How To Gain Parental Rights As A Father

[chris5346]

hi mario,

i'm just wondering what's the difference between going to court and getting a petition or marrying the mother ? or going to the ampur at age 5 ?

our daughter is less than 2 years old .

if i was to marry the mother and then get divorced would i be back at square one ? also what happens when the mother dies ?

i'm thinking of buying a property and settling here but i want to make sure i can stay here for all possible outcomes.

i would prefer not to goto court if possible , if we goto an ampur in a couple of years time to add me could that be used to extend my type - o visa ? even if i have seperated from the mother ?

regards,

chris

[Mario2008]

When you marry the mother, you will legitimize the child with that and have full custody together with the mother. If the mother dies, you will have sole custody over the child. Should you divorce, you will have shared custody togehter with the mother.

If you legitimize the child, you can use your child as reason of staying in Thailand on extensions of stay from immigration only if you and the child live together. if you don't live together, you cannot get extension of stay but you cna get a multiple non-O visa to visit your child. A multiple non-O you can get already based on your name on the child's birth certificate, but will have to get in Australia or Europe. Normally in the region only a single will be issued.

[chris5346]

thanks mario that makes sense.

i'm from the u.k but could i get a 1 year visa from australia ?

[Mario2008]

thanks mario that makes sense.

i'm from the u.k but could i get a 1 year visa from australia ?

That would be no problem.

[RentingFairly]

A multiple non-O you can get already based on your name on the child's birth certificate, but will have to get in Australia or Europe. Normally in the region only a single will be issued.

My situation is living with Thai Girlfriend and child in Chonburi. Child is less than one year. I don't like the court process. I went to Chonburi Family Court and the woman called Krung was really unhelpful. the people there kept asking why I did not just marry my girlfriend. (I did not explain, but it's for religious reasons) They insisted I must get a lawyer and it will take a long time and it will be expensive.

I would rather wait a few years for my child to be old enough to get me the parental rights at the Amphur office.

My question Mario is that since my name is on the Child's Thai Birth Certificate as the Father, and I am a Canadian citizen,

#1) Could I get the Multiple Non-O in Australia or Canada?

Much cheaper, much faster, and much less hassle than Family Court.

#2) With this Multiple Non-O visa could I stay 12 months straight in Thailand OR enter and leave Thailand many times within a year if I so wished on the one visa?

I have also learned what I think might be the Thai word for legal parental rights. It's called "Rab Rong Boot" I believe.

#3) Any recommendations which consulates in Australia would be accommodating?

Cheers!

[Mario2008]

The court process should be straight forward and cost around 10,000 baht. it isn't a difficult case and takes a few months. A lot of the cost would depend on the lawyers fee, that is why one should shop around a bit. As it is a clear cut case, no need for a hotshot lawyer.

If you want to wait till the child turns 7, you can get a multiple non-O in Australia without much difficulty. Brisbane seems to be a good option, many memebrs have good experiences with them.

The mutliple non-O is valid for 1 year and would allow you to travel an unlimited number of times to Thailand during that year, each time you enter you can stay for up to 90 days. Than you have to leave but can come right back the same day. You cannot stay on it for 1 year without leaving the country, for that you would need to legitimize your child. But by leaving and re-entering the country just before the visa expires, you get a new 90 days and so can get almost 15 months out of the visa.

The visa cost is 5,000 baht in local currency, so finacial wise legitimization is cheaper.

[silentnine]

bit of an old thread i know , but pinned..

i am on my (half) thai sons birth certificate as farther .. so under thai rules i'm not dad unless we go to court or jump thru some more hoops at the amphur ..

however we also have a british birth certicate on which i'm named as the father .. as far as british law goes this makes me dad

so where does this stand ?

[Mario2008]

In the UK you will be the legal father, but in Thailand you are not the legal father as the child was born in Thailand and should be legitimized according to Thai law.

If the child is 7 years or older, it is a very easy and simple process. If the child is younger, the court option will cost a bit more with you and your wife agreeing that you are the father a very simple matter. Marriage will do the same.

[brizzle]

I went to my local ampur the other day (where my 4 year old daughters birth was registered) in the hope (longshot I know) that I might get the necessary legitimisation. They referred me to the family court (fair enough) but what annoyed me was they refused to admit that I could complete the legitimisation process at the ampur together with the mother and our daughter at any time in the future (7 years or otherwise).

I was not surprised however ....this was the same ampur that at birth tried to insist that Thai law did not allow me the choice of my daughters first name....she had to be given a Thai name ....suffice to say after a bit of a hoo ha my daughter was given our chosen name and they had to stand corrected.

Mario (or anyone else that might know)...where can I obtain the evidence that the ampur can / should legitmise a birth if the mother,father and child are present and all agree to this? I am referring to the child being at least 7 years old. It would be really nice to give them their second serving of humble pie in four years ...all done in a very Thai non agressive manner of course

[Mario2008]

Stirctly speaking the amphur was right about your child's name. Under Thai law you are not the legal father and a Thai national can only have a name that has a meaning in Thai. They might allow a name change when you become the legal father.

The rules about legitimizing a child are stated in Book V (family law) of the Thai civil code.

http://www.thailawonline.com/images/thaicivilcode/book%205%20title%201-3%20thai%20civil%20and%20commercial%20code%20.pdf

Section 1547 gives the rules for your case and says that it can be done at the amphur. The law doesn't give a specific age at which a child is deemed caple to agree, in general an age of 7 years is what amphurs want, but some will allow as young as 4 years old. Especially up-country.

If you have problems with the amphur, you cna contact the dpeartment of provincial administration: www.dopa.go.th or call 1111, the government hotline for information.

[brizzle]

Many thanks Mario the links are appreciated regarding any future legitimisation at the amphur. One more question if I may...if I move to a different area of Thailand can I try again at the amphur in that area or must I return to the amphur where the birth was registered?

Regarding the Thai name thing am I correct in assuming that it would be law irrespective of whether you are the legal father or not? After all my child would still have been a Thai national even If I had been married to her mother.

Incidentally her mother changed her own first name to an Indian one which had no Thai meaning when she was 24 with no problems, so insisting that you must have a first name with a Thai meaning at birth only to be allowed to change it when you are older seems to be a law that is a little quirky .

I would add that the amphur were quite happy to give our daughter my anglo saxon surname even though I was evidentally not regarded as the legal father but still had a problem with her first and middle names. For me Thai logic is certainly hard to understand sometimes....

[Mario2008]

You deal with the amphur where the child is registered on the household book, if you move the registration you would deal with a different amphur.

I'm not sure if the law allows it, but when a child (also) has another nationality a foreign name is allowed, just as a Thai can take the last name of the spouse. Being the legal father would give the child a foreign father and a foreign name would be allowed.

A lot depends on the amphur. Some amphurs will allow a foreign name if you are mentioned on the birth certificate, but not the legal father (yet). Some are more strict and follow the letter of the law. And yes, some seem to change their policy from time to time.

[brizzle]

Thank you again Mario you have been very helpful .

[mussen]

The cost for this process has been quoted as anywhere from 10K - 100K on this forum, maybe people who have done this process already can post the name/contact details of the lawyer they used as well as some prices?

[Mario2008]

It is largely the lawyer that determines the price. Especially when the mother doesn't contest you are the fahter, one of the cheapest will do. Some people seem to do it themselves, but that would require knowledge of Thai.

[jonnog]

Mario, can I ask a question please.

My Thai partner and I are not married but our daughter (aged four) has my surname (her full name - using my surname - is written on the birth certificate and in my partner's house registration). Does this make me the legal father of my daughter, and do you think this would be sufficient evidence of proof of having legal custody of the child (as per Hull's recent updated message on non-immigrant visas).

I am suspecting your answer is no on both counts but just want to check...

Many thanks indeed

J

[Mario2008]

My answer is indeed no on both.

You will have to legitimize your child by way of the amphur or the court if she is not old enough. Than get a letter from the amphur stating you are the legal fahter.

[mussen]

Here are 2 replies from separate lawyers,

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Reply 1-

Our professional fee is as follows:

15,500 THB plus 7% VAT

- if the child can read and write his/her name, then we can accompany the family to the District Office together to sign the application and consent letter. The Official will register the legal paternity.

29,500 THB plus 7% VAT

- If the child cannot read and write his/her own name (too young), the father has to file the request to the Court to get the Court Order for legal paternity establishment. Then, we take the court order to the District Office and the Official will register the legal paternity pursuant to the Court Order.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Reply 2-

It depends where is the case if it is contested, etc. Normally between 30,000 and 90,000 baht. It will take 4 to 6 months in Court. 30,000 would be a case not contested in Nakhon Ratchasima. A case anywhere in Isaan whould be less then 70,000 baht.

[Mario2008]

No lawyer needed for legalisation at the amphur, unless the amphur refuses to play by the law. But than a village headman or influantial person might be just as effective.

[mussen]

No lawyer needed for legalisation at the amphur, unless the amphur refuses to play by the law. But than a village headman or influantial person might be just as effective.

Does legalisation at the amphur make the Father the legal Father recognised by Thai law?

[Mario2008]

Yes, it is one of the 3 ways in which you can become the legal father.

Note that some immigraiton offices seem to require that you go to court, but not many reports about that.

[jonnog]

Many thanks, for your replies on this subject Mario. You are a diamond.

Cheers

J

[wedders]

In the process of arranging a divorce by mutual consent. In theory the papers will be drawn up giving me sole custody of our 3 yo daughter. I spend 6 months a year in France, 6 months in Thailand in total. The mother rarely sees her daughter, her choice. I've been here in Thailand for the last 3 months, she's seen her daughter for 5 days.

The daughter has therefore lived almost exclusively with me since last July.

BUT.

If for whatever reason, the divorce (and custody orders) don't go through in time for my planned return to France end March (with daughter, who has British and Thai passports).... am I likely to encounter any problems at the airport - where my daughter will use her Thai passport to leave Thailand? She has to use it, rather than the British passport, because she entered on the Thai passport, her British one therefore has no entry visa. Am I likely to be asked for her mother's permission for her to leave Thai territory, in writing?

Any other thoughts on this? Just want to prepare the ground, should any obstacles be encountered in the divorce/custody, and therefore not be completed before I have to leave Thailand with my daughter.

Ok if the divorce doesn't go through in time, we are still technically married, I know. But even so...

[mussen]

Can I ask, when the Father becomes the legal Father of the child, are they supplied with a new documents which shows this? If so, who issues that document? Or does it depend on if the courts are used or only the Ampour?

[Mario2008]

In the process of arranging a divorce by mutual consent. In theory the papers will be drawn up giving me sole custody of our 3 yo daughter. I spend 6 months a year in France, 6 months in Thailand in total. The mother rarely sees her daughter, her choice. I've been here in Thailand for the last 3 months, she's seen her daughter for 5 days.

The daughter has therefore lived almost exclusively with me since last July.

BUT.

If for whatever reason, the divorce (and custody orders) don't go through in time for my planned return to France end March (with daughter, who has British and Thai passports).... am I likely to encounter any problems at the airport - where my daughter will use her Thai passport to leave Thailand? She has to use it, rather than the British passport, because she entered on the Thai passport, her British one therefore has no entry visa. Am I likely to be asked for her mother's permission for her to leave Thai territory, in writing?

Any other thoughts on this? Just want to prepare the ground, should any obstacles be encountered in the divorce/custody, and therefore not be completed before I have to leave Thailand with my daughter.

Ok if the divorce doesn't go through in time, we are still technically married, I know. But even so...

You might have a problem. Under a relatively new rule, immigration can ask to see proof that you have permisison from the other parent to travel with your child if you don't have sole custody. It doesn't seem to be checked that often, but ocasionally does.

Best is to try and get a small note from the mother together with a copy of her ID-card giving you permision.

[Mario2008]

Can I ask, when the Father becomes the legal Father of the child, are they supplied with a new documents which shows this? If so, who issues that document? Or does it depend on if the courts are used or only the Ampour?

Legalisation is registered by the amphur. If done by judgement of the court, you go with the judgement to the amphur to have it registered there.

The amphur can give a document stating who the parents of a child are.

[sunny6301]

So if I had to go through all of that for something that has no legal bearing, what in the lord's name will they require me to do to legalize/legitmize myself as my son's father? Will I have to juggle 4 fire sticks while simultaneously cooking a flawless dish of pad thai coong while my son chants "Go, Papa, Go!"

i love this quote scotty !

personally, i am not married but am on my son's thai birth certificate (born in Bangkok) and also listed as the father on my son's tambian baan (grandmothers house way up north). My son's mother went to the amphur herself, they never asked for a marriage certificate, did I luck out ?? as reading other posts unmarried fathers aren't considered legit unless they are married, ?

[Mario2008]

So if I had to go through all of that for something that has no legal bearing, what in the lord's name will they require me to do to legalize/legitmize myself as my son's father? Will I have to juggle 4 fire sticks while simultaneously cooking a flawless dish of pad thai coong while my son chants "Go, Papa, Go!"

i love this quote scotty !

personally, i am not married but am on my son's thai birth certificate (born in Bangkok) and also listed as the father on my son's tambian baan (grandmothers house way up north). My son's mother went to the amphur herself, they never asked for a marriage certificate, did I luck out ?? as reading other posts unmarried fathers aren't considered legit unless they are married, ?

You are not the legal father of the child, till you either:

- marry the mother

OR

- go to court and petition to be recognised as the legal father

OR

- go to the amphur with mother and child and make a claim that you are the fahter of the child. (For this the child has to be at least about 7 years old, but some smaller amphurs do it at an earlier age).

[mussen]

So if I had to go through all of that for something that has no legal bearing, what in the lord's name will they require me to do to legalize/legitmize myself as my son's father? Will I have to juggle 4 fire sticks while simultaneously cooking a flawless dish of pad thai coong while my son chants "Go, Papa, Go!"

i love this quote scotty !

personally, i am not married but am on my son's thai birth certificate (born in Bangkok) and also listed as the father on my son's tambian baan (grandmothers house way up north). My son's mother went to the amphur herself, they never asked for a marriage certificate, did I luck out ?? as reading other posts unmarried fathers aren't considered legit unless they are married, ?

You are not the legal father of the child, till you either:

- marry the mother

OR

- go to court and petition to be recognised as the legal father

OR

- go to the amphur with mother and child and make a claim that you are the fahter of the child. (For this the child has to be at least about 7 years old, but some smaller amphurs do it at an earlier age).

Would it be worth the time to go to the local ampour with a 1 year old child (plus Dad and Mum), plus the childs grandfather who works for the local council, to see if they will do it before going through the court?

[Mario2008]

In all likelyhood not. A 1 year old child cannot confirm you are the fahter, as their speech and intellect has not developed enough.

As said, there are some cases where a minor under 7 years old was accepted to make a statement, but they were at least 3 or 4 years old. (The law doesn't give an age, it only says that the child must agree/confirm that you are the fahter. The general norm set by amphurs seems to be 7 years).