"ว่า . . . หรือไม่"

[DavidHouston]

Friends,

I need some assistance in understanding a bit of a long sentence from the news. These clauses were stated just as the are below in two separate lines but appear to constitute parts of the same sentence.

"กำลังถูกจับตาจากองค์กรและนักสิทธิมนุษยชนทั้งในประเทศและต่างประเทศว่า

นอกจากจะเป็นการใช้อำนาจแบบเหวี่ยงแหแล้ว ยังถือเป็นการข่มขู่คุกคามพยานให้เกิดความหวาดกลัวจนไม่กล้าเปิดเผยความจริงต่างๆ ให้สาธารณชนได้รับรู้หรือไม่"

My question is the relationship between "ว่า" at the end of the first clause and "หรือไม่" at the end of the second and if they constitute a "whether or not" expression.

I am wondering if the combined sentence should be interpreted as:

"[These incidents] have drawn the attention of both domestic andinternational NGOs and human rights groups as to whether or not. . .

. . . [theseare] overly broad uses of power and a form of threat and intimidation of witnesses. [The objective would be] to frighten [the witnesses] so that they will be too terrified to publically communicatethe complete and honest truth."

What do you think? Thanks.

[mikenyork]

David: I think สาธารณชนmeans more than just “publically communicate”. Wouldn’t สาธารณas a root imply more “the public” with a sense of the common weal? Compare สาธารณสุข public health. And I might prefer “being” for “would be” asit makes the charge a little more concrete. I agree with you that ว่า .....หรือไม่ is “whether or not”

Humbly submitted

Mike

[DavidHouston]

David: I think สาธารณชนmeans more than just "publically communicate". Wouldn't สาธารณas a root imply more "the public" with a sense of the common weal? Compare สาธารณสุข public health. And I might prefer "being" for "would be" asit makes the charge a little more concrete. I agree with you that ว่า .....หรือไม่ is "whether or not"

Humbly submitted

Mike

Mike,

Fully agree. I could have written more literally, "to communicate to the public", but I used the adverbial form for brevity. สาธารณชน means "the public (as a whole); the community". This is one of those words which has two (actually three) implied vowels. I bet these are going to disappear from common parlance in the future, just as "สาธารณสุข" is becoming "สาสุข".

[SoftWater]

Could ว่า here be the ว่า of 'blame'?

'They have attacted the criticism of organisations and human rights advocates both at home and abroad, not only for the general way they wield power, but also for intimidating witnesses so much they fear to speak and the public cannot recognise what is true or not'.

Clumsy, I know, and probably deeply wrong, but I felt like sharing the product of half an hour's banging my head on the wall. :-)

Edited July 14, 2010 by SoftWater

[aanon]

Hi David,

It's been a while. Glad to see you're still pushing yourself and us fellow learners with the questions...

I would suggest that 'whether' is perfect but you will need to structure your translation so that the 'whether' covers everything that was between ว่า and หรือไม่ in the original. You'll probably end up with just one sentence...and may need to forego some of the redundancies in the Thai...

With that, I encourage you to have another go at it.

aanon

[DavidHouston]

Hi David,

It's been a while. Glad to see you're still pushing yourself and us fellow learners with the questions...

I would suggest that 'whether' is perfect but you will need to structure your translation so that the 'whether' covers everything that was between ว่า and หรือไม่ in the original. You'll probably end up with just one sentence...and may need to forego some of the redundancies in the Thai...

With that, I encourage you to have another go at it.

aanon

Thanks, Aanon.

Interesting question about "redundancies" in Thai writing, especially newspaper writing. In American English - the only dialect I speak - there has been a tendency toward shorter, more concise sentences, and away from long, complicated sentences. That is, away from Henry James and toward Ernest Hemingway. In academic and legal circles also, movements exist toward a more simplified language.

In Thai I still see newspaper and magazine articles with sentences which seem to go on forever and are printed in multiple lines or paragraphs. By contrast, the writing of the renowned writer and politician ม.ร.ว. คึกฤทธิ์ ปราโมช is generally simple, straight-forward, and precise.

Now, it is true, as Khun Yoot has pointed out to me, that Thai pedants have not imposed a rule on their writers that every sentence must convey a complete thought; for example, in Thai a clause headed by a relative adverb can constitute a complete sentence. (Gosh, how I wish that Thai made greater use of semi-colons! And, yes, Thai does have a semi-colon; it's called a อัฒภาค)

With respect to the subject sentence, I think that all the concepts are valid but, I agree, that separating them in separate sentences in English would make the rendition a lot smoother. I made only two; more would be better.

Thanks.

[DavidHouston]

Hi David,

It's been a while. Glad to see you're still pushing yourself and us fellow learners with the questions...

I would suggest that 'whether' is perfect but you will need to structure your translation so that the 'whether' covers everything that was between ว่า and หรือไม่ in the original. You'll probably end up with just one sentence...and may need to forego some of the redundancies in the Thai...

With that, I encourage you to have another go at it.

aanon

I like Software's rendition, although I think that "the public" is an indirect object of ให้, rather than the subject of the final clause. Nonetheless, his translation carries the meaning well. Here is another suggestion:

"[These incidents] have drawn the attention of both foreign and domestic NGOs and of human rights groups as to whether or not [the government] has extended its powers too broadly. In addition [the government] is being accused of using threats and intimidation to prevent witnesses from speaking publicly."

Thanks.

[aanon]

Hi David,

It's been a while. Glad to see you're still pushing yourself and us fellow learners with the questions...

I would suggest that 'whether' is perfect but you will need to structure your translation so that the 'whether' covers everything that was between ว่า and หรือไม่ in the original. You'll probably end up with just one sentence...and may need to forego some of the redundancies in the Thai...

With that, I encourage you to have another go at it.

aanon

I like Software's rendition, although I think that "the public" is an indirect object of ให้, rather than the subject of the final clause. Nonetheless, his translation carries the meaning well. Here is another suggestion:

"[These incidents] have drawn the attention of both foreign and domestic NGOs and of human rights groups as to whether or not [the government] has extended its powers too broadly. In addition [the government] is being accused of using threats and intimidation to prevent witnesses from speaking publicly."

Thanks.

นอกจากจะเป็น X ยังถือเป็น Y

on top of being X, it's also Y

all of the above needs to be covered by the "whether" in the sentence. there is no new sentence or change from questioning to accusation.

by the way, what in particular is it that is drawing this attention (if it's something we're allowed to talk about on TV)?

aanon

[GarryP]

Okay, here's my take. Do not ask me about Thai grammar as I have no idea, never having studied it. First off, I agree that it is a "whether or not" situation.

I would translate the sentence along the following lines:

"กำลังถูกจับตาจากองค์กรและนักสิทธิมนุษยชนทั้งในประเทศและต่างประเทศว่า นอกจากจะเป็นการใช้อำนาจแบบเหวี่ยงแหแล้ว ยังถือเป็นการข่มขู่คุกคามพยานให้เกิดความหวาดกลัวจนไม่กล้าเปิดเผยความจริงต่างๆ ให้สาธารณชนได้รับรู้หรือไม่"

"is currently being watched by organizations and human rights advocates, both domestic and international, as to whether or not, other than using powers too broadly, it can also be held (considered) as intimidating witnesses to the extent they are too afraid to reveal various facts (truths) to the public"

[aanon]

good job GarryP.

[bhoydy]

Nice thread, nice vocab in context.

Edited July 15, 2010 by bhoydy

[tgeezer]

Okay, here's my take. Do not ask me about Thai grammar as I have no idea, never having studied it. First off, I agree that it is a "whether or not" situation.

I would translate the sentence along the following lines:

"กำลังถูกจับตาจากองค์กรและนักสิทธิมนุษยชนทั้งในประเทศและต่างประเทศว่า นอกจากจะเป็นการใช้อำนาจแบบเหวี่ยงแหแล้ว ยังถือเป็นการข่มขู่คุกคามพยานให้เกิดความหวาดกลัวจนไม่กล้าเปิดเผยความจริงต่างๆ ให้สาธารณชนได้รับรู้หรือไม่"

"is currently being watched by organizations and human rights advocates, both domestic and international, as to whether or not, other than using powers too broadly, it can also be held (considered) as intimidating witnesses to the extent they are too afraid to reveal various facts (truths) to the public"

With all due respect, although Thai is not always grammatical, the basic grammar is difficult to ignore.

ว่า is a verb = 'what is being said' the subject is องค์การ etc. what follows ว่า has to be the 'quote': apart from the situation of the use of power, they still consider the situation to be one of intimidation etc.

The interesting translations to me are:

ใข้อำนาจแบบเหวี่ยงแห 'the use of power in the manner of casting a fishing net' mean? would a Thai think it good or bad?

ให้สาธารณชนได้รับรู้หรือไม่ receive knowledge or not. How is this to be put in English?

I wouldn't think 'whether or not' needs to be applied although ว่า.....หรือไม่ seems to work if we say; is........ or not, literally it means; say..... or not.

I am not saying I am right and realize that there is little appetite for this sort of thing, I post in hope only.

[GarryP]

I never said I was ignoring the grammar. I just said do not ask me about it. I learned Thai grammar the same way as I learned English grammar, i.e. through using the language and having mistakes corrected as I went along. Proficiency comes with experience and use. I do not know what subjunctive clauses are in English but I am sure I write them often enough without getting them wrong.

From my limited grasp of grammar, I would say that ว่า is not being used as a verb but as the conjunction whether. There, now I've done it, tried to explain something about grammar. My ability to explain grammar issues is now exhausted

As to casting the net, whether it is thought of as good or bad comes down to context. Obviously, in the case in point the meaning is negative.

For the other point, it could be "afraid to reveal various facts for the public to acknowledge", but this is rather cumbersome.

[DavidHouston]

I very much appreciate Garry's assistance in our discussions and his keen understanding of Thai vocabulary and syntax. He has been very helpful in restating translations into very good, comprehensible English. The fact that he shies away from discussions of specific grammar points in no way diminishes his expertise nor the quality of his assistance, in my mind.

That having been said, Iwasaki and Ingkaphirom (in "A Reference Grammar of Thai", Cambridge University Press, 2005, page 8) have an excellent introductory discussion on Thai parts of speech which is very relevant to Tgeezer's point:

"Categorizing Thai words into the familiar word classes,or parts-of-speech, is not always easy. First, the word-class classification established in the West may not be completely relevant for non-Western languages. Second, distinguishing words on morphological grounds is impossible in a isolating language like Thai. Finally, Thai words are often very fluid, and many words are still undergoing the process of 'grammaticalization,' a process in which content words such as nouns and verbs become function words like prepositions and auxiliary verbs. This means some words have to be listed in two or more categories."

On page 20 the authors specifically deal with the word "ว่า" and show how it can be both a verb and a "complementizer". The reader must read all the way to Chapter 21 and page 265 to arrive at the authors' compete discussion of "ว่า" as a "complementizer", that is, its function meaning "that" as in "บอกว่า" and "คิดว่า".

(If anyone is still interested in the definition of the word "complementizer", see http://en.wikipedia..../Complementizer )

To summarize, I don't think it is necessary to research the most fundamental uses of a particular Thai word each and every time in order to understand its more advanced functions. Thanks.

Edited July 17, 2010 by DavidHouston

[tgeezer]

<BR><FONT size=2>I very much appreciate Garry's assistance in our discussions and his keen understanding of Thai vocabulary and syntax.  He has been very helpful in restating translations into very good, comprehensible English.  The fact that he shies away from discussions of specific grammar points in no way diminishes his expertise nor the quality of his assistance, in my mind.</FONT><BR><BR>[/quote<BR><BR>I wasn't suggesting any lack of expertise, we all lack exposure to Thai to some degree and;we all have our own vernacular in English and sometimes surprising things emerge which can not be explained when we refer to a dictionary, all languages have this problem except Latin or so we a told.  <BR>  I was merely trying to see if there was another way of putting this avoiding the difficulty which you were having trying to make ว่า mean 'whether'. It comes about because of ได้รับรู้หรือไม่ is tagged on the end doesn't it? ie. ผมไม่รู้ว่าเขาจะไปหรือไม่ or ...กำลังจับตาจากประธานว่า (นอกจากนนี้แล้ว) ยังถือเป็นนี้หรือไม่ is that what it is? <BR>Well I seem to have answered my own question, but if I try to put the thought จับตา into English I can't follow it with 'whether'. I have found my 'Chambers' but still can't find anything suitable. (By the way David, in my vernacular a thesaurus is a dictionary of synonyms )  <BR>I do wonder though, whether ได้รับรู้หรือไม่ could make sense on its own or whether it could not. So, do you think it could mean 'have received the truth or not'.?  <BR><BR>I apologise for interjecting here, I don't really have enough Thai to work it out and 'first principles' only work if everyone knows and uses them, there is no guarantee of this happening in the media in either language.  On the BBC! a 'presenter' said that she <EM>used to be </EM>an <EM>alumni</EM> of that university, so you see even there the meaning of words don't matter, 'you know what I mean' counts for more.

Edited July 18, 2010 by tgeezer

[tgeezer]

Sorry chaps for all that crap I have no idea why my pearls of wisdom should be so currupted.

[GarryP]

Sorry chaps for all that crap I have no idea why my pearls of wisdom should be so currupted.

It happens, it happens. It just must be one of those days.

[DavidHouston]

Tgeezer,

Please try to post your message again, this time without trying to quote my prior posting. Perhaps a new posting will work better. I really want to see your response. Thanks for making the effort to respond.

[SoftWater]

There does seem to be something screwy about the new post editor. I've noticed this several times since the 'upgrade'.

[tgeezer]

I wasn't suggesting any lack of expertise, we all lack exposure to Thai to some degree and;we all have our own vernacular in English and sometimes surprising things emerge which can not be explained when we refer to a dictionary, all languages have this problem except Latin, or so we a told.

I was merely trying to see if there was another way of putting this avoiding the difficulty which you were having trying to make ว่า mean 'whether'. It comes about because of ได้รับรู้หรือไม่ is tagged on the end doesn't it? ie. ผมไม่รู้ว่าเขาจะไปหรือไม่ or ...กำลังจับตาจากประธานว่า (นอกจากนนี่แล้ว) ยังถือเป็นนี่หรือไม่ is that what it is?

Well I seem to have answered my own question, but if I try to put the thought จับตา into English I can't follow it with ''whether'. I have found my 'Chambers' but still can't find anything suitable. (By the way David, in my vernacular a thesaurus is a dictionary of synonyms )

I do wonder though, whether ได้รับรู้หรือไม่ could make sense on its own or whether it could not. So, do you think it could mean 'have got the truth or not'.

I apologise for interjecting here, I don't really have enough vernacular Thai to work it out and 'first principles' only work if everyone knows and uses them, there is no guarantee of this happening in the media in any language.

Edited July 18, 2010 by tgeezer

[tgeezer]

There does seem to be something screwy about the new post editor. I've noticed this several times since the 'upgrade'.

I am glad to hear that, I struggled with the last post; deleted all the rubbish which replaced 'shifts' then it seemed to behave after about six edits.