Dual Citizenship

[professor]

I would like to discuss about Dual Citizenship (DC). DC refers to a person having more than one citizenship. Some countries, like the US and the UK, recognise. Others, like Singapore and Malaysia, don't.

Problems arise when the law of a country doesn't recognise DC, and a citizen acquire a new citizenship overseas, or when a person wants to acquire its citizenship and still keep his original, say US, citizenship. For example, if a US national wants to acquire Singapore citizenship, he must renounce (a legal term meaning to 'give up') his US citizenship first. If the same US national wishes to acquire, say UK citizenship, he needs not renounce his US citizenship, because both US and UK recognise DC.

My questions are:

1) Does Thailand recognise DC? If a person acquires Thai citizenship, must he renounce his original citizenship?

2) If a person has a Thai citizenship, can he acquire a new citizenship and still keep his Thai citizenship?

3) What are the comparative advantages and disadvantages of acquiring Thai citizenship and just keeping a Thai Permanant Residence permit?

4) What are the entitlements to thai citizenshens which the Permanant Residents don't get?

5) What are the requirements to keep a thai permanant residence permit valid after having acquired it? Must a person reside in Thailand for at least 180 days in each year, pay a fee, or what? How long is a permanant residence permire valid for from the day of issue?

[sabaijai]

1) Does Thailand recognise DC? If a person acquires Thai citizenship, must he renounce his original citizenship?

2) If a person has a Thai citizenship, can he acquire a new citizenship and still keep his Thai citizenship?

3) What are the comparative advantages and disadvantages of acquiring Thai citizenship and just keeping a Thai Permanant Residence permit?

4) What are the entitlements to thai citizenshens which the Permanant Residents don't get?

5) What are the requirements to keep a thai permanant residence permit valid after having acquired it? Must a person reside in Thailand for at least 180 days in each year, pay a fee, or what? How long is a permanant residence permire valid for from the day of issue?

1) Yes Thailand accepts DC.

2) I assume so, cf number 1.

3) & 4) Among other rights, Thai citizens can vote in elections and buy real estate. PR requires periodic renewal.

5) Others on the forum probably know these details better than I do. There are some restrictions along the lines you've noted.

[sbk]

Yes, I have been told (and there is a member on this forum who has dual) that thailand accepts dual citizenship. a thai friend of mine has just received australian citizenship as well, got the feeling it's a "don't ask, don't tell" policy for natives but unsure of that. that said, citizenship has requirements, such as, you must have a one year visa for at least 5 years I think. It's easier for women than men, but that is true with the one year visa and PR status as well. Also, PR status requires a one-year non-O visa for at least 3 years continuously. PR status is permanent, but you must check in with the police every 5 years. It is also now fairly expensive, 95,000 baht. and the requirements are pretty tough. Also, not everyone who applies will get it, there is a quota. I am sure thaivisa has the requirements listed on their site, just do a quick search for it.

as for me, I want citizenship because 1) if something happens to my husband I won't be left high and dry, 2) I am getting fed up with dealing with immigration every year (never did get the PR) and their changing requirements and 3) won't it be fun to go to a national park and when they try to charge me 200 baht for an entrance fee, whip out the thai ID card and say, "sorry, thai person, 20 baht"?

[huski]

PR status requires a one-year non-O visa for at least 3 years continuously

one of the requirements is a one year extension of a visa from THAI Immigration for 3 continuous years. just a one year non immigrant O from a thai consulate outside Thailand for 3 years is not the same.

Yes, I have been told (and there is a member on this forum who has dual) that thailand accepts dual citizenship.

my daugher has dual citizenship, born in Thailand from a THAI mother and myself American. i had to register the birth abroad by going to the US Embassy and now she has a American Passport.

[professor]

PR status requires a one-year non-O visa for at least 3 years continuously

one of the requirements is a one year extension of a visa from THAI Immigration for 3 continuous years. just a one year non immigrant O from a thai consulate outside Thailand for 3 years is not the same.

Yes, I have been told (and there is a member on this forum who has dual) that thailand accepts dual citizenship.

my daugher has dual citizenship, born in Thailand from a THAI mother and myself American. i had to register the birth abroad by going to the US Embassy and now she has a American Passport.

Hi Huski,

1) I don't understand the difference. what do u mean by getting the visa extention overseas and in Thai Immigration? Care to elaborate? Under what circumstances do having 3 1-year non-immigration visa in a row don't qualify one to apply for PR?

2) Actually I advise against gettingyr daughter a US citizenship now. 1st reason is she will probably still qualify later if she chooses, by virtue of having a US father. 2nd by having US citizenship, she is liable for US tax, wherever she is.

[sabaijai]

US citizens living abroad - as long as they aren't working for a US company -- qualify for the 'foreign-earned income exclusion' which means that the first US$70,000 per annum they earn is completely exempt from US income tax. Social security tax still applies however.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

1) I don't understand the difference. what do u mean by getting the visa extention overseas and in Thai Immigration? Care to elaborate? Under what circumstances do having 3 1-year non-immigration visa in a row don't qualify one to apply for PR?

To apply for PR you must obtain a Non-Immigrant 'O' visa outside Thailand. You extend that visa 3 times for a year each time at an Immigration office in Thailand.

Each and every time you leave Thailand you need to get a re-entry permit. If you are a regular traveller, get a multiple entry re-entry permit.

[Kringle]

Husky, You say you registered the birth overseas, why? Were you out of Thailand at the time or were you required to register out of Thailand. My little girl was born just last week and we got the Thai birth certificate yesterday and I'm heading to the US Embassy tomorrow to get all the paperwork and translations and I hope process here. Isn't this allowed? Thanks,

[professor]

1) I don't understand the difference. what do u mean by getting the visa extention overseas and in Thai Immigration? Care to elaborate? Under what circumstances do having 3 1-year non-immigration visa in a row don't qualify one to apply for PR?

To apply for PR you must obtain a Non-Immigrant 'O' visa outside Thailand. You extend that visa 3 times for a year each time at an Immigration office in Thailand.

Each and every time you leave Thailand you need to get a re-entry permit. If you are a regular traveller, get a multiple entry re-entry permit.

Dear Dr,

Do I understand you by saying that it is important that:

1) The initial application for the 1st year's VISA must be done outside of Thailand, in a a thai embassy, say, in Australia?

2) The subsequent renewal for the 2nd and 3rd years' VISA must be done inside Thailand, in a Thai Immigration Office?

In other words, what you mean is we cannot, for example, apply for the 1st Year's VISA in Bangkok's Immigration Office, then renew the 2nd and 3rd year VISA in Australia, the reverse way. Is this interpretation correct?

Another question arises. It is known that we need to have 3 years in a row for 1-year VISA in order to apply for Thai PR. However, is it important that the person to remain citizenship for the 3 years? For example, if I was a US national when I applied for 1st 1-year VISA, renew the 1-year VISA in the following year, then, in the mid of 2nd year, I gave up my US citizenship and take an Australian citizenship. Now, when I apply for 3rd year's 1-year VISA, I am applying as an Australian, and assuming I get the VISA indeed. Now, at the end of the three year, I would have accumulated 3 years' VISA in a row, but maybe under different identity to the Thai government. Will the Thai government still recognise that I have met the requirement to apply for PR? Or must my 3 years count start from the 3rd year, when I got the 1-year VISA for the first time as an Australian?

In short, my question is whether a change in citizenship between the 3 years will affect a person.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

1) I don't understand the difference. what do u mean by getting the visa extention overseas and in Thai Immigration? Care to elaborate? Under what circumstances do having 3 1-year non-immigration visa in a row don't qualify one to apply for PR?

To apply for PR you must obtain a Non-Immigrant 'O' visa outside Thailand. You extend that visa 3 times for a year each time at an Immigration office in Thailand.

Each and every time you leave Thailand you need to get a re-entry permit. If you are a regular traveller, get a multiple entry re-entry permit.

Dear Dr,

Do I understand you by saying that it is important that:

1) The initial application for the 1st year's VISA must be done outside of Thailand, in a a thai embassy, say, in Australia?

2) The subsequent renewal for the 2nd and 3rd years' VISA must be done inside Thailand, in a Thai Immigration Office?

In short, my question is whether a change in citizenship between the 3 years will affect a person.

Your interpretation is correct. The first visa can be obtained in Australia from the Thai Embassy in Canberra, or from any Royal Thai Consulate-General there. The renewals must be done in Thailand at an Immigration office.

I don't know at all what the position would be if you changed nationality during that 3 year period. It is so unusual, it seems the regulators didn't envisage any such change. I think it best if you contacted an Immigration officer in Thailand. I believe that such a matter could only be determined on a case by case basis. I'm sorry I cannot help you.

[professor]

Your interpretation is correct. The first visa can be obtained in Australia from the Thai Embassy in Canberra, or from any Royal Thai Consulate-General there. The renewals must be done in Thailand at an Immigration office.

I don't know at all what the position would be if you changed nationality during that 3 year period. It is so unusual, it seems the regulators didn't envisage any such change. I think it best if you contacted an Immigration officer in Thailand. I believe that such a matter could only be determined on a case by case basis. I'm sorry I cannot help you.

Thanks Dr,

One question about Thai citizenship liability. In certain countries like Isreal, Taiwan and Singapore, there are obligations to the government like military service. May I know whether there is any obligations to the Thai government by acquiring Thai citizenship?

A US national's obligation is worldwide tax. No matter where you reside in, you must are liable for US income tax. In a hypothetical case, an American acquire an Isreal citizenship, then work in Singapore, he is liable to:

1) pay tax to Singapore govt for being considered a resident there

2) pay tax to US govt for its obligations as a citizen

3) serve the army in Isreal.

What r the liabilities when one becomes a Thai?

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Military service is a feature of Thai nationality for ...but as I understand it, you are talking of permanent residency, not nationality or citizenship. Citizenship MAY be acquired after a number of years as a PR.

[professor]

Military service is a feature of Thai nationality for ...but as I understand it, you are talking of permanent residency, not nationality or citizenship. Citizenship MAY be acquired after a number of years as a PR.

what are the rules in regards to military service? Does it apply to everyone? or does it not apply to people who have crossed certain age? How long is the term? Is it compulsory? any way to avoid it for farangs like us who become thai citizens?

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Only young people are wanted. Relax... it'll take years if you ever do achieve Thai citizenship.

[alfredgruetzner]

As my Thai wife has DC - Swiss/Thai - I therefore assume that DC in Thailand for most nationals is ok.

[huski]

1) I don't understand the difference. what do u mean by getting the visa extention overseas and in Thai Immigration? Care to elaborate? Under what circumstances do having 3 1-year non-immigration visa in a row don't qualify one to apply for PR?

the one year visa extension is issued in Thailand by Thai Immigration based on a NON IMMIGRANT VISA you aquired outside Thailand. For 3 years the one year extensions are considered a temporary residence and is required for applying for permenant residence.

2) Actually I advise against gettingyr daughter a US citizenship now. 1st reason is she will probably still qualify later if she chooses, by virtue of having a US father. 2nd by having US citizenship, she is liable for US tax, wherever she is.

she was automatically a US Citizen at birth. when you register your child with the US Embassy you will receive a "Consular Report of Birth Abroad of a Citizen of the United States of America" document. also you will receive a Social Security Number Card Application to send.

Husky, You say you registered the birth overseas, why? Were you out of Thailand at the time or were you required to register out of Thailand. My little girl was born just last week and we got the Thai birth certificate yesterday and I'm heading to the US Embassy tomorrow to get all the paperwork and translations and I hope process here. Isn't this allowed? Thanks,

having a US citizen born outside America is considered a "birth abroad". if you want to travel to the US, your child should have a US Passport, you can receive this from the US Embassy in Bangkok. Leaving Thailand show your child's Thai Passport at Immigration.

[samran]

re military service.

All Thai males are liable for military service under the constuition. However, naturalised Thai males are exempted.

All other Thai men have to register for military service when the are 17 or there abouts and are required to report for conscription the following year, or if they are university student, when they have graduated. If conscripted, they have to serve 2 years in the Thai military. Conscriptions only occur if there are not enough volunteers for that district. Conscription is done by randomly choosing red balls out of a hat at the conscription office. Those who randomly pick a black ball are released from military obligation. Universtity graduates who volunteer only have to serve 6 months in the military.

Males who undertook cadets for 3 years while at high school are deemed to be released from military obligations.

All males under 30 who report for military service potentially can be conscripted to active duty. After 30 years of age, males who report will automatically be put into the reserve forces. Army Reserve members are not required to serve any active duty, but like all reserves, are liable to be re-activated if called upon. This rarely, if ever happens.

This last rule is seem to be designed for overseas thai born or thais residing overseas, as long as you are unable to attend military conscription days in april (because you were overseas), then as long as you don't register yourself in Thailand until you are 30, then you are safe from conscription. Post 30, then if you report yourself, and you will be released and made an army reserve member.

For those who are interested, on the Thai consutlate web site in LA, there is a PDF document in thai outlining the proceedures.

[sbk]

I was under the impression they were no longer conscripting, that volunteers were enough now. perhaps I am misremembering some news report?

[samran]

they still do conscript, but many districts, get their full quota thru volunteers most years.

A friend of mine last year got out of it pretty easily. He hung around the conscription office all day while people shuffled in to volunteer. The second they had enough people he strolled up and reported himself and was given an exemption certificate.

[sbk]

very clever! I will tell some young thai guys i know about that trick!

also, some info, the foreign earned income tax exemption for the US is $75,000 now but you have to be out of the country for more than 330 days (? something like that) and declare another country your tax home.

also, this post was about acquiring dc, presumably as an older person. As long as your country allows you to have dual I see no real minuses and lots of pluses to having dual. The forum member I mentioned acquired thai nationality on top of a US passport (without either parent being thai) something I am attempting to do once I find someone at the police station who knows how to do it!

There is no need to worry about your dual citizen child having to worry just yet about paying income tax in the US. if you wanted to take her/him home, they will need a US passport (or whatever country you are from) unless you think its great fun applying for a visa!

[professor]

1) I don't understand the difference. what do u mean by getting the visa extention overseas and in Thai Immigration? Care to elaborate? Under what circumstances do having 3 1-year non-immigration visa in a row don't qualify one to apply for PR?

the one year visa extension is issued in Thailand by Thai Immigration based on a NON IMMIGRANT VISA you aquired outside Thailand. For 3 years the one year extensions are considered a temporary residence and is required for applying for permenant residence.

2) Actually I advise against gettingyr daughter a US citizenship now. 1st reason is she will probably still qualify later if she chooses, by virtue of having a US father. 2nd by having US citizenship, she is liable for US tax, wherever she is.

she was automatically a US Citizen at birth. when you register your child with the US Embassy you will receive a "Consular Report of Birth Abroad of a Citizen of the United States of America" document. also you will receive a Social Security Number Card Application to send.

Husky, You say you registered the birth overseas, why? Were you out of Thailand at the time or were you required to register out of Thailand. My little girl was born just last week and we got the Thai birth certificate yesterday and I'm heading to the US Embassy tomorrow to get all the paperwork and translations and I hope process here. Isn't this allowed? Thanks,

having a US citizen born outside America is considered a "birth abroad". if you want to travel to the US, your child should have a US Passport, you can receive this from the US Embassy in Bangkok. Leaving Thailand show your child's Thai Passport at Immigration.

Dear Huski,

Are you able to find out whether the 3 years would need to be re-counted from day 1 if a person changes nationality in between?

For example, he was an American applying for a 1-year VISA to teach English in Thailand. He got the VISA, and extended it for another 1 year for his 2nd Year. During Year 2, he renounces his US citizenship and got an Australian citizenship.

Questions:

1) Does the VISA becomes invalid when he renounces his citizenship with which he used to apply for a VISA? He would be without an US passport, so the Thai VISA which states that he is an American might be invalid. Is it so?

2) Must he reapply for another VISA upon change of citizenship? Or is just informing the Thai Immigration of his change of citizenship enough?

3) Will he need to count his 3 years' VISA from Day 1 he became an Australian? Or would his VISA during his being a US national previously count also?

[Kringle]

Thanks Huski, The info on registration of birth at the US embassy was what I expected. The only reason for getting a passport and social security now is that it will calm my other half that she (our daughter) will also be American. We're not leaving any time soon but it just worries her. Do you know of a better place to get the translations done than the place that's by the US embassy. When I got my translation done there for the marriage, the price went up and up. Just one other thing, how does someone start a new thread? I know it's probably DUH, but I haven't figured it out yet!

[dr_Pat_Pong]

re military service.

An extremely well explained posting. Thank you Samran. It cleared up some of my idea's about the way it works.

[huski]

Thanks Huski, The info on registration of birth at the US embassy was what I expected. The only reason for getting a passport and social security now is that it will calm my other half that she (our daughter) will also be American.

you daughter became American at birth. its just reporting the birth to your US Embassy, then she can receive her US Passport.

how does someone start a new thread?

click on the top or bottom "NEW TOPIC" button

3) Will he need to count his 3 years' VISA from Day 1 he became an Australian? Or would his VISA during his being a US national previously count also?

that is up to the immigration officer, maybe bring in the johnny walker black for that one.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

3) Will he need to count his 3 years' VISA from Day 1 he became an Australian? Or would his VISA during his being a US national previously count also?

that is up to the immigration officer, maybe bring in the johnny walker black for that one.

This hasn't been envisioned by the Thai regulations at all. I told the good Professor he'd need to go talk to Immigration, as you did Huski. They won't take him too seriously until he arrives here on the appropriate visa. I think it might take more than one bottle of Nam Dum too.

[rubl]

DC varies per country. In the Netherlands they make you choose when you are 18 years old. With European Community growing this is under discussion and may change eventually.

My son born in 1997 in BKK out of Thai mother and dutch father got his Netherlands pasport easely even without being formally married. Main thing the embassy pointed out was: Make sure your name is on the Thai birthcertificate as BOTH father and registar (i.e. the one who comes to the amphur to register the child). This is seen as implicit recognision.

[professor]

3) Will he need to count his 3 years' VISA from Day 1 he became an Australian? Or would his VISA during his being a US national previously count also?

that is up to the immigration officer, maybe bring in the johnny walker black for that one.

This hasn't been envisioned by the Thai regulations at all. I told the good Professor he'd need to go talk to Immigration, as you did Huski. They won't take him too seriously until he arrives here on the appropriate visa. I think it might take more than one bottle of Nam Dum too.

i m wondering the extent to which 'bribe' or small gestures of appreciation that r subjective can be used, and should be used. how do u guys buy favour without making things difficult for officials, in a neat and nice way?

[dr_Pat_Pong]

They'll let you know fast. Don't go to Soi Suan Plu until you got a Non-Immigrant visa from abroad.

[sbxabyss]

I was born in Thailand to a Thai mother and an American father. I lived the first year of my life in Thailand and spent the rest of my life in America. This year was first time that I've gone back to Thailand in 27 years and since March, I've made 2 more trips this year. I have an American passport but was wondering if I'm automatically a Thai citizen since i was born in Thailand.

If not, how do I obtain dual citizenship. Fortunately, I believe I'm past the age of Thai military service. My mother has property in Thailand as well, since i am her only son, am i entitled to this if she has allocated it to me in her will or does Thailand forbid me from owning property?

I hope to get answers to these questions or led along the right path since I look to buy a house in there in the near future.

Thanks in advance for anyone who can provide useful information. Greatly appreciated.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

And Professor, that three consecutive years of extensions only entitles you to apply for Thai residence. It isn't a simple process, and is anything but automatic. The Thai citizenship is likely to elude you too. You need to show some strong attachment over years to Thailand.