Extension Of Stay

[jfchandler]

I know that, Jing...

The only purpose of my comment was to emphasize that there clearly are advantages to keeping a person's quick-access cash funds in the U.S. banking system vs. in regular Thai bank accounts...

In the U.S., a saavy investor can still earn 4-5% interest on bank deposits, even now in these lousy interest rate times, and those earnings can go toward a person's documentable monthly income amount for retirement extension of stay purposes... along with pensions or other income.

In Thailand, I don't believe there are the same range of options available for making any kind of decent return on bank deposit funds... 1-2% at best, if you're lucky. And then there would be the automatic 15% government withholding tax. And then, many farang on TV seem to complain about having normally interest bearing Thai bank accounts that they claim don't pay them any interest.... So I'm not clear what's going on about that...

No, but interest or other recurring earnings generated from money that is sitting in the bank is income...for purposes of qualifying under the Immigration guidelines....

Agreed. 100 percent. To be clear, I never said differently.

[InterestedObserver]

In all reality, the paper from the US is a total "crock of shit", and certainly NOT worth the paper it's printed on (even at $50US) !!

It is what it is. A sworn statement, under oath, by an individual and notarized by a US Government consular official under penalty of perjury. The first time somebody from Thailand is arrested by the feds and thrown in the slammer in the US for lying under oath will be the day of awakening.

[Hurricane51]

I know that, Jing...

The only purpose of my comment was to emphasize that there clearly are advantages to keeping a person's quick-access cash funds in the U.S. banking system vs. in regular Thai bank accounts...

In the U.S., a saavy investor can still earn 4-5% interest on bank deposits, even now in these lousy interest rate times, and those earnings can go toward a person's documentable monthly income amount for retirement extension of stay purposes... along with pensions or other income.

In Thailand, I don't believe there are the same range of options available for making any kind of decent return on bank deposit funds... 1-2% at best, if you're lucky. And then there would be the automatic 15% government withholding tax. And then, many farang on TV seem to complain about having normally interest bearing Thai bank accounts that they claim don't pay them any interest.... So I'm not clear what's going on about that...

No, but interest or other recurring earnings generated from money that is sitting in the bank is income...for purposes of qualifying under the Immigration guidelines....

Agreed. 100 percent. To be clear, I never said differently.

Please Please Please tell me where I can earn 4-5% in a US bank with quick access to those funds.

[Jingthing]

In all reality, the paper from the US is a total "crock of shit", and certainly NOT worth the paper it's printed on (even at $50US) !!

It is what it is. A sworn statement, under oath, by an individual and notarized by a US Government consular official under penalty of perjury. The first time somebody from Thailand is arrested by the feds and thrown in the slammer in the US for lying under oath will be the day of awakening.

I recall over the years hearing some reports that immigration has asked for documentation to support the embassy letters. They do know that Americans require no proof to the embassy. Of course the odds of them asking may be low, but it can happen, and they have every right to ask any applicant for more information for any reason at any time. Up to you, but I wouldn't want to risk being caught out lying to Thai immigration that blatantly (it is a crime).

Edited July 29, 2010 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

Agreed, the US embassy policy is fine as is. It's certainly not anything that non-Americans have any business criticizing.

[jfchandler]

The answer to that is so-called rewards checking accounts (RCAs)... And I should add, everything I say below is applicable to Americans who have a U.S. mailing address, which the banks/CUs will require.

Typically no monthly fee, no minimum balance, regular checking accounts that are FDIC insured with regular banks or credit unions.

The catch is, to qualify for the 3% to 4.5% interest rates even today, the account holder typically has to meet several requirements each month, usually along the lines of...

-- 10 to 15 VISA or MC debit card transactions each month, usually can be of any amount

(this does not include ATM withdrawals, just purchases).

-- usually 1 ACH debit in or out of the account per month in any amount.

-- sometimes 1 electronic bill pay done thru the account.

-- and always agreeing to accept electronic monthly statements instead of mailed ones...

-- usually for such accounts, there's a maximum balance of $25,000 (sometimes $10,000) per account) that is eligible to earn the rewards interest rate. But there's no limit, of course, on the number of those kinds of accounts a person can use.

I used to pay cash for my groceries at Tesco, Carrefour, Big C, etc etc... And same when we went out to eat in restaurants... Now I consciously pay via debit card instead of by cash, and it's no problem at all to meet the requirements for multiple accounts during a month, especially if you're doing a lot of grocery store shopping...instead of buying food from the 20 baht Thai carts that don't take debit cards.

If you don't meet the requirements for a particular month, the rate usually falls drastically to something under 1%... But I don't think I've ever missed qualifying for any of my accounts for a month... It just takes paying attention a bit... And if you do miss for one month, then the whole process starts fresh again the next month and you can qualify again... The interest payments are then automatically credited to one's account at the end of each monthly period.

You can find a lot of info on the various banks and CUs offering such accounts here:

http://www.depositac...g-accounts.html

Please Please Please tell me where I can earn 4-5% in a US bank with quick access to those funds.

Edited July 29, 2010 by jfchandler

[JimGant]

...the US embassy policy is fine as is. It's certainly not anything that non-Americans have any business criticizing.

The only non-American critics allowed should be Thais. And so far, they seem content to leave well-enough alone. If other embassies want to add burdensome requirements for their citizens, apparently not requested by the Thais, so be it.

And, realistically, how close can the Thais scrutinize that 65k figure? Reportedly, "gross" is the figure the Thais will accept (if they ever bother to ask for substantiation). But after taxes, child support, alimony, blah blah, the Thais will have no real idea about how capable the farang is in supporting himself in Thailand. Positive cash flow, available for spending in Thailand, is the figure they're really interested in. And if eventually they feel they're getting snookered on the sustainability issue, well, minimums in the bank, and proof of inflows, will become the only option.

The US statement neatly stays away from "net," "gross," and even "income" issues. It merely states: "He affirms that he receives in amount of US$ xxxxx.xx every month from the US Government and/or other sources."

So, drawing down your Stateside savings or IRA accounts -- or borrowing from Aunt Tilda -- makes you ok with this sworn statement. And no where are you stating -- or implying -- this cash flow is "income."

Now, I guess some could take issue with the term "receives" when applied to drawing-down existing accounts. However, my take is, drawing down my savings account is self-annuitizing, much preferable in these times of low interest rates to going out and buying an immediate-pay annuity. The latter, of course, would be the same as a pension, certainly meeting any "receives" criteria that anyone could establish. Self-annuitizing, therefore, is not a stretch, IMO.

Anyway, the current 'cash flow' criteria, per the sworn statement, certainly allows some wiggle room for the Yanks, allowing more "spirit" than "letter" (if there is one) to the Thai "income" law. However, I just hope there aren't too many unethical Yanks jerking this around. But, I'm sure -- unfortunately -- there are some.....

[jfchandler]

This may be a request in vain..but nonetheless... the original thread here was about qualifying for extension of stay, and the details of how to qualify for that... Perhaps now we might get back to that main thrust of the thread...if anyone else has anything to add on that subject...

[JimGant]

This may be a request in vain..but nonetheless... the original thread here was about qualifying for extension of stay, and the details of how to qualify for that.

Right. And information for Yanks, about how you actually have some wiggle room for getting an "income letter" seemed pretty pertinent.

However, take your RCA article and shove it seems pertinent at this point...

Thread creep, indeed.

(With apologies to Jingthing, as, with the exception of one or two, we've all gone afield of the original focus. However, sometimes tangents don't always dictate a new thread...)

[jfchandler]

Jim, my suggestion wasn't aimed at your comment at all, though unfortunately it just happened to follow it...

It really was aimed at getting off the "how Americans scam the system" discussion... I'd think and hope you can agree about that.

And re RCAs, if you'll notice, I was answering a direct question from another poster, so you might reconsider your shoot from the lip remarks.

This may be a request in vain..but nonetheless... the original thread here was about qualifying for extension of stay, and the details of how to qualify for that.

Right. And information for Yanks, about how you actually have some wiggle room for getting an "income letter" seemed pretty pertinent.

However, take your RCA article and shove it seems pertinent at this point...

Thread creep, indeed.

(With apologies to Jingthing, as, with the exception of one or two, we've all gone afield of the original focus. However, sometimes tangents don't always dictate a new thread...)

Edited July 30, 2010 by jfchandler

[Tod Daniels]

Tod, sorry, but I find this below an uncharacteristically senseless comment... <SNIP>

You are completely correct, in that was a flippant remark . (Although given my posting penchants I don't know how uncharacteristically senseless it was ) ..

I sincerely apologize (yeah, I know I’m so rarely sincere, how would anyone know, but take my word for it! ).

Actually, if the truth were to be told (which it is as I'm telling you now ) I tried to go back and edit that outta my post, but alas my 'time had expired'. I was in the middle of another post at the time, and was gonna write a mod to delete it, but it slipped my mind. BTW: I sent a P/M to the mods already

FWIW: I too hate the abysmal interest rates given for money in a standard savings account here. ..

Again, sorry to ruffle any feathers.

[jfchandler]

Thanks Tod... Much appreciate the re-think....

I know what you were trying to get at, in that comment... But in practical, financial terms, it kinda came out the wrong way, IMHO...

So now I'll also revise my earlier response to you... and instead say... it was a characteristically senseless comment!!!

Feeling better now??? :lol:

[JimGant]

I'd think and hope you can agree about that.

You bet. Unethical crumbbumbs are at the bottom of my list.

Your "reply" seemed so off character, I guess I should have realized it was aimed elsewhere.

Cheers.

[jfchandler]

You're right.. It was... Sorry for the misunderstanding... :jap:

[Hurricane51]

The answer to that is so-called rewards checking accounts (RCAs)... And I should add, everything I say below is applicable to Americans who have a U.S. mailing address, which the banks/CUs will require.

Typically no monthly fee, no minimum balance, regular checking accounts that are FDIC insured with regular banks or credit unions.

The catch is, to qualify for the 3% to 4.5% interest rates even today, the account holder typically has to meet several requirements each month, usually along the lines of...

-- 10 to 15 VISA or MC debit card transactions each month, usually can be of any amount

(this does not include ATM withdrawals, just purchases).

-- usually 1 ACH debit in or out of the account per month in any amount.

-- sometimes 1 electronic bill pay done thru the account.

-- and always agreeing to accept electronic monthly statements instead of mailed ones...

-- usually for such accounts, there's a maximum balance of $25,000 (sometimes $10,000) per account) that is eligible to earn the rewards interest rate. But there's no limit, of course, on the number of those kinds of accounts a person can use.

I used to pay cash for my groceries at Tesco, Carrefour, Big C, etc etc... And same when we went out to eat in restaurants... Now I consciously pay via debit card instead of by cash, and it's no problem at all to meet the requirements for multiple accounts during a month, especially if you're doing a lot of grocery store shopping...instead of buying food from the 20 baht Thai carts that don't take debit cards.

If you don't meet the requirements for a particular month, the rate usually falls drastically to something under 1%... But I don't think I've ever missed qualifying for any of my accounts for a month... It just takes paying attention a bit... And if you do miss for one month, then the whole process starts fresh again the next month and you can qualify again... The interest payments are then automatically credited to one's account at the end of each monthly period.

You can find a lot of info on the various banks and CUs offering such accounts here:

http://www.depositac...g-accounts.html

Please Please Please tell me where I can earn 4-5% in a US bank with quick access to those funds.

Are you saying that you use a debit card from a U.S. checking account to purchase items in Thailand and you don't pay a penalty that would wipe out any savings in interest?

[jfchandler]

Yes...that's correct... MC and VISA debit cards used with most rewards checking accounts are different from typical MC and VISA credit cards in that respect...

All the major U.S. banks, for the most part, do charge hefty foreign transaction fees up to 3% or more... However, the RCA accounts typically are not done by the major U.S. banks... And all the RCA accounts I'm familiar with don't charge those kinds of fees. Of the ones I'm familiar with, most charge the usual 1% VISA/MC foreign transaction fee and nothing else for purchases and ATM withdrawals abroad. Some of them don't charge that at all. And on the flip side, most of the RCA accounts refund all ATM fees incurred nationwide in the U.S., and some even internationally, if you qualify for the account in that same month.

In short, the RCA debit cards are perfectly usable here, and usually a much better deal than either normal U.S. credit cards or big bank debit cards.

Are you saying that you use a debit card from a U.S. checking account to purchase items in Thailand and you don't pay a penalty that would wipe out any savings in interest?

[Suradit]

One would hope that visa threads would be troll free. Oh well ...

Mai kow chai...what's you point?

I was being sincere...why would any American (myself included) be concerned with your question as it never has to apply to them (unless and until the American embassy changes its policy or Thai immigration officers learn to read better English.

Is that "learn to read English better," or "learn to read better English?"

How does their English compare the UK or US Immigration officers' ability to read Thai?

One would hope that visa threads would be troll free. Oh well ...

Pot and Kettle analogies anyone?

[Wombat6]

This may be a request in vain..but nonetheless... the original thread here was about qualifying for extension of stay, and the details of how to qualify for that... Perhaps now we might get back to that main thrust of the thread...if anyone else has anything to add on that subject...

I use the "Combination" method when applying for an extension to my Retirement Visa. I submit a "Statutory Declaration" which is witnessed and Stamped at the Australian Embassy. It is possible to make whatever statement you like as to the amount of income you receive as no proof is required by the Embassy, but,legal action could be a possibility for making a false declaration. In my case, I enter the amount of my pension as an item and then insert the interest I receive from a term deposit I have in Australia. I show the total amount in Australian Dollars and then convert this amount to Thai Baht at an estimated exchange rate (you are stating your known income in A$ but the exchange rate is a bit of a guess and can be manipulated a bit to ensure you meet the Combination of 800,000 baht. immigration accepts a letter from your Thai bank that confirms you are a customer of the Bank and what your current Balance with the Bank is(. I have never been asked how long the money I have in the Thai bank has been there)(seasoning as some of you call it) I always take Bank statements and documentation to prove the amounts in A$ which I have stated in the Stat Dec.to immigration which I supply if requested.

I tend to try and live off the money in the Thai bank for most of the year and just top it up to a requried amount when extension time is due. My pension and Bank interest is paid into my Australian Bank a/c as I earn over 5% on that money

[jfchandler]

For purposes of qualifying for an extension of stay based on retirement, it's irrelevant what anyone plans to spend or does spend to support themselves here in Thailand.

--If you're qualifying on the basis of 800,000 baht or more on deposit, the money must be in a bank in Thailand, not in their home country.

--If you're qualifying on the basis of an consular income letter, the income can be from inside Thailand or outside Thailand, location is irrelevant in terms of meeting the requirement.

[Mario2008]

You either qualify on the basis of having 800,000 in bank account in Thailand, OR having an income of 65,000 a month OR having a combination of yearly income and money in the bank.

Where the income is concerned it can be from abroad or from within Thailand. Incoem from abroad is certified with a letter from your embassy, income from within Thailand with tax documents.

[SurfRider]

.

"Please Please Please tell me where I can earn 4-5% in a US bank with quick access to those funds."

An option that can currently pay well over 6% would be to open an account with a brokerage firm that gives you a Debit Card with the account. Minimum balance can be as low as US$5000 with some brokerages. Funds can be transferred in and out of the account on-line and withdrawn at the best available exchange rate via an ATM -- either without the Thai ATM fee ( at AEON ATMs ) -- some accounts will also reimburse the Thai ATM fee if you use any other Thai ATM.

Invest the funds in high dividend yielding stocks in solid companies, such as the group known as "Dividend Champions" -- Here's the yield on the current top 5 as of July 30, 2010

Company........................ Yield

CenturyLink Inc............... 8.14%

AT&T Inc......................... 6.48%

Altria Group Inc............... 6.32%

BancorpSouth Inc............ 6.00%

Pitney Bowes Inc............. 5.98%

.

[ianh68]

For what it's worth and if I'm not too late I have been extending my OA retirement visa using the combination method for three years now. I err on the side of caution and try to follow the rules. So far everything has been very smooth. This is what I do:

I get all the forms from the immigration website and type in answers where I can and store them on the computer. That means the next year I can just over type a few details and print out a fresh form very easily.

I get the income verification letter from my UK consulate which details my annual UK pension paid into my Thai bank account. (Next year I'm going to try and do this by post because I can't get there early enough to avoid having to come back the next day.) The pound has been fluctuating so let's say 40,000 baht a month is a floor which I'm not likely to go under. So I'm looking at 480,000 baht a year income, say 500,000. This means I'm 300,000 short on the 800,000 requirement. I therefore ensure my Thai bank account always floats above 300,000.

I get the capital verification letter from my bank a maximum of three days before I go to immigration, preferably the day before. It costs me 100 baht and I usually have to wait no more an hour for it.

The immigration officer does look at the income verification letter, she does do her sums and she does ensure that monthly income x 12 plus capital comes up to the mark. After that it's just a matter of smiling through the stack of paperwork she undertakes.

Hope that's of some help. In my experience the whole immigration thing is fiddly but there's no point bellyaching, it only makes matters worse and if you follow the rules it's usually pretty smooth.

[Fore Man]

I have enjoyed, for the most part, browsing through the earlier posts. Aside from the inevitable famers and trolls, there is a lot of good information to be had.

I have been here full-time since 2004, obtaining my annual extension of stay based solely on showing proof of THB 800K in my local account, properly seasoned of course. To me this requirement is an artifice demanded by the Thai government....we foreigners have a multitude of means to stay afloat when living permanently outside our home countries and having money in a Thai bank is meaningless. We have never tapped into that THB 800K+ bank account to live here...it simply remains on deposit wholly as a convenient means to get annual extensions of stay. We do however pay our in-country expenses almost entirely by hitting the ATM, which debits our US bank account. We pay the remainder of our living expenses here by using a US credit card, which I pay every month via my US checking account.

For the first time in 6 years, I am shifting to the 'proof of income' method rather than using seasoned funds in the bank. We want to buy a new automobile next year and will naturally want to use our 800K THB on deposit to help do this. My question is the following:

"After using the 'funds in the bank' method for 6 years, will I run into bureaucratic red tape this year (this month actually) by suddenly switching over to the income method? (I have the U.S. Consulate affidavit, plus ample back-up documentation of my income sources, e.g., W-2s from 2009 federal income tax submission; checking account records, etc)."

The second part of my question is this:

" Will Immigration want to see actual proof of my income sources and is there any impact, good or bad, by showing the full amount I earn (or by holding back)? None of it is earned from Thai sources; it is derived entirely from US earned income and pension sources."

Thanks!

Edited August 1, 2010 by Fore Man

[Mario2008]

There is no problem with switching between methods. You can chose which option you want to take.

Immigration is aware of the US affadavids and ocassionally ask for further proof of your income. It is advisible to take the proof of your income with you, but only show it when they ask for it.

[jfchandler]

By all account, Immigration rarely asked for backup documentation of income, provided you have the appropriate consular letter...

I've never seen any reports of this... But I can imagine, if for some reason someone reported some extraordinarily high figure, the officer might think they were being BS'd and want to see something... But that's just a guess/speculation.

" Will Immigration want to see actual proof of my income sources and is there any impact, good or bad, by showing the full amount I earn (or by holding back)? None of it is earned from Thai sources; it is derived entirely from US earned income and pension sources."

[jfchandler]

Surfrider, that's a sound way to invest, generally speaking, for a portion of one's portfolio....

But just to be clear for everyone else, the approach below involves holding investments in the stock market, and of course, neither the price of the stock nor the future dividend payments are in any way guaranteed.... A good recent example of that, though a bit extreme, is what happened with BP, their stock price and their now canceled dividend. Or outfits like GE and some of the big banks that slashed their dvidends in the recent downturn.

I do favor that approach for a portion of one's portfolio... But I also favor FDIC insured and principal guaranteed approaches such as CDs and rewards checking accounts. Unfortunately, CD rates right now have fallen quite far, and about the best one can expect is 3.5% for a 5 year CD, and less for shorter terms.... There are some rewards checking accounts that are paying 4% nationally, and above 4% in certain local markets... And neither of those investments are subject to stock market loss...

So IMHO, the best approach is some combination of the two....with the portion in either basket depending on one's tolerance for risk, including whether you have other sources of ongoing income, or are living entirely off your retirement savings and investment. A person living entirely off their retirement savings and investment would need to be particularly careful about putting all their financial eggs into the stock market.

.

"Please Please Please tell me where I can earn 4-5% in a US bank with quick access to those funds."

An option that can currently pay well over 6% would be to open an account with a brokerage firm that gives you a Debit Card with the account. Minimum balance can be as low as US$5000 with some brokerages. Funds can be transferred in and out of the account on-line and withdrawn at the best available exchange rate via an ATM -- either without the Thai ATM fee ( at AEON ATMs ) -- some accounts will also reimburse the Thai ATM fee if you use any other Thai ATM.

Invest the funds in high dividend yielding stocks in solid companies, such as the group known as "Dividend Champions" -- Here's the yield on the current top 5 as of July 30, 2010

Company........................ Yield

CenturyLink Inc............... 8.14%

AT&T Inc......................... 6.48%

Altria Group Inc............... 6.32%

BancorpSouth Inc............ 6.00%

Pitney Bowes Inc............. 5.98%

.

[SurfRider]

.

"the approach ... involves holding investments in the stock market ... neither the price of the stock nor the future dividend payments are in any way guaranteed"

True, there's always risk inherent in any investment strategy. I was simply attempting to offer a suggestion that I think most conservative investors would consider to be about as risk adverse as possible and free of all the performance requirements of an RCA account. As always, diversification over a number of securities is always wise to guard against unpredictable events.

The "Dividend Champions" are companies that have consistently, over a number of years, never missed a dividend payment and have also regularly increased their dividends. For most investors, these would be the "cream of the crop", so to speak. To compare these companies with a one-off event like BP, is a bit like speculating that the sun might rise in the western sky tomorrow . . .

.

[jfchandler]

SR, I think you're overstating the case a bit, in portraying BP as an isolated event... It is in environmental terms. It's NOT in investment/dividend terms...

There have been quite a fair number of large U.S. public companies that WERE dividend champions -- until they eliminated or slashed their dividends in the 2008-09 market downturn. They were dividend champtions...right up until the time...they weren't.

And even if a company continues to pay their dividends, that doesn't mean they're immune to significant corrections in stock price. That may not matter if you know you can hold (and not sell) the stocks for the long term. But not everyone operates in that situation.

I believe in dividend investing, particularly as a retirement strategy... But it's not the same as FDIC guaranteed deposits.

Here's one article that recaps some of that dividend carnage two years ago...

Frightening News About Dividend Stocks

by

S lena Maranjian - October 1, 2009 - 0 comments

Company

Dividend Cut

Citigroup

98%

Fannie Mae (NYSE: FNM)

80%

Vulcan Materials

49%

Dow Chemical

64%

General Electric (NYSE: GE)

68%

Those aren't even modest little trims. They're whoppers. And for some of these companies, cuts like this haven't happened in a long time. In its 112-year history, Dow Chemical, for example, had never cut its dividend. For General Electric, you'd have to go back 71 years to find the most recent reduction.

[SurfRider]

.

"Here's one article that recaps some of that dividend carnage two years ago"

Your posted link to Money-Times returns "Access denied"

I'm not certain that your examples ever qualified for the official "Champions" roster, which has VERY strict criteria-- it would take some research over time to learn if they were ever on the list-- but clearly they're formidable companies that suffered from rare circumstances.

In the interest of comparison, attached is an Excel spreadsheet with 100 of the Dividend Champions that DID NOT suffer the same fate as your examples. The list is sorted by consistent dividends over a period of 25 to 50 years.

.

U.S.Dividend_Champions.xls

[jfchandler]

Here's the group of Dividend Aristocrats -- companies that had increased their dividends for 25 or more years consecutively -- that were dropped from that list maintained by S&P for the 2010 year...because they had failed to continue increasing dividends.

There were ten removals from the list – Avery Dennison (AVY), BB&T Corp (BBT), Gannett (GCI), General Electric (GE), Johnson Controls (JCI), Legg Mason (LM), M&T Bank (MTB), Pfizer (PFE), State Street Corp. (STT), and US Bancorp (USB). Remember, to remain on the list they have to increase their dividend, just standing pat will get you removed from the list.

There's also a somewhat complicated distinction between the S&P maintained Dividend Aristocrats list and the Dividend Champions list. An explanation of that is located on this blog....