American Arrested On Child Sex Charges In Chiang Mai

[stepenwolf1958]

a true warning tale

2007 I was in CM at Kad suan keo big self service restaurant downstairs with my 4 Y O krung krung son ; left him at the table just the time to gather forks etc, with an eye behind my shoulder all the time ;( his mom had warned me ' CM , plenty of pedophiles around ' , I thought, I know Thailand , there aren't that many , just Thaï gossip ; It was my first time in LOS with my son ); then I asked for something like toothpick or whatever and I was directed just round a corner , with kid out of sight; I thought, I just walk and back, 30 seconds . Well in thirty seconds flat when I came back there was this 70 y o linguist of a farang trying to engage a conversation with my son , he saw me and asked " can he talk Thaï ?"

I was not polite in my reply and he moved back to his table with another weirdo.

I know I did a mistake by not watching him all the time . But think, 30 seconds and they crawl from under the rocks.

I don't have any children so I can't really know what it's like to worry/care for a son/daughter 24/7 but stories like this give me the creeps...

With all respects to souvenirdeparis but you made mistake and you were lucky.

My daughter is 15 years old but she is with me all the time, wherever i go she is with me.

Let me tell you, you can't keep your eye all the time at your son but it is wrong to say or to think just foreigners in Thailand are maniacs. Thais do the same.You can see those kind of people everywhere in Thai society as anywhere else in the world but in Thailand, sometimes, they are TEACHERS also.

Bangkok Post reported about human traficking in Phichit(girls, sisters 13 and 14y.o.) and among the other "customers" was a TEACHER, i guess could be from their school.

So, to your Krung Krung son that might happens anywhere, even with Thai teachers.

I am glad you were lucky and save your kid.

[souvenirdeparis]

According to my wife; Thai TV news said the girls mother took her (the girl) to the farang's room. It's a money thing apparently.

Again, this is according to the news on channel 3.

It's a sad sign of the times in Chiangmai that mothers are touting their young children round town of a night time, especially round the moat near Thapae Gate. A very sad indictmemt of our times.

Are you sure about that? Would that go on with any kind of regularity? (I've never seen it and always assumed that most child abuse happens very underground, through connections/contacts, etc, not out on the streets.)

early nineties, I was told there were very young glue-sniffin' teen ager pros for the price of a pack of Krong Thip , at Tha Pae , I didn't believe it and had a look since I passed it daily ; and sure enough, in the shadow of the big doors I saw a few girls of maybe 14, maybe less, looking poor , with probably their boy friends around on small motorcycles looking same , all seedy and dangerous-looking .

Come to think of it, to day they got kids , so they keep on going to the same place , selling the kids instead ??

I'm so sorry to read parents sell their kids, I thought it was a thing of the past and mostly had always been not true (parents receiving money for kid to work in town, un knowing kid would end in prostitution).

Here in France we have cases too . Last month, gypsies from Roumania had organized a regular ring in town with their own very young children. and other all French cases .

Edited June 19, 2010 by souvenirdeparis

[slapout]

True story; My 15 year old daughter and her friend (same age) were at airport plaza doing what teenagers do, movie, eat, shopping, etc. I deliver and pick up. They were approached by a local to be models for the company he works for. Kids were excited as he said they could make 3,000 baht for a afternoons photo secession. I listen, called the other father and we decided that a meet as suggested would be okay. He and his wife as well as my wife and I show at the meeting and it takes a few minutes to determine there is no company, no facilities for office or photo session, etc. I will give the solicitors their due, they remained composed with our arrival, but when the specific questions were asked and no satisfactory answers were forthcoming, they had to hurry to another business meeting. The girls mentioned later that I could have been more polite, my intent was to give them second and third thoughts about this type of approach. They may have been completely innocent of any thoughts of wrong doing, but they have not been in contact to continue with their proposal. The creeps/sickos are everywhere and the young can be so gullible/trusting, even with our warning lectures.

[Scott]

A number of posts have been deleted, including a couple with a variation to the hang-em high crowd. Posts quoting those posts have also been deleted.

I will make no assumption about the guilt of this person, but let's remember that there are medical conditions than cause elderly people to lose mental functions and this can cause them to engage in behavior that is uncharacteristic of them. These people often don't have previous convictions. I have no idea if that is the case here or not.

There is also something called the 'badger game' where people sell underage people for sex and it is a set up to extort money. In some cases it does not involve actual sexual relations, just the plan to do so. A less-than-honorable policeman may play a part in the extortion and nothing happens when the money is paid. Of course, once there is some sort of charge, as in this case, then it is a whole different kettle of fish. Again, I have no idea if this is the case in this situation.

So, keep it civil and take care in your posts.

[F4UCorsair]

I read these posts and am saddened; saddened by the foreigner engaging in such activity, saddened by the poor little girl being 'sold', saddened by the parents' predicament whereby they felt they had to do it, and saddened by a whole lot of other issues surrounding the case.

I guess it comes back to not having a market and if men didn't pursue this sort of activity, the market would dry up, idealistic (even dreaming) I suppose, but surely it's an ideal worth pursuing.

[jmapodaca]

This is the sad truth in Thailand. Mom's (not all but many in the poorer areas) will allow there kids to be sexually molested by Farang with the plan of eventually getting dollars; or getting the Farang to marry their daughter in the hopes of getting both dollars and land from him.

I know of a 42 year old man living in Phetchabun who recently married a 14 year old girl. The police will do nothing unless and until the mother fails to get money and decides to retaliate against the Farang by pressing charges. Lucky for him he provided dollars.

For most of us, we would like to see both the Farang and the mother go to jail. The kids are the victims from every side of the issue. Neither the parents nor the police protect them from these despicable predators.

How does a (presumably) OLD, WHITE, man get a 10 year old Thai girl into a guesthouse alone? And not once, but multiple times? Isn't anyone at the front desk, or a cleaning person, or another guest, or anyone else at all around who asks what their deal is? I mean, everywhere I go people ask me where I'm from, where I'm going, how long I'm staying, if I'm married, anything and everything about my business.... So how does an old white man with a little Thai girl not set of any alarms?

And where were the child's parents/caretakers? Do they normally just not know where she is for substantial periods of time?

Really strange.

I mean, if the guy nabbed the girl on her way home from school once, then maybe it's a little more likely to have gone un-noticed. But this happened multiple times. You would think someone would notice.

With the consent $$ of her mother.

poor kid.

[mickyboy]

Please be careful about assuming the worst things about male foreigners when you see them with Thai youngsters. Many of us are in legit relationships with Thai adults and are related to the Thai families, including of course actual Dads.

i totally agree with your comment as my niece is 16 looks 12 as some do and when we are out people look at us strange and have even made remarks which is ok but annoying and hurtfull she just tells them in thai im her uncle but they still look as if im up to somthing and no i dont have a guilty concience but with this guy maybe someones looking for some fast bucks lets hope he done nothing evil and it all ends up as a mistake

[mickyboy]

lets hope this is a mistake as we all know it be bad news for all foriegn travellers to thailand and the finger gets pointed at any middle age guy going alone there such a shame as the culture and country is beautifull but as we know there are a few who ruin it for the rest

[elliss]

If he did do this at 72 yrs of age he must have done this god knows how many times before ... in cases like this they should check with his home country to see if he has done this before and use this evidence in court against him.

i think ,,,

if you are on the sex offenders registar in the u.k.

the chip on the new passports , would contain this information .

imo , child sex offenders , should not have a pssport .

if you are a regular male visitor to cambodia ,

this can brought to the attention of the child protection agency .

[parallaxtech]

In the US I had neighbor's children constantly running in an out of my house, using the pool, playing on my computer, etc., and never had even a question about it. When I moved here years ago, I had a bungalo near a poor Thai village and kids were constantly running in and out of my house, swimming in the pool with me, etc. Then several of the women asked if I could babysit their daughters. I called a friend of mine and he told me to cut off all connections with these people as I was being set up, which I did. A year later I took my girlfriend's Thai daughter to the beach. While swimming a fat Thai woman approached me and said she was the girl's mother and would I like to buy or rent the girl. I told her in Thai that this was my girlfriend's daughter and for her to take a hike. And over the years several mothers and fathers have approached me to buy/rent their children. I even went so far as to go to the police about it, but the police sergeant just laughed and said TIT. My point is that this is a fact of life here, as they will sell/rent their children or anyone else's. My lawyer told me something that all should keep in mind, "If you take any underage girl into your home or any other private place, you are presumed guilty of molestation. As long as you are always in public, such as a beach or mall, it's very difficult to accuse you of anything." Always remember, Thais have to follow maybe 20% of the law, but farangs must follow 120% of it.

Edited June 19, 2010 by parallaxtech

[moskito]

sorry fellas but I still think there is NO REASON to publish the full name of the guy as long as he is not proofed guilty and sentenced.

I remember the Basketballplayer some weeks ago. HANG HIM HIGH shouted it and his reputation was terrible damaged, finally there was nothing but the Newspaper story and it will follow him forever....its internetage guys.

So if I want to have information about anybody I am searchn the net and stories like that will come up if the full name is posted so easy, guilty or not guilty.

If they have proof he is guilty he will do his time and then, but only then Media can provide his name to the world. Thats what I think, sorry.

[khaowong1]

According to my wife; Thai TV news said the girls mother took her (the girl) to the farang's room. It's a money thing apparently.

Again, this is according to the news on channel 3.

ah ha... now the plot thickens, you don't think it might be a blackmail the farang thing do you? That just maybe, it was the mother who was the recipient of the mans advances and the mother just took the next obvious step, looking a gift horse in the mouth. Just thinking out loud and giving the man the benefit of being innocent of child molesting and instead being caught up in something that didn't happen. hmmmmm

[khaowong1]

In the US I had neighbor's children constantly running in an out of my house, using the pool, playing on my computer, etc., and never had even a question about it. When I moved here years ago, I had a bungalo near a poor Thai village and kids were constantly running in and out of my house, swimming in the pool with me, etc. Then several of the women asked if I could babysit their daughters. I called a friend of mine and he told me to cut off all connections with these people as I was being set up, which I did. A year later I took my girlfriend's Thai daughter to the beach. While swimming a fat Thai woman approached me and said she was the girl's mother and would I like to buy or rent the girl. I told her in Thai that this was my girlfriend's daughter and for her to take a hike. And over the years several mothers and fathers have approached me to buy/rent their children. I even went so far as to go to the police about it, but the police sergeant just laughed and said TIT. My point is that this is a fact of life here, as they will sell/rent their children or anyone else's. My lawyer told me something that all should keep in mind, "If you take any underage girl into your home or any other private place, you are presumed guilty of molestation. As long as you are always in public, such as a beach or mall, it's very difficult to accuse you of anything." Always remember, Thais have to follow maybe 20% of the law, but farangs must follow 120% of it.

A very eye opening story for all farangs and very good advice..

[jayinoz]

Shows the state of the economy when a CMai mother needs to sell off her daughter to an old man. She could not wait a few years. Yes in most other countries the mother would be held on very serious changes nearly equal to that of the alleged abuser. Sad times...

[salizar1]

How does a (presumably) OLD, WHITE, man get a 10 year old Thai girl into a guesthouse alone? And not once, but multiple times? Isn't anyone at the front desk, or a cleaning person, or another guest, or anyone else at all around who asks what their deal is? I mean, everywhere I go people ask me where I'm from, where I'm going, how long I'm staying, if I'm married, anything and everything about my business.... So how does an old white man with a little Thai girl not set of any alarms?

And where were the child's parents/caretakers? Do they normally just not know where she is for substantial periods of time?

Really strange.

I mean, if the guy nabbed the girl on her way home from school once, then maybe it's a little more likely to have gone un-noticed. But this happened multiple times. You would think someone would notice.

How do any of the people pull it of??? Because something should be hard to get away with doesnt mean it is. Your defence of him based on it being difficult is foolish. And if he did it I hope he is dealt with very harshly

[cdnvic]

One potentially libellous post deleted. Please refrain from gossip and hearsay.

[anotheruser]

If the Guy is found guilty he can look forward to some tough years ahead. The tougher the better!

If he is found guilty at his age effectively his life is over. We should not only presume innocence in these cases but also hope innocence as crimes of this nature destroy both lives involved. I am hoping that no crime happened at all. Whether my hopes will come true or not is anybodies guess. I just get the feeling that too many people on these forums hope for convictions so they can get all righteous.

[Brigante7]

Since we can't really comment on the charge then, who is the falang looking guy in the background with all the badges on his shirt?

I think it's Santa Claus working his day job.

LMFAO.

[jan1van1hooten]

so anytime an older white man talks to a kid it means he's a pedo and up to no good?

and all the parents or guardians are stressed out being paranoid

pretty sick world we've made for ourselves

[parallaxtech]

so anytime an older white man talks to a kid it means he's a pedo and up to no good?

and all the parents or guardians are stressed out being paranoid

pretty sick world we've made for ourselves

Exactly, it's a modern day witch hunt out there. I feel sorry for every priest, teacher, and pediatrician, as they are all under suspicion of being pedos. I used to play with children, buy clothes and toys for them, sponsor their sports teams, etc., but no more. Several people warned me I would get blackmailed, so now I don't even acknowledge children. The children have lost out in the end. Raise you hand if you think we live in a better society now.

[Acharn]

According to my wife; Thai TV news said the girls mother took her (the girl) to the farang's room. It's a money thing apparently.

Again, this is according to the news on channel 3.

If true, shouldn't Mommy Dearest also be up on charges? I certainly hope so.

I think that's what I remember from reading the law a several years ago. If I remember correctly, the parents are liable if the kid is under 14. Certainly if there's evidence the parent received payment.

[Acharn]

Shows the state of the economy when a CMai mother needs to sell off her daughter to an old man. She could not wait a few years. Yes in most other countries the mother would be held on very serious changes nearly equal to that of the alleged abuser. Sad times...

Several years ago the BKK Post had one of its occasional excellent investigative pieces, based on statistics from the Ministry of Public Health. It seems by far most of the girls "working in the entertainment industry" are from the Northern provinces of Chiang Mai, Chiang Rai, and Lamphun. Girls from the Northeast mostly work in the much smaller niche market that caters to farang. Most customers are Asian. The vast majority, of course, are Thai. In most cases the girls are hired against a "loan" to their parents. the money is given to the parents, and the girls are contracted to work as waitresses or maids with their "salaries" being used to pay off the debt.

I met one such woman over 25 years ago. She wasn't resentful of what her parents had done. It was just the way life is. But she was almost thirty years old and very resentful that she was going to be fired after she turned thirty. "The young girls don't know anything. By the time a woman learns how to really take care of her customers well, they fire her because she's too old. It's not fair."

Oh, yeah, one other point. Of course this site publishes stories about farangs who get into trouble, but it gives a false impression that all pedophiles are foreigners. Studies done in the Philippines and Taiwan discovered that almost all child sex abusers are locals, especially step-fathers or close male relatives of the mother. But those cases don't get any publicity.

[Acharn]

Please be careful about assuming the worst things about male foreigners when you see them with Thai youngsters. Many of us are in legit relationships with Thai adults and are related to the Thai families, including of course actual Dads.

i totally agree with your comment as my niece is 16 looks 12 as some do and when we are out people look at us strange and have even made remarks which is ok but annoying and hurtfull she just tells them in thai im her uncle but they still look as if im up to somthing and no i dont have a guilty concience but with this guy maybe someones looking for some fast bucks lets hope he done nothing evil and it all ends up as a mistake

My late wife wouldn't get on the bus with me. She would let a couple of other people get on between us. Otherwise there were loudmouthed harpies who would accuse her of being a prostitute.

[way2muchcoffee]

a true warning tale

2007 I was in CM at Kad suan keo big self service restaurant downstairs with my 4 Y O krung krung son ; left him at the table just the time to gather forks etc, with an eye behind my shoulder all the time ;( his mom had warned me ' CM , plenty of pedophiles around ' , I thought, I know Thailand , there aren't that many , just Thaï gossip ; It was my first time in LOS with my son ); then I asked for something like toothpick or whatever and I was directed just round a corner , with kid out of sight; I thought, I just walk and back, 30 seconds . Well in thirty seconds flat when I came back there was this 70 y o linguist of a farang trying to engage a conversation with my son , he saw me and asked " can he talk Thaï ?"

I was not polite in my reply and he moved back to his table with another weirdo.

I know I did a mistake by not watching him all the time . But think, 30 seconds and they crawl from under the rocks.

What makes you think the farang was in any way guilty? He committed the crime of talking to a child. Wow. Now you have labeled him a criminal pedophile. This Western frenzy that demonizes all men causes major problems. Innocent men are constantly being accused. A man can't exhibit any friendliness toward a child whatsoever these days. This sad state of affairs is completely unnatural.

It is not wrong in any way to interact with a child that is not yours.

This is not to say that pedophilia does not exist, nor that one should not be vigilant in caring for their children. But this instant rush to judgment is decidedly wrongheaded. Regarding the case of this thread I will not rush to judgment until the facts come out, if they ever do.

Edited June 20, 2010 by way2muchcoffee

[cdnvic]

I gotta say, this is the most sensible discussion on such an emotional subject I've seen here. Thanks for keeping cool heads and informative posts.

[souvenirdeparis]

According to my wife; Thai TV news said the girls mother took her (the girl) to the farang's room. It's a money thing apparently.

Again, this is according to the news on channel 3.

If true, shouldn't Mommy Dearest also be up on charges? I certainly hope so.

I think that's what I remember from reading the law a several years ago. If I remember correctly, the parents are liable if the kid is under 14. Certainly if there's evidence the parent received payment.

""if the kid is under 14"" I don't think so ; maybe " MORE liable if under 14 " . Pimping is an offence whatever the age , right ? Here in France we have sex charges for kids under AND over 15 ; under 15, there's no advocate fiddling around with " she was willing" (which is a big progress upon our courts of the eighties, when such atrocities were routinely uttered by the advocatesof sex maniac on TODDLERS in closed-door trials - a disgusted court worker friend told me then ; these cases never made the newspapers " to protect the child's reputation" !!

now it's like everywhere else, you smile to a kid, you're a pedo .

Edited June 20, 2010 by souvenirdeparis

[wedders]

Chiang Mai at first sight, and even for long-term residents, can seem to be above this sort of thing. But there have long been rumours about alleged alternative ventures of some of the organised flower selling hill tribe people. And procuring under-age girls, in certain establishments, is no big deal. As often as not, the 'punter' does so unknowingly.

How is this possible? (Allegedly) many bars/go-go's are 'protected' by a lower level policeman or two. But if there is ever a crackdown ordered from on high, and knowledge of a raid doesn't filter down to the establishment in time, then the strategically positioned ladies sitting outside will see them coming, and a number of girls, whether because their age is somewhat in doubt and/or because they have no ID and are illegals, will disappear through the door at the back of the ladies room into the narrow soi leading straight into the condo building at the rear.

I've seen this happen - a busy place with some 15 or so occupied girls suddenly emptying, with less than half still left in the room in a few seconds. Done reasonably discretely (just going to get changed/powder my nose etc), but no, they're not going to make themselves look beautiful for the next dance.Then in come the police, checking papers.

The number of illegals, Burmese, hill tribe etc., is higher than some might think.

Edited June 20, 2010 by wedders

[Tanaka]

Shows the state of the economy when a CMai mother needs to sell off her daughter to an old man. She could not wait a few years. Yes in most other countries the mother would be held on very serious changes nearly equal to that of the alleged abuser. Sad times...

That is what the Thai law prescribes too, should these people be brought to court and found guilty. But what a Thai court actually rules is a different matter.

[jcartermad]

Makes no odds guilty or innocent. Most so called "third countries" splash the dirt, (his picture, details, evidence & the like) on the front page BEFORE the trial or in many instances before the guy is charged. We are guests and it is their custom to print the details in advance. It is common to see "suspects" with heads bowed in front of the evidence, (drugs, guns, cash) etc. This guy may be innocent, i suspect differently however. Why would a 72 year old man want to be alone in an hotel room with a 10 year old girl? Perhaps he had some puppies he wanted to show her? Either way he should have played safe. Never put yourself in a position, if innocent, where others may think something is "going on". If he is innocent i pray to God he gets off. If he is guilty well so be it. Let the Thai's deal with it. As they say; "let the law take it's course". Nuff said.

The law in Britain is about to be changed, but currently the press have a field day publishing pictures of suspected rapists. Some obviously are innocent, but the dirt sticks. In one case recently the loacl paper in Swansea didn't have a photo so just looked up the suspect's name on facebook and used that picture on its front page. It turned out that they had the picture of the wrong guy. So a person that had nothing whatsover to do with the case has had his life turned into a nightmare, as people recognise him in the street and assume he is a convicted rapist.

To many people on this forum are too quick to accuse Thai people and Thai authorities of acting wrongly when the same goes on in their own countries,and often times much worse. If you don't like it here, just leave. Before you complain just take a look at your own countries first. Nowhere is perfect. Focus on the good things for a change, as these vastly outweight the bad things.

As someone else pointed out, how you get treat and the way you perceive things is down to your own attitude. Many on here have a really bad attitude problem, so I'm not inthe least surprised that they get treated badly and think the world has it in for them.

My own view is that pictures, regardless of what country, should never be displayed before the person is found guilty. My view about 3rd world countries was purely subjective. I have seen such photo splashes numerous times around the world. We even do it in the UK but not flanked by policemen smiling saying "look at the great work i have done". You do however see it via newsreels. The cameras just happened to be there when the raided some guys house for drugs, saunas, canabis farms etc. The press can be savage...we all know that. In this case i feel that unless the 72 guy has some real cash in his back pocket he may well spend time in CM prison regardless of innocense or guilt. I once asked a BKK Police Inspector why he preferred working there rather than in Issan. He said "the money is better there". I asked "salary"...he replied "my share of the monthly taking". This 72 year old best have deep pockets.

[Tanaka]

Innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.

That unfortunately isn't true. Under Thai law, as I understand it, the persson arrested is a suspect helping the police with their enquiries and is deemed to be neither innocent or guilty. Also under this essentially Napoleonic legal code the arrest is not made until much further down the road than is the case in most Western countries. That is why the police usually have strong evidence upon arrest.

As for 'crazydrummerpauly's comments: unless it can be proved that the relationship does not involve money changing hands - and few courts will believe that in the case of a foreigner- then prostitution is assumed and then the legal age is 20, not 18. So your friends conviction, imprisonment and deportation were absolutely correct under Thai law.

The age of sexual consent here is 18, not 20. Anyone who is under 18 is regarded a child. The law about child abuse has a further limit at 13 when stipulating penalties.