Most Thai Teachers Fail In Their Own Subjects

[Slip]

When you see results like this you have to ask what was wrong with the test. Many years ago I was talking to a guy who was teaching introductory accounting in English at a newly opened Thai university (St. John's, if it matters). He was telling me the Thai University Affairs Office, which set the curriculum standards, required him to create final exam questions of a level of difficulty he would expect to find on the United States CPA (Certified Public Accountant) exam -- an exam taken after a person has studied accounting for four years and worked at least two years in the field. In other words, the people writing the test questions were not trying to discover how much of the material that had been presented to the students they had learned, they were simply trying to create a barrier to success so that the only students who could get a passing grade were those who cheated or those who got favorable treatment one way or another. I'll bet this exam was the same.

By the way, when I was trying to teach high school mathematics in English, I couldn't get a copy of the curriculum in English, so I bought a number of the books students use to cram for the university entrance exams. The topics covered included things like symbolic logic, calculus, and trigonometric equations. Since the school week allowed for four hours a week of study over three years, I can guarantee no students could have learned all that subject matter.

So the problem is with the people making the tests. It may be true that many Thai teachers really do not know their subject matter, but the tests are not properly designed to show that. Any time you have 80% of testees "fail", your criteria for failure are not valid.

[My bold]- Yes indeed Acharn, as any teacher worth his salt knows. Presumably not this lot then Competence seems to be inversely proportional to position in the food chain in Thai education.

[elliss]

Not good enough..Who are teaching the teachers??

thai professors ,, bad joke

[dgotrek]

I would like to make a few suggestions:

1. Please use Speall Cheeck when you see a red line below your words.
2. Proofread your comments.
3. Realize that some American English is actually closer to original English than modern UK English is. Both forms have diverged by adding new elements and retained different older elements.
4. Most US and UK English speakers can quickly understand and read the different versions of English.
5. Australians have also diverged as have many other "Native Speaker" English groups.

As an American, I ask classes which version of English they want. Is it to be US or UK? I can provide slightly Southern accented US or RP UK for speaking. I can do this as well for grammar and spelling. I ask my class to choose one and always be consistent. I do not advocate either version. In fact, many students first assume that I am from the UK. Interestingly, most of them ask for American before I mention my home country. I will not speculate why. As a university teacher and editor, my job is to provide the proper product to the proper person.

(End of Pompous English Rant) If you are offended, that is great!

Regarding Thai teachers, they are not paid much, deprived of resources, and face many other difficult hurdles. Some of them are amazingly good while others are horrifically terrible. I have observed that seems to be the norm for people in such situations in several different jobs and countries. After six years of secondary and tertiary teaching, I have seen idealists, timeservers, cynics and fabulous teachers. This applies to both native speakers and nonnative speakers.

My biggest questions regard the validity and methodology of the Thai teacher test. Selective use of statistics can be used to support nearly any statement. Red roses are not red. They are yellow. Grass is not green. It is blue. How can this be?

Leave information out of your report as follows: Our observers were red-green color blind people.

Viola, your statements look valid. This simple method is often perpetrated on a grand scale every day in the media and in world of bad science.

Thailand has a lot of work to do in education, but so does most of the rest of the world. My daughter in the USA has been to two wonderful schools and one that nearly made me put her in private school. Next year, she will attend a better public school.

The dreadful school is in one of the most affluent American counties. When my teacher friends and I examined the assignments and discussed what occurred in class, we saw the system and curriculum are the primary problems. The materials are old and focus mainly on passing the state tests while the tightly controlled teachers are uninspired and frustrated. We can thank George W for the No One Left Behind program.

Alright, it's time for you to find any grammatical mistakes I made, and you can also commence flaming.

Edited June 10, 2010 by dgotrek

[elliss]

If Thai TV was less protected and more open to foreign programs it would have a major effect on improving listening skills.

yep ,

take, chinese TV channel nine , as an example .

all english dialogue .

[souvenirdeparis]

The article is a very brief report. I suspect it is inaccurate or misleading. I would need to know more. As some people have pointed out, we don't know what the tests were like. The report suggests that they were the same as those done by the students, but this has been challenged. I wonder about the numbers. 37,500 directors of secondary schools? There are nowhere near that number of secondary schools in the country. There are probably about that many primary and secondary schools together (based on 2005 Ministry of Education data).

Yes, we all know about Thai people's difficulties with English. There are very clear historical reasons for this and it's only been in the past 20 years that Thailand has been addressing the issues. It'll take a while yet before Thailand catches up to the ex-colonial countries. Incidentally, the last comparative data I saw for TOEFL (2005) showed that Thailand had the weakest scores of all ASEAN nations, but was doing better than Japan!

""" difficulties with English. There are very clear historical reasons for this and it's only been in the past 20 years that Thailand has been addressing the issues."""

I read a 1964 UNESCO magazine (devoted to world wide education )with a very positive article on the training of Thaï teachers, with pictures of the same language lab I used at uni in the mid seventies in France ; the article highlights how women get equal education " not like before when women were the hind leg of the elephant" , in the days when it was not good taste for a woman to learn to read .

BTW, how many fully realize that English is in a different alphabet ? How many actually live and work in LOS and the only letter they manage to recognize stands for " bahts" on the bills?

I remember lady guides at Jim Thompson's doing the tour in perfectly clear French,they told me they had never been to France.

I don't think it's that bad, maybe it's just more apparent.

[souvenirdeparis]

Also see the article in Newsweek: The Destruction of Thailand's Global Brand - Newsweek

"Thailand's scores on the TOEFL exam, the test of English skills for students heading to university, now consistently rank amongthe lowest in Asia"

I agree with your post but, I urge everyone to educate Thai government changing the curriculum as such in order to complete with the 21th century. TOEFL is not an easy subject for the Thais. Remember, Thailand had never been colonized by anyone so, it is no way Thai students will do well with English plus if you go to elementary schools you will see how little the Thais teach English. ( less than 3 hours per week ) English is not an easy language to learn and it takes a person so much time and energy to master. Learning another language is problem for the Thais..so, The Thais need qualify teachers who can read, write and communicate effectively in English. These will apply to TOEFL centers as well. Now it is about time for the Thais to demand the outcome before paying handsome for schools or the TOEFL training placees....

By the way, how many Thais can afford paying 50,000 dollars for studying in America??? ( foreign students ) Now, that why Thais never pay attention to English...... Some Thais say to me that they have fish in the water and rice in the field so they are happy and doing fine. Why do they need others unless they want to own Louis Vutiton or Chanel coutours. My point and I am standing tall.

There will always be some students that find an inner motivation to learn to speak a language through "Class study"... and they will even take the time and spend the energy to find ways to expand their English (or any language) exposure outside of class, and thereby become proficient in communicating.

BUT.. The average Thai student doesn't feel this motivation, nor even see any reason to expend this time and energy which requires so much more than they have to give for their other subjects... and distracts from watching Soap operas, Horror movies or game shows, reading cartoon, "playing" Computer and hanging out at the mall.

This is a societal problem.. until the government wakes up and forces a cultural change in the average Thai's exposure to English... an exposure that is lacking on almost every level... There will never be any real change in how motivated students are to learning. You can't learn to truly communicate in any language strictly from books, or a few hours a week in a classroom... It must be "lived" and made part of daily communicative tasks. Practice is mandatory, and exposure must be ubiquitous.

For a country the purports to be "Tourist Friendly", it is surprising how difficult it is for the average Tourist to find their way around, once they leave the conducted Tour experience.

Try and find a City Bus with the Route/Destination written in English.. or on a bus stop sign. I guess they feel the "Real" Tourists don't take city buses, as they are all too rich to want to mix with Real Thai people and would only take taxis. If they take a bus they must be part of the unwanted "poor" tourist category.. so why try and accommodate them.

The simple step of placing English on Buses would go a long way to show Thais that English is an important communication tool. Then they could have an actual English Broadcast (Free) TV Channel. And an English Newspaper that was available at all Newsstands in all parts of Thailand, not just in selected Tourist areas. And Subtitled Movies rather than dubbed on TV.. and more Western Sit-coms and Drama shows (legal/Medical, etc.) that demonstrated real life situations and exposure to various cultures.. Not a diet of strictly Hi-So Soap operas and slap-stick comedies with arcane laugh tracks.

This would be a small start.. but it would be necessary to sustain the effort over the long-term, no matter the cost or the market resistance. True change never comes easily or with little cost.

CS

These are all valid points. However it might make strategic sense to adapt all of these ideas to the Chinese language, as Thailand could just as easily see its medium to long term future tied to Chinese prosperity, not Anglophone.

""""The simple step of placing English on Buses would go a long way to show Thais that English is an important communication tool""" .I can very well understand why they just don't want this; here in France we're beginning to have notices in a differentt alphabet (ie the arabic) at post offices and banks, and most of us don't like it at all .

it isn't just another language, it is another alphabet, they like theirs , which suits their tonal language; they don't want to feel colonized.

Edited June 10, 2010 by souvenirdeparis

[moetownblues]

I am not slagging Americans and have nothing personal against them. My niece is married to one, a very well known muscian and producer. What I am saying is that the American version of the English language is different to that of other English speaking countries. This is a known fact. If thai teachers were taught by an American and then tested by an Englishman then they would fail. You have American English and then you have English.

Hmmmm... so, if an Englishman were to teach logic and reasoning to Thais and they were subsequently tested by an American would they fail?

[Teacher's notes deleted.]

I would say definately because can an American teach or even know logic as a basic skill?

pulling your chain my friend.....

[elkangorito]

It's about time some of you visited the teachers forum on this website.

This topic has been discussed at great length in the teachers forum. Perhaps a visit may enlighten some folks?

[omarbon]

Its possible that what they're looking at is the effect of something deeper. A diaspora of qualified and well educated Thai teachers who have opted to be in some other place or doing something else.

Teachers should be one of the higher paying jobs. If that's not the case in here in Thailand, then you get second rate, third rate, unqualified educators who fail in their own subjects who won't know the difference between true or false and multiple choice. Something the government or someone has to do something about and not send out cheapshot releases like "Even teachers fail, so how can we raise the quality of students?"

[Thai at Heart]

I would like to make a few suggestions:

1. Please use Speall Cheeck when you see a red line below your words.
2. Proofread your comments.
3. Realize that some American English is actually closer to original English than modern UK English is. Both forms have diverged by adding new elements and retained different older elements.
4. Most US and UK English speakers can quickly understand and read the different versions of English.
5. Australians have also diverged as have many other "Native Speaker" English groups.

As an American, I ask classes which version of English they want. Is it to be US or UK? I can provide slightly Southern accented US or RP UK for speaking. I can do this as well for grammar and spelling. I ask my class to choose one and always be consistent. I do not advocate either version. In fact, many students first assume that I am from the UK. Interestingly, most of them ask for American before I mention my home country. I will not speculate why. As a university teacher and editor, my job is to provide the proper product to the proper person.

(End of Pompous English Rant) If you are offended, that is great!

Regarding Thai teachers, they are not paid much, deprived of resources, and face many other difficult hurdles. Some of them are amazingly good while others are horrifically terrible. I have observed that seems to be the norm for people in such situations in several different jobs and countries. After six years of secondary and tertiary teaching, I have seen idealists, timeservers, cynics and fabulous teachers. This applies to both native speakers and nonnative speakers.

My biggest questions regard the validity and methodology of the Thai teacher test. Selective use of statistics can be used to support nearly any statement. Red roses are not red. They are yellow. Grass is not green. It is blue. How can this be?

Leave information out of your report as follows: Our observers were red-green color blind people.

Viola, your statements look valid. This simple method is often perpetrated on a grand scale every day in the media and in world of bad science.

Thailand has a lot of work to do in education, but so does most of the rest of the world. My daughter in the USA has been to two wonderful schools and one that nearly made me put her in private school. Next year, she will attend a better public school.

The dreadful school is in one of the most affluent American counties. When my teacher friends and I examined the assignments and discussed what occurred in class, we saw the system and curriculum are the primary problems. The materials are old and focus mainly on passing the state tests while the tightly controlled teachers are uninspired and frustrated. We can thank George W for the No One Left Behind program.

Alright, it's time for you to find any grammatical mistakes I made, and you can also commence flaming.

Other than a few spelling differences and a few colloquialisms, I am curious what are the grammatical differences between grammatically correct "British English" and "American English".

I am rather confused that teaching "American English" actually involves teaching a different language. I thought it only existed in Microsoft land.

[WitawatWatawit]

'Bruce1' date='2010-06-10 18:11' timestamp='1276168267' post='3678239']

How can you expect teachers who are themselves often poor at listening and speaking in particular to successfully teach listening and speaking?

The answer is simple , you cannot nor should not , I have a tonal hearing problem , no matter how I tried to speak Thai I could not , words I spoke sounded the same to me as those I had heard , but obviously came out differently , I tried 'Lip reading , but all to no avail . You have a very good point .

A good point, dumball -- I have the same problem. I believe it's called hyperacusis. And it's a b*tch when trying to speak or listen to Thai (you end up being treated like a complete farang moron who doesn't understand anything). So imagine the reverse for people whose language is tonal and then has to try and grasp the meaning of words like scene/seen and sceptic/septic.

On a lighter note. I know an unemployed nurse who recently lost her job as deputy finance minister ("What is VAT?" is her most famous quote upon her appointment) who might make a good education minister. She could have got the job several years ago when Thaksin had 5 education ministers in 3 years (including himself), but she couldn't spell the plural of tomato (which of course is tomatows). But things are different now. Thai education has advanced rapidly under the weight of intense reform measures, so that tomato in the plural form is now correctly spelt potatoes.

Wit

[axllau]

i can say some tuk tuk drivers english better then who work in starbuck

and most bargirl speak better english then Uni student.

[h1lander]

Moderators,

Please note the "American slagfest" in some of the above replies. I can not see what Americanisms (colloquialisms), teaching methods in America, and Americans general IQ has got to do anything with the topic.

Here's a letter for you to read, sorry it has to be said...

John Cleese Letter to America (Notice of Revocation of Independence) - Urban Legends

Richie,

First time I,ve seen that 'Letter'. Laughed from start to finish. No I don't have anything against Americ or Americans - I just don't want them taking over our language - or TV!. My Thai wife spells in American, but I'm managing slowly to show her the error of her ways :-)

Yes, yes.... I came here for an argument - no you didn't.... and so on... LMAO first time I read that. (I'm one of the 1% of Americans that enjoy a good self-deprecating skit). Billy Connelly also has a good go at us Yanks - equally funny.

Glad you enjoyed it. I know I did..

[Bruce1]

When it comes to dialects of English, such as British, American and Australian, don't forget Singlish, Indish, Canish, Kiwish, Chinish and so on. Some of the best English speakers I know are Singaporean, because all their education is in English. There's no particular reason why Thais should be bad at English, its just the way the country and education system operate. My current class of international language students has 17 students from 10 countries with 8 first languages; the two Thais are among the better students. If you put most students in a sustained English environment, they can certainly do well, once their listening skills improve through continual exposure. Three hours a week in a class is just not enough.

[PawyiLee]

Mmm. I love to read maps, but cannot "read" the lay of the land and often get lost. With my Thai wife, it is the other way around.

[PawyiLee]

Most can't point to where Thailand is on a map of the world.

Once a Thai asked me to point to my homeland from where we were standing. I'm from the East Coast of the US, twelve time zones away. What could I do but point to my feet?

Wow -- how could you be so stupid, as to bring a globe into the classroom -- didn't that teacher know that the Earth is flat?

Mmm. I love globes and reading maps, but cannot "read" the lay of the land so often get lost. With my Thai wife, it is the other way around.

[dgotrek]

I would like to make a few suggestions:

1. Please use Speall Cheeck when you see a red line below your words.
2. Proofread your comments.
3. Realize that some American English is actually closer to original English than modern UK English is. Both forms have diverged by adding new elements and retained different older elements.
4. Most US and UK English speakers can quickly understand and read the different versions of English.
5. Australians have also diverged as have many other "Native Speaker" English groups.

As an American, I ask classes which version of English they want. Is it to be US or UK? I can provide slightly Southern accented US or RP UK for speaking. I can do this as well for grammar and spelling. I ask my class to choose one and always be consistent. I do not advocate either version. In fact, many students first assume that I am from the UK. Interestingly, most of them ask for American before I mention my home country. I will not speculate why. As a university teacher and editor, my job is to provide the proper product to the proper person.

(End of Pompous English Rant) If you are offended, that is great!

Regarding Thai teachers, they are not paid much, deprived of resources, and face many other difficult hurdles. Some of them are amazingly good while others are horrifically terrible. I have observed that seems to be the norm for people in such situations in several different jobs and countries. After six years of secondary and tertiary teaching, I have seen idealists, timeservers, cynics and fabulous teachers. This applies to both native speakers and nonnative speakers.

My biggest questions regard the validity and methodology of the Thai teacher test. Selective use of statistics can be used to support nearly any statement. Red roses are not red. They are yellow. Grass is not green. It is blue. How can this be?

Leave information out of your report as follows: Our observers were red-green color blind people.

Viola, your statements look valid. This simple method is often perpetrated on a grand scale every day in the media and in world of bad science.

Thailand has a lot of work to do in education, but so does most of the rest of the world. My daughter in the USA has been to two wonderful schools and one that nearly made me put her in private school. Next year, she will attend a better public school.

The dreadful school is in one of the most affluent American counties. When my teacher friends and I examined the assignments and discussed what occurred in class, we saw the system and curriculum are the primary problems. The materials are old and focus mainly on passing the state tests while the tightly controlled teachers are uninspired and frustrated. We can thank George W for the No One Left Behind program.

Alright, it's time for you to find any grammatical mistakes I made, and you can also commence flaming.

Other than a few spelling differences and a few colloquialisms, I am curious what are the grammatical differences between grammatically correct "British English" and "American English".

I am rather confused that teaching "American English" actually involves teaching a different language. I thought it only existed in Microsoft land.

The major teaching difference is in teaching listening and speaking. GA ( General American) and RP (Received Pronunciation England) sound very different and require some different IPA marks to represent sounds. There are some sounds in each that are not in the other. The students must learn to hear and speak different accents. Ask an American and a Brit to say dog, bird, portal, permanent and it sounds rather different. I have seen the looks of panic when students long trained by an American encounter a Brit and vice-versa. It takes quick students one day to adapt and slow ones many weeks. For in class fun and games, I switch between GA, RP, and an Australian accent when we are relaxing. The students love it and the Brits have awarded me "Honorary Brit" status. The Australians tell me I sound like a real Banana-bender from Queensland. I hope no offence in Queensland is taken here.

I have seen knockdown drag out fights over "The band is good" vs. "The band are good." Teach English with the other side's textbook and audio media. Then you will see it is more than just Microsoft land. It looks like it is going to rain or It looks as if it will rain? I forgot my umbrella at home or I forgot my umbrella. It is at home. What do you use a garage for? Is the front engine cover a hood or bonnet? Are you a truck or lorry driver? Is the front glass pane in your car a windshield or a windscreen? These trivial differences are large to students.

Lastly, many poor teachers hide poor grammar mistakes by claiming American or British rules. Modern media has a huge effect such as "I'm lovin' it." This is quite simply wrong, but people repeat what they hear and see. It becomes part of their language Lego blocks when they formulate new communication attempts and unwittingly use it.

Getting back to Thailand, most Thai teachers who are older adhere to the UK and the younger ones adhere to the USA. The more senior director or teacher is never wrong, so I have seen some real cat fights when they thought no one was watching. Also, I have heard much grumbling about the senior when they thought the farang did not speak Thai. Thankfully, my current Thai boss is very open minded and seeks input. This is rare in Thailand. The concept of International English is a great idea, but who sets the standards?

Edited June 11, 2010 by dgotrek

[slapout]

Some of the individuals, I have met, who are assigned the chore of teaching English in the Thai schools have virtually no Training to teach English in a formal classroom. This includes farangs with majors in PE, art, business, etc, as well as Thais whose major (if you recognize same) area of study is education, Thai culture, business, etc.

Those teachers who have a keen interest in a subject, major in same, and continually keep up with new theories, knowledge, etc and back this up with a formal education (teaching) degree, seem to be very scarce here in Thailand at government, temple, and even many of the private schools.

[souvenirdeparis]

'Bruce1' date='2010-06-10 18:11' timestamp='1276168267' post='3678239']

How can you expect teachers who are themselves often poor at listening and speaking in particular to successfully teach listening and speaking?

The answer is simple , you cannot nor should not , I have a tonal hearing problem , no matter how I tried to speak Thai I could not , words I spoke sounded the same to me as those I had heard , but obviously came out differently , I tried 'Lip reading , but all to no avail . You have a very good point .

A good point, dumball -- I have the same problem. I believe it's called hyperacusis. And it's a b*tch when trying to speak or listen to Thai (you end up being treated like a complete farang moron who doesn't understand anything). So imagine the reverse for people whose language is tonal and then has to try and grasp the meaning of words like scene/seen and sceptic/septic.

On a lighter note. I know an unemployed nurse who recently lost her job as deputy finance minister ("What is VAT?" is her most famous quote upon her appointment) who might make a good education minister. She could have got the job several years ago when Thaksin had 5 education ministers in 3 years (including himself), but she couldn't spell the plural of tomato (which of course is tomatows). But things are different now. Thai education has advanced rapidly under the weight of intense reform measures, so that tomato in the plural form is now correctly spelt potatoes.

Wit

""it's called hyperacusis""

no way , I happen to have hyperacousis ( any little noise will sound painful, while others aren't disturbed and think you're a lunatic maniac, for instance you can't go to the cinema, it's dreadful, and in the car, your get to ask the driver to switch off the soft music if you want a conversation with him, you ask him to stop yelling in your ears while yourself sometimes speak too loudly because you are hard of hearing too, and you end up coming back by bus with one less friend)

you mean being TONE DEAF , which is common: you sing like a tin pan, you're it.

as it is not total and 100% , unless you're tecnically deaf too, it doesn't prevent you managing tones in your own languages ; in English, rising, falling, gliding, level , in French as well, but sometimes in reverse order, and it is quite important for meaning , but on at least one full word , and it won't affect the meaning of the word, but your intention , or sarcasm etc. Most French are tone deaf to English BUT it can often be cured with a pen and papers, careful explaining, repetition ; just listening isn't enough for a tone-deaf since he has no idea what to listen for, it doesn't cross his mind.

I'm bâââd at speaking Thai ; last time I told my son " ma nee" come here, he looked puzzled and worried about my mental state: " but dad , there's no dog here ??"

but when I lived in LOS I managed to understand people (to my great surprise) after two years and was beginning to improve, with paper and pen and arrows .

I know there are softwares for tones in English sentences, one can visualize one's voice tone , someone makes one for Thaï , it will sell.

(hyparacousis is when you're on the bus to Chiang Maï and they switch on the crazy TV and if you forgot your ear plugs you get baba bobo , hard even with ear plugs, while your neighbours chatter around you unhindered.

it comes with age , rock concerts are devastating years after.

I have a fantastic tinnitus case too .

[souvenirdeparis]

I would like to make a few suggestions:

1. Please use Speall Cheeck when you see a red line below your words.
2. Proofread your comments.
3. Realize that some American English is actually closer to original English than modern UK English is. Both forms have diverged by adding new elements and retained different older elements.
4. Most US and UK English speakers can quickly understand and read the different versions of English.
5. Australians have also diverged as have many other "Native Speaker" English groups.

As an American, I ask classes which version of English they want. Is it to be US or UK? I can provide slightly Southern accented US or RP UK for speaking. I can do this as well for grammar and spelling. I ask my class to choose one and always be consistent. I do not advocate either version. In fact, many students first assume that I am from the UK. Interestingly, most of them ask for American before I mention my home country. I will not speculate why. As a university teacher and editor, my job is to provide the proper product to the proper person.

(End of Pompous English Rant) If you are offended, that is great!

Regarding Thai teachers, they are not paid much, deprived of resources, and face many other difficult hurdles. Some of them are amazingly good while others are horrifically terrible. I have observed that seems to be the norm for people in such situations in several different jobs and countries. After six years of secondary and tertiary teaching, I have seen idealists, timeservers, cynics and fabulous teachers. This applies to both native speakers and nonnative speakers.

My biggest questions regard the validity and methodology of the Thai teacher test. Selective use of statistics can be used to support nearly any statement. Red roses are not red. They are yellow. Grass is not green. It is blue. How can this be?

Leave information out of your report as follows: Our observers were red-green color blind people.

Viola, your statements look valid. This simple method is often perpetrated on a grand scale every day in the media and in world of bad science.

Thailand has a lot of work to do in education, but so does most of the rest of the world. My daughter in the USA has been to two wonderful schools and one that nearly made me put her in private school. Next year, she will attend a better public school.

The dreadful school is in one of the most affluent American counties. When my teacher friends and I examined the assignments and discussed what occurred in class, we saw the system and curriculum are the primary problems. The materials are old and focus mainly on passing the state tests while the tightly controlled teachers are uninspired and frustrated. We can thank George W for the No One Left Behind program.

Alright, it's time for you to find any grammatical mistakes I made, and you can also commence flaming.

Other than a few spelling differences and a few colloquialisms, I am curious what are the grammatical differences between grammatically correct "British English" and "American English".

I am rather confused that teaching "American English" actually involves teaching a different language. I thought it only existed in Microsoft land.

The major teaching difference is in teaching listening and speaking. GA ( General American) and RP (Received Pronunciation England) sound very different and require some different IPA marks to represent sounds. There are some sounds in each that are not in the other. The students must learn to hear and speak different accents. Ask an American and a Brit to say dog, bird, portal, permanent and it sounds rather different. I have seen the looks of panic when students long trained by an American encounter a Brit and vice-versa. It takes quick students one day to adapt and slow ones many weeks. For in class fun and games, I switch between GA, RP, and an Australian accent when we are relaxing. The students love it and the Brits have awarded me "Honorary Brit" status. The Australians tell me I sound like a real Banana-bender from Queensland. I hope no offence in Queensland is taken here.

I have seen knockdown drag out fights over "The band is good" vs. "The band are good." Teach English with the other side's textbook and audio media. Then you will see it is more than just Microsoft land. It looks like it is going to rain or It looks as if it will rain? I forgot my umbrella at home or I forgot my umbrella. It is at home. What do you use a garage for? Is the front engine cover a hood or bonnet? Are you a truck or lorry driver? Is the front glass pane in your car a windshield or a windscreen? These trivial differences are large to students.

Lastly, many poor teachers hide poor grammar mistakes by claiming American or British rules. Modern media has a huge effect such as "I'm lovin' it." This is quite simply wrong, but people repeat what they hear and see. It becomes part of their language Lego blocks when they formulate new communication attempts and unwittingly use it.

Getting back to Thailand, most Thai teachers who are older adhere to the UK and the younger ones adhere to the USA. The more senior director or teacher is never wrong, so I have seen some real cat fights when they thought no one was watching. Also, I have heard much grumbling about the senior when they thought the farang did not speak Thai. Thankfully, my current Thai boss is very open minded and seeks input. This is rare in Thailand. The concept of International English is a great idea, but who sets the standards?

""""Other than a few spelling differences and a few colloquialisms, I am curious what are the grammatical differences between grammatically correct "British English" and "American English".

"""

he got no money/ he has no / he hasn't got / he obtained no money

Do you have a US sister, / have you ( got) a Brit sister ? ( US form frequent for do you have + something bought : a car , a .... oh forget it.

the US ordered that he come at once, the Brits ordered that he should come

strong verbs forms vary

(gotten)

***I already saw him in NY , I have already seen him in London

I just did it =I only did it or I have just done it ?

The Obama foreign policy / Obama 's foreign policy

It takes three pages in a university format grammar , could make a longer chapter in a very specialized manual, mostly affects spoken forms , literary documents are more on the British pattern everywhere, sloppy journalism is a new evil everywhere.

Kiwis have only one vowel, which is the short

.... Black English

He go see them

I looks out

he be at work = he is all the time at work

he give it yesterday

he had miss the train

the bells done rung (have rung) they done gone for a doctor

( thanks to my Berland Delepine Grammar )

there have never been huge differences in formal written English ;

casual conversations in British English pubs might as well be in ritual Tibetan or Wolof to my ears

[scotbeve]

There is one particular thing that (I believe) we can all concur on and that is - The World Is "Dumbing Down". In ALL countries....

[slapout]

Scot; My association with the upcoming, college bound students would seem to contradict this. The info that they have been subjected to is so much more than what my generation was exposed to, for obvious reasons. Thailand has some extremely sharp students, and many at the other end of the spectrum, as do all countries of the world. We seem to hear more about the ones that appear to have dumbed down, probably due to their social activity. I think what negatives we see/hear in Thailand, is what the majority of the students are subjected it in the government system, with exceptions even there.

Granted, most of the students I encounter go to International schools or Thai private schools, with the former seemly having a more rounded information base.I am continually amazed at the level the 9th up to 12th grade students are working at (they appear to be university bound). Those we hear about seem to be the poor students who almost seem like social misfits due to some of their escapades.

[dude007]

blind leading the blind

It would be interesting to do the same exercise in other countries. I wonder how many would do any better?

Hi everyone, I am back again, whether you like it or not.

Come on newbie, this poor educational system is on purpose to keep the dumb dumb. Education is the start of democracy, the square one in fact...! See what happened with the latest events in Rachaprasong! How easy these red shirts leaders with lies and idle promises could manipulate their reds shirt followers... Who in Gods name can continue to support a thieve who has stolen billions of Baht from the country because of his good (Hitler-styled) talking? If in every red shirt family there would be one, just one smart guy have had a quality education and caring for his family, Thailand would be another country but this deliberate system of keeping education "LOW" has gone on for way too long and is still intended to go on! That's the only way to make corruption accepted by the people which has been deprived from a decent education for decennia's long.

Take the teaching job off the list of protected jobs in Thailand and the problem is solved in one or maximum two generations... but that will not be liked by these corrupted politicians (no matter to which party they belong) who believe that once elected (by heavy vote-buying) they are entitled to enrich themselves by every mean. Close to African situations and very regretful...

[elkangorito]

you mean being TONE DEAF , which is common: you sing like a tin pan, you're it.

This is off topioc but...

My good friend, an Englishman, is 'tone deaf'. He could not sing to save his life.

I have been saying for many years that if one can sing, one can easily copy the tones of another spoken language.

When I lived in Argentina, I taught myself basic Spanish. Due to the fact that I can sing (I have been in choirs for most of my school life & I attended a music university for a while), most people thought that I was Argentinian...the colour of my eyes did cause some confusion.

Having lived in Thailand for almost 4 years, my work colleagues (Thai) tell me that my spoken Thai, little that it is, is spot on. I can easily hear the Thai tones & it's very easy for me to copy this.

As for my English friend, who has been married to a Thai lady for about 7 years, his Thai is terrible (according to his wife). He can speak more Thai than I but most Thais can't understand him.

His wife always tells me that my Thai accent is perfect. She also tells him that his Thai accent is worse than terrible.

My English friend comes form Birmingham. I sometimes have trouble with his accent. I shall give some examples:

This is what I hear - "Her her is beautiful." What he was saying was "Her hair is beautiful."

This is what I hear - "A burr attacked a man." What he was saying was "A bear attacked a man."

This is what I hear - Were were you yesterday?" What he was saying was "Where were you yesterday?"

This problem does not seem to occur in Australia. Most Australians speak in the same accent from shore to shore. Of course, I am not talking about slang or 'yobbos'.

Back on topic...the education problems in Thailand have everything to do with Thai culture. If this is allowed to change, many other things things will change accordingly.

Edited June 11, 2010 by elkangorito

[backsoon]

An easy win for this, and I am sure that it will never happen, would be for Thailand to utilize the scads of well qualified non-Thai folks scattered around the country. There are retired doctors, lawyers, engineers, teachers, chemists, accountants and others with time on their hands who would not mind helping out with tutoring various subjects.

TheWalkingMan

May I walk with you?

I'm a duly qualified educator. Would be happy to help. But the rules of 'engagement', - Thai Immigration Laws expressly prohibit this.

Even on a no-pay, volunteer work basis. Doesn't make sense?... Oh, yes, it does!...

How can anybody allow 'low life children' of poor families speak better English than their own lazy, spoiled brats attending expensive exclusive private schools!

I am also qualified to teach Science, Maths and Physics...

But the whole fabric of this society may break, if this happens...

:lol:So, you were right. This will never happen.

[backsoon]

you mean being TONE DEAF , which is common: you sing like a tin pan, you're it.

Back on topic...the education problems in Thailand have everything to do with Thai culture. If this is allowed to change, many other things things will change accordingly.

And this is exactly why NOTHING will be allowed to change. Not by this, or any other Government.

[scotbeve]

you mean being TONE DEAF , which is common: you sing like a tin pan, you're it.

Back on topic...the education problems in Thailand have everything to do with Thai culture. If this is allowed to change, many other things things will change accordingly.

And this is exactly why NOTHING will be allowed to change. Not by this, or any other Government.

And all the protests in Thailand WON'T change a da_mn thing as far as education goes. Keep em' stupid is the Order Of The Day as had been done since day-dot in this country.

[Expat1]

Most of us who have been in Asia a long time saw this happening years ago. But, then again have any of you spoken to an Amer or Euro child lately. These kids are unbelievably ignorant of the most basic knowledge in science, math and history. I actually met a young lady from the US here who mentioned that she she was going to visit Vietnam, "you know, in China". So perhaps those that live in glass houses should not throw too many stones but, then again the world needs ditch diggers too.

[scotbeve]

Most of us who have been in Asia a long time saw this happening years ago. But, then again have any of you spoken to an Amer or Euro child lately. These kids are unbelievably ignorant of the most basic knowledge in science, math and history. I actually met a young lady from the US here who mentioned that she she was going to visit Vietnam, "you know, in China". So perhaps those that live in glass houses should not throw too many stones but, then again the world needs ditch diggers too.

Agree with you Expat1.... It's a sad day when someone in a managerial position ends up doing the work himself as the people under him can not (or will not) understand his simple instructions or directions. The service industries, hospitality industries, etc. are in a state of numbness and "dumbness" - and yes, this is worldwide I'm directing this rant at. The "no fail" student policy (outside of Thailand as well) AND the manner in which the schooling systems treat education like a business should be a crime! It's all similar to the way the US went with the health care..... Spare the rod...???? MY @ss!!!! Anyone over 45 yrs. old will know what I speak of when I say a "bit" more discipline should be brought into the schools again. And for those "bleeding heart-type" folks that are now shocked and appalled that this is NOT THE WAY TO TEACH OUR BABIES!!! Then just stand outside ANY classroom and observe.... Also... the UK (I'm a yank btw) did the worst thing possible when the govt. did away with the apprenticeships - brilliant idea!!! Work ethics whilst studying makes for a strong character (usually)...

[brahmburgers]

The only test I've taken in Thailand was the one for a drivers license. I found it difficult, though I passed on my 3rd try.

The reason it was difficult: The multiple choice answers to the questions were too tricky. It was though the person scripting the test tried to make it as difficult as possible. Even the diagrams were badly designed and misleading (parking sketches, etc). Example, a question would be asked and three of the four responses would be correct. The test taker had to decide which of the three correct answers was a tiny bit more correct than the other two - from the test writer's perspective - quite tough.

I'd like to see a draft of the test which the OP refers to. I would bet the teachers who took the test, and future teachers, won't take it if it's voluntary (in the future), because of the embarrassing publicity.

As for English language study reference material - I've seen some of it and it's abysmal. More than a few widely available books of that genre have at least one mistake per page.