New Spousal Visa Rules In The Uk And Germany

[thaigold]

Now let me see if I've got this right. If a British man marries a Thai national after September 2010 (Bangkok Post July 24^th), then she must show a command of the English language. In the absence of this language ability, no visa will be issued. In other words, a British citizen who marries a Thai national – his wife is denied entry to Britain until she can pass an English fluency test. Unbelievable!

England is under siege by thousands of North Africans and East Asian hoards who freely emigrate to Britain with no language skills, and absolutely no desire to assimilate. Yet Britain, due to its skewed cultural norms allows this conquest by emigration, while concurrently denying a native born Englishman his Common Law right of a wife of his choosing – in his own home.

The British Embassy owes all of its expatriate residents in the Kingdom, including the Royal Thai Department of Foreign Affairs a direct and unequivocal apology for this racist rant, and the offensive directive as proposed. This diplomatic faux pas needs a prompt correction. How these racist remarks escaped the British Embassy employees charged with the vetting of such a blunder is beyond belief.

In fact, if a clarification is not forthcoming, the British Ambassador needs to hit the podium and explain…post haste

[7by7]

The new language requirement, when it is introduced, will apply to anyone applying as the husband, wife, civil partner, unmarried partner, same-sex partner, fiance(e) or prospective civil partner of a UK citizen or a person settled in the UK. Not just from Thailand, but also the North African and East Asian hordes (that exist only in your imagination) and everywhere outside the EU.

This requirement was set up by the last Labour government, the new coalition have simply brought forward the implementation date.

It is not a racist rant, it can't be racist as it applies to all, regardless of their race; except EU nationals and their partners, and that's only because various EU treaties mean that it is not possible to do so. One may not agree with the new requirement, but it is not racist and no apology is necessary.

The test itself will be relatively easy; spoken English at approximately the standard of a native born 7 year old.

Full details have yet to be announced by the government; but for more information see Migrants marrying UK citizens must now learn English.

The article you mention deals mainly with the introduction of a similar requirement by the German government; and all the responses from Thais in that article are positive as they feel having some knowledge of the language will benefit them in their new home.

So, what is your point?

[Pria]

Does "I love you long time" count as a command of the English language.

Guess the English government want citizens who can say more than "short time sucky sucky". Makes sense, helps speed up time at the welfare counter.

[spider0064]

I can understand the point being made, if from the EU you can come to the UK join your family or friends and not be able to communicate verbally, i know this as many contractors that my company use have people that stare blankly at you if you talk with them.

As for me it is confusing as my girl friend will join me in the UK for the third time on a VV and we will have to try to understand what is required if as planned we do get married next year and how any changes will effect the application.

Although my girlfriend can speak and communicate in english she believes that her english is not very good,may be a confidence thing.

Still we will just have to wait and see what these new rules bring regarding how and where this command of the language will be tested, another cost i believe coming our way !!!!!!!!!!!!!

spider.

[jackinbkk]

This is one reason why I will tell my girlfriend to just seek asylum.

If you can say you want it your here (UK) for a good number of years from what I see on tele

[lee70]

Thai Gold has a point,but I can see both ends of the stick.

Of the EU people living over mainly the youngsters speak English.A lot of the eastern Europeam people settle has families.The younger members of the family tend to speak English well but the parents/grandparents struggle or cannot speak English.

My wife also has a Thai friend who lives in the same town who cannot speak English.She has two kids and from the sounds of it went through hel_l to get the right to live here.When I ask my wife why she cannot speak English she told me that she cannot read or write Thai either.Her and her(English) husband communicate in Thai .Make of it what you will I cant say any more because my wifes going to give me a kick!!!but I think it would be easier for her if she learnt a little bit of English...

It's easier for say some one outside the EU to marry a German who lives in the UK than marry an English man in the UK which can't be right!

[7by7]

It's easier for say some one outside the EU to marry a German who lives in the UK than marry an English man in the UK which can't be right!

The same regulations mean that it is easier for the spouse of an Englishman to settle with her husband in Germany than it is for the spouse of a German to do so.

Whether those regulations are right or not is a subject for a different topic; this one is about the new English test for spouses etc. who wish to settle in the UK.

[asia_pilot]

Not realy new for Germany, as this is EU law since 2007.

[thaigold]

I'm so sorry 7by7, but your facile political whitewash just doesn't hold up under real scrutiny. In a clever misdirection, you lay this visa fiasco at the feet of the former Labour Government and state that the new coalition is simply bringing forward the implementation date. The inference here is that this law was the invention of a prior administration – so no blame affixes.

By the admission of the British press http://www.dailymail...nts-system.html the state of the UK visa process is in a "Shambolic" condition. A quote from aleading British daily characterizes the current South Asia dilemma as follows:"Over ten months the total number of visas handed out to Bangladeshis rose six-foldfrom 3,380 to 21,226." Obviously Britain does have a serious problem in its UK Border offices.

However, many people out here stand stunned at this draconian invasion into a British citizen's personal life. The very fact that a government agency has the power to trespass and intrude upon one of the most private aspects of man or woman's life is obnoxious and a bit Orwellian in this American's view.

Furthermore, it is common knowledge inside the British Legation in Bangkok that the level of English acquirement in the Kingdom is not noteworthy. By simple reasoning the application of these culturally insensitive rules are a de facto immigration barrier to the Thai wives of British subjects. It is an insult to Thai culture and the Thai people. It is ill advised.

It is also interesting to note that certain countries fall outside scope of this new regulation – and note; most are former colonies and possessions of the British Empire. Your official listing, not mine.

We consider that the following countries are majority English-speaking countries:

§ Antigua and Barbuda

§ Australia

§ The Bahamas

§ Barbados

§ Belize

§ Canada

§ Dominica

§ Grenada

§ Guyana

§ Jamaica

§ New Zealand

§ St Kitts and Nevis

§ St Lucia

§ St Vincent and the Grenadines

§ Trinidad and Tobago

§ The United States of America

But then that may be why we Americans call ourselves freemen, not subjects.

Yours to ponder

Edited July 26, 2010 by thaigold

[theoldgit]

Furthermore, it is common knowledge inside the British Legation in Bangkok that the level of English acquirement in the Kingdom is not noteworthy. By simple reasoning the application of these culturally insensitive rules are a de facto immigration barrier to the Thai wives of British subjects. It is an insult to Thai culture and the Thai people. It is ill advised.

Can I ask where you obtained the information about this common knowledge, do you work there?

Can I respectfully point out that there is not a British Legation in Bangkok, Thailand warrants an Embassy not a Legation.

Can I also point out that government policy is set centrally and not by an Embassy.

You indicate that you are American so I will forgive you for quoting the Daily Mail as a font of knowledge, The Daily Mail is no more to be relied on for accuratly reporting facts about the UK than The National Enquirer would be relied on for accurate reporting within the USA.

Edited July 26, 2010 by theoldgit

[7by7]

I'd also be interested in where you got that list of 'exempt' countries from. Immigrants from those countries are not exempt from the current knowledge of life and language requirement in order to obtain indefinite leave to remain, and the official announcement of this new measure I linked to earlier says 'all non-European.'

So, can you please provide a link to confirm you assertion. Preferably a government one, or at least one to a source a bit more reliable than the Daily Mail!

The reason I mentioned this proposal was a hangover from the previous government was to show that it is not new; indeed it has been discussed on this forum before.

In you first post you rant about East Asians, in your second it's South Asians. Make up your mind. Although, if you're using the Daily Mail as your source, it is hardly surprising that confusion reigns over your posts. Whichever group it is that you are against, they too will have to meet this new requirement, just as they currently have to meet the same requirements that Thais do.

Surely even an American must have noticed that many Thais; especially those who are most likely to meet and marry Brits or other foreigners, can speak some English.

Finally, you should read some of the posts on here from your compatriots about getting a US visa for their partners. Even with this new test, the UK system is a lot easier and certainly a lot quicker than the US one. Perhaps you should seek to put your own house in order before criticising others?

[Bastian]

In other words, a British citizen who marries a Thai national – his wife is denied entry to Britain until she can pass an English fluency test.

But the wife could still enter on a visit visa, she just would be denied a settlement visa until she has passed the test.

The language requirement serves afaik the purpose of protecting the foreign spouse from abusive partners, as somebody without any english skills would feel completely helpless and at the mercy of their british spouse, who may exploit that position. Having learnt some english the foreign spouse will be more capable of helping her- or himself, be more selfconfident and less reluctant to leave her or his partner and report abuse to the police. Literacy in english will help them to more quickly understand basic things, which may be completely different from the way things are in the country the foreign spouse comes from, like that you do no have to pay the police in order for them to help you or that you are entitled to alimony payments, if you leave your spouse.

So this law is intended to help the foreign wifes and husbands, not discriminate them.

On another note, what I find disturbing is that Britain only allows the spouses of rich citizens to join their british spouses, that is unfair.

[thaigold]

Your questions:

Contrary to common beliefs, we Americans are fully capable of enduring British friendships. I think we proved that on D Day – no visasrequired then. And yes, I have British friends at work throughout the Thai constellation. Propriety deems further comment on this unnecessary.

The use of the term "Legation" was inserted strictly for the"amusement" of the poster who opined on my initial visa comment. It was also an allusion to the seeming withering of the Embassy grounds – especially with the mini-Disneyland standing where Queen Victoria once proudly guarded the stately entrance off Sukhumvit. Oh, and the fact that the British Legation, oops, I slipped "Embassy" is rumoured to be outsourcing its visa services.

As previously asked, how can the exclusion of a British spouse possibly be the business of an embassy wonk, caught up in the labyrinthine corridors of some mismanaged British bureaucracy? And mismanaged it was – you folks still have freedom of the press. Goggle it.

Edited July 26, 2010 by thaigold

[thaigold]

I'd also be interested in where you got that list of 'exempt' countries from. Immigrants from those countries are not exempt from the current knowledge of life and language requirement in order to obtain indefinite leave to remain, and the official announcement of this new measure I linked to earlier says 'all non-European.'

So, can you please provide a link to confirm you assertion. Preferably a government one, or at least one to a source a bit more reliable than the Daily Mail!

The reason I mentioned this proposal was a hangover from the previous government was to show that it is not new; indeed it has been discussed on this forum before.

In you first post you rant about East Asians, in your second it's South Asians. Make up your mind. Although, if you're using the Daily Mail as your source, it is hardly surprising that confusion reigns over your posts. Whichever group it is that you are against, they too will have to meet this new requirement, just as they currently have to meet the same requirements that Thais do.

Surely even an American must have noticed that many Thais; especially those who are most likely to meet and marry Brits or other foreigners, can speak some English.

Finally, you should read some of the posts on here from your compatriots about getting a US visa for their partners. Even with this new test, the UK system is a lot easier and certainly a lot quicker than the US one. Perhaps you should seek to put your own house in order before criticising others?

Actually, it came from your own government's UK Border Agency's web site.

Here's the page in all its flaming glory:

http://www.bia.homeo...nguage-partners

And yes, the US Embassy is a tough call, but I can assureyou of one salient point - if an American weds overseas, and the spouse can only speak Swahili, that legal spouse would be welcomed into the UnitedStates.

This whole kafuffle is a bit odious, like class-consciousness revealed. Judging people by their language, voice, tone,and inflections is so passé'.

Thank heavens we Americans have no Lady Bushes or Lord Brad Pitt's.

[7by7]

Thank you for the link, I must admit that I had missed that page.

However, even you must accept that if the applicant is from an Anglophone country then asking them to take a basic English test would be rather pointless.

That they are mostly members of the Commonwealth is not surprising, for obvious reasons. However, most Commonwealth nations are not Anglophone, and applicant's from those countries will have to take this test.

As said before, unless one entered the UK under the provisions of European Parliament and Council Directive 2004/38/EC, in order to obtain Indefinite Leave to Remain everyone has to satisfy the knowledge of language and life in the UK requirement; no matter their nationality and whether they are an Anglophone or not.

The 'Embassy wonks' you refer to are operating under the immigration rules; they don't set these rules, Parliament does. Surely the US has a similar system; government employees judging whether an applicant meets the requirements laid down by the US government for the visa for which they have applied?

Again, if you believe that simply getting married means that an American citizen will automatically and easily obtain a visa for their spouse to live in the US, you should read some of the posts on this forum by your fellow Americans!

What the relevance of D-day is, I can't fathom.

Surely you would accept that being able to speak the language of the country in which one lives, even if only at a basic level, can only be of benefit?

Not racist, not a class thing (and if you believe there is no class system in the US, you must be very naive!), simply common sense which can only be of long term benefit to the applicant.

[LaoPo]

This Language rule was discussed before:

LaoPo

[jackinbkk]

This is one reason why I will tell my girlfriend to just seek asylum.

If you can say you want it your here (UK) for a good number of years from what I see on tele

Just to remove any doubt. This was a joke. Hence the ninja :ph34r:

Edited July 27, 2010 by jackinbkk

[lekatai]

In the OP's post,he stated that these new rules apply to persons marrying after autumn 2010.However,in the information on the UK governments website,it doesn't appear to me to say that,but refers to people applying after that date, regardless of when they were actually married.It may well be that I've misread it or missed the relevant section,but can anyone clarify which is the correct interpretation.It affects me directly,and I am sure many other people as well

[thaigold]

Thank you for the link, I must admit that I had missed that page.

However, even you must accept that if the applicant is from an Anglophone country then asking them to take a basic English test would be rather pointless.

That they are mostly members of the Commonwealth is not surprising, for obvious reasons. However, most Commonwealth nations are not Anglophone, and applicant's from those countries will have to take this test.

As said before, unless one entered the UK under the provisions of European Parliament and Council Directive 2004/38/EC, in order to obtain Indefinite Leave to Remain everyone has to satisfy the knowledge of language and life in the UK requirement; no matter their nationality and whether they are an Anglophone or not.

The 'Embassy wonks' you refer to are operating under the immigration rules; they don't set these rules, Parliament does. Surely the US has a similar system; government employees judging whether an applicant meets the requirements laid down by the US government for the visa for which they have applied?

Again, if you believe that simply getting married means that an American citizen will automatically and easily obtain a visa for their spouse to live in the US, you should read some of the posts on this forum by your fellow Americans!

What the relevance of D-day is, I can't fathom.

Surely you would accept that being able to speak the language of the country in which one lives, even if only at a basic level, can only be of benefit?

Not racist, not a class thing (and if you believe there is no class system in the US, you must be very naive!), simply common sense which can only be of long term benefit to the applicant.

Thanks for your comment. Please understand that I was not willfully impugning UK Borders policy - just a bit of contrarian fulmination on my part. My country has major problems with immigration, troubles that make Britain's pale by comparison. It was just the fact that Borders chose such a seemingly minor component of immigration as a focus of immigration control. Especially since it was in such a private and socially sensitive area.

Some say, and I quote, "It is a blessing for an individual to be bilingual; however, it is a curse for a society to be bilingual."

We Americans have our own crosses to bear - in California, if I call a government office I first get a generous menu of languages to choose from. Heck, we recently had a 200 thousand Latinos marching in the streets of Los Angeles with Mexican flags. Just imagine 500 Americans marching up Rachadaprarop waving "Old Glory" and ranting in protest. Well, we both know the answer to this one.

[7by7]

Lekatai, the measure will apply to all new applications after the date it comes into force; regardless of when the marriage took place.

Thaigold, the UKBA didn't choose to do this; the elected government did. The main intention of the measure is to help immigrants integrate into British society once they are here, not to control the numbers coming; although I do accept that a tiny minority may have difficulty with this.

Bearing in mind the fear of some that Spanish will soon be the majority language in the US, your government may be considering doing similar!

[jcartermad]

The new language requirement, when it is introduced, will apply to anyone applying as the husband, wife, civil partner, unmarried partner, same-sex partner, fiance(e) or prospective civil partner of a UK citizen or a person settled in the UK. Not just from Thailand, but also the North African and East Asian hordes (that exist only in your imagination) and everywhere outside the EU.

This requirement was set up by the last Labour government, the new coalition have simply brought forward the implementation date.

It is not a racist rant, it can't be racist as it applies to all, regardless of their race; except EU nationals and their partners, and that's only because various EU treaties mean that it is not possible to do so. One may not agree with the new requirement, but it is not racist and no apology is necessary.

The test itself will be relatively easy; spoken English at approximately the standard of a native born 7 year old.

Full details have yet to be announced by the government; but for more information see Migrants marrying UK citizens must now learn English.

The article you mention deals mainly with the introduction of a similar requirement by the German government; and all the responses from Thais in that article are positive as they feel having some knowledge of the language will benefit them in their new home.

So, what is your point?

Try getting on the tube in London, working in an office that employes contract workers or just take a day trip to Calais. You will find hordes of non English speaking persons from all points of the globe. Afkans, Iraqi's, Various Africans, Albanians...you name it, they are there. Their command of English is poor or non existant...apart from the necessary to obtain money. Many come to Britain illegally so no language test.

The test is a farce. I don's speak Thai, nor Arabic when i lived in the Middle East. I got by. Legal immigrants get by without English. We have many UK nationals from the Indian Sub Continent that still cannot speak English. Go down Brick Lane in Tower Hamlets and see for your self.

I am not against immigration...if it is legal. I am against funding illegal immigrants as the UK authorities are. This law restricts the right to marry a lady of your choice. It is racists and all these goodies say it is not would get a right could shock if the Thai authorities did the same. Retirement visa sir? Let's see if you can speak 7 year old level Thai. I bet the coin would flip and the cries of racists would echo down the streets of the farang gettoes.

My wife is Thai. She speaks perfect English, teaches English at University level so i'm Ok Jack. What about all the guys who have perfectly good wifes / kids that dont speak English to the required level...should they be excluded from the UK. Certainly not. Just my view. Be open, we are all human but make sure that immigration is legal rather that restrictive against UK man & Thai wife.

[Arkady]

The level of English required is quite simple. It applies to all applicants for settlement. What kind of live are they going to have in the UK anyway, if they can't pass this basic test. Thailand introduced a Thai language proficiency requirement for permanent residence nearly 10 years ago. So the UK is behind.

[7by7]

I can never understand the attitude of posts like that made by jcartermad.

He seems to be saying that immigrants should not be allowed in; unless they are Thai and the wife of a Brit!

Other than that, his post seems to be a misinformed, unintelligible rant.

Where I live there is a large ethnic Pakistani community; mostly 2nd and 3rd generation now. Yes, they speak Urdu among themselves, but they also speak English to everyone else.

There is also a fairly large Chinese community; they speak (I believe) Cantonese among themselves and English to everyone else.

Those Thais living in the area speak Thai to each other and English to everyone else.

Those East Europeans in the area speak Slovakian, Polish, whatever among themselves and English to everyone else.

Illegal immigrants are illegal; they have not complied with any of the rules and if found will be removed (subject to appeal).

As for the lack of English speakers in Calais; that city is in France; it stopped being an English possession in 1558!

[yeesipha]

I can never understand the attitude of posts like that made by jcartermad.

He seems to be saying that immigrants should not be allowed in; unless they are Thai and the wife of a Brit!

Other than that, his post seems to be a misinformed, unintelligible rant.

Where I live there is a large ethnic Pakistani community; mostly 2nd and 3rd generation now. Yes, they speak Urdu among themselves, but they also speak English to everyone else.

There is also a fairly large Chinese community; they speak (I believe) Cantonese among themselves and English to everyone else.

Those Thais living in the area speak Thai to each other and English to everyone else.

Those East Europeans in the area speak Slovakian, Polish, whatever among themselves and English to everyone else.

Illegal immigrants are illegal; they have not complied with any of the rules and if found will be removed (subject to appeal).

As for the lack of English speakers in Calais; that city is in France; it stopped being an English possession in 1558!

ITS THE SAME OLD STORY OF THE DUMB AND DUMBER BRITISH GOVERMENT SHOOTING AT THE WRONG TARGET AGAIN!EASY TO TARGET PEOPLE WHO DO THINGS BY THE BOOK(IE APPLY FOR VISA THE CORRECT WAY).THE BRITISH PUBLIC MUST BE <deleted>£$%&G STUPID NOT TO SEE THE REAL PROBLEMS AROUND THEM WITH ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION,AND WHAT IS THIS FECKLESS GOVERMENT DOING ABOUT THIS,NOTHING! ILLEGALS SHE BE ROUNDED UP,NO PAPERS OR PASSPORT, THEN PUT ON THE NEXT FLIGHT OUT OF THE UK SIMPLE!

Edited August 1, 2010 by yeesipha

[knortyboy]

This law restricts the right to marry a lady of your choice.

Are you sure? That's certainly not my understanding of the new ruling.

[theoldgit]

ITS THE SAME OLD STORY OF THE DUMB AND DUMBER BRITISH GOVERMENT SHOOTING AT THE WRONG TARGET AGAIN!EASY TO TARGET PEOPLE WHO DO THINGS BY THE BOOK(IE APPLY FOR VISA THE CORRECT WAY).THE BRITISH PUBLIC MUST BE <deleted>£$%&G STUPID NOT TO SEE THE REAL PROBLEMS AROUND THEM WITH ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION,AND WHAT IS THIS FECKLESS GOVERMENT DOING ABOUT THIS,NOTHING! ILLEGALS SHE BE ROUNDED UP,NO PAPERS OR PASSPORT, THEN PUT ON THE NEXT FLIGHT OUT OF THE UK SIMPLE!

I would be grateful for some advice here, you seem to think it's simple, just how do you identify and round up all these illegals?

If they have no papers or passports how are you going to put them "on the next flight out of the UK", where exactly would you send them and which country would accept them without proper documentation?

UKBA already have enforcement teams that scour the UK looking for illegal immigrants and visa overstays whom they detain and remove from the UK. There are 11 Immigration Removal Centres throughout the UK, David Blunkett actually changed the name from Detention to Removal Centres to give a message that their purpose is to remove and not detain, to facilitate this operation, and large numbers are successfully removed every year. The enforcement teams and caseworkers face an uphill struggle to get people removed, there are pressure groups, lawyers, the judiciary and even the great British public fighting their every move, and countries are very reluctant to issue travel documents or even to admit to people being citizens of their respective countries. So it is not, as you suggest it is, "Simple".

Don't get me wrong I don't like the visa application process I find it demeaning, but I think that countries requiring people to speak the language of the country they wish to settle, to a very basic level, understand the difficulties of living in a country where you cannot make yourself understood or understand what people are saying, and by introducing these requirements are trying to help such people, so I believe this requirement is a positive one.

Just one more thing, please don't post in caps, it is bad etiquette.

[theoldgit]

This law restricts the right to marry a lady of your choice.

Are you sure? That's certainly not my understanding of the new ruling.

Nor my understanding.

[How]

Don't worry guys I'm sure the Thai government will come up with a reciprocal agreement. All farangs wishing to come and live (with or without spouse) in LOS will have to pass a Thai or I-saan (Laos) Verbal test before they can obtain a Non Immigrant O, B or whatever ,Oh what about adding this requirement to a Tourist Visa or Visa on arrival as well.

[bangkockney]

It is just listening and speaking skills that will be tested, not reading and writing. The required level is absolute beginner, a score of 1.0 - 2.5 in the popular IELTS test.

UK immigration has been subject to abuse for many, many years. It is about time something was done to combat this. At least if partners have a minimum grasp of the English language they stand a much better chance of integrating into British society and not ending up as another welfare claimant.

You should consider it lucky that partners only need a basic grasp of English. If you want to come to the UK to learn English for more than 6 months you are required to be at A level standard - this is the real injustice and is quite absurd.

Edited August 4, 2010 by bangkockney

[bangkockney]

By the admission of the British press http://www.dailymail...nts-system.html the state of the UK visa process is in a "Shambolic" condition. A quote from aleading British daily characterizes the current South Asia dilemma as follows:"Over ten months the total number of visas handed out to Bangladeshis rose six-foldfrom 3,380 to 21,226." Obviously Britain does have a serious problem in its UK Border offices.

Be careful of what you believe in the press.

In the High Court recently the UK Border Agency was given the opportunity to prove once and for all that economic migrants were using the student visa route as a way into the UK; specifically English language courses.

You would have thought the opportunity would have been taken to bring everything out in the open.

The UK Border Agency could not produce one shred of evidence.

I implore you to read the judgement for yourself. You can arm yourself with the facts. Case reference: [2010] EWHC 1726 (Admin) .