Work Permit To Race?

[WarpSpeed]

I've been reading some other topics related to work permits in other forums and it seems that based on what I read technically it should be necessary to have a work permit just to compete in racing here in Thailand.

Even if you were not receiving any money for your services or awards it requires you to "exert yourself" which is the vague definition for a required work permit here and if you have any sponsors who foot your racing bill whether or not they gain any value from it then you are advertising for a fee and technically that too is working and requires a work permit.

It all seems to be quite convoluted and there is that entertainment part of the laws that this follows under but that's not applicable to the weekend warrior who lives here and also races as they aren't here just for the entertainment and promotional value of racing but are residents on specific visas.

Don't know what exactly all of that means but it is an ominous possibility for those who participate if they were being a bit too prolific in winning for example and someone knew these laws they could get nasty and grass someone if you think about it..

[WarpSpeed]

Both of your points are valid, and also good reasons why I haven't been racing here myself, especially the second point I've also considered heavily myself as they put on events here with nothing more then a steel gate for crowd control and it's not even effective for that, more like crowd direction. Admittedly, since my arrival here 7 years ago they've improved safety considerably but still far short of western standards where accidents still happen too but at least most reasonable precautions are taken.

There was a race on TV in some city just last year and 2 cars got locked up together and went straight off the end of a fairly long straight and into the crowd as they were braking for a corner and I'm certain some people got injured but couldn't understand the Thai commentary, if they even mentioned it at all? I saw it coming as that corner caught my eye from the beginning for just that reason as it was narrow and tempting for passing after the long straight into a tight braking corner, the other thing that made it bad was that shops were only meters from the edge with no where to escape for spectators and the crowd several rows deep being backed up by buildings, it was a tragedy waiting and it did..

They had tire barriers in front of the crowd fences in that case but you could see them flying into the crowd along with the tire barriers, they just served as heavy missiles once they were impacted so that has been a major concern of mine as I appreciate every fan that comes out to watch and be entertained but not to get injured and I wouldn't want to be a part of that, God forbid a child for example beside my own potential liability which is not usually a part of participation to be concerned with so it's certain that thought would hinder my performance and prevent me from driving flat out if I ever even considered competing in one of those events, anyone who thinks it wouldn't be a factor is just foolish, ignorant or oblivious that gives Thai's the edge for certain.. $hit happens and anyone who doesn't prepare for it or anticipate it is nothing more then a fool and I'm no fool...

I've seen the damage caused by a small touring car, which is heavier then an open wheeler, impact a temporary wall that's at minimum three times the size of the ones used here and snapped it right in half and pushed back several feet from a moderate impact sped around 60Mph about 90Kph, not even a high speed impact, so not even these little walls are going to be much deterrent when they're hit, maybe even more dangerous..

[Crash999]

This is a pretty far-fetched scenario. What's more likely is the person who is losing suddenly benefits from some performance boosts that are somehow overlooked by scrutineers.

As for safety, I've not been to the smaller tracks in Thailand but the Bira circuit is comparable to many circuits in the US with proper gating, barriers, and adequate runoff for the classes of cars that compete on it.

[WarpSpeed]

This is a pretty far-fetched scenario. What's more likely is the person who is losing suddenly benefits from some performance boosts that are somehow overlooked by scrutineers.

As for safety, I've not been to the smaller tracks in Thailand but the Bira circuit is comparable to many circuits in the US with proper gating, barriers, and adequate runoff for the classes of cars that compete on it.

Really? How so? And it was just but one scenario the point is valid about work permit what about that?

Surely you jest regarding Bira safety compared to the U.S. what tracks have you been too?? It's about 20 years behind in safety and in safety training of workers, they never remove the broken down cars from danger zones and just fly the yellow preventing passing on a track already severely limited, besides more potential damage to competitors cars and other cars.

The wall at the end of the front straight into turn 1 is way too low with no safety fence and only about 6 inches thick with numerous structural cracks already and about a 30ft drop off a hill potentially on to spectators and even possibly back onto the track at the bottom, already there has been some very close calls where a car backed into that wall and almost went over it last season.. There is little to no crowd control fencing either, the entire paddock is open to the track with only a 1 meter high wall with no catch fence separating the track from the spectators and crew to stop anyone from entering the track or any flying parts from entering the paddock..

I was at a race there some years ago when a car broke down exiting turn 2 and the flag man was waving both the yellow flag and the pass flag at the same time to other cars as the broken down car was coming to a stop. The course workers never even motioned the driver to move his car as far off the racing line as possible so I did it as he was about to park it right on the track edge when he saw me motion him he moved over close to the wall. While I give credit for some changes over the years and some improvements really the list is endless and they have miles to go before they even come close to western standards and forget the other tracks mentioned they're all death traps if not for drivers for spectators potentially...

[Crash999]

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Really? How so? And it was just but one scenario the point is valid about work permit what about that?

Surely you jest regarding Bira safety compared to the U.S. what tracks have you been too?? It's about 20 years behind in safety and in safety training of workers, they never remove the broken down cars from danger zones and just fly the yellow preventing passing on a track already severely limited, besides more potential damage to competitors cars and other cars.

The wall at the end of the front straight into turn 1 is way too low with no safety fence and only about 6 inches thick with numerous structural cracks already and about a 30ft drop off a hill potentially on to spectators and even possibly back onto the track at the bottom, already there has been some very close calls where a car backed into that wall and almost went over it last season.. There is little to no crowd control fencing either, the entire paddock is open to the track with only a 1 meter high wall with no catch fence separating the track from the spectators and crew to stop anyone from entering the track or any flying parts from entering the paddock..

I was at a race there some years ago when a car broke down exiting turn 2 and the flag man was waving both the yellow flag and the pass flag at the same time to other cars as the broken down car was coming to a stop. The course workers never even motioned the driver to move his car as far off the racing line as possible so I did it as he was about to park it right on the track edge when he saw me motion him he moved over close to the wall. While I give credit for some changes over the years and some improvements really the list is endless and they have miles to go before they even come close to western standards and forget the other tracks mentioned they're all death traps if not for drivers for spectators potentially...

There are dozens, if not hundreds of foreigners who have raced in Thailand over the years- myself included- and I've never heard of anyone having issues due to work permits. If someone was hired by a racing team and was receiving a salary then that would be a different story, but as typical winnings are nothing more than motor oil, energy drinks, and trophies I somehow don't think racing is a big target for the Thai immigration authority. Also most of the folks who get involved in racing have the means and contacts to get out of any potential issue.

I've been to circuits all over the US east coast and I'd say that Bira is comparable to many of a similar length. For example Nelson Ledges (which hosts a 24hr race) has a narrower track and less runoff at the end of the straight. It also has an issue with local wildlife straying onto the track. Hitting a deer at racing speeds is not pretty. Lime Rock's uphill corner has very limited runoff and there have been a couple of cars going off into the woods (not to mention the flaggers have to make a run for it). Very few circuits have cranes to move cars from the circuit and at Lime Rock I've personally been in a situation where I spun off at the same point as a previous car (due to oil on the track) and wound up being collected by another car spinning off behind me. It's up to the flaggers to make a determination of what constitutes a dangerous situation- enough to red flag the race, put out a hazard warnings, yellows, etc.

Having someone stop on the racing line is moronic- this reflects badly on the driver and the race organizers to allow someone in who has such little knowledge of basic safety procedures. I've also seen some other dumb moves like someone practicing a standing start on the straightaway while other cars were still in practice at full speed. Also from what I saw little was taught in regards to how to handle lapping situations, what to do with one's car if there is a mechanical issue, if there is a fire, if someone loses braking, etc. It's up to the race organizers to ensure that safety procedures are followed by drivers and to review safety situations with flaggers.

I'd say that the most dangerous corner for spectators is the first one, but even with full loss of braking power (something I experienced at Bira before due to improperly bled brakes) it's possible to decelerate to a point where the tyres and barrier is strong enough to contain a car. And at the races I've been to I've not seen spectators allowed through the tunnel into the inner part of the circuit.

As a whole I don't think Bira is particularly dangerous. Would like to see improvements made to safety briefings but this isn't an issue of the circuit itself.

[WarpSpeed]

There are dozens, if not hundreds of foreigners who have raced in Thailand over the years- myself included- and I've never heard of anyone having issues due to work permits. If someone was hired by a racing team and was receiving a salary then that would be a different story, but as typical winnings are nothing more than motor oil, energy drinks, and trophies I somehow don't think racing is a big target for the Thai immigration authority. Also most of the folks who get involved in racing have the means and contacts to get out of any potential issue.

So therefore it must not be illegal just because it's never happened that YOU know of? I hate to tell you but ignorance of the law is no excuse in any society and racing without a work permit regardless of what is gained is technically against the law and in the spirit of that law...

I've been to circuits all over the US east coast and I'd say that Bira is comparable to many of a similar length. For example Nelson Ledges (which hosts a 24hr race) has a narrower track and less runoff at the end of the straight. It also has an issue with local wildlife straying onto the track. Hitting a deer at racing speeds is not pretty. Lime Rock's uphill corner has very limited runoff and there have been a couple of cars going off into the woods (not to mention the flaggers have to make a run for it). Very few circuits have cranes to move cars from the circuit and at Lime Rock I've personally been in a situation where I spun off at the same point as a previous car (due to oil on the track) and wound up being collected by another car spinning off behind me. It's up to the flaggers to make a determination of what constitutes a dangerous situation- enough to red flag the race, put out a hazard warnings, yellows, etc.

Part of the problem with your analogy is that there is no tracks of Bira's length in the states that host spectator events only club courses. Secondly those tracks and instances you mention while not uncommon are not in danger zones per se for the driver or the spectators and actually the ones you mention are mostly unused now for spectator events in part due to those deficiencies. Nelson Ledges which is 2 miles long about 4 times longer then Bira?? That is one of the most wide open and safe tracks in the states and in a completely different league as a place like Bira. Just so you know the wall at Bira is only about 6" thick top to bottom where as every racing circuit in the states has a minimum 10" thickness to 12" at the top and 18" to 24" at the bottom and they still get fractured on impacts so it's not even close..

Who said anything about cranes?? Jeeez this ain't Formula 1 you don't need a crane to remove a broken down car, if it's in a dangerous place where it warrants a standing yellow for the remainder of the race it warrants a SC to remove it and let them get on with the race that would also make it more entertaining for the fans by bunching up the group again..

Local wild life you say? Yes back in the states on more then one occasion in twenty four hour races I participated in there has been a wild boar and a 6 foot alligator on the course causing full course cautions and another occasion a deer made his presence known as well as various turtles, rabbits etc.. But to my knowledge neither was a paying human customer nor a cause for concern if one were to get hit (except to those politically correct wildlife advocates), in the case of the boar I seem to recall that at least 2 cars aimed for it as wild boar is fantastic BBQ . Actually quite a few people (not me however) also find gator meat quite enjoyable ...

Having someone stop on the racing line is moronic- this reflects badly on the driver and the race organizers to allow someone in who has such little knowledge of basic safety procedures. I've also seen some other dumb moves like someone practicing a standing start on the straightaway while other cars were still in practice at full speed. Also from what I saw little was taught in regards to how to handle lapping situations, what to do with one's car if there is a mechanical issue, if there is a fire, if someone loses braking, etc. It's up to the race organizers to ensure that safety procedures are followed by drivers and to review safety situations with flaggers.

Clearly and it is seriously lacking though improving..But yes I don't think I've ever seen a driver point another driver past..

I'd say that the most dangerous corner for spectators is the first one, but even with full loss of braking power (something I experienced at Bira before due to improperly bled brakes) it's possible to decelerate to a point where the tyres and barrier is strong enough to contain a car. And at the races I've been to I've not seen spectators allowed through the tunnel into the inner part of the circuit.

Yes they are but most come over the walkover bridge or are shuttled in which is open to all which is also questionable.. Underestimating the need for safety has caused more then enough deaths over the course of racings evolution. They used to let Rally fans stand in the road while the cars were coming too but eventually after several serious accidents they got smart and disallowed that, that old jai yen yen attitude doesn't fly when lives are at stake and there have been more then few cases here already in other racing where a driver has lost control and taken people out and had to barely escape with their life from the rabid crowd. A driver that is competing should not be subjected to that sort of potential liability it's to risky for oil and such as you said and not what competing is supposed to be about..

[WarpSpeed]

As a whole I don't think Bira is particularly dangerous. Would like to see improvements made to safety briefings but this isn't an issue of the circuit itself.

I agree somewhat due to the length it is not all that dangerous I noticed the top speed on some of the faster cars in the super car class only around 100mph down the straight which I used to average through the first turn at Sebring so in that sense it is not as dangerous but there is serious safety deficits and I hope for your sake you're not the one who finds out the hard way.. As a driver it is also our obligation to point them out to officials.. :jap:

[Crash999]

So therefore it must not be illegal just because it's never happened that YOU know of? I hate to tell you but ignorance of the law is no excuse in any society and racing without a work permit regardless of what is gained is technically against the law and in the spirit of that law...

I don't see how it's against the spirit of the law. Drivers are paying out of their own pocket to race on private land and at most receiving a few items of negligible value if they win. Even if it was an international racing series there would not be an issue unless drivers were paid locally.

Part of the problem with your analogy is that there is no tracks of Bira's length in the states that host spectator events only club courses. Secondly those tracks and instances you mention while not uncommon are not in danger zones per se for the driver or the spectators and actually the ones you mention are mostly unused now for spectator events in part due to those deficiencies. Nelson Ledges which is 2 miles long about 4 times longer then Bira?? That is one of the most wide open and safe tracks in the states and in a completely different league as a place like Bira.

Lime Rock is a similar length, has a similar character) and hosts lots of spectator events. There's also precious little runoff in many corners and a couple of notorious corners like the uphill. It's what Bira reminded me of when I first drove on it. As for Nelson Ledges, the track is so narrow in places that when we first drove to the track we drove right past it as we thought it was a go-kart circuit!

As for the height of the walls, it could be low but considering the speed of the cars and the runoff available I don't think it's a major issue. If I thought it was unsafe I wouldn't drive there.

rabbits etc.. But to my knowledge neither was a paying human customer nor a cause for concern if one were to get hit (except to those politically correct wildlife advocates), in the case of the boar I seem to recall that at least 2 cars aimed for it as wild boar is fantastic BBQ . Actually quite a few people (not me however) also find gator meat quite enjoyable ...

I think I'd crap myself if I was on a straight and I saw a deer ahead of me. Where I grew up in the US deer strikes were an issue and there are plenty of cases out fhere of people being killed. Some gory pics out there. They're at the right height where their legs get taken out and the body flies straight into the cabin.

[WarpSpeed]

Well we'll have to agree to disagree then as your characterization of stateside tracks are not accurate and comparing a track with history and ambiance like Lime Rock to Bira borders on blasphemy in the racing world and while it's length is similar it's layout is much more liberal, safer and quicker then Bira.. For example the speed carried down the front straight which is probably twice as long as Bira from the down hill momentum is top gear into turn one braking hard and is nothing like Bira where it is nearly a 1st gear corner, off camber and up hill after coming off of a very slow right hander entering the straight 130mph upwards for a car like the Super cars here where as Bira is only about 100mph if lucky..

Anyhoo it's been nice debating it, back to the OP the reason it is illegal to do without a work permit is that it just is!!! I'm not the one to debate it with the Thai government is the one for that, but it is in any definition a form of working and as such requires a work permit for foreigners in Thailand regardless of the payout, as T/A said, and I can't believe I'm quoting him, even painting ones own house is technically against the law here as a foreigner. If you want to do it (racing)legally you'd have to apply for a work permit under the auspicious of the entertainer exclusion which allows for such purposes but only on a limited basis and that would still provide a work permit...It's a technical loop hole but it does apply sadly enough if anyone wanted to be a real jerk about enforcing it...

[WarpSpeed]

I think I'd crap myself if I was on a straight and I saw a deer ahead of me. Where I grew up in the US deer strikes were an issue and there are plenty of cases out fhere of people being killed. Some gory pics out there. They're at the right height where their legs get taken out and the body flies straight into the cabin.

Actually the gator was most scary as he moved really slowly and felt we were on his turf so not at all intimidated by loud cars or tow trucks and hitting him would be like hitting a tree. The dear just bolted across no worries, but the gator was stubbornly not moving except when he wanted to for short distances so every time you came around he was in a different place but still on track.. We raced for 10 laps with him acting as moving chicane before finally having an SC called out and a tow truck came out and literally bully barred him off the track without hurting him of course.. That's what happens with tracks out in the sticks which so many are and that's one of their endearing qualities is their natural beauty and I wouldn't change a thing about it, I hate these large, modern, sanitized, stadium versions of tracks that are cropping up, they have no ambiance...

[hakku]

Warpy, i dunno about the workpermit thing, but just a few corrections. My car does 180kmh at the end of the straight, thats with 200 hp in a 1050kg car, the "supercars" are way faster and will hit over 200kmh.

what other tracks have you been too in LOS? TCN near nakhon Chaisi, is very safe, massive runoffs, into the rice fields, build as a motorbike circuit, its very technical and a bit mickey m but good fun.

Kanegkrachan is a fantastic track, only slight problem a runoff of around 3 to 5 meters with rock walls on the track outsides, but man what a blast.

Hak

ps, coming weekend (20,21,22) supercar on Bira

[WarpSpeed]

Warpy, i dunno about the workpermit thing, but just a few corrections. My car does 180kmh at the end of the straight, thats with 200 hp in a 1050kg car, the "supercars" are way faster and will hit over 200kmh.

what other tracks have you been too in LOS? TCN near nakhon Chaisi, is very safe, massive runoffs, into the rice fields, build as a motorbike circuit, its very technical and a bit mickey m but good fun.

Kanegkrachan is a fantastic track, only slight problem a runoff of around 3 to 5 meters with rock walls on the track outsides, but man what a blast.

Hak

ps, coming weekend (20,21,22) supercar on Bira

Hak I saw the in car video with the data acquisition super imposed on the screen and I never saw anything close to that speed, I saw 160/180 max for Super cars but that just serves to prove my point that if something were to fail catastrophically a serious accident is waiting to happen at turn 1..

Anyway this is a video of a supposed "veteran champion" driver here and this is why I know I have more to offer. This guy is testing which is the worst time to be lax as there is even less track staff to help in an emergency and he's driving in short sleeves and shorts which should never be allowed if one should be so foolish to do it on their own. He's got quite a few bad habits in his driving too..

Secondly he is way too casual, testing or not, one of the first rules of driving is to always drive like it's an event even during cautions you should drive your line and maintain your focus as that is how you get more consistent. He's one hand steering most of the track actually never even moving his hand from the shift lever to the steering wheel down the entire straight where he should after every shift especially with a front wheel drive car which is powering through the front wheels and can jerk the wheel on up shift through torque steer or any sort of sudden failure which happens in race cars all the time also it makes you drive more smooth and controlled..

He's got way too much wheel spin through several turns as he's missing the skills to know how to avoid that and I'd eat his lunch on the exit of the corner with that carrying much more momentum. For a FWD he's on the power too late in the corners as it should be pulling him through but he applies power like it's a RWD mostly on exit and he brakes too late and doesn't use his tranny to help him slow so he can be on the power sooner, his braking should be done sooner so he can apply power quicker it's easier to scrub off momentum then it is to gain it so doing it as soon as possible and then getting on the power sooner is always the key ..

Like one commenter on his Youtube page mentioned his car is sprung way too stiff as are many I see racing here on a bumpy track, there was a new Porsche here last race I watched from Japan and it was porpoising so badly it was a wonder he could drive it at all and dropping back like he was it was obvious he couldn't.. One better example of a well sprung car is Vuttikorns Porsche and even Nattavudes Toyota is now sprung much better then it used to be and the results for them are beginning to show after years of failures and disappointments..

The VW out there in touring is also sprung way too stiff and it lifts the inside rear tire which is old slow FWD handling set up. He's not doing terribly though so it would be much quicker and easier on both the driver and car if he had a proper set up, tires bouncing or off the ground do not make for good handling nor power application... I've looked at his sway bar set up too and there is a lot of improvement to be made there as well but I'm not making any more observations then that nor giving any more trade secrets though I have quite a few left..

I've seen all the tracks here on TV no need to see them in person as the safety issues jump out but I've been to Bira a few times in person... The track you mentioned has a few safety concerns for cars but at least not for spectators seemingly, so that's a plus anyways and yes it looks a blast as do they all, I've had no issue with that though I'm used to tracks a bit longer I enjoy the shorter busier tracks where things come hard and fast and "racing" is more important then how deep you can put down your right foot...

[hakku]

Warp, here's my inboard from last time. Standing water at the edge coming onto the strait limits top speed to 170 or so. Notice the clutch slipping badly due to leaking rms and oily clutch. bitch of a job to sort.

C U

H

[Crash999]

Well we'll have to agree to disagree then as your characterization of stateside tracks are not accurate and comparing a track with history and ambiance like Lime Rock to Bira borders on blasphemy in the racing world and while it's length is similar it's layout is much more liberal, safer and quicker then Bira.. For example the speed carried down the front straight which is probably twice as long as Bira from the down hill momentum is top gear into turn one braking hard and is nothing like Bira where it is nearly a 1st gear corner, off camber and up hill after coming off of a very slow right hander entering the straight 130mph upwards for a car like the Super cars here where as Bira is only about 100mph if lucky..

Anyhoo it's been nice debating it, back to the OP the reason it is illegal to do without a work permit is that it just is!!! I'm not the one to debate it with the Thai government is the one for that, but it is in any definition a form of working and as such requires a work permit for foreigners in Thailand regardless of the payout, as T/A said, and I can't believe I'm quoting him, even painting ones own house is technically against the law here as a foreigner. If you want to do it (racing)legally you'd have to apply for a work permit under the auspicious of the entertainer exclusion which allows for such purposes but only on a limited basis and that would still provide a work permit...It's a technical loop hole but it does apply sadly enough if anyone wanted to be a real jerk about enforcing it...

We'll have to agree to disagree. Lime Rock has history, and it definitely has character, but there are a lot of drawbacks as well. If you've driven there you know what I am talking about- the eases, the uphill, and diving turn all have very limited runoff and as you mentioned the speeds are faster becasue of the track layout and faster classes run there. In terms of safety, slower speeds are of course not a bad thing.

As for the original subject, painting one's house does not quality as work as one isn't being compensated for it. It's no more a work activity than making one's bed in the morning.

[WarpSpeed]

Yeah I remember this but couldn't find the video sicks to have slipping clutch I just sent you a PM with a tip to take care of that the next time if it ever happens again. give it try it's easy and will get you through a short race like these not perfectly but definitely much better..

That BMW is a hole with his blocking, swerving, he needs a good chrome horn (or in this case plastic one)to straight him out you showed him a lot more tolerance then I would have,fortunately he woke out of his stupor..BTW Hak you've been taking some of my posts personally that are not even directed at you or have been posted in general terms so no need to take them to heart that way and the VW I'm speaking of in my previous post was in the touring car class not this race it is water cooled..

I don't see the disagreement as I've been saying "approximately" 100MPH down the front straight is 10 MPH that much of a difference?

[WarpSpeed]

Well we'll have to agree to disagree then as your characterization of stateside tracks are not accurate and comparing a track with history and ambiance like Lime Rock to Bira borders on blasphemy in the racing world and while it's length is similar it's layout is much more liberal, safer and quicker then Bira.. For example the speed carried down the front straight which is probably twice as long as Bira from the down hill momentum is top gear into turn one braking hard and is nothing like Bira where it is nearly a 1st gear corner, off camber and up hill after coming off of a very slow right hander entering the straight 130mph upwards for a car like the Super cars here where as Bira is only about 100mph if lucky..

Anyhoo it's been nice debating it, back to the OP the reason it is illegal to do without a work permit is that it just is!!! I'm not the one to debate it with the Thai government is the one for that, but it is in any definition a form of working and as such requires a work permit for foreigners in Thailand regardless of the payout, as T/A said, and I can't believe I'm quoting him, even painting ones own house is technically against the law here as a foreigner. If you want to do it (racing)legally you'd have to apply for a work permit under the auspicious of the entertainer exclusion which allows for such purposes but only on a limited basis and that would still provide a work permit...It's a technical loop hole but it does apply sadly enough if anyone wanted to be a real jerk about enforcing it...

We'll have to agree to disagree. Lime Rock has history, and it definitely has character, but there are a lot of drawbacks as well. If you've driven there you know what I am talking about- the eases, the uphill, and diving turn all have very limited runoff and as you mentioned the speeds are faster becasue of the track layout and faster classes run there. In terms of safety, slower speeds are of course not a bad thing.

As for the original subject, painting one's house does not quality as work as one isn't being compensated for it. It's no more a work activity than making one's bed in the morning.

I'm sorry, you need to update your understanding of the work permit laws here, search it here on this site as a quick source, compensation has nothing at all to do with the requirement even volunteering requires a work permit. A farang was just arrested down in Pattaya just for shaking patrons hands in his wife's bar..

Anyway run offs are not the sole measure of a safe track and I would suggest not that big of a safety issue. The up hill is far safer then it used to be in the 80's when cars used to get all fours off the ground coming over the crest the esses are classic have you ever seen Road Atlanta or run it? It's drops dwarf Lime Rock and while doing a 100MPH or more on the down hill through turn 12 without lifting at all and down the front straight there is literally only 4 or 5 feet of run off before a very hard concrete wall and my car taking that flat out was one of the most incredible things one could experience and yes I carried more speed then most and made a ton of passes going into turn 1 and then down through the esses there after a blind crest is unmatched.

How about Road America? The "kink" as its called (even though its far more then that at least 80 degrees) after the carousel that enters the back stretch flat out (in my car approximately 110MPH basically stripped down mostly stock Integra with only suspension mods and shaved DOT approved street legal tires (Honda) for those who aren't familiar) with just the slightest lift to set the car then full throttle, the wall there on both sides is only feet from the track side and it shows by all of the skid marks and scars on the wall, quite intimidating that one but I wouldn't change a thing though little run off it is still quite safe with proper barriers..

I don't want tracks to be sterile or lose their characteristics, it needs to have some thrill, over the years I have and still continue to be one who has protested too many changes as these parts of a given track are what separates the "racers" from the "drivers" and if there is no risk then everyone can do it and it no longer requires special talent or nerve... But there are limits to that too and that's the trick to find the compromise..

BTW I ran under the track record at Road Atlanta my first time there (unfortunately so did 2 other cars ) all the while I was making changes to my car that I was unable to make prior as the parts didn't come in in time with no crew and a terminally ill wife to tend to also (long story). Important parts too both front shocks for example which were also changing my set up constantly, I had only 2 hours sleep in more then 36 hours trying to prepare for that race and traveling 14 hours to get there at 3am and set up my paddock so I could sleep later and then woke up to destruction from a late night twister that hit the track. Few people can conceive the adversity I've worked through to accomplish what I have in racing because they've been lucky never to have had to so they think it's all fabricated but what an imagination I would have to have to do so and those who know me know otherwise.. All of that garbage about making your own luck and similar rubbish is only spouted by those who never really have...

That weekend I was entered in a 1.5hr enduro, a 45 minute pro race, and 2-20 lap regional races and also had all of the practice sessions and qualifying to contend with for all of those races.

Check out this video of the Audi Quattros of the early 80's watch it go over the crest at Lime Rock, Hans Stuck is one of my all time favorite drivers.. You want to see some serious racing and learn some great tips one of which I've been using just as long as they have and it is casually mentioned, check out this entire series..