Extension Of Stay (Thai Wife) New Requirements

[singa-traz]

Last year, immigration informed us that there was a change in documentation required for an extension of stay (Thai Wife).

We married abroad and never took the time to register in Thailand.

It has never been a problem to use the certificate of marriage (in English) issue by the authority where we married, as part of our yearly extension process.

This year, they want to see a document: KOR ROR 22

Anyone could share their experience with getting this document (when married abroad).

Thanks

[The Snark]

One option. Go to the local Thai Gov. Office and register your marriage in Thailand. One hour, said and done. If you think about it, there will be far less hassles, present and in the future, if you have that Thai Gov. issued document.

PS. The Thai immigration wants to see ALL documentation in Thai, or a certified translation into Thai.

Edited July 30, 2010 by The Snark

[7by7]

Moved from visas for other countries to visas for Thailand

[singa-traz]

One option. Go to the local Thai Gov. Office and register your marriage in Thailand. One hour, said and done. If you think about it, there will be far less hassles, present and in the future, if you have that Thai Gov. issued document.

PS. The Thai immigration wants to see ALL documentation in Thai, or a certified translation into Thai.

This is precisely the point of my question. This document is the KOR ROR.22.

From my discussion with immigration (who do not issue this document but requires it), here is what would be required:

- copy / translation of my passport, certified by embassy and stamped by Ministry of Foreign Affair

- copy / translation of the marriage certificate (from abroad), certified by embassy and stamped by Ministry of Foreign Affair

- copy of ID card of Madam

Anything missing?

[The Snark]

I see your conundrum, and other people with similar circumstances should take note of this. But first, to clarify, and muddy the waters somewhat.

You are a victim of new, tighter marriage regulations, thanks to the farangs who have taken advantage of 'marriages of convenience'. IE, marrying a bar girl in order to legitimize one's presence. Last year my wife and I had to produce additional documentation regarding our marriage, though ours was only in Thailand, even though we had been married in country for 6 years.

What you are dealing with are two separate government agencies. The Royal Thai Police, which is what Thai Immigration offices are, and the local government office that records marriages.

The problem is, if you record a marriage in Thailand, a straight forwards function as I mentioned, this invalidates previous extensions made with your out of country marriage. In fact, if the local government wants to be a stickler for the rules, you cannot register a marriage in Thailand as you are already married. This would be up to the head honcho of the registrar office to sort out.

Then it gets even more complex. If they do issue you a registration in Thailand, your previous immigration documentation technically becomes invalid. Obviously this is a gap in their newest regulations. The problem stems from the immigration offices simply being paper pushers for the central immigration office in Bangkok. Getting flustered and frustrated with a local office is useless as they are simply following orders and they have no leeway in how to interpret or apply the laws.

So, my suggestion is, get your certified translation of your existing marriage, then take it to the marriage registrar office and request that office head honcho review the situation. His initials on your new registration being your goal there. Then your paperwork morass really gets started. Immigration is going to want to see every last scrap of paper that proves yours is a long standing marriage and not a marriage of convenience executed outside of the country. They may cut you slack and simply accept the local registration, but I wouldn't bank on it. I would accompany your immigration application with whatever proofs you have that your out of country marriage is legit. Proof of cohabitation papers, all with certified translations, and even photographs which build up a chronology. Yes, photos do help. As in a picture of the happy couple in front of their out of country house. Put all this documentation together in immigration style, 2 copies of everything, initialed, and hand it in with fingers crossed. Any additional proofs of an existing marriage such as letters stating your marriage was legit from out of country officials, certified translated, would also be helpful. In essence, bury them in the paperwork. That is what they want in order to keep the head office in Bangkok happy.

Now I have outlined a worst case scenario. You may not have to go through all that, but for posterity sake, all others be forewarned. Immigration is cracking down hard on the marriage loophole and you can expect it to get worse. Proofs are going to be asked that haven't been asked before. Documentation of every last detail is expected. Documentation such as where your mutual residence(s) were in and outside the country, with proofs of said residences whenever possible. In other words, produce the documentation that you are and have been cohabitant.

I hope this helps. Best of luck to you.

Edited July 30, 2010 by The Snark

[singa-traz]

While discussing with immigration (Samut Prakarn), I got the same impression that he was not empowered to decide what constitute enough evidence for our marriage (in term of required documents).

He did recommend to provide as much document as possible, together with the KR 22, as the KR 22 alone may not be accepted.

Still don't understand what the stamp of the Ministry of Foreign Affair is for.

Certify that the marriage certificate translation (certified by my embassy) is legitimate?

Anyway, we will add the birth certificate of the kids to prove our relationship.

What more can be asked? DNA test?

[lopburi3]

You obtain paper from Embassy and have translation of marriage certificate made which is registered at the MFA to make it a legal document and take that to a District Office and register the paperwork with them. They will provide Kor Ror 2 which is a copy of the ledger entry of the marriage into there system. A marriage registered in Thailand now gets this form as well as the marriage certificate so those doing here recently should have the required documents. Those with old marriages need to visit a District Office to obtain (any office can get if in data base from last decade or so - but if older might have to visit/contact original office of registration to find a copy. For those married outside Thailand the Embassy visit/MFA registration/District Office is the routine.

[The Snark]

I am not sure that I can contribute much further to this. The problem, to call it in black and white, is the Thai Government is winging it, making the regulations up as they go along. As they make up the new regulations to plug leaks, they create more problems and leaks. The way they are dealing with this is exactly the way the American Government handled similar matters in the past. That is, inundate everything in a huge shower of paperwork with paperwork covering the paperwork ad infinitum. This ultimately led the US to creating the paperwork reduction act.

There are obvious leaks and loopholes, and problems created by the new regulations which will require additional paperwork to correct in the future. Such as, having two dates of marriage. One when you were initially married and a second date when you recorded the marriage in Thailand. What is also complicating this is what was named 'the war babies' in some circles. American GIs bring home war brides with sometimes highly questionable paperwork. The Vietnam war era ended up generating over 100 new federal rules and regulations regarding what constitutes a legal, acceptable marriage.

The reason I mention all this is, if it happens, until the Thai Gov. has every detail covered with an official form it is up to you to foresee what might be missing and at least demonstrate a willingness to cooperate with the system as best you possibly can. Fortunately, here in Thailand things are still somewhat flexible. You can add additional proofs to your extension application. As example, my wife and I have a letter stating our cohabitation from our old landlord and our present village jao nai. The Thai immigration looks upon those letters as very solid legit proof.

As for certified translation, any legal document not written in Thai requires such translation, even if the original document is certified. Keep in mind, as far as immigration goes, only documents written in Thai are acceptable. Any paper written in another language must be translated.

I am very curious as to how the immigration department is handling people having two marriage dates as the recognized marriage date in Thailand is the day you record the marriage at the local government office. That date being entered on your Thai marriage certificate. I see another paperwork storm coming up there.

As a comic footnote... I have been doing the extension for almost 10 years now with my application spanning three passports. The last time I did the extension, during the interminable wait, I counted the application papers. 134. It has gotten so bad my wife is now on a first name basis with most of the local immigration officials, even inviting several of them to our housewarming party. Among other interesting foibles over the years, I once had my extension mis-dated, valid for 800 years. I also had to pack around a 6 page memorandum note for 4 years from the head honcho of immigration of northern Thailand explaining an illegible visa stamp date.

Edited July 31, 2010 by The Snark

[TerryLH]

"..this invalidates previous extensions made with your out of country marriage."

"If they do issue you a registration in Thailand, your previous immigration documentation technically becomes invalid."

So, 'technically', if you did this, you'd be on overstay?

[Mario2008]

I am very curious as to how the immigration department is handling people having two marriage dates as the recognized marriage date in Thailand is the day you record the marriage at the local government office. That date being entered on your Thai marriage certificate. I see another paperwork storm coming up there.

You only have one marriage date: The date you marry at the amphur.That is the only legal marriage in Thailand.

If you were married abroad, you only inform the amphur that you are married. In that case it is better to say the amphur records that you are married as opposed to registering a married (you are actually getting married). The marriage date is the date you married abroad.

An extension of stay is decided on by a comittee in bangkok, who reviews the application. That is the reason why you have to wait 30 days for a decision and also why immigration offices want to see a lot of evidence and are very strict regarding these extensions. They don't want t hear back that the have asked insufficient evidence.

Normally once the immigration officer accepts your application, you can be asured that the extension will be accepted.

[The Snark]

I am very curious as to how the immigration department is handling people having two marriage dates as the recognized marriage date in Thailand is the day you record the marriage at the local government office. That date being entered on your Thai marriage certificate. I see another paperwork storm coming up there.

You only have one amrriage date: The date you marry at the amphur.That is the only legal marriage in Thailand.

If you where married abroad, you only inform the amphur that you are married. In that case it is better to say the amphur records that you are married as opposed to registering a married (you are actually getting married). The marriage date is the date you married abroad.

An extension of stay is decided on by a comittee in bangkok, who reviews the application. That is the reason why you have to wait 30 days for a decision and also why immigration offices want to see a lot of evidence and are very strict regarding these extensions. They don't want t hear back that the have asked insufficient evidence.

Normally once the immigration officer accepts your application, you can be asured that the extension will be accepted.

Thanks for clearing that up! I suspected as much. However, while 'rubber stamping' is the rule down in Bangkok, there are occasional exceptions. One farang I saw in action on 3 occasions, who acted fantastically rude and obnoxious, we were told on good authority had a little note added to his application and it was returned, 'Application denied. Please leave the country within 72 hours.' This is a reserved way the immigration office can label someone persona non grata without actually undertaking that process.

[lopburi3]

As said there is only one date of marriage and the fact is Immigration does accept documents in English as well as Thai. The reason for a translation of marriage certificate being required is that it has to be entered at District Office and for that must be in Thai.

[The Snark]

As said there is only one date of marriage and the fact is Immigration does accept documents in English as well as Thai. The reason for a translation of marriage certificate being required is that it has to be entered at District Office and for that must be in Thai.

A little example of one office not knowing what the other one is doing. One official at Chiang Mai Immigration informed us explicitly that all paperwork in any language other than Thai must have a Thai translation (in regards to extension application). He stated 'The only document not requiring translation is the passport.' It is to the point that if some immigration officer was to ask for edible applications I would unhesitatingly head out and buy cream cheese.

[Makyai]

With regards to the KR 22, has anyone experience the head boss wanting to keep the original translation and certification from the MFA? I have been able to obtain the KR22 from my local amphur office, but the head boss has said that he wants the original translation and certification for thier records. I was able to keep the original with me as I told him that immigration needs to see the orignal documents, but as I don't to get on his bad side I don't want to upset him. Never know when I will need his assistance in the future.

[Mario2008]

It seems indeed some immirgation offices want to see the original translation and embassy letter, I have seen some reports of immigration wanting people to get them from the amphur. Normally the amphur wants to keep them, so here is now a conflict over who to give the orginal.

[singa-traz]

OK, here is the status today:

1: Certificate of mariage translated in Thai

2: Certified by the embassy

3: Translation document being "legalized" by MFA

4: Waiting for documents, which will be returned by EMS

Next, visit to the Amphur.

Edited August 6, 2010 by singa-traz

[singa-traz]

Yesterday, finaly got the KR 22 from the Amphur, in less than an hour.

They kept the original documents provided (legalised translation of the mariage certificate by MFA), and accepted to do a certified copy for immigration.

Hope immigration will be happy with this.

[venturalaw]

Yesterday, finaly got the KR 22 from the Amphur, in less than an hour.

They kept the original documents provided (legalised translation of the mariage certificate by MFA), and accepted to do a certified copy for immigration.

Hope immigration will be happy with this.

Photographs are important. I've extended 3 times now and before the last time was told that a pic of us outside our home was required. So I brought 2. One was a pic of the mess of toys strewn across the living room floor with my wife and baby and me standing in the midst of the rubble. That was the one they chose over the one of the wife and me standing in front of our home.

[thongsuknork]

One option. Go to the local Thai Gov. Office and register your marriage in Thailand. One hour, said and done. If you think about it, there will be far less hassles, present and in the future, if you have that Thai Gov. issued document.

PS. The Thai immigration wants to see ALL documentation in Thai, or a certified translation into Thai.

This is precisely the point of my question. This document is the KOR ROR.22.

From my discussion with immigration (who do not issue this document but requires it), here is what would be required:

- copy / translation of my passport, certified by embassy and stamped by Ministry of Foreign Affair

- copy / translation of the marriage certificate (from abroad), certified by embassy and stamped by Ministry of Foreign Affair

- copy of ID card of Madam

Anything missing?

Very simple make a translation of your marriage certificate and go to legalization dept in Laksi and legalize your thai translation and go to Amphur office and register the same i have done the same in April 2010

[dominique355]

Just a suggestion. If you are over 50, forget all the hassle of paperwork evidencing the marriage.

Apply for a retirement visa. Much easier.

[Tracechain]

Interesting items. Thought I would bring this to the table. My Thai wife and I had our marriage registered with the Thai embassy located in Seoul, South Korea. I currently work in Seoul as an invited contractor. We had to do the going to my embassy, getting their stamp of approval, and then she had to gather several documents, etc. We have a nice pretty certificate of the registration of marriage, written both in Thai and English, plus she was given the form to change her ID card upon her return to Thailand. She is currently in Thailand and will remain for the near future as our house is being built. Now, from reading all the above, I wonder if we need to do more? Thoughts anyone?

[HAL9000]

You obtain paper from Embassy and have translation of marriage certificate made which is registered at the MFA to make it a legal document and take that to a District Office and register the paperwork with them. They will provide Kor Ror 2 which is a copy of the ledger entry of the marriage into there system. A marriage registered in Thailand now gets this form as well as the marriage certificate so those doing here recently should have the required documents. Those with old marriages need to visit a District Office to obtain (any office can get if in data base from last decade or so - but if older might have to visit/contact original office of registration to find a copy. For those married outside Thailand the Embassy visit/MFA registration/District Office is the routine.

Thanks for this heads up. I go for my 4th extension of stay (Thai wife/Non-O) next month. The Kor Ror 2 requirement does not appear on the Immigration web site list of required documents yet.

I also wanted to ask about the Kor Ror 22 requirement. Is that only for the case in this thread, or will I need it too?

[lopburi3]

Believe it is the same thing - I never received so can not check but believe correct term is Kor Ror 2 rather than 22.

[HAL9000]

Believe it is the same thing - I never received so can not check but believe correct term is Kor Ror 2 rather than 22.

Right. It seems unclear from the context here. I ran a search on ThaiVisa for Kor Ror 22, and it came up with a thread on changing visa status to marriage, and it has this text:

In case of, marriage registered in Thailand

- Copy of marriage Certificate(Kor Ror.2)

- Copy of marriage Registeration Papers (Kor Ror.3)

In case of, marriage registration in foreign country

- Copy of marriage certificate

- Copy of the family status registration. (Kor Ror.22) (Issued by the district office in Thailand)

While this text was quoted from a Thai govt website, it seems confusing too because my marriage certificate is labeled Kor Ror 3, not 2.

[lopburi3]

The certificate is indeed 3 but that alone is not accepted now and they want both the certificate and the copy of ledger entry which is 2 and until recently was not provided to those who marry but can be obtained for the asking.

[Mario2008]

As far as I know:

Copy of Thai wedding certificate K.R. 3

Copy of wedding register is K.R. 2.

[fvw53]

Mario2008, on 2010-07-31 10:53, said:

QUOTE

That is the reason why you have to wait 30 days for a decision

UNQUOTE

I had to wait 60 days but it was the first time I applied for extension (based on marriage)

[lopburi3]

Currently the normal anticipated wait is 30 days but it can vary depending on availability of committee members to meet and approve applications (as well as getting any missing information from packets).

[Tracechain]

I've got a dumb question. As I previously stated from earlier post, we got our marriage registration certificate in Korea from the Thai Embassy. Also got another piece of paper saying marriage registration. It was a photo copy but had original stamps and signature. I'm used to US Government forms with the form number usually listed in the lower left hand corner. For the life of me, I don't see any kind of K.R. 2 or anything on either of the forms the Thai Embassy gave us. Are there in fact identifying form numbers listed on these forms? If so, wonder what I have?

[Mario2008]

In Thailand the form number would be in the top right corner, the wedding certificate has a number at the back of the certificate.

Yours might be different as it is not issued by an amphur but an embassy. They might have their own forms. Also did you marry at the embassy or did you register your Korean marriage at the embassy? That might make a difference too. But haven't seen any wedding certificate by an embassy, so I don't know.