Unmasked: Thailand's Men In Black

[GungaDin]

BBC follow up in Isaan. Audio

Thawil - the Red Shirt Protester.

[way2muchcoffee]

The shooters on the skytrain were filmed in this video:

....

Insight, congratulations, you've just earned the "Red Propagandist" label here on thaivisa, some mysterious label they give you whenever you present fair and balanced opinions or evidence that casts a sliver of doubt on the government or Yellows, or more appropriately doesn't vehemently tow their cause.

At the :43 to :45 second time frame the soldier(s) appear to be wearing helmets and full fatigues in line with Army soldiers. We know that by this time the Army had already kicked out and crushed the last resistence of the Red Shirt rogue fighters -- hours before in fact, so it would make sense that there were not rogue Red fighters still wandering around on the skytrain tracks. We can also observe their body language and what we see are two men "on duty station", not hyped-up combatants who, if they really were Red Shirts, wouldn't have been "chilling out" on the tracks the way these guys were, aiming down and occasionally picking people off. They would have been in full combat mode, scrambling about under high tension, with enemy soldiers nearby. These guys however don't appear particularly stressed out.

Are the Yellow and Gov't defenders going to disappear from this thread?

Those men in the Skytrain tracks are most probably army soldiers and as far as I can see there's no actual shooting of weapons in the video. However that doesn't exculpate the red shirts from anything they did.

On what do you base this conclusion?

[AleG]

The shooters on the skytrain were filmed in this video:

....

Insight, congratulations, you've just earned the "Red Propagandist" label here on thaivisa, some mysterious label they give you whenever you present fair and balanced opinions or evidence that casts a sliver of doubt on the government or Yellows, or more appropriately doesn't vehemently tow their cause.

At the :43 to :45 second time frame the soldier(s) appear to be wearing helmets and full fatigues in line with Army soldiers. We know that by this time the Army had already kicked out and crushed the last resistence of the Red Shirt rogue fighters -- hours before in fact, so it would make sense that there were not rogue Red fighters still wandering around on the skytrain tracks. We can also observe their body language and what we see are two men "on duty station", not hyped-up combatants who, if they really were Red Shirts, wouldn't have been "chilling out" on the tracks the way these guys were, aiming down and occasionally picking people off. They would have been in full combat mode, scrambling about under high tension, with enemy soldiers nearby. These guys however don't appear particularly stressed out.

Are the Yellow and Gov't defenders going to disappear from this thread?

Those men in the Skytrain tracks are most probably army soldiers and as far as I can see there's no actual shooting of weapons in the video. However that doesn't exculpate the red shirts from anything they did.

On what do you base this conclusion?

On the clothes they are wearing, but most importantly that on the 19th I don't think any group of black shirts could have gone up the Skytrain rails because the army was occupying (as far as I know) the stations on either side of that place.

[Ulysses G.]

The shooters on the skytrain were filmed in this video:

....

Insight, congratulations, you've just earned the "Red Propagandist" label here on thaivisa, some mysterious label they give you whenever you present fair and balanced opinions or evidence that casts a sliver of doubt on the government or Yellows, or more appropriately doesn't vehemently tow their cause.

At the :43 to :45 second time frame the soldier(s) appear to be wearing helmets and full fatigues in line with Army soldiers. We know that by this time the Army had already kicked out and crushed the last resistence of the Red Shirt rogue fighters -- hours before in fact, so it would make sense that there were not rogue Red fighters still wandering around on the skytrain tracks. We can also observe their body language and what we see are two men "on duty station", not hyped-up combatants who, if they really were Red Shirts, wouldn't have been "chilling out" on the tracks the way these guys were, aiming down and occasionally picking people off. They would have been in full combat mode, scrambling about under high tension, with enemy soldiers nearby. These guys however don't appear particularly stressed out.

Are the Yellow and Gov't defenders going to disappear from this thread?

Don't worry, you win the award for bull goose "Red Propagandist" as most of us can't see any of the things that you claim to see. It is clear that there are some people with rifles there however.

[Beltre]

What is the date and time of the video?

Also, there's no shooting done by any of the people in the video, whoever they are.

[way2muchcoffee]

On the clothes they are wearing, but most importantly that on the 19th I don't think any group of black shirts could have gone up the Skytrain rails because the army was occupying (as far as I know) the stations on either side of that place.

Fair enough response. We have, however, seen video of opposition teams with some members wearing camo. Personally I can't make out what they are wearing. It could be army green, but the video isn't clear enough to tell. As far as getting up on the tracks, I don't think that would be difficult at all. I'm not certain if army was holding both Chid Lom and Siam. Perhaps they were, but I am unaware of the full facts of army operations and positions. There is one further complication in that we don't know when this video was taken. Consequently, I won't rush to judgment on who these guys were and when the video was taken. It could very well be army personnel and it is equally possible that they were not.

Edited June 4, 2010 by way2muchcoffee

[Insight]

The shooters on the skytrain were filmed in this video:

....

Insight, congratulations, you've just earned the "Red Propagandist" label here on thaivisa, some mysterious label they give you whenever you present fair and balanced opinions or evidence that casts a sliver of doubt on the government or Yellows, or more appropriately doesn't vehemently tow their cause.

At the :43 to :45 second time frame the soldier(s) appear to be wearing helmets and full fatigues in line with Army soldiers. We know that by this time the Army had already kicked out and crushed the last resistence of the Red Shirt rogue fighters -- hours before in fact, so it would make sense that there were not rogue Red fighters still wandering around on the skytrain tracks. We can also observe their body language and what we see are two men "on duty station", not hyped-up combatants who, if they really were Red Shirts, wouldn't have been "chilling out" on the tracks the way these guys were, aiming down and occasionally picking people off. They would have been in full combat mode, scrambling about under high tension, with enemy soldiers nearby. These guys however don't appear particularly stressed out.

Are the Yellow and Gov't defenders going to disappear from this thread?

Frankly I don't see the point in twisting any evidence. There's already a tonne of the stuff out there now suggesting the red shirts were armed and some were wearing military-style camouflaged gear.

IMHO, in context it's borderline absurd to suggest that after spending two months attempting to reach a peaceful solution the army would be sent in to pick out medical personnel in a temple declared as a safe zone. This video is not a "smoking gun" to say its the reds or the army shooting at the temple.

The "Watch Red Shirt" Facebook group has tonnes of this stuff however, including a photo showing lots of armed looking people congregated on a rooftop, along with a collage identifying the red shirt in camouflage (with one photo with him standing near none other than Gen Chavalit).

Personally suspect lots more interesting evidence will come to surface in the next few weeks...

[saintofsilence]

Photo of Mib in army green

http://yfrog.com/5cudyfj

Edited June 4, 2010 by saintofsilence

[rabo]

On the clothes they are wearing, but most importantly that on the 19th I don't think any group of black shirts could have gone up the Skytrain rails because the army was occupying (as far as I know) the stations on either side of that place.

Fair enough response. We have, however, seen video of opposition teams with some members wearing camo. Personally I can't make out what they are wearing. It could be army green, but the video isn't clear enough to tell. As far as getting up on the tracks, I don't think that would be difficult at all. I'm not certain if army was holding both Chid Lom and Siam. Perhaps they were, but I am unaware of the full facts of army operations and positions. There is one further complication in that we don't know when this video was taken. Consequently, I won't rush to judgment on who these guys were and when the video was taken. It could very well be army personnel and it is equally possible that they were not.

Yes, it is far from obvious they these people are wearing army uniforms, it's not obvious they are not.

There have been reports that reds/blacks have worn army like cloths.

It's possible they would do so in a operation to discredit the government.

It's also not obvious that government snipers would wear army green.

Only one guy has this white/light colored thing on his back. (this would be interesting to find another example elsewhere)

According to Anupong, the entire area was not army property till the next day.

The government is known to tell the truth when it's a good idea.

Conclusion, the probability is therefore 55 to 45, one way or the other.

There is also a 66+27i chance the guy on the left is Arisman precisely at the point he becomes both real and fake.

Edited June 4, 2010 by rabo

[rixalex]

I don't think any group of black shirts could have gone up the Skytrain rails because the army was occupying (as far as I know) the stations on either side of that place.

It's a railway line. It's not necessary to use the stations on either side of that place. You could use any station. Of course that might mean a long walk which, granted, Thais are not known to be keen on.

Let's just say it's not an impossibility though.

[Rucharee]

On the clothes they are wearing, but most importantly that on the 19th I don't think any group of black shirts could have gone up the Skytrain rails because the army was occupying (as far as I know) the stations on either side of that place.

Fair enough response. We have, however, seen video of opposition teams with some members wearing camo. Personally I can't make out what they are wearing. It could be army green, but the video isn't clear enough to tell. As far as getting up on the tracks, I don't think that would be difficult at all. I'm not certain if army was holding both Chid Lom and Siam. Perhaps they were, but I am unaware of the full facts of army operations and positions. There is one further complication in that we don't know when this video was taken. Consequently, I won't rush to judgment on who these guys were and when the video was taken. It could very well be army personnel and it is equally possible that they were not.

Agree that some MiB wearing camo. But i have not seen an MiB wear helmet before. The people in the photos, to me, wear helmet.

[Rucharee]

I don't think any group of black shirts could have gone up the Skytrain rails because the army was occupying (as far as I know) the stations on either side of that place.

It's a railway line. It's not necessary to use the stations on either side of that place. You could use any station. Of course that might mean a long walk which, granted, Thais are not known to be keen on.

Let's just say it's not an impossibility though.

Any you have to walk pass the station on either side, BEFORE DARK, which is not possible without raising alarms.

[rixalex]

I don't think any group of black shirts could have gone up the Skytrain rails because the army was occupying (as far as I know) the stations on either side of that place.

It's a railway line. It's not necessary to use the stations on either side of that place. You could use any station. Of course that might mean a long walk which, granted, Thais are not known to be keen on.

Let's just say it's not an impossibility though.

Any you have to walk pass the station on either side, BEFORE DARK, which is not possible without raising alarms.

What alarms?

[TAWP]

Bullet that killed Seh Daeng was govt type

By The Nation

BANGKOK: -- A House committee on military believes that the bullet that killed MajGeneral Khattiya Sawasdipol, a rogue military officer and a prominent member of the redshirt movement, is the sort used by the government.

The committee's chairman Colonel Somchai Pesprasert, a Pheu Thai MP, made the announcement yesterday. He was speaking after he summoned some senior policemen to testify on Khattiya's case.

/../

Major Songpol Iamboonrat, adviser to the committee, believed a P90 rifle might have been used to gun down Khattiya.

"It has great precision and its bullets can cut through soft armour," he said. Songpol used to work at the Royal Thai Army's Ordnance Department.

So he is saying the shooter was within 50 meters of Seh Daeng?

I mean, the P90 is NOT a rifle, unless he is referring to some very unusual labeling, and is used in a CQB fashion.

http://world.guns.ru/smg/smg13-e.htm

[Ulysses G.]

Agree that some MiB wearing camo. But i have not seen an MiB wear helmet before. The people in the photos, to me, wear helmet.

A number of redshirts were wearing motorcycle helmets to hide their identities or protect them from shrapnel or both.

Edited June 4, 2010 by Ulysses G.

[rabo]

Bullet that killed Seh Daeng was govt type

By The Nation

BANGKOK: -- A House committee on military believes that the bullet that killed MajGeneral Khattiya Sawasdipol, a rogue military officer and a prominent member of the redshirt movement, is the sort used by the government.

The committee's chairman Colonel Somchai Pesprasert, a Pheu Thai MP, made the announcement yesterday. He was speaking after he summoned some senior policemen to testify on Khattiya's case.

/../

Major Songpol Iamboonrat, adviser to the committee, believed a P90 rifle might have been used to gun down Khattiya.

"It has great precision and its bullets can cut through soft armour," he said. Songpol used to work at the Royal Thai Army's Ordnance Department.

So he is saying the shooter was within 50 meters of Seh Daeng?

I mean, the P90 is NOT a rifle, unless he is referring to some very unusual labeling, and is used in a CQB fashion.

http://world.guns.ru/smg/smg13-e.htm

A couple of days after Seh Daeng was shot there was a report, I thought from the hospital but not necessarily credible, the bullet had been a .308. Now this P90 with its weird 5.7x28 round.

I would like to know how anyone knows what round was used if they didn't recover the bullet?

The key to this article are the words "believed it might have been", so it means they don't know, and the information comes from a Peua Thai MP. Note also the guess comes from an an army ordinance guy who mentions the gun's armor piercing abilities. Where's the logic? Unless Seh Daeng was thicker headed than we thought.

Edited June 4, 2010 by rabo

[Robby nz]

Were'nt most of the rifles and amunition the reds had 'Govt type' that they had stolen from the army?

There are also the 6000 pieces of ordanance, what ever they were, that dissapeared from the army base in the south.

A lot of the recovered weapons were also Govt type.

Wrote something on this way back but cant find it now so:

It would seem that both sides had reason to go after Sae Daeng.

The Govt could be thinking that to take out the commander would be a good thing and would cause disorganisation but as it turned out the troops were well trained and could still fight without him.

But consider the Govt and army would likely have prefered to see him captured and court marshalled than die to become a martyr.

The red leaders had reason to fear Sae Daeng as he had threatned (on TV) to shoot any of the leaders who defected and he was also acting as a direct link to Thaksin while the other leaders were trying to distance themselves from Thaksin who was also trying to keep in the background.

So who had the most to gain from his death?

The Govt really gained very little maybe even would lose if it could be proved they ordered his killing.

The reds however had a direct threat removed and also the link to Thaksin that they were trying to hide. Then of course they gained a martyr at no real cost to themselves.

There is also the possibility of a third party sent to get him. By who??????????????

[Rucharee]

Were'nt most of the rifles and amunition the reds had 'Govt type' that they had stolen from the army?

There are also the 6000 pieces of ordanance, what ever they were, that dissapeared from the army base in the south.

A lot of the recovered weapons were also Govt type.

Wrote something on this way back but cant find it now so:

It would seem that both sides had reason to go after Sae Daeng.

The Govt could be thinking that to take out the commander would be a good thing and would cause disorganisation but as it turned out the troops were well trained and could still fight without him.

But consider the Govt and army would likely have prefered to see him captured and court marshalled than die to become a martyr.

The red leaders had reason to fear Sae Daeng as he had threatned (on TV) to shoot any of the leaders who defected and he was also acting as a direct link to Thaksin while the other leaders were trying to distance themselves from Thaksin who was also trying to keep in the background.

So who had the most to gain from his death?

The Govt really gained very little maybe even would lose if it could be proved they ordered his killing.

The reds however had a direct threat removed and also the link to Thaksin that they were trying to hide. Then of course they gained a martyr at no real cost to themselves.

There is also the possibility of a third party sent to get him. By who??????????????

The red-shirt stole army bullets. Use that to should Seh Daeng, so they can blame the army.

Simple trick.

[rabo]

The red-shirt stole army bullets. Use that to should Seh Daeng, so they can blame the army.

Simple trick.

Things are not always so simple in Thailand. Perhaps....

.... the army shot him with army bullets to make it look like the reds stole army bullets to shoot him to make it look like the army shot him, to make it look like the reds shot him..

Or, the reds stole army bullets and shot him to make it look like the army shot him with army bullets to make it look like the reds stole army bullets to shoot him to make it look like the army shot him, to make it look like the reds shot him, to make it look like the army shot him.

Or, he was shot by both reds and army precisely when Arisman became both real and fake firing both real and fake bullets that miraculously passed through the same hole, one of which, the .308, was found by real doctors at the hospital and the other, the P90, was found by the fake army ordinance officer and reported it to a real Peua Thai MP just as he became the fake committee head, thus creating balance.

Edited June 4, 2010 by rabo

[rubl]

The red-shirt stole army bullets. Use that to should Seh Daeng, so they can blame the army.

Simple trick.

Things are not always so simple in Thailand. Perhaps....

.... the army shot him with army bullets to make it look like the reds stole army bullets to shoot him to make it look like the army shot him, to make it look like the reds shot him..

Or, the reds stole army bullets and shot him to make it look like the army shot him with army bullets to make it look like the reds stole army bullets to shoot him to make it look like the army shot him, to make it look like the reds shot him, to make it look like the army shot him.

Or, he was shot by both reds and army precisely when Arisman became both real and fake firing both real and fake bullets that miraculously passed through the same hole, one of which, the .308, was found by real doctors at the hospital and the other, the P90, was found by the fake army ordinance officer and reported it to a real Peua Thai MP just as he became the fake committee head, thus creating balance.

Deja Vu ! Murder by Death, 1976

[chantorn]

The red-shirt stole army bullets. Use that to should Seh Daeng, so they can blame the army.

Simple trick.

Things are not always so simple in Thailand. Perhaps....

.... the army shot him with army bullets to make it look like the reds stole army bullets to shoot him to make it look like the army shot him, to make it look like the reds shot him..

Or, the reds stole army bullets and shot him to make it look like the army shot him with army bullets to make it look like the reds stole army bullets to shoot him to make it look like the army shot him, to make it look like the reds shot him, to make it look like the army shot him.

Or, he was shot by both reds and army precisely when Arisman became both real and fake firing both real and fake bullets that miraculously passed through the same hole, one of which, the .308, was found by real doctors at the hospital and the other, the P90, was found by the fake army ordinance officer and reported it to a real Peua Thai MP just as he became the fake committee head, thus creating balance.

Deja Vu ! Murder by Death, 1976

rabo, I think you got it spot on.

Um..... which one you you just said?

[mazeltov]

another clip. core leader of the anti government protest caught on video and can be clearly linked to the BLACK SHIRTS 4:30.

pay also attention at the kid at 1:35, building the barricade.

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