Prostitution : Is It Wrong To Pay For Sex ?

[mark45y]

It is no secret that there are a fair number of office workers, students, moonlighting moms and others involved in the sex trade.

What sort of percentage do you think that is?

I can tell you where to find out. Check out the college schedules in Bangkok, when tuition is due. Then go to Pattaya the week before tuition has to be paid. There is one particular area they all head to.

In Chiang Mai there is one university that is quite well known in that area but will let UG explain that one.

I would not doubt it. But tiny tiny numbers in the big picture.

You are probably right in Thailand as a whole. But Chiang Mai is notorious in trading for cell phones.

Pattaya certain times of the year in certain places look like a uni girl convention.

Bars in smaller town in the industrial areas the first couple of weeks of summer vacation, the karaoke bars must be seen to be believed.

I’m sure it is a small number in the overall picture but it is season and date sensitive. Enter a bar on the right day during the right month and you would swear it was a big part of the picture.

The good or bad part depending on your point of view is that participation is getting greater every year as the ladies realize just how independent they are.

[Ulysses G.]

Why have "a guess" when there is no way that it could be accurate? Sure, lots of sex workers are poor and need money, but there are plenty of other jobs.

[MB1]

Quoting F1fanatic...

Yes, bar hostesses learn to speak a reasonable amount of English as it benefits their trade - but have no education/intelligence whatsoever.

I've known an ex-bargirl for many years in Thailand, she had an education and attended university, she got married to a Malaysian man in Thailand and had 3 children, he left her with the children and never paid her any maintainance for her children some years ago and now he lives in Malaysia.

Guess what she did, she became a bargirl and quite a sucessful one after time, her mother when she was away working looked after the children ensuring they all went to school paid for by prostitution, the house they lived in was paid for by prostitution, so was the pick up her mother drove, also clothes and food etc, her mother also ran a small neighbourhood shop which was bought from the proceeds of prostitution.

Her eldest son is now at college studying and hopes to become a mechanic, her two other children are still at school and doing rather well.

The woman I write about now owns 2 houses and a shop, she also has a 1.5 million baht car for her use the children all have motor bikes and her mother has the pick up.

I'd say this woman I write about has education and is also very intelligent, and happens to be one of the nicest, kindest people I have ever met...

Don't tar em all with the same brush.

Good luck to them - any idiot that believes a woman he met in a bar actually cares about him, deserves what he gets

I take it you can back that statement up with facts, if you can't then it's obviously BS.

Edited July 19, 2010 by MB1

[GuestHouse]

Why have "a guess" when there is no way that it could be accurate? Sure, lots of sex workers are poor and need money, but there are plenty of other jobs.

I think we've established the background of the vast majority of Thai prostitutes as being poor, ill educated and likely single mothers.

As a proponent of buying sex from Thai prostitutes you are in defense of buying sex from poor, ill educated women who are likely single mothers - OK you might avoid the single mothers if you check out that detail first.

Meanwhile you rant against anyone who calls buying sex from poor, ill educated women who are likely single mothers.

What a sad mess to be in.

[Ulysses G.]

Nah.... Your making it up. A smoke screen to avoid the truth

I do not have to make anything up or avoid the truth. You, however, keep spinning and spinning, as your feminist sayings are just Puritanical nonsense and you can not even come close to defending them realistically.

Unfortunately, there are a lot of religious types and radical feminists that make up the same kind of dishonest rhetoric. The world is full of holier-than-thou hypocrites.

When someone cannot choose, they cannot freely give consent.

Edited July 19, 2010 by Ulysses G.

[GuestHouse]

Don't tar em all with the same brush.

I'm not aware of a single derogatory post towards prostitutes in this whole thread - Some generalizations about them being drug addicts or merciless materialists, but I'm sure that is a statement that is true of many (but by no means all) - That asside, I've not seen any derogatory comments regarding the personal character of Thai prostitutes - from either side of the debate.

[GuestHouse]

Nah.... Your making it up. A smoke screen to avoid the truth

I do not have to make anything up or avoid the truth. You, however, keep spinning and spinning, as your feminist sayings are just Puritanical nonsense and you can not even come close to defending them realistically.

When someone cannot choose, they cannot freely give consent.

We've had a number of people on both sides of this debate agree that nothing I've said has anything to do with feminism - You've now added 'Puritanical' and I must return once again to an observation I made earlier - You do have a habit of sticking a label on arguments or points of view you can't deal with.

----

Do you disagree with the statement

When someone cannot choose, they cannot freely give consent.

If so, how do you disagree?

Do try to stick to the question!!

[Ulysses G.]

Spin, spin spin. You fit these "labels" perfectly and you use exactly the same rhetoric that they do.

It has already been pointed out that your little saying does not apply to most women in the sex trade in Thailand. Why do I need to repeat it?

Edited July 19, 2010 by Ulysses G.

[MB1]

Don't tar em all with the same brush.

I'm not aware of a single derogatory post towards prostitutes in this whole thread - Some generalizations about them being drug addicts or merciless materialists, but I'm sure that is a statement that is true of many (but by no means all) - That asside, I've not seen any derogatory comments regarding the personal character of Thai prostitutes - from either side of the debate.

I was referring to the post that implied to me that that bargirls have no education/intelligence whatsoever, or did I read it wrongly..Quoted below..

Yes, bar hostesses learn to speak a reasonable amount of English as it benefits their trade - but have no education/intelligence whatsoever.

Edited July 19, 2010 by MB1

[bonobo]

Last warning.  Keep from accusing each other of lying, keep the name-calling, etc., and this thread will be closed.

[elkangorito]

Here is the OP's question:

People have their own perception when it comes to to the word ‘Prostitution’... men look at it as a service industry, a place where they can hump women for a certain amount of money without any string attach... there even a phrase " If you want to drink milk, dont have to buy the whole cow "...for some countries (mostly in Europe), prostitution is a legal industry.....

Maybe u guys have something to share about this ‘pay for sex’ thing, is it wrong to pay for sex..?

Here is (possibly) a point of contention:

Even marriage is a ‘Pay for sex’ event...the thing is,...we pay once for a lifetime of sex.

My answer to the question is "No". How can it possibly be wrong?! It's a job for some, a necessity for some & enjoyment for some. The 'morally correct' may have a differing opinion.

[Thongkorn]

Why have "a guess" when there is no way that it could be accurate? Sure, lots of sex workers are poor and need money, but there are plenty of other jobs.

Yes 300 baht for a twelve hour shift, or if you are Burmese half that, So I can see why they do it , I see it as, they are victims. Not all want to prostitute themselves, some of them do it to live. Instead of going to Pattaya some people should go to the real Thailand, in the out backs then maybe they would see the real Thailand and not just a sess pit of the low lifes of the world.

[IanForbes]

Guesthouse quote: - "When someone cannot choose, they cannot freely give consent."

I would agree; but that applies to just about everything in life. It certainly has some significance in certain aspects of the prostitution trade... but not all. I doubt if anyone could logically disagree that coming from a poor background doesn't have some bearing on the number of prostitutes in Thailand. But to deny that there are not other choices for the majority of women who CHOOSE to enter the prostitution trade is also wrong. I've known too many personal examples to believe otherwise. And again, there is not a thing that any westerner living or visiting Thailand can do about it. Every farang in Thailand could give everything they own to the poor of Thailand and it wouldn't change a thing. All that would happen is there would be a bunch of poor farangs to go along with all the poor Thais. The wealthy Thais in Thailand are the only ones who could make a difference and that is not going to happen any time soon. it starts from the top down and touches on subjects we can't discuss on this forum.

All we can do is treat everyone with respect and let the rest of the world sort itself out. It's easy to talk about what could be and should be, but the truth is that none of us can change a thing no matter what we believe or do. I've got lots of friends who are hookers and very few of them do I use their services. But, that doesn't mean we don't enjoy each other's company. I help out the ones that need help occasionally, but they know enough not to treat me like an ATM machine. I've listened to all their stories and know what they go through. They have no reason to tell me lies.

[MB1]

Why have "a guess" when there is no way that it could be accurate? Sure, lots of sex workers are poor and need money, but there are plenty of other jobs.

Yes 300 baht for a twelve hour shift, or if you are Burmese half that, So I can see why they do it , I see it as, they are victims. Not all want to prostitute themselves, some of them do it to live. Instead of going to Pattaya some people should go to the real Thailand, in the out backs then maybe they would see the real Thailand and not just a sess pit of the low lifes of the world.

I've been to some of them outbacks, and I've seen bars and brothels with prostitutes that cater for Thai's and hardly any farang ever go there, they don't know where they are.

Thailand has a long history of prostitution and was alive and kicking well before places like Pattaya was born.

Yes some do it to live and some do it to feed their familys back home but some do it purely for the money they earn, and until things really change in Thailand their not going to stop doing it.

Some women will tell you that they hate what they do to make money and then they'll tell you that they can't earn as much money any other way, they don't want to work in a fish factory or chicken factory or the rice fields or labouring on a building site or work in the likes of Mcdonalds, KFC etc etc for small money, they want more and as long as pay is so poor in Thailand for jobs like I mention then prostitution is going to be a big earner for many women in Thailand, why work in a factory for a pittance when some women can earn 1000, maybe 2000, maybe even 3000 baht from one man for one night.

[Thongkorn]

This has to b:De one of the funniest posts I've read in a long time. Fair play!

On the topic itself, no, it's not wrong, and it shouldn't be illegal. Along as both parties consent and are of legal age.

Actually it was one of the best posts written.

If one party is starving an sells the only thing they have, there body, is that consenting or surviving.

[473geo]

Just a couple of points here

The remarks that sex and relationship can get confused...........well in my experience sex is consistently better in a longer term relationship.......maybe it is more about pleasing the woman also?..........so in my world there is a connection.

The 'jobs' available to poor people....have any of you been to a big Thai funeral..........and seen the amount of old ladies bent double it really is quite distressing.........not through sexual activity......but day after day of hand planting and reaping......try it some time......these very proud ladies worked like slaves for a pittance for years.

[rott]

Is it <deleted> wrong to pay for it. Get stuck in and enjoy yourself, pay a fair price and treat her right. Prostate cancer (or worse) may be just around the corner, enjoy what you can while you can.

[Shotime]

What a discussion for such a simple question, and such a display of emotions.

There's no doubt that sex with a long-term companion is best. However, in most cases, how long does that last? What's important is caring for one another. People seem to place so much importance on the sexual part of a relationship. I'm not rying to say you should cause your partner pain, or even indulge in sex with someone other than your soul-mate, but what's the big deal, anyway. Sex is for fun.

My greatest wish is to be reincarnated as a beautiful girl, and live anywhere. It's actually a handicap. You can pick your partner, and make out on the financial side, too. Maybe, a lot of us forget whjat it's like to be 18. If I get my wish, and I was born in Thailand, I probably would never see 30.

[GreenSnapper]

This raises a question - When someone cannot choose, they cannot freely give consent.

There are plenty of poor Thai people who choose not to work in the sex industry and makes ends meet with common jobs. As usual, on this subject, your rhetoric has little to do with reality.

Typical 1970 feminist drivel.

I just wonder how people can repeat that over and over again. A quick look at reality would show that 99% of Thai women don't work in the sex industry, and therefore are not forced at all.

[David006]

Slightly different perspective:

Question 1: Which is more important to you: your mind or your body?

If you're unsure perhaps consider: Would you rather have a physical disability with a healthy mind or a mental disability living in a vegetative state but with a healthy body?

Question 2: How many people sell or rent their mind or brain day in day out in their work?

Question 3: For those that consider their mind more important than their body what does that say about those using their brains at work all day to earn a salary?

Some people sell/rent their minds, some people sell/rent their bodies... is life really that simple?

I'll leave judgements to others...

Exactly what I always thought...a very valid point..

The only sex without payment in some form is rape, work without payment is slavery..?

[Ulysses G.]

If one party is starving an sells the only thing they have, there body, is that consenting or surviving.

That is exactly the point. Almost no one is starving in Thailand.

These women have figured out a way to get the material things that they want and need in greater quantities than their neighbors. Some enjoy it and some don't, but all of them want the cash - much like any other job. They choose to do it, rather than something else that meets basic needs, but for much less money. Claiming that most are forced into the sex industry is so much balderdash.

[Shotime]

When I was working, my boss used to say to me "I feel like I'm selling my time." He was one of the nicest, most caring people I've ever known.

We're all whores if you want to look at it that way.

Edit to add that here in the States, teenage girls work out of the malls to earn some extra money so they can go shopping. It's not even a consumable.

Edited July 19, 2010 by Shotime

[MB1]

This has to b:De one of the funniest posts I've read in a long time. Fair play!

On the topic itself, no, it's not wrong, and it shouldn't be illegal. Along as both parties consent and are of legal age.

Actually it was one of the best posts written.

If one party is starving an sells the only thing they have, there body, is that consenting or surviving.

I'd say IMO it's "surviving whilst consenting", whilst it may be sad that someone who was starving and had to sell their body to put a morsel in their mouth, they consented of their own free will, they chose to feed or starve, but I seriously doubt IMO that many women who choose the path of prostitution are actually starving ( This includes Western women and Thai, Phillipines, Cambodian, Vietnamese, Chinese etc, etc) many women who choose to take the path of prostitution do so of their own free will and do it for for monertary gain and have various reasons for doing so, in Thailand whilst it may be illegal it's a big part of Thai culture and also a part of the economy which is IMO one of the reasons that whilst it's illegal, prostitution in Thailand is allowed to thrive.

Now if your forced against your own free will to become a prostitute, enslaved, human trafficking etc then IMO it's wrong, but how do we differentiate who's who, unless we talk to them and understand why they became involved in prostitution.

When I first came to Thailand years ago I was known and referred to in my home town as Thailand ****, name removed but guess if you will, it's only a 4 letter name, no flaming please, C U next Tuesday.

I was invlolved sexually with a woman in the UK who was divorced and had one child, and she regulary called me a dirty whore monger and asked why I visited Thailand, over the years we had numerous coversations regarding Thailand and she had the Western view that men only visited Thailand for sexual purposes, years later her mother and father semi-retired to Thailand and have bought a condo and spend 6 months per year in Thailand, she now visits regulary and brings her child to Thailand for holidays 2 to 3 times a year whilst visiting family, guess what, we now have adult coversations with regards to Thailand and her view on me, Thailand and Thai women has changed.

Edited July 20, 2010 by MB1

[IanForbes]

A man is driving down a deserted stretch of highway in Thailand when he

notices a sign out of the corner of his eye...

It reads:

SISTERS OF ST. FRANCIS

HOUSE OF PROSTITUTION

10 MILES

He thinks this is a figment of his imagination and drives on....

Soon he sees another sign which reads:

SISTERS OF ST. FRANCIS

HOUSE OF PROSTITUTION

5 MILES

Suddenly he begins to realize that these signs are for real and drives past a third

sign saying:

SISTERS OF ST. FRANCIS

HOUSE OF PROSTITUTION

NEXT RIGHT

His curiosity gets the best of him and he pulls into the drive...

On the far side of the parking lot is a stone building with a small sign next to the door reading:

SISTERS OF ST. FRANCIS

He climbs the steps and rings the bell .

The door is answered by a nun in a long black habit who asks, 'What may we do

for you my son?'

He answers, 'I saw your signs along the highway and was interested in possibly

doing business.... .'

'Very well my son. Please follow me.' He is led through many winding passages and

is soon quite disoriented. The nun stops at a closed door and tells the man, 'Please knock on this door.'

He does so and another nun in a long habit, holding a tin cup answers the door... This nun instructs, 'Please place 1000 baht in the cup then go through the large wooden door at the end of the hallway.'

He puts 1000 baht in the cup, eagerly trots down the hall and slips through the door pulling it shut behind him.

The door locks, and he finds himself back in the parking lot facing another sign:

GO IN PEACE.

YOU HAVE JUST BEEN SCREWED BY

THE SISTERS OF ST. FRANCIS.

SERVES YOU RIGHT, YOU SINNER.

[MJP]

If one party is starving an sells the only thing they have, there body, is that consenting or surviving.

That is exactly the point. Almost no one is starving in Thailand.

These women have figured out a way to get the material things that they want and need in greater quantities than their neighbors. Some enjoy it and some don't, but all of them want the cash - much like any other job. They choose to do it, rather than something else that meets basic needs, but for much less money. Claiming that most are forced into the sex industry is so much balderdash.

Exactly what my Thai sister-in-law says when I show any 'it's wrong and it's not right and I feel sorry for them' attitude.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

If you go into a bar and ask the bar girl about her family you will get the same sob story she tells everyone. She has been telling that story in Thai bars before Falang bars so she has the Thai version down pat even better than the Falang version.

Huh.. Most of my conversations sooner or later hit on background and family stuff, and it's virtually never a sob story. Worst case is she misses her kid who's raised by her mum, but also those conversations quickly turn positive and proud, like every parent is proud of their kids.

I'd agree with you, things have changed, 20 years ago I more than once left my brief case/camera/jacket and wallet in a bar, only to have it returned un touched the next day. I don't think that would happen now.

Done that a couple times. Times don't really change. Your view of the past may get a slight pink tinge with time, as if you could reliably leave you wallet in a bar in 1990 and count 100% on it still being there the next day. Note that anecdotes don't make data: Sure there will absolutely be times when you did that 20 years ago and it was still there. The same can and does still happen today. Very little change.

There are 2.8 million hookers in Thailand. How many good girls are there?

What a sobering statistic.

( So many women, so litttle time. )

Its difficult to admit - but the poor, uneducated woman could always work in a 7-11 etc.

7-Eleven would likely require (or prefer) M6.

Edited July 20, 2010 by WinnieTheKhwai

[WinnieTheKhwai]

But at least we have established that when buying sex from a Thai prostitute one is doing so from someone who is almost certainly poor, ill educated and likely under pressure to provide of a child or children.

mmmmm

I can only assume you also don't buy any other product or service provided by anyone who's not independently wealthy.

And where Western labor and safety standards were applied throughout the supply chain.

I guess that's possible.

Edited July 20, 2010 by WinnieTheKhwai

[cardholder]

Why have "a guess" when there is no way that it could be accurate? Sure, lots of sex workers are poor and need money, but there are plenty of other jobs.

I think we've established the background of the vast majority of Thai prostitutes as being poor, ill educated and likely single mothers.

As a proponent of buying sex from Thai prostitutes you are in defense of buying sex from poor, ill educated women who are likely single mothers - OK you might avoid the single mothers if you check out that detail first.

Meanwhile you rant against anyone who calls buying sex from poor, ill educated women who are likely single mothers.

What a sad mess to be in.

I am not sure if you realise how pretentious that post sounds.

The background of a Thai prostitute is irrelevant. It is not rocket science to imagine that most, but by no means all, are from a poor, rural background, Statistically, most students are from an impoverished background because that is what dominates Thailand social structure.

As a guess, I would say there are more divirced/widowed bar workers with children than there are 'single mothers' - I smell a Western stereotype coming out in GH's posts.

None of these facts are of any relevance when engaging in a transaction with a bar girl. Her bank balance or social background is unlikely to feature high on the discussion agenda - except for GuestHouse who obviously wants to see evidence of her university degree and a chanote showing a good address in Bangkok !.

"What ever floats your boat" is what will determine whether you choose to buy. Different people look for different things.

Remember also that many girls are not looking to be 'saved' from the industry. They enjoy it and are financially successful. Many stories abount where a girl is reeling in 100,000 Baht + from a series of boyfriends. However, the vast majority will be looking to improve their life and find the money to satisfy the 'debt' to their parents.

[GuestHouse]

Why have "a guess" when there is no way that it could be accurate? Sure, lots of sex workers are poor and need money, but there are plenty of other jobs.

I think we've established the background of the vast majority of Thai prostitutes as being poor, ill educated and likely single mothers.

As a proponent of buying sex from Thai prostitutes you are in defense of buying sex from poor, ill educated women who are likely single mothers - OK you might avoid the single mothers if you check out that detail first.

Meanwhile you rant against anyone who calls buying sex from poor, ill educated women who are likely single mothers.

What a sad mess to be in.

I am not sure if you realise how pretentious that post sounds.

The background of a Thai prostitute is irrelevant. It is not rocket science to imagine that most, but by no means all, are from a poor, rural background, Statistically, most students are from an impoverished background because that is what dominates Thailand social structure.

As a guess, I would say there are more divirced/widowed bar workers with children than there are 'single mothers' - I smell a Western stereotype coming out in GH's posts.

None of these facts are of any relevance when engaging in a transaction with a bar girl. Her bank balance or social background is unlikely to feature high on the discussion agenda - except for GuestHouse who obviously wants to see evidence of her university degree and a chanote showing a good address in Bangkok !.

"What ever floats your boat" is what will determine whether you choose to buy. Different people look for different things.

Remember also that many girls are not looking to be 'saved' from the industry. They enjoy it and are financially successful. Many stories abount where a girl is reeling in 100,000 Baht + from a series of boyfriends. However, the vast majority will be looking to improve their life and find the money to satisfy the 'debt' to their parents.

The point is not posession of Chonotes, or education or a good address - The point is a single mother , poor, ill educated may very well not have the choice to do anything else than sell her body. And if she does not have any alternative then her she can not freely give consent.

A secondary point is to refer to the attitudes many posters in this thread have to women who are well educated, affluent. That'd be the western women so many rant against.

[Ulysses G.]

The point is a single mother , poor, ill educated may very well not have the choice to do anything else than sell her body. And if she does not have any alternative then her she can not freely give consent.

You do not have to be rich or well educated to sell food from a cart - like much of Thailand does. She has a choice.