because too many previous stays in Thailand. All of my paperwork was in order and there was no valid reason for them to deny the visa or require any additional paperwork that is not specified in law.

I was calm but firm, I kept telling them “I respect the law of Thailand, now YOU respect the law of Thailand and issue the visa!” In the end it worked, they issued the visa begrudgingly and told me they would not issue another one in the future.

I saw them turning away other western looking applicants or demanding paperwork for a non-immigrant visa to issue a tourist visa. “Possible suspicions” what a load of Micky Mouse crap! How do you prove a negative? How do I “prove” I am NOT working in Thailand? Frankly I was pissed off that they were treating me like a criminal and putting me in a position that I had to prove I was not. If they don't want tourists putting together tourist visas / visa wavers to stay in the country and extended period, act like a responsible government agency and make some clear rules, stop the Micky Mouse guessing games. Make the rules and I will follow them.

[Mario2008]

Issuing of a visa is up on the discretion of the consular officer. You don't have a right to a visa and even with a visa you can still be denied entry into the country.

[passport220]

Issuing of a visa is up on the discretion of the consular officer. You don't have a right to a visa and even with a visa you can still be denied entry into the country.

A load of crap. Although not always clear by appearances, Thailand does have a clear set of laws and a judicial process. You have the right to be treated fairly under the law. The consular officer has the discretion to make a determination if you are following the law, based on a clear and limited criteria – this is not just my option, it is the law. An Embassy / consular officer does not have the right to just pull something stupid out of their ass and apply it to your application. Edited May 31, 2010 by passport220

[lopburi3]

The Consulate has every right to make the decision they are payed to be making. The Immigration officer at the entry point can also make such a decision. Unless you are Thai they are the people allowing your entry. And the law itself allows for them to make such decisions (just as it does in every country).

This is the criteria used by Consulate officers.

11. According to the Immigration Act of Thailand B.E. 2522 (1979), foreigners who fall into any of the following categories are prohibited to enter Thailand:

(1) Having no genuine valid passport or document used in lieu of passport; or having a genuine valid passport or document used in lieu of passport without valid visa issuance by the Royal Thai Embassies, the Royal Thai Consulates-General or the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, with exception of those who meet visa exemption requirements. The terms and conditions of visa issuance and visa exemption are prescribed by the Ministerial Regulations.

(2) Having no appropriate means of living following entry into the Kingdom.

(3) Having entered the Kingdom to be employed as an unskilled or untrained labourer, or to work in violation of the Alien Work Permit Law.

(4) Being mentally unstable or having any of the diseases stated in the Ministerial Regulations.

(5) Having not yet been vaccinated against smallpox; or inoculated, or undergone any other medical treatment for protection against disease; and having refused to have such vaccinations administered by the Immigration Doctor.

(6) Having been imprisoned by judgment of the Thai Court; or by lawful injunction or judgment of the Court of a foreign country, except for when the penalty is for a petty offence, or negligence, or is provided for as an exception by the Ministerial Regulations.

(7) Having behaviour which could cause possible danger to the public; or having the likelihood of being a nuisance or constituting any violence to the peace, safety and security of the public or to the security of the nation; or being under warrant of arrest by competent officials of foreign governments.

(8) Reason to believe that entry into Kingdom is for the purpose of being involved in prostitution, the trafficking of women or children, drug smuggling, or other types of smuggling which are against public morality.

(9) Having no money or bond as prescribed by the Minister under Section 14 of the Immigration Act B.E. 2522 (1979).

(10) Being a person prohibited by the Minister under Section 16 of the Immigration Act B.E. 2522 (1979).

(11) Being deported by either the Government of Thailand or that of other foreign countries; or having been revoked the right of stay in the Kingdom or in foreign countries; or having been expelled from the Kingdom by competent officials at the expense of the Government of Thailand unless exemption is provided by the Minister on an individual basis.

[passport220]

The Consulate has every right to make the decision they are payed to be making. The Immigration officer at the entry point can also make such a decision. Unless you are Thai they are the people allowing your entry. And the law itself allows for them to make such decisions (just as it does in every country)...

Yes, based clearly on the law. As you then proceeded to post the enumerated law, where are we in disagreement? Where in the law does it say they can deny your visa application based on previous stays / tourist visas? If they add a number 12, I have no argument and I will follow the law as written. Edited May 31, 2010 by passport220

[lopburi3]

2 or 3 or 7 or 8 suspisions - it does not have to be proven - just as for the US to allow entry they must be convinced you will leave - no way you can prove that.

and probably 4 for some of us.

[moe666]

A visa is like a drivers license not a right but a privilage.

[passport220]

2 or 3 or 7 or 8 suspisions - it does not have to be proven - just as for the US to allow entry they must be convinced you will leave - no way you can prove that.

and probably 4 for some of us.

I am not saying they can not deny you a visa based on previous visas/stays. I said in my first post, I saw others turned away. I am saying it is not legal to do so! If they want to misapply one of the other criteria – oh! Maybe he has smallpox! They will do so. However, I do not have smallpox, and it is not a vaild reason to deny me a visa.

It seems to me at the heart of the matter is a conflict between governmental departments. It is easy enough to write rules stating a limit on the number of times you can enter / stay in Thailand on a tourist visa / visa waver. IT IS EASY! It is not being done as some elements of the government don't want it to be so (tourism officials, business interests, etc.). How stupid is it to hold up the general tourist with wasted time and money applying for visas in the meantime?

The point of my post is if you stand up for yourself during the visa application process and point out there is no valid reason to deny your visa (IT IS NOT IN THE LAW TO DENY YOU BASED ON PREVIOUS VISAS / STAYS), you have a chance that they will reconsider. Why will they reconsider? They know they are not denying you for reason x,y or z of the law, they are denying you for a reason OUTSIDE the law.

I suggest if you want a visa you are legally entitled to, in a calm, reasonable and polite way, put forward your argument. I wrote what my argument was, it is how I got my visa. My point is to try to help others who confront the same problem, YMMV, but it is what worked for me. Use the word "demand" (in a calm and polite way). I picked up that will get you on to the second step.

Edited May 31, 2010 by passport220

[Mario2008]

They can question the purpose of your visit, based on your previous visits.

[passport220]

They can question the purpose of your visit, based on your previous visits.

And they do. The question comes in the form of: “Are you working in Thailand?” Anwser: “No”.Next question.

[Tafia]

For an O-A visa, don't believe there is a requirement to have the 800,000 in a bank account in Thailand. As far as I know all embassies will issue when you have the money in the bank in your own country.

This is what I did (I had to show funds but not banked in Thailand) and for a multi entry visa, a border run just before it expires gives you another year, again without showing funds in Thailand

[thomo]

Have 4 double-entry TRs from Vientiane in my current passport.

No need for agents. All extremely easy and no hassle at all.

You gloat here that you won't have any problems with 4 tourist visas in your passport but you failed to mention that you're going with a brand new passport.

I'm not gloating. I'm stating facts.

I have 4 double entry TRs, all in a row, from Vientiane, in my current passport, no problems at all. Would be confidently going for my fifth but need to get my new passy before then.

You really should make it more clear so that people needing useful information won't be misled by your posts and think that going with 4 back-to-back tourist visas is no problem when in fact it is.

That isn't a fact. Stop stating your opinions as 'fact'. It may mislead people.

Edited May 31, 2010 by thomo

[Mario2008]

They can question the purpose of your visit, based on your previous visits.

And they do. The question comes in the form of: “Are you working in Thailand?” Anwser: “No”.Next question.

And the answer might not convince them, in which case they have the right to deny the request.

[thomo]

I or no one I know or have ever met has been asked a question, been refused, or received a red stamp.

[passport220]

They can question the purpose of your visit, based on your previous visits.

And they do. The question comes in the form of: "Are you working in Thailand?" Anwser: "No".Next question.

And the answer might not convince them, in which case they have the right to deny the request.

What convinces them? A 500baht note tucked into my passport? What about my or anyone appearance alone would give them reasonable suspicion that a person is working in Thailand? Once again I ask, how do I prove a negative? How do I prove I am not working in Thailand?

If immigration officers are just going to make arbitrary, unreasonable decisions they are open to be criticized as unreasonable. Maybe it is acceptable to you to be treated in an unreasonable way, not for me. If they make the rule clear, I will not waste my time and money applying for a visa I am not entitled to. Right now the rules are clear, you posted them earlier, there is no valid reason for denying a visa based on past visas alone. The way it is.

[Mario2008]

It is the same if you apply for a visa for the US or a Schengen visa for instance. The consular officer has discretion and so has the immigration officer. The burden of proof is on you, whether you like it or not, that is the way it is. All over the world.

[passport220]

It is the same if you apply for a visa for the US or a Schengen visa for instance. The consular officer has discretion and so has the immigration officer. The burden of proof is on you, whether you like it or not, that is the way it is. All over the world.

Not the first time you have brought it up, what does US policy have to do with anything on Thai Visa? If you want to debate US policy lets move it over to a US visa board.

As I said I successful challenged the policy at the Lao Embassy. I was successful for a reason. You listed the law in your post. I am making others aware of it. There is no reason to deny an application based solely on past visas.

The burden of proof to prove what? That I have had a past visa? If they are going to deny me a visa because I have past visas, fair enough, the “proof” that I have past visas is in my passport. If having a past visa is enough to deny an application, easy to understand and I accept the Thais have the right to make that rule. Just come out, and clearly say that is the rule so I and others don't waste time and money to travel to the Embassy to apply. Simple really.

[Hans Brix]

The Embassies and consulates might have more info than people think or just play percentages. When they refuse Philipinos. it may be because they think the majority are here working illegally as English teachers or whatever. Maybe they have actual imformation when they red stamp certain farangs. I just don't know. I do know that I lived in Thailand for 10 years on tourist visas from Penang, PP Cambo and Laos and never had a red stamp or problem. I did this from age 39 to 49. I never worked or even thought of working in Thailand and I have monthly money coming in from abroad. Also I never showed income or money in the bank ever. I used agents in Penang and bodia and went in myself in Laos (nightmare). Only reason I ever went to Laos was due to reports in this forum that Penang was a problem. Went to Penang in 2004 because cambo was a problem and so went the cycle. But worst thing that ever happened to me was not getting a triple entry in Penang after they switched over to singles only. Now I'm on a marriage visa so set for life I hope. but I just got that visa a month ago after 10 solid years of no problem tourist visas. Also I used the same passport for 9 of those 10 years and it had 96 pages crammed with stamps and visas and never a prob.

If people are having probs then why? this is the question. I understand the tropo wife situation as she is philipino but her probs are now sorted as he married her.

[thomo]

I understand the tropo wife situation as she is philipino but her probs are now sorted as he married her.

How does that help?

Are foreign wives able to get a special visa because they are married to a foreign tourist visiting here on a Tourist Visa?

Edited May 31, 2010 by thomo

[tropo]

I'm not gloating. I'm stating facts.

I have 4 double entry TRs, all in a row, from Vientiane, in my current passport, no problems at all. Would be confidently going for my fifth but need to get my new passy before then.

You really should make it more clear so that people needing useful information won't be misled by your posts and think that going with 4 back-to-back tourist visas is no problem when in fact it is.

That isn't a fact. Stop stating your opinions as 'fact'. It may mislead people.

You are gloating because you flippantly state that there is going to be absolutely no problem for you to get a 5th double entry tourist visa. This is not true because you are going with a new passport which means you are starting again with zero tourist visas in your passport. It's well known that they don't take into consideration tourist visas in an old passport. My gf got a new passport after having 6 TR's in her old passport and came away with a double entry TR in Vientiane. A large number of people have been going this 'new passport' route, especially the Asians who don't pay much for new passports.

It is a fact that there can be problems going for a tourist visa with 4 back-to-back already in passport (something you're not doing anyway). There are many reports about rejections, including in this very thread.

You're the one misleading people. I'm offering information so that people will not end up doing what others have done - go to Vientiane and cone back empty handed. Your posts come across as "4 back-to-back tourist visas from Vientiane - number 5 no worries at all". This is simply not true.

[tropo]

They can question the purpose of your visit, based on your previous visits.

And they do. The question comes in the form of: "Are you working in Thailand?" Anwser: "No".Next question.

And the answer might not convince them, in which case they have the right to deny the request.

What convinces them? A 500baht note tucked into my passport? What about my or anyone appearance alone would give them reasonable suspicion that a person is working in Thailand? Once again I ask, how do I prove a negative? How do I prove I am not working in Thailand?

If immigration officers are just going to make arbitrary, unreasonable decisions they are open to be criticized as unreasonable. Maybe it is acceptable to you to be treated in an unreasonable way, not for me. If they make the rule clear, I will not waste my time and money applying for a visa I am not entitled to. Right now the rules are clear, you posted them earlier, there is no valid reason for denying a visa based on past visas alone. The way it is.

Of course there is a reason for them to deny a visa based on past visas alone. The chances are very high that a person living in Thailand on back-to-back tourist visas is working. The younger the person the more likely.

It is quite reasonable for them to be suspicious of such people and the only way for you to convince them would be to "prove a negative" as you put it. (For example) Young people with enough money to live forever on tourist visas are few and far between.

It is not difficult to "prove a negative" in this case. If you have the money to live in Thailand on tourist visas then it shouldn't be difficult for you to show the source of your income and money. You could also show evidence of you withdrawing funds in Thailand to support your stay. This was a method some people used in Penang when they started getting tough.

Your pigheaded approach in Vientiane is going to make it harder on other applicants. It's quite possible that others suffered that day because of you as they took out their frustrations on other applicants. Asian officials don't appreciate arrogant Westerners.

[thomo]

You are gloating because you flippantly state that there is going to be absolutely no problem for you to get a 5th double entry tourist visa.

Got a link for that?

My gf got a new passport after having 6 TR's in her old passport.

6 TRs?

Wow. Isn't that against these 'rules' they have?

It is a fact that there can be problems going for a tourist visa with 4 back-to-back already in passport

Yes... can.

It is a fact there can be problems going with no TRs in your passport. No one is guaranteed any visa simply by applying for one.

That is fact.

You're the one misleading people.

Really? How's that? By stating the facts.

Currently have 4 TRs back to back.

Passy is full. Picking up a new one and then off to Vientiane.

No problems at all. No reason to suspect anything would be different even without my new passport.

Edited May 31, 2010 by thomo

[tropo]

You are gloating because you flippantly state that there is going to be absolutely no problem for you to get a 5th double entry tourist visa.

Got a link for that?

I'll do better. I'll post your quotes right here:

1. "Have 4 double-entry TRs from Vientiane in my current passport.

No need for agents. All extremely easy and no hassle at all." (post #44)

Note use of the words "extremely easy".

2. "I have 4 double entry TRs, all in a row, from Vientiane, in my current passport, no problems at all. Would be confidently going for my fifth but need to get my new passy before then." (post #76)

Note use of the word "confidently". Of course you'll never prove this because you'll have a new passport.

3. "I or no one I know or have ever met has been asked a question, been refused, or received a red stamp." (post #78)

This is a gem. "Head in the sand" is the only way to describe it.

4. "No problems at all. No reason to suspect anything would be different even without my new passport" (post #86)

Anyone with half-knowledge about the current visa situation in Vientiane would regard these statements as "flippant".

6 TRs?

Wow. Isn't that against these 'rules' they have?

Yes. If you read my reply you'll discover she was refused a visa.

Yes... can.

It is a fact there can be problems going with no TRs in your passport. No one is guaranteed any visa simply by applying for one.

That is fact.

Hallelujah

This is exactly what I've been saying the whole time. It is a fact that you can be refused and there are no guarantees. You really should read what you're replying to.

[passport220]

Of course there is a reason for them to deny a visa based on past visas alone. The chances are very high that a person living in Thailand on back-to-back tourist visas is working. The younger the person the more likely.

It is quite reasonable for them to be suspicious of such people and the only way for you to convince them would be to "prove a negative" as you put it. (For example) Young people with enough money to live forever on tourist visas are few and far between.

It is not difficult to "prove a negative" in this case. If you have the money to live in Thailand on tourist visas then it shouldn't be difficult for you to show the source of your income and money. You could also show evidence of you withdrawing funds in Thailand to support your stay. This was a method some people used in Penang when they started getting tough.

Your pigheaded approach in Vientiane is going to make it harder on other applicants. It's quite possible that others suffered that day because of you as they took out their frustrations on other applicants. Asian officials don't appreciate arrogant Westerners.

Pure nonsense. You make it sound like basic government administration is some kind of magic trick. In the end all the Embassy staff did was their job when they issued my visa, I could care less how they felt about it.

Of course there are people working in Thailand illegally on tourist visas. OK, if they make a rule "back-to-back" visas mean you are not allowed yet another visa, fine! I will not spend the time and money to travel and apply for the visa. If they make the rule to show income sources from outside Thailand as you say, FINE, great idea! Wow, that sounds not like magic, but some basic administrative guidelines to deal with the issue of illegal workers! I will prepare my income statements in a fashion to their liking and include it with my visa application. Unfortunately, that is not what we are dealing with! Right now it is more like a

What exactly is "pigheaded" about showing up to the Embassy with all of my paperwork in order and applying for a visa I am entitled to apply for? Did I "frustrate" them by asking them not to waste my two days of travel and expense and process my visa by their published guidelines? How exactly was I "arrogant" by asking them to honor to their published rules (broadcast on their website) on how tourist visas applications are to be prepared and processed?

I am not working in Thailand, 100% of the money I spend in Thailand comes from outside of Thailand. Is the Embassy staff going to know I am working illegally by just giving me the stink eye? I am not a criminal and I am offended to be assumed as one, without a shred of evidence or any due process. I respect Thai law, all I ask of the Embassy staff in Lao was to also respect Thai law and process my visa application according to Thai law. In the end they did and I got my visa. No magic tricks required.

Edited May 31, 2010 by passport220

[thomo]

I'll do better. I'll post your quotes right here:

Eh?

No where in any of those quotes does it say:

there is going to be absolutely no problem for you to get a 5th double entry tourist visa.

Yes... can.

It is a fact there can be problems going with no TRs in your passport. No one is guaranteed any visa simply by applying for one.

That is fact.

Hallelujah

This is exactly what I've been saying the whole time.

Liar.

You've been spouting that it is fact that it will be a problem... not that it can be.

Readers deserve the truth.

.....going with 4 back-to-back tourist visas is no problem when in fact it is.

Again. For any readers. It is not.

You really should read what you're replying to. Or at least not lie about it.

Edited May 31, 2010 by thomo

[thomo]

Note use of the words "extremely easy".

Please do.

Getting 4 double entry TRs in a row was exactly that.

Note use of the word "confidently".

Please do. I would go for my 5th in a row feeling exactly that.

This is a gem. "Head in the sand" is the only way to describe it.

Very odd description. As it's the truth based on the experience of having 4 in a row.

"No problems at all. No reason to suspect anything would be different even without my new passport"

Yup. Never had, never heard or never seen a single problem. Yet to see a reason that would prevent getting another.

Edited May 31, 2010 by thomo

[tropo]

Of course there is a reason for them to deny a visa based on past visas alone. The chances are very high that a person living in Thailand on back-to-back tourist visas is working. The younger the person the more likely.

It is quite reasonable for them to be suspicious of such people and the only way for you to convince them would be to "prove a negative" as you put it. (For example) Young people with enough money to live forever on tourist visas are few and far between.

It is not difficult to "prove a negative" in this case. If you have the money to live in Thailand on tourist visas then it shouldn't be difficult for you to show the source of your income and money. You could also show evidence of you withdrawing funds in Thailand to support your stay. This was a method some people used in Penang when they started getting tough.

Your pigheaded approach in Vientiane is going to make it harder on other applicants. It's quite possible that others suffered that day because of you as they took out their frustrations on other applicants. Asian officials don't appreciate arrogant Westerners.

Pure nonsense.

Which part was "pure nonsense"?

On another post to Mario2008 you replied:

"A load of crap." (post #67)

It's not surprising after reading your replies on here for someone to come to the conclusion that you're a pushy, arrogant and pigheaded individual who doesn't take "no" for an answer.

You're behaving that way at the Thai Consulate AND on here.