Established Residential Area Changed Overnight To A Commercial Area

[jaidee]

I purchased a condo 11 years ago in Pratunam Grand Diamond. The project consisted of an Hotel Tower A and residential area, condominiums at Tower B.

Today the G/F to 7/F area is being transformed to a commercial area. 50 % of Parking space is being changed to a Shopping Mall and the 8/F Common area at Tower B is being transformed as public Office !

Can Petchboonma Company limited, owned by the Chaiyapatranun family and the owner of the Hotel at Tower A and the initial Grand Diamond Building company change the area from residential to commercial without consent and value for it’s residents condominium owners ?

Can he take away a labeled common area as his own office property although on purchase it was clearly labeled as common area ?

Hidden upon purchase but claiming today he is the rightful owner of this common area?

Letters to the juristic department, which is a puppet from Petboonma, and to Petboonma Company limited remained unanswered. FYI Juristic Department management is also on Petboonma’s payroll.

How can we condominium owners, get justice and proceed economically to ensure legality and common sense prevails so that our properties are not transformed to a commercial area against our will and how can we get back our common area ? How can we recover, once the mall is established , our financial loses due to reduced condominium value, property degradation and damage, environment degradation, and increased security treat as a result of a Shopping mall at the transformed parking area.

It has to be noted also that residents, as per condominium act are not allowed to, install any commercial activity at their residence. Furthermore, residents also are not allowed to have their ordered meals delivered at their doorstep, for security concern. Petchboonma Company Limited seems to be exempt from this rules as he invites openly the public to enter to visit his office at our residential private building !

How can we get justice ?

[123ace]

This really should not be hard to tackle.

As it appears that control has been lost to the developer and you are being treated as tenants rather than owners, I suggets that you seek external professional advice from a recognised managing agent or a lawyer.

The condo act, Juristic person responsibilites etc are legally manadted and with appropriate pressure you should be able to overturn what is happeneing. It may be possible if you have enough support from other owners to call for an EGM (not and AGM) and then vote for what the majority want. i.e chaning teh managing company or the juristice person etc.

Do you have annual AGM meetings? if so, what happens??

First step - analyse the ratio of sold vs un-sold units and determine the developers voting strength vs co-oweners.

[jaidee]

As Hotel owner, Petboonma Co Ltd has automatically 33% of the votes Tower A (Hotel). Furthermore he and some of his staff owns also condo's at tower B and an nbr of condo's, unknown to us, is unsold. Therefor, Petboonma can reach a 50% of the votes based on AREA ownership. It is not one mean one vote that's being promoted, for it's own benefit, by Juristic department.

But even then, I strongly believe that,

1. You cannot change overnight a residential to a commercial area by transforming more than 50 % of the parking space in a shopping mall because the property developper would like to see his profits increase. (on the back of the condominium owners).

2. You cannot change what was originally announced, advertised and planned as common area at building B, by claiming later on that it is the property development property.

On both counts, regardless, there is clearly without a shadow of a doubt serious inconveniences and financial ramifications for the residents opposed to property developper Petboona Co Ltd., for it's ONLY and sole financial greed , plans without a SINGLE benefit to it's condominium owners.

[trogers]

This is the reason I give mixed developments (part commercial and part residential) a wide berth.

[eljeque]

This is also the reason many people will simply not buy here, not a house in a company name, and not a condo in their own name.

Even if it is in your own name, the rules are always changing.

I wish you the best of luck with outside legal advice.

You could own beachfront property and then someone will fill in the seashore and make new land and build new condo building there.

No rules are followed.

[123ace]

Jaidee, the law is on your side but you need to take step back and see how many allies you have amongst other co-owners and then discuss the way forward collectively. On your own you will not succeed as you are a small fish fighting a big fish etc.

For the car park issue, try and find out if the car park was titled as common property. If so, then the developer can't change its use, however if the developer retaiend the car park as his property then you don't have a leg to stand on. Start coldly checking the facts and drop the emotions on each of these issues.

Act quick on this or you will miss the momentum to reslove it. You will find little help on this forum and I urge you to contact a property mgt company and pay for advice asap.

[ripley]

Read the New Condominium Act carefully - especially the section on AGMs You can find it on this forum or buy your own copy at most bookstores. There are some things which might answer your questions about your rights and options. I seem to recall a clause that limits the per square meter voting power of people who own a large number of units. Change in structure or purpose of Common Areas is one of the issues that requires a certain percentage of ALL the co-owners, not just those attending the AGM.

Were you given a brochure describing your building? Also your ownership deed should include a drawing of the building which delineates Common Property Areas.The New Thai Condo Act states clearly that brochures and written promotional copy carry the same weight as a contract.

I think that the quickest and cheapest way to handle your situation is to write to the Land Office (the letter must be in Thai). Include copies of any relevant documentation (pictures, written descriptions, etc.) They may sort it out for you. If so, it's a better option than attempting to rouse the co-owners, etc.

.

[jaidee]

In this regard, I need legal assistance speaking Thai to visit the police station with me to respond to a "property destruction claim" from the developper( posters I removed from the developper).

Any suggestions ?

[ripley]

Oboy... the police take an extremely dim view of direct action such as yours. The police will tell you firmly that such things are to managed by your committee & the proprietor and are none of your business - full stop! You most definitely need a lawyer to come to the police station with you, otherwise there could be a charge registered against you. Even taking down a sign & putting it carefully to one side can be considered "destruction of property".

The upside is that a lawyer can mediate for you w/ your opponent & the police, explain that you didn't realize you were breaking any laws and apologize. Khun Visal, whose office is across from City Hall, is pretty good. But as you're in need of someone now-now & don't get a quick answer here on the fForum, I suggest contacting the Pattaya Expats Club in an emergency context, or get someone in your bldg. to recommend..Above all, don't sign anything without an english-speaking lawyer's approval. Also on the up-side: If you luck into a policeman who speaks english and approach him with humility & respect, you might be surprised at how helpful and understanding the police can be. .

[jaidee]

Thanks you for your utmost useful information, will contact the said organizations.

As a novice I had no clue where to start for assistance.

FYI, poster removal happened at the reception of my apartment (private area), following up a registered letter send two weeks before, but not answered by, our Juristic management.

Poster, I believe, is an illegal invitation to a private 8/F common area, for the general public.

By removing the poster I only had the intention to protect the residents families.

Understand, I am on thin ice !

[ripley]

I'm curious: What's the set-up in your bldg.? How many people on your Committee? Are they supporting the developer?Where do they stand on this issue? It is their duty to protect the Co-owners and the condominium (see Thai Condominium Act). Are there many other owners who feel as you do?

As I said before, my opinion is that a letter to the Land Office is perhaps the quickest and cleanest route. But the Committee is responsible for answering your very valid questons & stating their own point of view and intentions, If enough of the Co-owners are interested, an AGM could be called to hash out the matter. Again, see the Condo Act for details, but I believe 20% of owners is enough to compel a General Meeting. Also, your Business manager can call one.

[Ned]

Sell and get out now.

[HampiK]

Sell and get out now.

Who want to buy it now? The new buyer also will ask for some background, and then i don't believe that this will be an advantage.

[ripley]

Let us know how it's going & what happens.

[jaidee]

Joined by a bilingual senior member of our “No Grand Diamond Plaza” opposition group I visited the police station.

The Project developer was identified as the complaining party in regard with the removed advertisements.

Requested for fingerprints, we asked and obtained a waiting period, during which, we will negotiate that either the project developer drops his complaint or to identify and return to the police station with proper legal representation.

On another note, if it is proven that the property developer can not claim ownership of the 8/F Tower B, as per brochures upon condominium purchase time, then, it can be claimed that the posters removal reflect this reality, and therefore completely legal.

[123ace]

have you figured out yet what is the common property?

And ultimately I suggest that you sell and do better due dilligence next time. The first rule is find out who built it and are they still around. Best to avoid chinese 'family' developer buildings, where the family still has an on-going interest as you will get treated like a tenant.

have you established when the next AGM is? have you talked with other co-owners about this? investigted the potential for an EGM to stop the developer from proceeding etc etc?

[ripley]

Re-reading your information about the voting percentages likely in an AGM, it sounds to me like the writing is on the wall & this family is gonna get its way - not least because they're probably a lot more "connected" than you are. There may be grounds for a fight using Land Office report and/or an active group of like-minded co-owners. But no guarantees & meanwhile you're in a hostile, time, energy & gaht -eating environment.

It's been suggested you sell out & that might be your best bet. But before you do that I suggest you do a checklist:

-What's the overall quality of your building, its units & maintenance? Upscale? Hotel likewise?

-What kind of mall is planned? Luxury or otherwise?

-Do you have private common pool and recreation areas

If all was done well & upscale, your place could be comfortable and convenient to live in? Alternatively, you could get a better sale price than expected when construction is done.

If you re-think & your examination comes up positive, then you might find it worthwhile to work a deal with the family to install first class security for Tower B, guarantee of inviolability of recreation area & personal parking and still come out okay. However, if the standards are mediocre or downright cruddy, forget this.Of course, there is the fact that these guys don't sound particularly trustworthy.

In your place I'd be furious, but sometimes there is a "Middle Way",(as Thais will constantly tell you!) and it never hurts to take a look.

-,

-

[midas]

Sell and get out now.

Who want to buy it now? The new buyer also will ask for some background, and then i don't believe that this will be an advantage.

offer it to the Chaiyapatranun family

Edited September 15, 2010 by midas

[Wallerder]

I would suggest the followng, the more co-owners you can gather in support the better:

1) Register a formal complaint at the police station with jurisdiction for your area (the police will not act, you just need the report paper)

2) Do as much homework as you can at the appropriate Land Dept. office: title deeds, Condo regulations, AGM meeting records, Juristic Manager appointments etc

3) Appoint a lawyer with appropriate Condo experience: then based on (1) & (2) above, apply to the court for an emergency order (injunction) to stop the project developer's actions until the matter can be investigated.

4) If you can obtain the signatures of 20% of co-owners (calculated by the ownership ratio in the Condo regulations) you can formally request the Juristic Person Manager (JPM) to arrange an Extraordinary General Meeting to discuss the matter. If the JPM & the building management company are acting only under instruction of the project developer it is unlikely that the meeting will be organised, however they may try to sneak one through without proper notification.

5) If the requested EGM is not arranged within 15 days, co-owners have the right to hold one themselves in accordance with the procedures set out in the Condo Act. Various options open up if this can be done.

This would be just the start. You can be assured that the property developer will do everything possible to thwart, confuse and intimidate co-owners to prevent them from standing up for their rights (a barrage of lawsuits is a common technique). As already noted in several posts you will need a competent and motivated lawyer - but most importantly you will need a group of committed and strong co-owners who are prepared to see the matter through. The previous advice in this topic not to go it alone is indeed wise.

Other items:

- The Land Department is the key source of all important information and documentation relating to a Condo's operation and management. However it is likely that the project developer will be doing it's best to make sure LD officers are not cooperative. From inspection of meeting records it might be possible to demonstrate that the existing Juristic Management is illegitimate.

- The Condo Act states: 'If one-co-owner has more than one-half of the total number of votes, his/her number of votes shall be reduced to an equivalence of the number of votes of the other co-owners in the aggregate'. However it is most likely that the project developer will have divided its ownership between various individuals or companies that it controls. In this event it might be possible to argue in court that the project developer has stuctured ownership registration to avoid the intent of the Act.

- Various matters relating common property (disposal, alterations, use/management) must be passed by not less than 50% of all co-owners.

- It is unclear how the hotel forms part of your Condo; the Condo registration documents at the LD should be scrutinised to find out how this is done.

I hope this helps.

[ripley]

Last week in Pattaya a condo was having problems and they contacted Consumer Affairs. (I think that's what it's called). Anyway, this bureau has a reputation for being honest. They sent representatives to meet with condo owners and management, etc. and took down all facts for review. Maybe you can see what they have to offer?

[Chunky1]

can u still use the common area? there might be a bunch of hot farang tourists bathing in thongs.

[bbradsby]

I am not a lawyer but as an architect & project manager have put together condo projects and reviewed some CC&R in the USoA, and using common legal condo ownership concepts, here's a brighter side that you might be able to use.

As the common areas are owned *in common* by the condo owners' association - of which all condo owners are members - and each of these common areas is a separate Lot clearly delineated & deeded in the CC&R, property survey, and recorded in the Land Office, you in effect would become a landlord of any tenant spaces built out in the common areas.

But, bottom line, you have paid for these common areas in your purchase price, as well as in your monthly HOA assessments. Anyone, in the HOA or out, who absconds with any portion of these HOA-owned properties for their own uses has stolen from the HOA unless an agreement and compensation was made.

Surely the aggrieved HOA members can afford to jointly hire legal counsel for a few hours to read the tea leaves and formulate your best strategy. Best of luck in your search for traction in smacking down these a**holes.

[Raptor7]

this past weekend, I happened to walk past the Diamond condo plaza on Petburi (after visiting Pantip computer plaza)...

the Diamond plaza (as well as next door Platinum mall) was very very busy with tourists and locals shopping...I also had a coffee and orange juice at the new Starbucks that sprung up there in the Diamond condo plaza.......

if at least some of the rental revenues are flowing to the benefit of the Diamond condo juristic person, the condo owners may not have to pay monthly maintenance fees anymore (and there could be lots of funds to maintain the building etc.)....is that the case?? if so, even though its busy, it might be a very good benefit (because that area is super busy anyway....)

however, if all of the rental revenues are just going into the private pocket of the family of the developer, then they just expropriated the common areas of the condo for their own benefit and the condo owners are screwed....

[steve187]

ripley

why is your text so big? it is not very pleasant to read

[jaidee]

At Grand Diamond, all maintenance fee's remain the same. We condo owners are getting only all the mess, the developer the benefits !

Among others, the situation continue to escalate, visitors are now walking, uncontrolled, up the 8/F swimming pool, as now part of the 8/F Building B, is labeled Grand Diamond Plaza Shopping mall Office.

Visitors leaving their Starbucks mess at the 8/F for residents enjoyment. Daily whistling contest of the security guards. Laundry Shop installed at Building B 8/F.

Daily, goods are being moved in the personal lifts of 8/F Building B.

At purchase time it was clearly mentioned that 8/F was clearly labeled "child care"

And Building A 8/F Office NOT Building B !!!!

Safety and Security, as predicted initially, is declining in our building.

Grand Diamond Developer, Petboonma, continues abuse, has also taken up recently part of Ground Floor Building B to install Grand Diamond Renting Office !!!

As they have complete control over Juristic, as a matter of fact the Juristic Manager is a .... Grand Diamond Project Manager !

Get this...any Grand Diamond Plaza visitor can visit the office Building B 8/F private floor...but owners cannot have their pizza delivered at their floor...for security reasons !

Update court cases, initiated by the developer against myself,....court case 1 "stealing property" was dropped by the judge, as I did NOT stealed the Plaza posters, but rather, removed them from our residence entry view ! More than propably the court case 2 insult case will be dropped also. (the lady who initiated the court case....has been in the meanwhile dismissed for $$$ theft from building management ....!!!). Hope that the court case 3 destruction case also will be dropped on the grounds that Juridistics didn't handle after several verbal and certified mails requests.

Case is being also escalated to the Thai consumer organization, but sofar, after 2 years, no result whatsoever !

The developer owns over 33 % of all property, so it is extremely difficult to obtain a majority !

Also unity is lacking in the building as the majority Thai owners, although very much enjoyed with the situation, don't want to rock the boat, as this is very..."unthai"....May pen Rai.....

The point here is that Residential property was changed to Commercial property, What was presented and made to believe a purchase time as common property was changed to private property, how can this be ????

Condo Purchaser is clearly not protected in Thailand. First priority is to get legal, affortable assistance to kick the developper's Grand Diamond Plaza Office out of the private owned Building B 8/F, relocating him as per purchase plan to the Hotel Building A 8/F.