Bummer At Bumrungrad

[ignis]

Sheryl, as you say,

the increase is considerably worse due to a stronger baht/weaker dollar/pound etc.

However a stronger Baht also reduces the hospital's costs; imported drugs, imported medical equipment and associated supplies which are priced in $ or Euro will be cheaper in Baht terms as the Baht strengthens. Unfortunately hospitals never seem to reduce their prices when this happens although they are quick to increase prices when the Baht falls.

Bear in mind these are Thai hospitals, in Thailand. That they seek to tap into the international market does not mean that they exist solely for it. Even at Bumrungrad, about half the total patient population is Thai.

Also need to bear in mind that foreign currency/baht flunctuations are not the same for all currencies at the same time, and that not all foreign patients are western.

Naturally, prices are set in Thai baht.

Do not 100% follow this........ maybe it is double pricing.,. eg one price for Thai and double for non Thai ?

Like I have an allege to penicillin, so always buy 'Ciproxyl' 500 mg, I always have a strip or 2 of 10 in the house... Hospital sent me home with 1x strip of these 97 baht, from the Hospital I went to my local Pharmacy and bought 2 more strips @ 48 baht each. 100% same blister pack.

As I said I was in a 6 bed ward, all the other were Thai spoke to them all, one had private insurance the others did not, the did nots were paying 1,000 baht for bed per 24 hours, I paid 2,750 baht per 24 hours for the bed. I am not saying that is expensive just the difference between Thai and non Thai.. Of course if I had insurance then I would have been put into a single bed room with no one to talk to @ 5,500 baht.

[Sheryl]

Like I have an allege to penicillin, so always buy 'Ciproxyl' 500 mg, I always have a strip or 2 of 10 in the house... Hospital sent me home with 1x strip of these 97 baht, from the Hospital I went to my local Pharmacy and bought 2 more strips @ 48 baht each. 100% same blister pack.

As I said I was in a 6 bed ward, all the other were Thai spoke to them all, one had private insurance the others did not, the did nots were paying 1,000 baht for bed per 24 hours, I paid 2,750 baht per 24 hours for the bed. I am not saying that is expensive just the difference between Thai and non Thai.. Of course if I had insurance then I would have been put into a single bed room with no one to talk to @ 5,500 baht.

There is always a significant price mark-up at the pharmacies of private hospitals. Nothing to do with dual pricing Thai/farang, difference is hospital pharmacy vs outside pharmacy. Unless one is requiring a controlled substance, in which case can only get at a hospital pharmacy, it is always a waste of money to buy at a hospital pharmacy. Some hospitals will try to insist ion it but by law you have the right to (1) know exactly what the doctor presrcibed and (2) choose where to buy it.

Re your hospital stay, I don't think it was at Bumrungrad or for that matter any hospital I am familiar with if they had a 6 bedded ward. Sounds like maybe a smallish private hospital? These in my experience tend to be pretty "ad hoc" about pricing....

[camerata]

That said, I do agree that the procedure charges (which unlike consultation fees, are set by the hospital) at both Bumrungrad and the other major hospitals have gone up to ridiculous levels. You can now get an MRI done for less in New York than you can at many hospitals in Bangkok.

There have been newspaper articles overseas that say the same thing. For example, the Daily Telegraph:

---

Hospital fees are properly structured (unlike in, say, China) and patients should not feel that they are prey to unscrupulous charging. An MRI scan should come in at around £200 – about a third of the UK price. Inpatients are asked to pay in advance.

Nursing care is inexpensive, both in terms of professional attention and room hire.

Outpatient fees are not usually paid in advance. Consultants' fees can be as low as approximately £20 per appointment. Unusually, though, there is normally an additional £4 charge for use of facilities.

According to Bupa International, prices vary widely between hospitals as well as between private and state sectors.

Dr Sneh Khemka, the insurer's medical director, said: "Much depends on the hospital. For local nationals using public hospitals, procedures cost roughly a third of what they do in the UK. For expatriates, who use the best private hospitals, procedures cost roughly double that in the UK. For example, an arthroscopy in the UK would cost US$2,500, (£1,690) and in Thailand US$5,000."

Despite increasing prosperity, fees in the best hospitals are beyond the reach of most Thais.

---

[camerata]

It seems that at least once a year we have a major topic about whether Bumrungrad is good or not. My overall impression is still good after at least 12 years with them. Last year I had an MRI on my shoulder (around 12000 baht I think). It turned out there was something indistinct on the scan, unrelated to the shoulder pain so they called me back for another MRI using an intravenous dye. I only had to pay the cost of the dye.

Re medicines: the markup is very high at hospitals, but at least you know you are getting the real thing. As a resident here, you can get about 15% discount on medicines and other things with the member cards these hospitals offer, and sometimes with credit card promotions. The doctors I know at Bumrungrad and Samitivej are happy enough to let you buy your own medicines (if available over the counter) but if the results aren't as expected, they'll probably suggest you get them from the hospital anyway. That's the problem - the doctors don't trust drugs bought on the open market.

Re emails: I only once tried emailing Samitivej to ask for a report they should have sent me, but didn't, and they sent me the report I already had. And then didn't bother replying at all to my follow-up mail. I went and picked up the report in person. I certainly wouldn't make an appointment by email when it is so easy over the phone.

Up until a few years ago I didn't have to pay the full amount as a "deposit" in advance at Bumrungrad's Laser Clinic, but now I do. I suppose this is because some patients were refusing to pay when the results of cosmetic surgery weren't what they wanted, but you'd think they could make an exception for a regular patient of over a decade, especially when they don't demand a deposit for an MRI scan.

It's true Bumrungrad is pretty busy and even the wait at the cashier can take a long time now. A related problem is there simply aren't enough Arabic translators available and you can get stuck behind Africans and Arabs who speak almost no English, don't understand what's going on and won't follow instructions.

As international hospitals seeking medical tourists, both Bumrungrad and Samitivej need to get rid of the 170 baht "service charge" for foreigners on outpatient visits.

[ignis]

Re your hospital stay, I don't think it was at Bumrungrad or for that matter any hospital I am familiar with if they had a 6 bedded ward. Sounds like maybe a smallish private hospital? These in my experience tend to be pretty "ad hoc" about pricing....

No as I said in a early post Nothing to do with 'Bumrungrad' it is the big Hospital at Bang Yai

[wpcoe]

Hrrmmppff. Why so unkind? Show some compassion and kindness instead of complaining!

Did you mean that as sarcasm? I fully agree that Jimbo's friend (see original post, I didn't want to quote such a lengthy post again), has a justiable grievance against Bumrungrad. Further, I don't see undue complaining.

[Puccini]

...I asked my doctor if he could write me prescriptions for an outside pharmacy so the price of my medications would be 70 % less expensive but he told me he would not do it...

This is a very funny thing about doctors working in Thai hospitals: not a single one seems to have a prescription pad. At the beginning, it made me doubt if they were real doctors.

[Jaz744]

Without going into my experiences of having unneeded drugs being prescribed, unnecessary tests, and hospital stays. Take the bull by the horns and if you have a valid complaint of being mistreated by a hospital, write a letter to the JCI. It's very important to hospitals to have this accreditation and perhaps things will start to change for the better if they realize people are doing something other than complain. Here's what you need to be pro active. Thanks for your help! ( even if the hospital doesn't have current accreditation, it will go into their record. )

Report a complaint about a health care organization

Submission of Complaints

Joint Commission International (JCI) accreditation will receive complaints about any JCI accredited organization. Complaints can be sent by mail, fax or e-mail. The issues should be summarized in one to two pages and include the name, street address, city, and country of the health care organization. When possible, complaints should be submitted in English.

Complaints submitted to JCI may contain the name and contact information of the individual submitting the complaint or may be submitted anonymously.

Complaints that contain contact information will permit JCI to provide information to the submitter about any actions taken or to request additional necessary information.

The name and contact information of the individual or individuals submitting the complaint will be kept confidential and not disclosed to any other party without the express permission of the submitter, unless otherwise required by law. However, it may be necessary to share the complaint with the subject organization in the course of JCI’s review.

JCI will review and evaluate all complaints, as appropriate, based on the information JCI receives. All individuals communicating with JCI, however, should be aware that the organization may believe that they can determine the identity of the source of the complaint from the nature of JCI’s request for information.

JCI requires that accredited organizations must notify their employees, visitors and patients that, when complaints are not resolved to their satisfaction, they may choose to submit their complaints to JCI.

JCI requires that accredited organizations must notify their employees, visitors and patients that no retaliatory actions will be taken against individuals who submit complaints to JCI.

Complaints may be submitted to:

Email: [email protected]

Mail:

Quality and Safety Monitoring

Joint Commission International Accreditation

1515 W. 22nd Street, Suite 1300W

Oak Brook, IL 60523 USA

Scope of Complaint Evaluation

Complaint information about JCI accredited organizations is used to strengthen the oversight activities of JCI and improve the quality of care and safety of patients in accredited facilities. JCI will address all complaints that relate to issues within the scope of the international standards to determine whether they raise any credible suggestion of failure to comply with standards. These include issues such as patient rights, care of patients, safety, infection control, medication use and security.

JCI will not address individual billing issues and payment disputes, as well as issues for which JCI has no jurisdiction such as labor relations, and the individual clinical management of a patient. JCI is not an appropriate forum for the resolution of concerns about the clinical management of an individual patient. JCI does not review complaints of any kind in unaccredited organizations.

JCI Response to a Complaint

JCI encourages individuals to first bring the complaint to the attention of the health care organization's leaders. If this does not lead to resolution, the complaint should be brought to JCI for review. JCI’s response to a complaint begins with a review of past complaints about the organization, if any, and the organization's accreditation survey report. Depending on the nature of the complaint, JCI will take one or more of the following actions:

· Where serious concerns have been raised about patient safety or standards compliance, JCI will conduct an on-site evaluation of the organization.

· JCI may ask the health care organization to provide a written response to the complaint.

· JCI may incorporate the complaint into the quality monitoring database that is used to continuously track the performance of accredited health care organizations over time.

· JCI may review the complaint at the time of the health care organization's next scheduled accreditation survey if it is scheduled in the near future.

Release of Complaint Information

Upon request, JCI provides the number of complaints an organization has had that met the criteria for review. After JCI completes its review, the following information, as appropriate, will be provided to the complainant:

· Any determination that the complaint is not related to JCI standards

· If the complaint is related to standards, the course of action (i.e., a request for a written response or on-site evaluation) that was taken regarding the complaint, including the specific standards that were evaluated, any standards for which recommendations for improvement were issued as a result of the review and, when applicable, any change in the organization’s accreditation status.

The JCI field will receive regular publication of the Quality and Safety Monitoring Process through the annual Executive Briefings conference and the quarterly newsletter, JCI Insight.

Review Criteria

JCI will use established objective criteria to guide its disposition and analysis of complaints and other information received regarding JCI accredited health care organizations. The review criteria encompass initial screening criteria, and three levels of priorities. JCI staff assign initial priorities at the complaint triage stage. Prioritization may be revised after further analysis, receipt of additional information, and/or consultation with other staff. The complaint review process and assignment of priority evaluates the established policies and procedures of the organization, laws and regulations of the country to the extent JCI is aware of such laws, and potential cultural influences.

Screening Criteria

· The organization is currently accredited by JCI.

· The complaint/incident information is relevant to JCI standards.

· The information relates to the organization’s performance within the past three years.

· The information provided is sufficiently clear to determine its specific pertinence to the organization, without doubt.

[NikhilBkk]

Stop going to Bumrungrad, BNH, Samitivej, etc....actually the Dusit Medical Grp that owns BNH, Samtivej, Bangkok Gen, etc is much worst. According to a friend who works there, its now the grp's policy to make money and thats all. Doctors will get commisiions for prescribing tests, more medicine and also surgeries, etc. Also.....its a common procedure to charge froreigners more than locals. Go to Singapore, healthcare is excellent and cheap there. F......this country that is simply xenophobic.

[Sheryl]

Thanks Jaz for this info, given that Thai hospitals do not appear to have their own ombudsmen or viable complaint channels, this is good to know.

JCI can only investigate complaints relating to organizations which belong to them. Per their website, in Thailand these are:

Bangkok Hospital Medical Center

First Accredited: 30 June 2007

Re-accredited: 17 July 2010

Bangkok Hospital Pattaya

First Accredited: 19 September 2009

Bangkok Hospital Phuket

First Accredited: 23 May 2009

BNH Hospital

First Accredited: 29 May 2009

Bumrungrad International

First Accredited: 2 February 2002

Re-Accredited: 8 April 2005

Re-Accredited: 31 July 2008

Chiangmai Ram Hospital

First Certified: 7 November 2009

Praram 9 Hospital

First Accredited: 20 November 2010

Ramkhamhaeng Hospital

First Accredited: 21 August 2010

Samitivej Srinakarin Hospital

First Accredited: 11 August 2007

Re-accredited: 13 August 2010

Samitivej Sriracha Hospital

First Accredited: 8 November 2008

Samitivej Sukhumvit Hospital

First Accredited: 27 January 2007

Re-accredited: 13 February 2010

Synphaet Hospital

Bangkok, Thailand

First Accredited: 21 May 2010

Vejthani Hospital

First Accredited: 26 March 2010

http://www.jointcommissioninternational.org/jci-accredited-organizations/#Thailand

[Forethat]

Hrrmmppff. Why so unkind? Show some compassion and kindness instead of complaining!

Did you mean that as sarcasm? I fully agree that Jimbo's friend (see original post, I didn't want to quote such a lengthy post again), has a justiable grievance against Bumrungrad. Further, I don't see undue complaining.

Indeed it was sarcasm. Well spotted - in this case Jimbo spent considerable amount of time passing judgement on those who opted NOT to share his idea that convicted drug offenders should be pardoned. He went on to inform people that instead of comdemning those who dedicated their life to pester ours with criminal acts (in this case by trafficing drugs), we should show them some mercy and compassion, visit them to make them feel loved, "brighten their day".

Well if the roles were reversed, I would hope that someone would come and visit me and brighten my day. Wouldn't you? Show some mercy and compassion guys.

And now he's on the hunt for people who deicated their lifes to help people with medical care? Cute....

[Jaz744]

Thanks Jaz for this info, given that Thai hospitals do not appear to have their own ombudsmen or viable complaint channels, this is good to know.

JCI can only investigate complaints relating to organizations which belong to them. Per their website, in Thailand these are:

Bangkok Hospital Medical Center

First Accredited: 30 June 2007

Re-accredited: 17 July 2010

Bangkok Hospital Pattaya

First Accredited: 19 September 2009

Bangkok Hospital Phuket

First Accredited: 23 May 2009

BNH Hospital

First Accredited: 29 May 2009

Bumrungrad International

First Accredited: 2 February 2002

Re-Accredited: 8 April 2005

Re-Accredited: 31 July 2008

Chiangmai Ram Hospital

First Certified: 7 November 2009

Praram 9 Hospital

First Accredited: 20 November 2010

Ramkhamhaeng Hospital

First Accredited: 21 August 2010

Samitivej Srinakarin Hospital

First Accredited: 11 August 2007

Re-accredited: 13 August 2010

Samitivej Sriracha Hospital

First Accredited: 8 November 2008

Samitivej Sukhumvit Hospital

First Accredited: 27 January 2007

Re-accredited: 13 February 2010

Synphaet Hospital

Bangkok, Thailand

First Accredited: 21 May 2010

Vejthani Hospital

First Accredited: 26 March 2010

http://www.jointcomm...tions/#Thailand

Actually, when I filed my first complaint about Bangkok Hospital Pattaya they were not a member. When I talked to JCI, they said that even if a hospital was not a member, they would keep it on file and use it when considering them in the future. I'm not sure if it will do much good but I do know for a fact that the hospitals treat this very seriously and I think if they knew the public was aware of this, it might help to start changing them, it's hard to say. I would just think that if they had a few hundred complaints and were presented, the gig might be up and they'll stop. The last time I went to BHP, my daughter had been admitted for a bee sting and they ended up charging our insurance over 30K baht for completely unnecessary procedures. After I talked to them and they realized that I was in the "business" they were nice enough to give me a 10% discount........ No apology except the Doctor did say that they didn't realize her father was a doctor. Ha, maybe we all need to strap a stethoscope around our necks just to get a little respect.

[jimrothstein]

I'm looking for suggestions on Thai hospitals/expectations, not sure if best to post ....

For the past 6+ weeks I have been in Bangkok for generally good - but not perfect - out-patient treatments at Bumrungrad (BRR) for a 'stubborn' kidney stone lodged mid-ureter. The stone was found at BRR by CT scan. (I have no pain.)

My urologist now wants to use more invasive procedure which involve either 1-night or 5-night in the hospital, depending on exact procedure, which will be determined while I am under anesthesia. Although there is nothing medically very unusual about my case, I do need to make a decision and proceed. Cost is a concern. Waiting it out is not option. I also have a second stone that the doctor says 'we deal with later.'

[/b]expected to stay one week (now 6+) - 2nd visa expiring, hotel bills, blah, blah]

Some individuals at BRR have gone out of their way to help, but the hospital is NOT set up for price-sensitive patients caught in a bind. BRR's incomplete, ala carte estimate for next step (in case of 5-night stay) exceeds the Total Dr/hospital bill to date: 237,000 THB (including a colonoscopy). It has also been irritating to get basic information about basic clinical experiences/best practices (and costs) to make a truly informed decision. (Google is not always the best way!)

My question is whether I can receive similar care elsewhere in Bangkok or in Thailand, but for significantly lower cost.

Or is there a way to approach BRR (whom?).

Or, bite the bullet, just 'trust' the doctor, pay whatever they want ... and just get it over with?

Ideally, I like a bit more comprehensive approach (not ala carte) to my kidney stone issues AND associated living costs & issues for the minimum 3 weeks or more I must remain. (Maybe BKK is not the best place.)

Thanks for any thoughts.

Jim

[Puccini]

...For the past 6+ weeks I have been in Bangkok for generally good - but not perfect - out-patient treatments at Bumrungrad (BRR) for a 'stubborn' kidney stone lodged mid-ureter. The stone was found at BRR by CT scan. (I have no pain.)

My urologist now wants to use more invasive procedure which involve either 1-night or 5-night in the hospital...Cost is a concern. Waiting it out is not option. I also have a second stone that the doctor says 'we deal with later.'...

BRR's incomplete, ala carte estimate for next step (in case of 5-night stay) exceeds the Total Dr/hospital bill to date: 237,000 THB (including a colonoscopy)...

Would you be covered for this by medical insurance in your home country? If so, since you have no pain, why don't you cut your vacation short and go home for treatment? One time, at home in Italy, I had severe colics because of a kidney stone and because I was booked for a holiday in the USA my urologist fixed me up with a ureteral stent (pig-tail) to stop the colics and let me travel. Another time, an x-ray showed an asymptomatic kidney stone and he let me travel, suggesting that I take the x-ray along in case I should get colics and need treatment whilst abroad.

Three years ago I had colics whilst in Bangkok and got a kidney stone removed at the Saint Louis Hospital with an extracorporeal shock wave lithotripsy (ESWL) for THB 50,000. In and out within 24 hours.

[jimrothstein]

Three years ago I had colics whilst in Bangkok and got a kidney stone removed at the Saint Louis Hospital with an extracorporeal shock wave lithotripsy (ESWL) for THB 50,000. In and out within 24 hours.

Thanks for the thoughts. I have had 11 ESWL treatments here in Bangkok; stone smaller, but still there and treatment should not be delayed.

Doctor wants to proceed to (minimally) invasive procedures, with possible substantial price tag (I am self-pay; returning to US not an option for me). I am slowly finding my way around BKK, looking for other options.

(Expensive 1 week ' vacation'!)

[Puccini]

...I have had 11 ESWL treatments here in Bangkok; stone smaller, but still there...

This means that either your stone is in the wrong position or the wrong size for ESWL or the technician operating the equipment was inept.

At Saint Louis, they didn't fragment my stone completely the first time and I got colics again a few days later. The urologist said that for the repeat ESWL the fee would only be half but in the end nothing was charged, even without my haggling about it.

[Bouffant]

Hi- I started this thread many months ago after an appalling experience at Bumrungrad, a hospital about which I had formerly been a big fan.

Alas, Bumrungrad can no longer be viewed (if it ever could be, but I say it could be to some degree and can't be at all anymore) as a great reliableplace where you just walk in and get all your medical care taken care of secure in the knowlegde that you are getting excellent medical care.

But for those of you who say "do your homework", may I say that's all well and good for those of you who live in Bangkok and have done so for a long time and can easily yo use your contacts to get good referrals. There are those of us who dont have a cell phone full of contacts in Thailand to call, and sometimes things happen somewhat suddenly and you need advice quickly.

On the internet you are confronted with sponsored sites run by doctors and clinics masquerading as having valid, even-handed customer feedback.

Hree in ThaiVisa, there are so many threads that information is very patchy, while I REALLY appreciate the fact that this site is here and the many people who contribute for the sake of contributing without an axe to grind. (Some DO have axes to grind and are "on the job" so keep your eye out for them, newcomers.)

But here is what I dont understand. This site: MyThiaDoctors.com us supported only by random Google ads and no paid sponsors. Why dont more people participate there by adding their doctor rviews, bth positive and negative? This is s potentially such an amazing resource. I can; t promise you that I do contribute my reviews. But when I want t a review there are so few there. A site like that is so empowering to consumers.

Here on this site, if you need advice and help finding a doctor, you have to hope some experienced person will be kind enough to donate their time with your unique question- that's a lot of work- try to search for things and it's going to be patchy. (But at leass a good portion of it is genuine!) I'm not knocking this site- I'm SO glad it's here. But what I fodont get its why people will not take the time to just submit their reviews to MyThaiDoctors.com? It only takes a few mintes.

It's a huge amount of work for a medical tourist to try to troll through a hospital's doctor files, and sure you can see where they were educated but you can't see what their patients thought of them.

When I was in Bangkok last summer with my breast cancer scare, it was TERRIFYING when I felt like I was on my own where I didn't speak the language and I unexpectedly had to find good (excellent!) doctors to consult. I didn't have months to stay in a hotel and research it. It ended up costing me so much more because my experience at Bumrungrad made me so wary and I had to staty over sereval weeks to try to find doctors and get opinions. It was nightmarishly expensive.

Most sites that pretend to be informational about Thai medical care are sponsored by hospitals clinics and doctors who are slanting the information to get business. MyThaiDoctors is the only site that was set up solely to help people make an informed decision.

I want to say THANK YOU to the person who set up this site, and get off your lazy butts to the people who need good advice, search for it on the internet, want other people to answer their questions about doctors and hospitals and then will not take the time to write a review here- good or bad- about the doctors they visit.

If you've lived in Bangkok a long time, you probably have a network of people from whom to get your recommendations. The rest of us have almost no time for doctor shopping when we come as medical tourists and need honest reviews desperately.

Readers- won't you PLEASE do your part and contribute your doctor reviews here? They will be there when you need them and others will be able to find them when they need them. I contribute my reviews, and I need to be able to find information here!

And by the way, freedom of speech is not an assumed right in Asia the way it is in the west; don't assume it is. The person who set up this site took a certain amount of risk. Support them by contributing your reviews to this well-thought out, well-organized site that was a LOT OF WORK to create and a gift to all of us!

THIS IS A FANTASTIC SITE WHERE YOU CAN FIND UNBIASED THAI DOCTOR REVIEWS AND THE BEST THAI DOCTORS if ****YOU*** contribute!!

Please pitch in! Help us all!

Thanks for the soapbox-

"Bouffant" ; )

[Sheryl]

There is not, never has been, never will be, a hospital you can just walk into and assume you'll see the best doctor(s) for your particular complaint without having to do any homework on your own. And the "homework" in question does not in any way require you to be in country, it can all be done online.

There may be hospitals without any first-rate doctors, but there are no hospitals wherein all the doctors are first-rate. And the administrative staff who man the information desks etc have neither the training nor the incentive to point you in the best direction.

The problem with patient feedback on an internet forum is that (1) it is easy enough for a doctor or his staff to plant fake rave reviews (and I have seen what appears to be that on the site you mention) and (2) aside from that, the other type of thing it tends to attract are people with a grievance, whose posts will obviously be biased and one-sided. There isn't a doctor in the world who has not, at one time or another, had a patient who was unhappy for one reason or another which they blamed the doctor for, although there may not in fact have been anything to fault in the care given. It is impossible to determine the rights and wrongs of complaints when presented in a heated one-sided manner.

Personally I find it best to rely on qualifications, experience, and (where applicable) publications. All of which can be ascertained online, no need to be incountry.

While of course every hospital's website is set up to present them in a positive light and attract business, I have always found the information in the doctor's biodatas on Bumrungrad's site to be accurate. Haven't found any inaccuracies on the sites of other hospitals either although outside of the "biggies" (Bumrungrad/BNH/Samitivej/Bangkok Hospital) in Bangkok, many hospital websites give insufficient information as to doctor's qualifications. Not inaccurate, just incomplete.

[4.real]

RE over supply of medicines...

I believe it is standard practice for the pharmacists to get 'commission' for each batch of pills/medicines they buy...

And ,of course, not only does oversubscribing raise the chance of more commission but there is always the 'sell by date'....

I well remember being given so many pills for a graze on my arm [motorcycle] that I threw the lot away after the mass dosage prescribed resulted in my throwing the lot up on first taking the 'dose'.

I had similar experiences over the years in Bangkok Hospital where I went for 15 years;

in the end the raise in prices and over-supply of medications and services was excessive; I asked my doctor if he could write me prescriptions for an outside pharmacy so the price of my medications would be 70 % less expensive but he told me he would not do it, asking me if I wanted the in-house prescription or if I wanted to go elsewhere. I took the hint. I think the big hospitals in Bangkok are positioning themselves to more lucrative markets than only the residing expat community (wealthier patients from countries close to Thailand, from the Middle East).

BNH seems to not have gone this route for the moment, but it is also raised it prices more quickly the last few years.

I think there is value in smaller hospitals which offer excellent care but don't label themselves as 'international', e.g. Saint-Louis on Sathorn .

[Bouffant]

RE over supply of medicines...

I believe it is standard practice for the pharmacists to get 'commission' for each batch of pills/medicines they buy...

And ,of course, not only does oversubscribing raise the chance of more commission but there is always the 'sell by date'....

I well remember being given so many pills for a graze on my arm [motorcycle] that I threw the lot away after the mass dosage prescribed resulted in my throwing the lot up on first taking the 'dose'.

I had similar experiences over the years in Bangkok Hospital where I went for 15 years;

in the end the raise in prices and over-supply of medications and services was excessive; I asked my doctor if he could write me prescriptions for an outside pharmacy so the price of my medications would be 70 % less expensive but he told me he would not do it, asking me if I wanted the in-house prescription or if I wanted to go elsewhere. I took the hint. I think the big hospitals in Bangkok are positioning themselves to more lucrative markets than only the residing expat community (wealthier patients from countries close to Thailand, from the Middle East).

BNH seems to not have gone this route for the moment, but it is also raised it prices more quickly the last few years.

I think there is value in smaller hospitals which offer excellent care but don't label themselves as 'international', e.g. Saint-Louis on Sathorn .

[Bouffant]

I I'm sorry to hear, Cheryl, that you seem to be philosophically against the credibility of all consumer review sites. To me they are possibly the single most empowering thing the internet has given us as consumers.

In Asia where they have not caught on much yet, - you can find sites with only one or two reviews that are "puff pieces" by the staff or friends of the doctor. Personally I consider myself savvy enough to spot those. And sadly we don't have a medical site yet with the critical mass for them to be of much use *yet*. I think MyThaiDoctor.com really has that potential, because it is unsponsored and not a 'front" for some medical business.

But if you take a site like "Yelp.com" and the city where it is most popular, San Francisco, people are adding daily to their ratings about products and services of all kinds. When you have a hundred reviews, they become quite credible. They have so any reviews that you can even tell if the food in a retardant was good a year ago bit has declined in the last month! A site like that also rates the reviewers and shuffles the reviews or the most credible reviewers to the top and weights them more. If the reviewer only has a couple of reviews, their credibility goes down. Yelp has LOADS of good reviews- it’s as good a resource for finding good places as it is for finding places to avoid. AsiaRooms is like that too!

You are sure right- the sure is no substitute for checking a doctor's credentials and you can't do that on a consumer review site and fortunately it is easier and easier to do online! But I myself had a horrible experience at Bumrungrad by a doctor with "good credentials" -he just had a horrible bedside manner and a slipshod and inaccurate approach to giving estimates, which in turn the hospital did not honor. A doc with a good education and many years experience can still be someone you so wish in retrospect that you’d been warned about or can feel better about seeing having read patient feedback that you- using the power of personal evaluation and critical thinking- deem credible.

True also, Cheryl- you are so right! No hospital is a panacea or a guarantee of good medical care. I wish there had been more consumer reviews and a site I'd known about earlier and before my bad experience with Bumrungrad that I could have easily consulted before my bad experience there, back in the days when i naively thought it WAS a panacea for excellent medical care. I could have been so much better prepared and saved myself confusion, panic, delay and a lot of money! Instead I had to learn the hard way.

Look at all the people who still show up from the Middle East thinking all they have to do is walk thru the doors of Bumrungrad to be assured of good medical care! If Bumrungrad knew there were more GOOD consumer feedback sites, it would help so many people make informed decisions and would also force Bumrungrad and all medical providers in Thailand to better self-regulate as we wait for better government regulations and redress. I do believe their doctor-monitoring would go up in quality very quickly if there were a popular, credible and well-used consumer review site. Personally I’d like to help myself avoid the need for redress by having access to good consumer feedback sites. I’m such a big fan of them and consider it my civic duty to contribute both my positive and negative experiences.

[Bouffant]

whoops "food in a retardant" was supposed to be "food in a restart"

[chiang mai]

Interesting to read through this thread, I've only just spotted it - my experiences are not dissimilar to the OP's where I was forced to change my views on the degree of professionalism offered by Bumrungrad, this despite having been a "loyal" patient for many years. The solution for me was to discover National University Hospital in Singapore which has proved to be a godsend, less expensive and a far more professional medical experience. If the OP lives in Indonesia I suggest NUH might be a viable alternative.

[Sheryl]

Yes, if traveling from Indonesia I would certainly recommend Singapore over Thailand, hands down.

[zaza]

I tried searching for an experienced medical doctor in reading medical screening tests ,at Bumrungrad hospital but could not .

I need an excellent doctor who can read, and find the precise diagnose , and not try to "expect' or "guess" as many whom I've consulted.

Can you kindly recommend a certain doctor for a comprehensive medical check up at Bumrungrad?

[chiang mai]

And therein lies the rub! There's lots of hospitals here selling tests, but as Sheryl has sought to educate us over time, trying to find someone here to interpret test results with some degree of accuracy is a whole different story.

I have to admit that I used to examine the CV's of doctors at the private hospitals very closely before I booked an appointment with one of them, my rational was that if the doctor had a good degree from say Mahidol or similar and had overseas residency training in the US or similar, chances are that there's a doctor who is more capable than average. I've subsequently come to believe that there is very little authentication of the information put into these CV's and since all these doctors work at the private hospitals on a self employed basis anyway and the private health care system is largely unregulated, the entire proposition is very high risk and little more than an approved money making machine.

[Bouffant]

I tried searching for an experienced medical doctor in reading medical screening tests ,at Bumrungrad hospital but could not .

I need an excellent doctor who can read, and find the precise diagnose , and not try to "expect' or "guess" as many whom I've consulted.

Can you kindly recommend a certain doctor for a comprehensive medical check up at Bumrungrad?

Again, here is a situation where you, a stranger, have to go on a forum and hope that one kind soul will recommend a good doctor to you when you need one- and heaven only knows how soon you need this doctor, whether you are in Thailand temporarily from out of the country, etc.

There is a consumer rating site called MyThaiDoctors (not run by a clinic or someone with an ax to grind) where you can read consumer reviews of doctors, but people don't use it much. It could be so helpful if only a critical mass of people would share both their positive and negative experiences there, I suggest you try that. SOME doctors have been reviewed- I know I do my reviews. Then I really really hope you will think of the next person in your position who needs opinions and that you will review any doctors you see in Thailand there.

I know Bumrungrad has some medical checkup programs where they put you through lots of tests. I would think these would be general and then if there was something specific found you'd see a specialist for that issue, not just "see a doctor who would interpret all the results". I also think doctors tend to be noncommittal, even in the U.S.

While I agree that the CVs provided for Bumrungrad's doctors may not be authenticated, it still helps me to run down and pay an astronomical price to use the internet on the ground floor at Bumrungrad and look up the doctors' listings before booking with them. You should also google them at the same time which can be revealing. One guy I was considering seeing for a breast biopsy I also googled and saw that he worked at a cancer hospital. A lot of the docs at Bumrungrad are consultants who work elsewhere that Bumrungrad calls in as needed. As it turned out this guy REALLY knew his stuff and I was super happy with him at a critical time when I needed someone in whom I felt very confident.

I'm very grateful to know about this hospital in Singapore! And the general opinions about the Singapore hospitals in comparison!

When I had my breast cancer scare, I called a hospital in Singapore to also consider, but Bumrungrad had under-quoted me on the price so I was afraid the Singapore hospital was going to be the same quality but more expensive, so I decided not to go there.. Then when I got to Bumrungrad they said they'd made a mistake on the price, raised the price a lot (above what the Singapore hospital had quoted me!) and refused to honor the price they had given me *in writing*. This severely undermined my confidence at a time when I felt very vulnerable and scared- I thought maybe it was a "rubber pricing" type deal so my trust just went down to zero since that seemed so scammy to me. I ended up staying in Bangkok a lot longer as a result and it cost me a lot more because I then felt I had to shop around and talk to lots of different doctors.

So in short, the medical care is all over the map at Bumrungrad, and can be good but is not necessarily good by any means. They see WAY, WAY too many patients to control quality the way we'd hope and wish, in my opinion. I wish you luck. And please help others- share your doctor reviews!

[pjbradley]

So in short, the medical care is all over the map at Bumrungrad, and can be good but is not necessarily good by any means. They see WAY, WAY too many patients to control quality the way we'd hope and wish, in my opinion. I wish you luck. And please help others- share your doctor reviews!

Thank you for mentioning MyThaiDoctors. I had no idea it existed (perhaps they need help promoting it, or I'm just dense, or both), but as you point out, it's a nice site. With your prompting, I just signed up and posted three doctor reviews (currently pending publication) as I've had the misfortune of needing some in-depth medical care recently. (My reviews are all highly positive; I've been lucky in that regard lately.)

Anyway, you're right about the value of consumer postings (TripAdvisor, anyone?): while one post by itself may not say much, as an aggregate they can provide clues (or at least what to look out for if you decide to avail yourself of the product/service/service provider in question) to help you made important decisions, medical and otherwise.