"As Soon As You Opened Your Mouth They Probably Knew Where You Learnt Your Thai From"

[tombkk]

Here are some definitions from two Thai women writing is amagazine, "Yess-We Do", YES! Magazine:

...........

Gee, nothing about conspicuous consumption.

Nothing about skin colour either, and I can assure you those with dark skin will never be considered 'hi-so' by anyone.

I almost missed this gem.

Sorry, I totally disagree. There certainly is a genre of people in Thai society that favour light skin over dark skin. Hey, there is a whole industry of skin whiteners! But educated people should neither follow nor promote this. Considering yourself educated must include working against any silly prejudices based on skin colour.

I hear that the president of a major western country has rather dark skin, and I guarantee you that he is considered high society by many people! But maybe not in your circles?

[tombkk]

[Again 'sarahsbloke' the self appointed resident expert weighs in with his 2 satang worth of misguided information...

While I routinely use sweeping generalities and paint with a very broad brush (to cover ground quickly); I too must agree to disagree with that poster's skewed take on "all thingz thai" concerning talk of a sexual nature amongst close friends.

Nobody specified sexual talk betrween close same-sex friends .... that would be a different matter entirely.

I can't really make much comment about conversations with Thai guys, as I'm not gay, I don't mix with em much.

The farmers I do mix with (family events) tend to get totally pissed and fall asleep very quickly without much conversation, oh how i wish I were a gay Bangkokian!

Come again? Every man who has male friends is gay?

You have issues, pal. If we were in NY, I would suggest you consult a shrink.

[tombkk]

Here are some definitions from two Thai women writing is amagazine, "Yess-We Do", YES! Magazine:

...........

Gee, nothing about conspicuous consumption.

Nothing about skin colour either, and I can assure you those with dark skin will never be considered 'hi-so' by anyone.

I've come to the conclusion that, sarahsbloke is just on a wind up. Trolling I think it's called.

Hm. You may be right. Or not. Let's wait for him/her to reply tomorrow.

[mikenyork]

My favorite Thai source makes a distinction between "Hi So" (I had always thought it was a mispronunciation of zone, but society makes a lot more sense), which implies a certain pretentiousness (David Houston"s cite of YES! notwithstanding) and ผู้ดี which is defined in her mind as being almost exactly as the YES ! magazine article defined Hi So. My source thinks Hi So is essentially a synonym for ผู้ดีตีนแดง a (rural) idiom for people who paint their feet red in an attempt to cover up the fact that they, in fact, do hard field labor.

[mikenyork]

Here are some definitions from two Thai women writing is amagazine, "Yess-We Do", YES! Magazine:

...........

Gee, nothing about conspicuous consumption.

Nothing about skin colour either, and I can assure you those with dark skin will never be considered 'hi-so' by anyone.

I almost missed this gem.

Sorry, I totally disagree. There certainly is a genre of people in Thai society that favour light skin over dark skin. Hey, there is a whole industry of skin whiteners! But educated people should neither follow nor promote this. Considering yourself educated must include working against any silly prejudices based on skin colour.

I hear that the president of a major western country has rather dark skin, and I guarantee you that he is considered high society by many people! But maybe not in your circles?

Unfortunately,although there may be Thais who don't judge social status by skin tone, but I have never met them. In fact, I get asked frequently why farangs prefer dark skin toned women (something I never noticed until it was pointed out to me--turns out to be more or less true, especially up-country--less so here in bkk). And my s/o's niece is dark (she's 10) and struggles mightily with it. She is teased about it in the family all the time. So, although I hate to agree with Sarahsbloke about anything, I'm afraid he's probably right about this.

[sarahsbloke]

Unfortunately,although there may be Thais who don't judge social status by skin tone, but I have never met them. In fact, I get asked frequently why farangs prefer dark skin toned women (something I never noticed until it was pointed out to me--turns out to be more or less true, especially up-country--less so here in bkk). And my s/o's niece is dark (she's 10) and struggles mightily with it. She is teased about it in the family all the time. So, although I hate to agree with Sarahsbloke about anything, I'm afraid he's probably right about this.

Off topic here, but the more you speak Thai (and I assume everyone in this topic does to some extent), the more you come to understand that Thais are obsessed with skin colour. You can have an extremely shapely and attractive girl from Issan who would be considered a model by the western world, but in Thailand dark skin = ugly. I have heard many times Thais discussing why white men always date ugly women, one day I butted in on the conversation, as the guys were talking about what I considered a very pretty girl. Why is she ugly I asked, skin no good, too dark, shape of forehead no good (too sloped?) .......

Edited June 25, 2010 by sarahsbloke

[GarryP]

Unfortunately,although there may be Thais who don't judge social status by skin tone, but I have never met them.

Off topic here, but the more you speak Thai (and I assume everyone in this topic does to some extent), the more you come to understand that Thais are obsessed with skin colour. You can have an extremely shapely and attractive girl from Issan who would be considered a model by the western world, but in Thailand dark skin = ugly. I have heard many times Thais discussing why white men always date ugly women, one day I butted in on the conversation, as the guys were talking about what I considered a very pretty girl. Why is she ugly I asked, skin no good, too dark, shape of forehead no good (too sloped?) .......

Unfortunately, on the whole I also have to agree with sarahsbloke (there are a few exceptions though). An event I never thought would happen.

[DavidHouston]

Just a small note: the two views on Hi-so expressed in Yes magazine should be seen as not definitions but characteristics. I believe that the two women were saying, in effect, "people who are hi-so have the following characteristics". The second seems to be saying "good is as good does", in a Forrest Gumpian sort of way; or, more to the point, "hi-so is as hi-so does" - surely an idealized version of reality.

I do appreciate the discussion. Thanks.

[bangkokburning]

My experience in Thailand.

We all try to a greater or lesser degree. If you speak Lao/Issarn dialect well you will be met with a big smile and Thais will love you for speaking Thai, even though its "Lao" - same goes for southern dialect. Although I am often derided jokingly for my "Thai" being from the north when I am tripping in the south (which is quite often now).

Where a person gets into problems (man) is not easy to conjure.

Swearing - Any bad words (Thai or whatever). Thais cannot distinguish if you are swearing at the or if it is an exclamation. They don't like it and it is VERY coarse.

Bar lingo - Any stupid bar lingo, especially dubious words and phrases and euphemisms.

I don't see how someone will judge you ill because you have not the mastery to trill your R's.

Keep your language clean.

Has nothing to do with your pronunciation, 90% of people speaking Thai, to a Thai I think sounds pretty bad and I include myself in that.(for now) <-- That is to say that if you are trying to speak Thai or speak we all and make plenty of mistakes, Thai's will not look ill upon you. What an effort it is to undertake. I think most reasonable Thai's know this well indeed and are very forgiving of mispronunciation. Coarse and vulgar language, learn your Thai in a bar ? nope.

There is real HiSo and fake HiSo. Most of the time people are referring to people (women) who look lovely and enjoy all the anti-Buddhist trappings of a modern Bangkokian lifestyle as excessively as possible in a gregarious and flaunting manner as possible.These women are more often than not from typical middle class families. Anyone who has mixed with money knows it when they see it.

In the USA it's usually not the person with the BMW and the bling unless you are in Florida. Some of the wealthiest people I know in the US dress totally understated and drive nothing more than a Lexus or Mid range Mercedes.

Edited June 25, 2010 by bangkokburning

[bangkokburning]

In the above post - my comments are regarding discussions with strangers as I think the initial question implies.

As men - we all know what we talk about and it varies little between Thais or mixed ethnicity or nationalities. I agree with Tod and Groongthep. Different animal.

[bhoydy]

Hi-so is being said by younger people where i'm from about things that you would not think to be hi-so. For example this morning a student asked what i had for breakfast and i told her that i had cereal. She replied 'oooo hi-so'

I have also heard people talk about the Honda Jazz being hi-so because some of the female soap opera stars like to drive them. While the person driving it may or may not be hi-so the Jazz, at well under a million baht, is certainly not.

So there doesn't appear to be any definite definition for it as i suppose it depends on what the speaker would regard to be hi-so.

That's my 2 bobs worth.

[hiero]

I forgot, the jamook-bee! that aint no hi-so yo

[tombkk]

Unfortunately,although there may be Thais who don't judge social status by skin tone, but I have never met them. In fact, I get asked frequently why farangs prefer dark skin toned women (something I never noticed until it was pointed out to me--turns out to be more or less true, especially up-country--less so here in bkk). And my s/o's niece is dark (she's 10) and struggles mightily with it. She is teased about it in the family all the time. So, although I hate to agree with Sarahsbloke about anything, I'm afraid he's probably right about this.

Off topic here, but the more you speak Thai (and I assume everyone in this topic does to some extent), the more you come to understand that Thais are obsessed with skin colour. You can have an extremely shapely and attractive girl from Issan who would be considered a model by the western world, but in Thailand dark skin = ugly. I have heard many times Thais discussing why white men always date ugly women, one day I butted in on the conversation, as the guys were talking about what I considered a very pretty girl. Why is she ugly I asked, skin no good, too dark, shape of forehead no good (too sloped?) .......

Well, most people on this list seem to agree that skin colour matters to Thai people. Ugliness is another thing: Many of the girls from Isaan I see are not beautiful to my eyes, and that's because I have a different taste. They also happen to be darker than the average Bangkok girl, but that is a side issue. I have indeed heard Thai people calling a dark but beautiful girl ugly, I'm not sayuing that doesn't exist.

Would you agree that there is a difference between educated urbanites and upcountry people how they see the skin colour issue? In our group of friends, there are people of various shades of skin colour, and it doesn't seem to make any difference.

[mikenyork]

Like everything in this country, it seems to be "both this and that" at the same time, even though "this" would logically exclude "that".  All Thais I have ever known (in 45 years of living with Thais here and overseas) prefer lighter skin to darker skin.  That's been true regardless of education/status/rural vs urban origin or anything else.  In the classic Thai Epic, the Ramakien, written down in its present version more than 200 years ago (and with a literary history stretching back many hundreds of years before that), lighter skin is generally regarded favorably and dark skin is regarded as being less attractive and generally lower class.  But, on the other hand, Thais generally are extremely tolerant of differences, and it doesn't surprise me that dark-skinned people are accepted completely into your circle of friends.  I once, many years ago, had the chance to observe fairly closely the interactions of a half-African American worker with his entry level white collar colleagues in a large bank.  Despite the fact that Thais routinely refer to such people in disparaging terms,(ไอ้มืด would not be uncommon, for example),  I couldn't perceive that this young man was treated any differently by his colleagues because of his color.  At the end of the day, TIT!<img src="http://static.thaivisa.com/forum/public/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif" alt="" class="bbc_emoticon">

[bangkokburning]

I prefer lighter (white) skin. My girlfriend's skin is "light golden brown". She darkens to night when we are tripping on the Andaman's.

Thai's pretty much are very into the white skin thing - I know this from personal experience and all the whitening products and promotions. Ask any Thai.

Girlfriend's young relative is named something like "darkie" or bad and its related directly to her skin.

Scandinavian's love dark women and the darker the better.

Where does this get us?

Wasn't this thread about pattern of speech?

[Tod Daniels]

I forgot, the jamook-bee! that aint no hi-so yo

I had to look up the word you provided the engrish spelling for จมูกบี้, as it's one I'd never heard spoken. I had only heard จมูกแบน as a slightly derogatory term for 'flat' (thai) nose, but still I’d never heard จมูกบี้ before. Thanx for another vocab word!!

IMHO, there are entirely tooo many thai-gurls who've เสริม'd their จมูก's already in an effort to rid themselves of their flat thai nose.

As far as skin tone and thai peoples’ perceptions of foreigners who like that 'tint' of thai gurls; The topic has come up when I sit outside and drink with my friends numerous times. Possibly because of the HUGE number of foreigners and their significant thai other aka their 'thai-in-tow' traipsing down my Soi to eat over priced, bland, totally shit thai food at the Cabbages and Condoms restaurant.

It always starts with the question; "Mr. Tod, do you know why foreign men pick the darkest ugliest thai gurls to be with?" It has lead to some lively discussions, although no real answer seems forth coming (other than the easy access to thai gurls of that persuasion in the 'rent-2-own, or 'time share' industry in my immediate area).

FWIW, the thai guys I sit with are all of varying skin tone, and varying birth provinces like; Surin, Buriram, Songkhla, Lampang, Yasothon, Kanchanaburi etc, but I have never seen even the slightest racial categorizing or slurs directed towards each other based solely on skin tone. It only seems to be directed to foreigners with thais-in-tow or to a lesser extent thai people outside their immediate group.

Although a brief perusal of the television will lead to a person being bombarded with skin whitening products, even deodorant so you don’t have dark armpits . Sheesh, quite strange really, when you think about it critically.

"bangkokburning"; I too thought the topic has veered from the original title of the thread, but, just maybe it'll straighten itself out before it's closed.

[Parvis]

"Would you agree that there is a difference between educated urbanites and upcountry people how they see the skin colour issue? In our group of friends, there are people of various shades of skin colour, and it doesn't seem to make any difference."

There appears to be too much significance given by individual "would be's" about skin color - hi-so - lo-so - etc. etc.. Even a previous comment about the "skin-color and hi-so" of a certain president of a powerful nation feels "disingenous" to me. Do I feel he is "hi-so" - no - it just never comes to my mind. Has his skincolor any influence on my opinion about him - no - it never comes to my mind.

As a previous poster stated "various shades of skin colour ... does not seem to make any difference" - except possibly to the pretentious would be's. What makes a difference to me - is attitude.

Edited June 28, 2010 by Parvis

[StChris]

The class aspect has been discussed, but how about gender? I imagine alot of people learn from their girlfriend or boyfriend, which might lead them speaking in a inappropriately girly or manly way. I know this can be a problem with men learning Chinese with their gilfriend/wife, there was even a special lesson on it on the website where I learn Chinese: http://chinesepod.com/lessons/girly-talk

Is there any particularly girly phrases or verbal mannerisms that a man should avoid (apart from the obvious ka/krap of course)?

I did visit a nursery once where the teacher pointed out, in a very relaxed and matter of fact way, a boy that she said he was a ladyboy. I was a bit sceptical at first since he could only have been 4 or 5, until I realised that he kept using ka and instead of krap! I don't know if it was a concious decision on the child's part, but the teacher (and maybe therefore the parents) didn't seem to have a problem with it or think it needed to be corrected.

[tombkk]

I forgot, the jamook-bee! that aint no hi-so yo

I had to look up the word you provided the engrish spelling for จมูกบี้, as it's one I'd never heard spoken. I had only heard จมูกแบน as a slightly derogatory term for 'flat' (thai) nose, but still I'd never heard จมูกบี้ before. Thanx for another vocab word!!

IMHO, there are entirely tooo many thai-gurls who've เสริม'd their จมูก's already in an effort to rid themselves of their flat thai nose.

LOL! That's a nice way of using Thai words with English grammar, I've never seen that before.

(...) FWIW, the thai guys I sit with are all of varying skin tone, and varying birth provinces like; Surin, Buriram, Songkhla, Lampang, Yasothon, Kanchanaburi etc, but I have never seen even the slightest racial categorizing or slurs directed towards each other based solely on skin tone. It only seems to be directed to foreigners with thais-in-tow or to a lesser extent thai people outside their immediate group.

Thanks, I thought I was the only one with this experience.

[tombkk]

"Would you agree that there is a difference between educated urbanites and upcountry people how they see the skin colour issue? In our group of friends, there are people of various shades of skin colour, and it doesn't seem to make any difference."

There appears to be too much significance given by individual "would be's" about skin color - hi-so - lo-so - etc. etc.. Even a previous comment about the "skin-color and hi-so" of a certain president of a powerful nation feels "disingenous" to me. Do I feel he is "hi-so" - no - it just never comes to my mind. Has his skincolor any influence on my opinion about him - no - it never comes to my mind.

As a previous poster stated "various shades of skin colour ... does not seem to make any difference" - except possibly to the pretentious would be's. What makes a difference to me - is attitude.

Are you Thai? I'm curious, as there seems to be a different attitude towards skin colour between westeners and Thais.

[Parvis]

"Would you agree that there is a difference between educated urbanites and upcountry people how they see the skin colour issue? In our group of friends, there are people of various shades of skin colour, and it doesn't seem to make any difference."

There appears to be too much significance given by individual "would be's" about skin color - hi-so - lo-so - etc. etc.. Even a previous comment about the "skin-color and hi-so" of a certain president of a powerful nation feels "disingenous" to me. Do I feel he is "hi-so" - no - it just never comes to my mind. Has his skincolor any influence on my opinion about him - no - it never comes to my mind.

As a previous poster stated "various shades of skin colour ... does not seem to make any difference" - except possibly to the pretentious would be's. What makes a difference to me - is attitude.

Are you Thai? I'm curious, as there seems to be a different attitude towards skin colour between westeners and Thais.

There is a "different attitude" among certain "classes of people" in the West as there is in Thailand that's what I define as the "would like to be's". There certainly is no negative attitude toward skin color from the Isaan farmer.

Edited June 28, 2010 by Parvis

[mikenyork]

Mr Parvis: All I can say about Issan farmers is that my gf's family is as issan and as farmer as you can get, but her niece (now 10) worries incessantly (as does the niece's mother) that she is too "dark" to ever be considered beautiful. And she is joshingly referred to in the family as "ดำ". And of all the issan women I knew in the US over many years, not one was not conscious of skin color and considered it to be more desirable to have lighter than darker skin. And if Mr. Obama's skin color never comes to Mr. Parvis' mind, my congratulations. Very, very, very few westerners could, in all honesty, say the same. That isn't to say that they hate him because of his skin color. But they (we) are never unaware of it. When Tiger Woods appeared on a late night Thai talk show a few years ago, the host introduced him, not as an African American, not as a negro, not as a black, but as a คนไทยผิวเข้ม (!!!)

[Parvis]

Mr Parvis: All I can say about Issan farmers is that my gf's family is as issan and as farmer as you can get, but her niece (now 10) worries incessantly (as does the niece's mother) that she is too "dark" to ever be considered beautiful. And she is joshingly referred to in the family as "ดำ". And of all the issan women I knew in the US over many years, not one was not conscious of skin color and considered it to be more desirable to have lighter than darker skin. And if Mr. Obama's skin color never comes to Mr. Parvis' mind, my congratulations. Very, very, very few westerners could, in all honesty, say the same. That isn't to say that they hate him because of his skin color. But they (we) are never unaware of it. When Tiger Woods appeared on a late night Thai talk show a few years ago, the host introduced him, not as an African American, not as a negro, not as a black, but as a คนไทยผิวเข้ม (!!!)

I believe we are addressing 2 different issues:

1) Consciousness of skincolor because of a current cultural sense of beauty

2) Prejudice because of skincolor

In your examples you appear to be intermingling them. I am certainly aware that Mr Obama is "black" - but I as an American - and most if not all Amercans I know - do not judge him per his skin color.

We appear to be drifting more and more off the original topic.

Edited June 29, 2010 by Parvis

[hiero]

I think the whole skin colour vs beauty thing is quite simple in thai mens eyes:

สาวไทย ๑: Pretty, good body, nice hair, clever, kind, good personality, tall.......... but has dark skin.............. ไม่สวย

สาวไทย ๒: Average................................................................................................... but has pale skin.............. สวย

Status has to come into this as well, i've not met many isaan girls that have pale skin however i've met (and been out with) white skin girls that are central thai's so if you're dating a dark skin girl it's probably more likely she is lower status than a paler girl. I know america from what I have heard is a little different but in the UK at least, it's not odd or strange for say a Doctor to go out with a factory worker, if two people like each other then no probs, but in Thailand I found people stick to their own, so for a thai motorcycle taxi man a pale skin hi-so girl is merely just a fantasy (or at least until he saved up enough to hit a high class massage parlour for his birthday).

For us (farangs) I mean, the skin colour thing doesn't really matter a great deal at least no where near the extent it does to thai men, at least with white girls it's not set in stone what is attractive, so guys like a tanned girl, some like white skin and some even like the fake orange tan! In fact I would take pretty and a good body over the shade of a girls skin anyday

I mean, when I first came to thailand to live (just for 2 years) it was my first time here and my taste in what I found attractive somewhat changed, I at first really liked the dark skin, the flat nose wasn't even an issue, neither was the height but as time progressed perhaps due to the media, talking to thai guys etc etc I somewhat found that those attributes less attractive and the paler skin น่ารักy (<check out that thaienglish) look more pleasing.

Edited June 29, 2010 by hiero

[tombkk]

I think the whole skin colour vs beauty thing is quite simple in thai mens eyes:

สาวไทย ๑: Pretty, good body, nice hair, clever, kind, good personality, tall.......... but has dark skin.............. ไม่สวย

สาวไทย ๒: Average................................................................................................... but has pale skin.............. สวย

Status has to come into this as well, i've not met many isaan girls that have pale skin however i've met (and been out with) white skin girls that are central thai's so if you're dating a dark skin girl it's probably more likely she is lower status than a paler girl. I know america from what I have heard is a little different but in the UK at least, it's not odd or strange for say a Doctor to go out with a factory worker, if two people like each other then no probs, but in Thailand I found people stick to their own, so for a thai motorcycle taxi man a pale skin hi-so girl is merely just a fantasy (or at least until he saved up enough to hit a high class massage parlour for his birthday).

Status has not come into this "as well", but you are mixing up status and skin colour. You are right, a taxi driver would not likely have a hi-so girl as his girl friend, but that is due to status. Even if the taxi driver were very pale.

[hiero]

of course I think I didn't mention it as i've never seen a pale skinned taxi driver. I suppose girls prefer guys with paler skin however i'm not sure if they're anywhere near as into it as the guys are.

[GarryP]

What was the subject of this thread again? It seems to have gone off at a tangent. Perhaps it should be changed to as soon as they saw your wife/gf's skin color they knew where you learned your Thai. And before someone gets all upset, I'm just extracting the urine.

[Tod Daniels]

WOW, I concur, this thread really took a tangent!!

FWIW, it is also my experience that foreigners who learn thai from female teachers will sometimes early on in their studies have a slightly different inflection than ones who learned from male thai language teachers. IMHO male thai language teachers are awfully thin on the ground; as it seems to me to be a nearly totally female dominated profession.

I'm not saying the foreigners were คะ, ค่ะ or น่ะจ๋า'ing, but they had an inflection which was apparent to thais who heard them speaking. Once they (the foreign students) got the confidence to use their own voice's timber and tone they straighten out, but I have seen it with my own ears .

I still remember a russian guy in my language class (at a school which shall remain nameless); who mimicked the teacher to such an extent that he spoke thai in a falsetto voice. This was a 250+lb, 6'6" tall guy. FWIW he spoke really clear thai, just with a Mickey Mouse kinda voice. It’s been more than a year since I went to school, but I did happen to run into him a few months back by chance when I was out and about. Now he speaks in his normal voice, so a big plus for him in that regard.

Hopefully, if the thread hasn't run its course, and doesn’t get closed by the Modz for going so far off topic it will veer naturally back onto the title of the thread.

I will even provide it (the title of the thread) here for the incredibly thick or just plain stupid ;

"As Soon As You Opened Your Mouth They Probably Knew Where You Learnt Your Thai From"

[sanook2me]

My tv is next to my computer and at home when talking with Thai wife...i find myself talking like a game show host

almost waiting for the Thai drum/guitar bong..to come in at the end of my sentences! scary...

Luckily its only at home..not outside...quite bizarre....