Can Buddhism Save Thailand?

[christiaan]

Hello Rockyysdt

My words are from study and experience.

I have studied many things in my life, especially religions.

But one of the most impressive studies I did was about Nikola Tesla (biography), it is just a pitty there is too little known about Tesla because it could give some more insight regarding enligtment.

(Do Buddhists study about other interesting subjects like Tesla and juggling, or woodworking?)

I completely agree with you, when you write " we are all of us in danger of adopting others beliefs through what we read, without the insight of personal experience".

But you can count on your Self when you are active in your awareness, your intuitive knowing, your intelligence, your abbillity to ask questions to "the world" and to your self.

You do not need to have the experience itself to know you will drown when you would try to swimm across a wild river.

I also find many things interesting, in fact : What is not interesting, everything is.

So I also like to verify by material and spiritual experience.

With regards to this I still am happy I - amongst others - have learned to know and even meet Krishnamurti - who strongly rejected any discipel behaviour and followers.

I studied many of his talks and writings and admire him as a spirit searching for truth and knowledge as we do.

I noticed I feel well by 'teachers' who firmly advise not to believe anything they tell, and to investigate by your self and think independently.

One could look up on other beliefs and opinions like the stepping stones in a river to cross, every stone can give you some support for some time but do not dwell to long on a stepping stone for you will never cross the river.

I 'sometimes' feel without attachment but not because exclusively Buddha taught me so.

There have been more enlighted spirits teaching me and........................................................... I am a self educator by awareness, I am.

[christiaan]

Sabaijai

It s very interesting to know Phra V Wahiramethi published a book that direcly adresses the questions from a modern Buddhist perspective.

It is a pitty I still cannot read Thai but I understand he writes about democracy as part of the solutions for Thailand.

You write the gist of the message is that democracy starts in the heart and mind. But because people are flawed (have kilesa), the system they create is flawed, and the only way to bring the system closer to perfect is to bring the individual closer to perfect.

You haven't read all of the book and I wonder how Buddhisme in Phra V Wahiramethi vision could bring Thai individual closer to perfect so they come closer to real democracy.

Becos as far as I know there is 'some kind of democracy' in Thailand that is not workling cos most of the Thai individuals seem to be ruled by (shortsighted) personal interest.

Probably all of us agree with the heading as you refer to but it just seems to be the problem this kind of awareness is not reached by most of the Thai.

It would be nice when you would keep us informed , reading the book, to tell us more about it.

Thank you.

[Xangsamhua]

Returning to the original topic, Phra V Wachiramethi is an up-and-coming Buddhist reformer (in the sense of teaching more empirically, and declaiming superstition, money merit-making, folk myths and so on) on the scene who is reminiscent of P A Payuttho and Than Buddhasa in his approach, which he calls 'applied dhamma.'

For anyone that reads Thai, he published a book very recently called Santimankha pheua Santiprachatibodai (สันติมรรคาเพื่อสันติประชาธิปไตย The Path of Peace for Peace and Democracy) that directly addresses the question from a modern Buddhist perspective. The gist of the message - and I haven't read all of the book yet - is that democracy starts in the heart and mind. Because people are flawed (have kilesa), the systems they create are flawed, and the only way to bring the systems closer to perfect is to bring the individual closer to perfect, while in the meantime maintaining a firm practice of non-harm and non-violence. He further suggests that it is every citizen's duty to get involved in politics and participate fully in building an improved democratic system.

One section that caught my attention begins with the heading "A vote made mindfully is a democratic vote," which develops into the notion that if one votes for what is best for society at large rather than what might appear to be best in the short term for one's self, then a truly democratic society is served.

Whether the book and its ideas will have any noticeable impact in Thailand remains to be seen, but it is apparently selling well.

From what I understand, Phra Vor is a refreshing new influence in Thai Buddhism. At a school of my acquaintance he was able to maintain the interest of Grade 5 and 6 children for an extended period - quite a feat really. But it was annoying to see the videoimages of him in discussion with Khunying Pornthip, he on a chair and she on the ground next to him. Seems we can't break out of that kind of demeaning positioning in this country unless the Sangha leads the way, which it won't.

Does the Sangha's failure to lead, in this and other respects, reflect its own limitations or its enthralment to (entrapment by) the culture in which the Sangha has found itself over the past thousand years or so, buttressed by the Brahmin influence on political and religious structures and identities in the Ayutthaya period. And to what extend is the "individual" a construct of a very hierarchical and patronage-based social structure?

I suppose we have to ground our proposals in something, so we talk about the "individual" and "society" as though they are separate and qualitatively different agents. But the Buddhist notion of interdependence would render a statement such as "the only way to bring the systems closer to perfect is to bring the individual closer to perfect" a little simplistic, wouldn't it?

Individuals may change and move towards perfection to an extent, but for a widespread move towards responsible citizenship in Thailand, defined in this context as "votes for what is best for society at large rather than what might appear to be best in the short term for one's self", much would have to be happening within the leadership strata and civic structures of the Thai nation (government, administration, education institutions, military, law-enforcement, etc.), that encourages civic-mindedness and the sometimes challenging right to critique that is at the heart of responsible democratic citizenship. This is happening at a very slow pace within the formal structures and is often enough cancelled out by contrary example given by key players within and outside the formal structures.

The Thai Sangha is an important element within the leadership strata in this country - people are impressed by the notable exemplars among the clergy. There is much more widespread affection for (admittedly pre-modern) Luangpors and Luangpus than for previous prime ministers, but the models within the Sangha for responsible citizenship are thin on the ground, especially as long as the clerical leadership regards responsible citizenship as nothing much to do with them, and casts the problems of democracy back to the "individual" without critiquing the social structures and practices of the leadership strata that guide them.

Had Phra Vor made a DVD in which he and Khunying Pornthip had both sat on chairs and addressed each other as adult to adult rather than adult to child he would have been making a much stronger statement about democracy, human equality and civic responsibility than just exhorting the individual to vote mindfully. But he didn't.

[rockyysdt]

Returning to the original topic, Phra V Wachiramethi is an up-and-coming Buddhist reformer (in the sense of teaching more empirically, and declaiming superstition, money merit-making, folk myths and so on) on the scene who is reminiscent of P A Payuttho and Than Buddhasa in his approach, which he calls 'applied dhamma.'

For anyone that reads Thai, he published a book very recently called Santimankha pheua Santiprachatibodai (สันติมรรคาเพื่อสันติประชาธิปไตย The Path of Peace for Peace and Democracy) that directly addresses the question from a modern Buddhist perspective. The gist of the message - and I haven't read all of the book yet - is that democracy starts in the heart and mind. Because people are flawed (have kilesa), the systems they create are flawed, and the only way to bring the systems closer to perfect is to bring the individual closer to perfect, while in the meantime maintaining a firm practice of non-harm and non-violence. He further suggests that it is every citizen's duty to get involved in politics and participate fully in building an improved democratic system.

One section that caught my attention begins with the heading "A vote made mindfully is a democratic vote," which develops into the notion that if one votes for what is best for society at large rather than what might appear to be best in the short term for one's self, then a truly democratic society is served.

Whether the book and its ideas will have any noticeable impact in Thailand remains to be seen, but it is apparently selling well.

At the village l used to frequent people would refer to me as the teacher.

I learned that many thought l was a teacher due to the reading glasses l'd wear.

It dawned on me that many villagers can't afford reading glasses let alone optometry consultations.

For millions of disenfranchised in the community Santimankha pheua Santiprachatibodai will probably go unread.

Edited August 1, 2010 by rockyysdt

[christiaan]

What would have happened when Phra Vor would have come from his chair and sit on the ground too? Why did he not do? Can he do?

Is he ' allowed' to do so?

I would say one does not have the awareness when one is not making any movement in this.

In my opinion it would have been an atmost buddhist gesture if he would have come of his chair and sat down as Khunying Pornthip.

Karma in action. Conming closer to perfect, do not talk about it but act towards it.

Does he dream in this kind of actions non-actions?

[sabaijai]

Returning to the original topic, Phra V Wachiramethi is an up-and-coming Buddhist reformer (in the sense of teaching more empirically, and declaiming superstition, money merit-making, folk myths and so on) on the scene who is reminiscent of P A Payuttho and Than Buddhasa in his approach, which he calls 'applied dhamma.'

For anyone that reads Thai, he published a book very recently called Santimankha pheua Santiprachatibodai (สันติมรรคาเพื่อสันติประชาธิปไตย The Path of Peace for Peace and Democracy) that directly addresses the question from a modern Buddhist perspective. The gist of the message - and I haven't read all of the book yet - is that democracy starts in the heart and mind. Because people are flawed (have kilesa), the systems they create are flawed, and the only way to bring the systems closer to perfect is to bring the individual closer to perfect, while in the meantime maintaining a firm practice of non-harm and non-violence. He further suggests that it is every citizen's duty to get involved in politics and participate fully in building an improved democratic system.

One section that caught my attention begins with the heading "A vote made mindfully is a democratic vote," which develops into the notion that if one votes for what is best for society at large rather than what might appear to be best in the short term for one's self, then a truly democratic society is served.

Whether the book and its ideas will have any noticeable impact in Thailand remains to be seen, but it is apparently selling well.

From what I understand, Phra Vor is a refreshing new influence in Thai Buddhism. At a school of my acquaintance he was able to maintain the interest of Grade 5 and 6 children for an extended period - quite a feat really. But it was annoying to see the videoimages of him in discussion with Khunying Pornthip, he on a chair and she on the ground next to him. Seems we can't break out of that kind of demeaning positioning in this country unless the Sangha leads the way, which it won't.

Does the Sangha's failure to lead, in this and other respects, reflect its own limitations or its enthralment to (entrapment by) the culture in which the Sangha has found itself over the past thousand years or so, buttressed by the Brahmin influence on political and religious structures and identities in the Ayutthaya period. And to what extend is the "individual" a construct of a very hierarchical and patronage-based social structure?

I suppose we have to ground our proposals in something, so we talk about the "individual" and "society" as though they are separate and qualitatively different agents. But the Buddhist notion of interdependence would render a statement such as "the only way to bring the systems closer to perfect is to bring the individual closer to perfect" a little simplistic, wouldn't it?

Individuals may change and move towards perfection to an extent, but for a widespread move towards responsible citizenship in Thailand, defined in this context as "votes for what is best for society at large rather than what might appear to be best in the short term for one's self", much would have to be happening within the leadership strata and civic structures of the Thai nation (government, administration, education institutions, military, law-enforcement, etc.), that encourages civic-mindedness and the sometimes challenging right to critique that is at the heart of responsible democratic citizenship. This is happening at a very slow pace within the formal structures and is often enough cancelled out by contrary example given by key players within and outside the formal structures.

The Thai Sangha is an important element within the leadership strata in this country - people are impressed by the notable exemplars among the clergy. There is much more widespread affection for (admittedly pre-modern) Luangpors and Luangpus than for previous prime ministers, but the models within the Sangha for responsible citizenship are thin on the ground, especially as long as the clerical leadership regards responsible citizenship as nothing much to do with them, and casts the problems of democracy back to the "individual" without critiquing the social structures and practices of the leadership strata that guide them.

Had Phra Vor made a DVD in which he and Khunying Pornthip had both sat on chairs and addressed each other as adult to adult rather than adult to child he would have been making a much stronger statement about democracy, human equality and civic responsibility than just exhorting the individual to vote mindfully. But he didn't.

Sounds like you're criticising the form rather than the content Were you able to understand what he said?

Having sat next to Than Wo several times, both of us on chairs, I can confidently say it appears to make no difference to him. I'm sure that sitting on the floor was Khun Pornthip's choice, and is the way most Thai Buddhsit would like to be seen with a famous monk.

[sabaijai]

Sabaijai

It s very interesting to know Phra V Wahiramethi published a book that direcly adresses the questions from a modern Buddhist perspective.

It is a pitty I still cannot read Thai but I understand he writes about democracy as part of the solutions for Thailand.

You write the gist of the message is that democracy starts in the heart and mind. But because people are flawed (have kilesa), the system they create is flawed, and the only way to bring the system closer to perfect is to bring the individual closer to perfect.

You haven't read all of the book and I wonder how Buddhisme in Phra V Wahiramethi vision could bring Thai individual closer to perfect so they come closer to real democracy.

Becos as far as I know there is 'some kind of democracy' in Thailand that is not workling cos most of the Thai individuals seem to be ruled by (shortsighted) personal interest.

Probably all of us agree with the heading as you refer to but it just seems to be the problem this kind of awareness is not reached by most of the Thai.

It would be nice when you would keep us informed , reading the book, to tell us more about it.

Thank you.

I'll try. I've thought of offering to translate it into English, as so far it's one of my favourites. Another is 'Kilesa Management.'

[sabaijai]

Sort of along the same lines, Thich Nhat Hanh and Stephane Kazak have advocated being "mindfully green."

Mindfully Green: Can Buddhism Save the Planet?