Retirement Visa Confusion

[Farang-Kha]

However, bottom line, everyone has to make their own risk reward decisions about such issues. No guarantees.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Very good advice. The "grey" areas in Thailand offer many opportunities that aren't available in "black and white" situations more common in the west. It reminds me of the debate about how safe it is to take the company route for land purchase (on the Koh Samui sub-forum); when I raised that issue with a very well-placed and experienced adviser, his advice was "If you're the type of guy who is totally risk adverse, then maybe Thailand is not for you".

It seems clear that the overwhelming majority of the people who engage in a bit of discreet activity (and probably all the sensible ones) have no problem at all. I do get the sense sometimes that Thailand actually likes it like this - and hence the annual renewal process to allow discretion.

There's a school of thought that says "don't tie up any more in Thailand than you can afford to walk away from". My take is that that's bordering on the paranoid, but I think it's not a bad principle to have tucked away at the back of one's mind (but way at the back).

I think it's clear from the informed posts so far that there isn't a clear-cut (black and white) rule that applies here - and who wants to be the test case that provides one? The middle way works - leave it at that and stop looking for absolute guarantees. With all due respect to the OP, it starts to feel a bit like wanting to have one's cake and eat it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thank you for this. Again - as with all the other respondents - it makes good common sense. I'm not sure who (or what) 'the OP' is - but if it's me (as the starter of this thread), I'd just like to say - no, I don't think that's quite the case. It's really more a case of 'knowing thine enemy'. or "Look before you leap?"

[Farang-Kha]

It looks as though we've pretty well exhausted all the avenues on this now, and it seems to me that there is no definitive answer to what I asked. I'm perfectly happy with that, and really expected no more. Everyone's been most helpful.

What I'd like to say - as a new member here - is a big 'thank you' for the incredibly helpful and courteous manner in which so many of you have come forward to contribute to the discussion. I have to say I am delighted with the good common-sense and pragmatism , and mature responses displayed throughout.

I hope I will be able to bring some of my own experience to the forum (once I've earned it). It seems to be a wonderful place for advice and guidance. Thank you!

[ZZZ]

If this is giving you second thoughts about coming to Thailand you may (or more likely may not) want to know that work do not have to be paid to be classified as work. Its work if you do something a Thai could have done and this is illegal without a work permit.

By this definition you would technically not be allowed to do your own laundry, driving a car, painting your house e.g.

There are cases where farang bar owners, without work permit, have been booked by the police because they served a drink, changed a light bulb or was simply sitting outside the bar and talked to customers.

The bar owner business is a bit of a special case but you get the drift. In your case you should not have any problems at all and all this uncertainty is all part of the charm of Thailand, never a dull moment.

[Farang-Kha]

If this is giving you second thoughts about coming to Thailand you may (or more likely may not) want to know that work do not have to be paid to be classified as work. Its work if you do something a Thai could have done and this is illegal without a work permit.

By this definition you would technically not be allowed to do your own laundry, driving a car, painting your house e.g.

There are cases where farang bar owners, without work permit, have been booked by the police because they served a drink, changed a light bulb or was simply sitting outside the bar and talked to customers.

The bar owner business is a bit of a special case but you get the drift. In your case you should not have any problems at all and all this uncertainty is all part of the charm of Thailand, never a dull moment.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thank you ZZZ. Yes - I altready was aware of that, and no - it hasn't changed my thoughts about coming to Thailand at all. I did not have any preconceived notions about that aspect at all, so the question was a genuine 'what if'. Based on the answers (which have been very helpful), I'm now pretty sure I know which way I'll handle things one way or the other, and I'm pretty sure I won't be telling anyone which way that is....

[Steve2UK]

However, bottom line, everyone has to make their own risk reward decisions about such issues. No guarantees.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Very good advice. The "grey" areas in Thailand offer many opportunities that aren't available in "black and white" situations more common in the west. It reminds me of the debate about how safe it is to take the company route for land purchase (on the Koh Samui sub-forum); when I raised that issue with a very well-placed and experienced adviser, his advice was "If you're the type of guy who is totally risk adverse, then maybe Thailand is not for you".

It seems clear that the overwhelming majority of the people who engage in a bit of discreet activity (and probably all the sensible ones) have no problem at all. I do get the sense sometimes that Thailand actually likes it like this - and hence the annual renewal process to allow discretion.

There's a school of thought that says "don't tie up any more in Thailand than you can afford to walk away from". My take is that that's bordering on the paranoid, but I think it's not a bad principle to have tucked away at the back of one's mind (but way at the back).

I think it's clear from the informed posts so far that there isn't a clear-cut (black and white) rule that applies here - and who wants to be the test case that provides one? The middle way works - leave it at that and stop looking for absolute guarantees. With all due respect to the OP, it starts to feel a bit like wanting to have one's cake and eat it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thank you for this. Again - as with all the other respondents - it makes good common sense. I'm not sure who (or what) 'the OP' is - but if it's me (as the starter of this thread), I'd just like to say - no, I don't think that's quite the case. It's really more a case of 'knowing thine enemy'. or "Look before you leap?"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

OP = Original Poster. I wasn't trying to have a dig at you, particularly as I well remember my first feelings when trying to understand what's "on" and what's not in Thailand (and I'm still learning) - and I think everyone goes through that process. But, anyhow, I get the impression from your later posts that you've now got a good feel for how things are likely to work in practice. "Look before you leap" is always a good idea - but sometimes we just have to trust that our parachute will open...........

[sabaijai]

Farang-kha, one thing you'll have to learn to live with in Thailand is ambiguity, lots of it.

The legal code here is very fuzzy and in many cases, such as this, there is no clear answer. I have a Thai friend I've known nearly 25 years now, who is a practicing attorney and who teaches law at Thammasat. He tells me there are many, many (perhaps hundreds of) contradictory laws on the books here, mainly as a result of the many different constitutions upon which laws have been passed. When a new constitution comes in, as it did in 1997, most of the old laws, based on the old earlier constitution(s) remain unchanged. Immigration law is no exception.

So to Steve's caution that Thailand isn't for the risk-adverse, I would add that it may not be for those who need absolute legal clarification. That's not to discourage you from asking of course, nor to discourage you from retiring here, but you might want to take a 'trial' retirement here for a year or two to see how you handle it.

Somewhere I've heard a proverb along the lines of 'A sign of a superior mind is being able to hold two contradictory ideas in the mind at the same time, and not be frustrated.'

[Steve2UK]

Somewhere I've heard a proverb along the lines of 'A sign of a superior mind is being able to hold two contradictory ideas in the mind at the same time, and not be frustrated.'

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I always thought I had a defect because I do that. Nice to know that I may actually be superior

[patsfangr]

Somewhere I've heard a proverb along the lines of 'A sign of a superior mind is being able to hold two contradictory ideas in the mind at the same time, and not be frustrated.'

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I always thought I had a defect because I do that. Nice to know that I may actually be superior

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I thought that was the definition of marriage!

As to the core of this thread, I have some uncertainty of my own. I will be retired when my (Thai) wife and I move to LOS. We will be able to purchase a house and car, and all other incidentals required to be comfortable. I expect my retirement income to be enough to live reasonably well.

However, I am fortunate enough to still be reasonably healthy, and mentally alert. (Although my wife has questioned the latter throughout our 32 years of marriage!) My wife is constantly dreaming up various business ventures she'd like to embark upon in Thailand. So I am torn over the type of visa for which I should apply.

I won't have to work, and don't necessarily want to, at this point. But, as I understand it, I'm permanently barred from it with a Retirement Visa if I should get the urge to "do something" once I'm settled in.

Have any of you faced a similar situation in your relocation experience? What would you advise, with regard to a visa type to pursue?

GR

[Steve2UK]

So I am torn over the type of visa for which I should apply.

I won't have to work, and don't necessarily want to, at this point. But, as I understand it, I'm permanently barred from it with a Retirement Visa if I should get the urge to "do something" once I'm settled in.

Have any of you faced a similar situation in your relocation experience? What would you advise, with regard to a visa type to pursue?

GR

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm not actually there yet, but my situation (minus wife) is similar. I've been advised that it's no problem to switch from one type of visa to another - always assuming that you meet the qualifications for another type of visa. On that basis, the O-A retirement visa is not actually "permanent" as such - any more than is any other class of visa..

[patsfangr]

So I am torn over the type of visa for which I should apply.

I won't have to work, and don't necessarily want to, at this point. But, as I understand it, I'm permanently barred from it with a Retirement Visa if I should get the urge to "do something" once I'm settled in.

Have any of you faced a similar situation in your relocation experience? What would you advise, with regard to a visa type to pursue?

GR

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm not actually there yet, but my situation (minus wife) is similar. I've been advised that it's no problem to switch from one type of visa to another - always assuming that you meet the qualifications for another type of visa. On that basis, the O-A retirement visa is not actually "permanent" as such - any more than is any other class of visa..

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

In which case, it would seem that the retirement visa would be the way to go initially, right? As I understand it, it is easy to get from the Thai Consulate here in the US, and it is good for a year at a time, with easy renewal, not requiring leaving LOS to do so. Am I correct in all of that, guys?

GR

[Thaiquila]

Pat, IF you think there is a very high probability you will be starting a business in Thailand within your first year there, you could go with a different kind of O visa. You would need a letter from a company to the effect that you are exploring business options. I think (others can verify) that you would need to make visa runs every 3 months.

If you did this for a year and you then decide not to open a business, you could then apply for the retirement type extension in Thailand, which would be for one year, no visa runs.

[patsfangr]

Pat, IF you think there is a very high probability you will be starting a business in Thailand within your first year there, you could go with a different kind of O visa. You would need a letter from a company to the effect that you are exploring business options. I think (others can verify) that you would need to make visa runs every 3 months.

If you did this for a year and you then decide not to open a business, you could then apply for the retirement type extension in Thailand, which would be for one year, no visa runs.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks, Thaiquila. But I don't anticipate opening a business that soon after arrival. Even so, wouldn't the opposite be the easier way to go? I mean, enter on a retirement visa, with NO visa run requirements for a year. Then, if we DO decide to open some sort of business, change the visa at that time?

GR

[Thaiquila]

I have heard before that there can be some annoyance from immigration for changing from retirement to business visa. I don't know if that is really the case, but the "logic" would be once retired, you are finished working. So going from a B to retirement is the more traditional path. I only mentioned it if you were really likely to start the business. I don't really think you will have a problem changing if you want.

[patsfangr]

I have heard before that there can be some annoyance from immigration for changing from retirement to business visa. I don't know if that is really the case, but the "logic" would be once retired, you are finished working. So going from a B to retirement is the more traditional path. I only mentioned it if you were really likely to start the business. I don't really think you will have a problem changing if you want.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, the "logic" is right on the surface. But I think the reality is often the reverse, right? I'm not talking about Thailand here, just in general. I think a lot of guys who retire, and still have their health, find that they want to find some sort of work that will keep them busy, at least on a part time basis. Otherwise, the wife finds things to keep you busy, and those are NEVER the things you want to do.

GR

[lopburi3]

In this case the poster has a Thai wife so would not need a B visa in any case. He can work just as well on an O visa.

The process for changing is an extra stamp in your passport saying you changed. And if done from support Thai wife to Retirement requires a note, written at immigration, from your wife that she understands what you are doing.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Somewhere I've heard a proverb along the lines of 'A sign of a superior mind is being able to hold two contradictory ideas in the mind at the same time, and not be frustrated.'

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I always thought I had a defect because I do that. Nice to know that I may actually be superior

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I thought that was the definition of marriage!

As to the core of this thread, I have some uncertainty of my own. I will be retired when my (Thai) wife and I move to LOS. We will be able to purchase a house and car, and all other incidentals required to be comfortable. I expect my retirement income to be enough to live reasonably well.

However, I am fortunate enough to still be reasonably healthy, and mentally alert. (Although my wife has questioned the latter throughout our 32 years of marriage!) My wife is constantly dreaming up various business ventures she'd like to embark upon in Thailand. So I am torn over the type of visa for which I should apply.

I won't have to work, and don't necessarily want to, at this point. But, as I understand it, I'm permanently barred from it with a Retirement Visa if I should get the urge to "do something" once I'm settled in.

Have any of you faced a similar situation in your relocation experience? What would you advise, with regard to a visa type to pursue?

GR

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Only get an O visa NOT an O-A. Being married to a Thai you can get a work permit on an O visa. The O-A is for retirement and work is not permitted. With a retirement visa your income/saving requirement doubles.

[patsfangr]

Somewhere I've heard a proverb along the lines of 'A sign of a superior mind is being able to hold two contradictory ideas in the mind at the same time, and not be frustrated.'

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I always thought I had a defect because I do that. Nice to know that I may actually be superior

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I thought that was the definition of marriage!

As to the core of this thread, I have some uncertainty of my own. I will be retired when my (Thai) wife and I move to LOS. We will be able to purchase a house and car, and all other incidentals required to be comfortable. I expect my retirement income to be enough to live reasonably well.

However, I am fortunate enough to still be reasonably healthy, and mentally alert. (Although my wife has questioned the latter throughout our 32 years of marriage!) My wife is constantly dreaming up various business ventures she'd like to embark upon in Thailand. So I am torn over the type of visa for which I should apply.

I won't have to work, and don't necessarily want to, at this point. But, as I understand it, I'm permanently barred from it with a Retirement Visa if I should get the urge to "do something" once I'm settled in.

Have any of you faced a similar situation in your relocation experience? What would you advise, with regard to a visa type to pursue?

GR

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Only get an O visa NOT an O-A. Being married to a Thai you can get a work permit on an O visa. The O-A is for retirement and work is not permitted. With a retirement visa your income/saving requirement doubles.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But the 'O' is the one that requires going out of the country every 3 months, isn't it? I really don't want to have to do that.

[TokyoT]

Only get an O visa NOT an O-A. Being married to a Thai you can get a work permit on an O visa. The O-A is for retirement and work is not permitted. With a retirement visa your income/saving requirement doubles.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But the 'O' is the one that requires going out of the country every 3 months, isn't it? I really don't want to have to do that.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You can get an “O” based upon being married to a Thai for various lengths, and number of entries. But you can get a non-immigrant “O” extended for one year with 400,000 baht in a Thai Bank transferred in from outside Thailand.

As the good Dr. points out the requirements for an "O" based upon marrage are actually lower than a retirement visa, and you have more flexibility over the long run (with the exception that you need to stay married).

[TokyoT]

Removed double post.

Edited July 12, 2005 by TokyoT

[lopburi3]

The O visa 90 day stay can be extended on a yearly basis for support of Thai wife with 400k in a local bank account.

[patsfangr]

Only get an O visa NOT an O-A. Being married to a Thai you can get a work permit on an O visa. The O-A is for retirement and work is not permitted. With a retirement visa your income/saving requirement doubles.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But the 'O' is the one that requires going out of the country every 3 months, isn't it? I really don't want to have to do that.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You can get an “O” based upon being married to a Thai for various lengths, and number of entries. But you can get a non-immigrant “O” extended for one year with 400,000 baht in a Thai Bank transferred in from outside Thailand.

As the good Dr. points out the requirements for an "O" based upon marrage are actually lower than a retirement visa, and you have more flexibility over the long run (with the exception that you need to stay married).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks, TT! Does the "O" have an option that completely eliminates the need to leave the country for renewal, as well as a relatively "hassle free" process for renewal; i.e., without a trip to BKK for US Embassy and/or Thai Immigration visits?If so, that would, indeed, seem to be the best option, since it would allow me to apply for a WP, if the need arose. The need to leave the country is the element of renewal that I REALLY want to avoid. But, of course, I want to have the flexibility to do so and return without a problem also, should we vacation elsewhere. Any concerns on that for me to consider?

GR

[expatinasia]

patsfangr,

The "non-imm O" visa (commonly referred to as a "retirement" visa) is for one-year, renewable annually. Renewing it is as easy as pie, and you don't need to leave the country to renew. However, you need to report your home address every 90 days.

[expatinasia]

farang-kha,

"there is no definitive answer to what I asked"

Yes there is. Unfortunately, like most of us, you like to split hairs, you like to consider endless "what-ifs", and you like to pick nits.

There is a difference between "the law" and "enforcing the law". You referred to the discrepancy as "legal ambiguity", but nothing could be further from the truth.

Without a work permit, you can not do work in any capacity - even the volunteers assisting Thailand following the Boxing Day tsunami were forced to get work permits - that is as definitive as you can get. If you do any work without a work permit, you are subject to a fine and deportation.

The "enforcement" of the law can be spotty, allowing people to work - however, illegally. Could this lack of enforcement possibly allow you to sell on eBay? Sure. Perhaps even code a line or two of software? Of course. You might think you are home free and, after one too many gin and tonics, blurt out what you're doing...only to be visited by someone from the police department.

[patsfangr]

patsfangr,

The "non-imm O" visa (commonly referred to as a "retirement" visa) is for one-year, renewable annually.  Renewing it is as easy as pie, and you don't need to leave the country to renew.  However, you need to report your home address every 90 days.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks, Expat! Looks like the "non-imm O" is the way to go. We have to go up to the Thai Consulate in LA next week to renew my wife's passport. I'll verify my plan with them, and make sure that I have all the right forms and requirements to prepare for it next year.

Next step is my wife's house hunting trip in a couple of weeks! I can almost smell the durien now ... make that the jasmine!

GR

[seeker108]

Only get an O visa NOT an O-A. Being married to a Thai you can get a work permit on an O visa. The O-A is for retirement and work is not permitted. With a retirement visa your income/saving requirement doubles.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But the 'O' is the one that requires going out of the country every 3 months, isn't it? I really don't want to have to do that.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You can get an “O” based upon being married to a Thai for various lengths, and number of entries. But you can get a non-immigrant “O” extended for one year with 400,000 baht in a Thai Bank transferred in from outside Thailand.

As the good Dr. points out the requirements for an "O" based upon marrage are actually lower than a retirement visa, and you have more flexibility over the long run (with the exception that you need to stay married).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If not married to Thai, what other requirements are there for getting a 1 yr extention (without the need for 90 day visa runs) to an O visa other than B 400,000 in the bank.

Must be some other catches or why would anyone get the O-A that requires B 800,000 in the bank and does not permit you to work.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

The 400,000 only applies if you are legally married to a Thai, or caring for your Thai child.

[Farang-Kha]

farang-kha,

"there is no definitive answer to what I asked"

Yes there is.  Unfortunately, like most of us, you like to split hairs, you like to consider endless "what-ifs", and you like to pick nits.

There is a difference between "the law" and "enforcing the law".  You referred to the discrepancy as "legal ambiguity", but nothing could be further from the truth.

Without a work permit, you can not do work in any capacity - even the volunteers assisting Thailand following the Boxing Day tsunami were forced to get work permits - that is as definitive as you can get.  If you do any work without a work permit, you are subject to a fine and deportation.

The "enforcement" of the law can be spotty, allowing people to work - however, illegally.  Could this lack of enforcement possibly allow you to sell on eBay?  Sure.  Perhaps even code a line or two of software?  Of course.  You might think you are home free and, after one too many gin and tonics, blurt out what you're doing...only to be visited by someone from the police department.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi Patinasia,

Thank you for taking the time to comment.

You're probably right - I'd rather pick nits at MY leisure than the sort that I might find in the Bangkok Hilton !

While you seem certain of what the law is, not everyone else seems so clear - I was actually questioning the advice of a Thai lawyer in Bangkok. What I did not say (and maybe I should have) in my original post, was that when I wrote to the lawyer, I suggested that I could alternatively come to Thailand (instead) on an Investment Visa. His advice was that "a Retirement Visa was the best option in my circumstances - without doubt". It was his suggestion - not mine - that "working behind a screen is OK". Yes - I doubted the accuracy of his advice, since it flew in the face of everything I had read before. Is it unwise to question advice that might be unsound?

FYI - I did not refer to the discrepancy as 'legal ambiguity'. It was a term coined in a reply to me, and one I had not come across before, and it rather amused me....

Yes - I was aware thet the aid workers needed employment visas. No comment required on that one, I'm sure ...........................