Cmu Cultural Studies Warning

[tomji]

A gentle FYI:

News about CMU visa program. Does not deliver on promises

Avoid the CMU Cultural Exchange program.

Multiple staff changes in two months, including completely disbanding the staff and "starting fresh" That means you will struggle to get your paperwork. No written documentation of enrollment. I paid for 3 volunteer "opportunities" and got zilch. This is the 8th week. Was told OK we'll give you a refund then jerked around AGAIN.. oh no... we can't

When I insisted on a refund was told that would mean I would need to give back my first 30 day visa and leave the country in 7 days.

Choose wisely. I paid 17000 baht, got nothing but a signed piece of paper to take out of country. Their website is full of "mistakes" and it's a situation of "well we're all new and she's on vacation and ..."

Perhaps wait a half a year and try. Seems like another money-making scheme for farangs, this time full of misinformation and excuses. I would think twice about giving them any money.

Good luck

[Thighlander]

Paying to volunteer and got cheated. Bummer.

[richard10365]

I'm sorry to hear of your misfortune. What program were you studying?

[thaiguy55]

the same thing just happened with our 1yr language program. they're going to continue our course because we're about 6months in, but we can't get our ed-visas renewed

[Greenside]

The Ed Visa is the principal hook for too many courses and I think the thought and effort that goes into the language/cultural/Volunteer programme that is supposedly the reason for enrolling sometimes doesn't receive the attention it should. Just look at the prominence that "One Year Ed Visa" gets on the web banners or brochures and it's easy to see that many places are really selling an excuse to live in Thailand rather than something of real educational value. Before the sponsors of various TV forums leap in here to protest, let me say that it certainly doesn't apply across the board and also that the same thing happens in Europe although I believe it's policed more thoroughly to see the students really are studying something tangible.

I've only anecdotal evidence but CMU does seem prone to setting up income driven courses at the drop of a hat and with insufficient organisation.

[LJW]

The Ed Visa is the principal hook for too many courses and I think the thought and effort that goes into the language/cultural/Volunteer programme that is supposedly the reason for enrolling sometimes doesn't receive the attention it should. Just look at the prominence that "One Year Ed Visa" gets on the web banners or brochures and it's easy to see that many places are really selling an excuse to live in Thailand rather than something of real educational value. Before the sponsors of various TV forums leap in here to protest, let me say that it certainly doesn't apply across the board and also that the same thing happens in Europe although I believe it's policed more thoroughly to see the students really are studying something tangible.

I've only anecdotal evidence but CMU does seem prone to setting up income driven courses at the drop of a hat and with insufficient organisation.

Agreed. Life in any business here seems to revolve around MONEY

[LivinLOS]

I am going to sound really cold but...

If you deal with shady fly by night visa farms, and get burned, is it much of a surprise ??

I mean, I do sympathize with people who paid good money and didnt get what was promised, but surely when paying the money you knew it was to bend rules ??

[Greenside]

I'd hardly class Chiang Mai University as falling into the category of a fly-by-night visa farm. The OP and anyone else who doesn't feel they got what they were expecting (in this case I believe it was the opportunity to get involved in volunteer work on a legal basis) surely can't be blamed for thinking they were in reliable hands and the "rule bending" as you put it was devised by CMU in consultation with the immigration department if I remember their initial press release. They originally touted this as an opportunity to learn Thai and work legally in the community.

Your comments don't really apply to the situation the OP appears to have found himself in.

[CMX]

Greenside's sense of things are certainly correct, as they match precisely my own observations and tentative conclusions. IMHO, that is.

CMU had no business baiting a honey trap and less yet on abandoning paying consumers. I recall clearly the impression from their publicity that the visa/work/educational program was legal, by the way - they mentioned "established" programs, coordination and the like.

Shame, shame I say! To deny access to the student to responsible decision-making personnel (higher-up in the chain of command, however high) in order to arrange adequate compensations is likely to help to build a reputation for the institution, when it comes to programs for farangs.

Plus, abandoning those interested in volunteer work is unspeakable, so enough said.

Edited August 29, 2010 by CMX

[cardinalblue]

This was my experience with the CMU volunteer program six months ago. I was interested in giving my time in doing the four-hour teaching gig in a hospital. That was my objective going in...

After meeting the young but bright farang who was running the program (spokesperson anyway) I sensed she was frustrated and she was only only in her job less than a month (first red flag). I asked about hospitals b/c their NP add listed placement in hospitals but found out they never had placed anyone actually in one. second red flag.

I asked about the add and who was this person they said to contact?....was told she wasn't working anymore so here is an ad with an out-dated person to contact. Another red flag...

And lastly, just really thought the high fees (never experienced that in america) really excessively high for a simple, volunteer program. I can understand nominal fees for staff, paperwork, supplies, etc but with a major university, some of those costs can be absorbed...

I walked away from my interview with not going to do it b/c not just too many issues but felt like it was a money-generating operation (even possible a scam against foreigners) on their part and not even good at it. Didn't like on two accounts...

I think a good question to ask which I didn't is, Are there any Thais volunteering?

CB

[uptheos]

This was my experience with the CMU volunteer program six months ago. I was interested in giving my time in doing the four-hour teaching gig in a hospital. That was my objective going in...

After meeting the young but bright farang who was running the program (spokesperson anyway) I sensed she was frustrated and she was only only in her job less than a month (first red flag). I asked about hospitals b/c their NP add listed placement in hospitals but found out they never had placed anyone actually in one. second red flag.

I asked about the add and who was this person they said to contact?....was told she wasn't working anymore so here is an ad with an out-dated person to contact. Another red flag...

And lastly, just really thought the high fees (never experienced that in america) really excessively high for a simple, volunteer program. I can understand nominal fees for staff, paperwork, supplies, etc but with a major university, some of those costs can be absorbed...

I walked away from my interview with not going to do it b/c not just too many issues but felt like it was a money-generating operation (even possible a scam against foreigners) on their part and not even good at it. Didn't like on two accounts...

I think a good question to ask which I didn't is, Are there any Thais volunteering?

CB

........ :cheesy:

[cmsally]

I've always thought that paying to volunteer was rather a strange concept.

In the case of CMU it does seem you are getting both visa and tuition for your money so fair enough.

It seems they have put something together they can't really deliver on. I guess the reasons are just speculation at present. The "problems" seem to be well circulated though, in that I heard about it a few days before this was posted and I have nothing to do with such programs or Eng teaching etc.

CMU should really get their finger out and try to salvage their reputation.

[harrry]

It is sad CMU has let this happen. Too much emphasis on marketing. They did have an excellent product with their TEFL and short Thai Courses but had to jump on the visa bandwagon. Strangely CMU does not only teach Thai at its Language Institute, Education also teaches it but is less well known. CMU has many good points but it has allowed the profit at all costs to affect it.

[jdinasia]

I am going to sound really cold but...

If you deal with shady fly by night visa farms, and get burned, is it much of a surprise ??

I mean, I do sympathize with people who paid good money and didnt get what was promised, but surely when paying the money you knew it was to bend rules ??

So ... now Chiang Mai University is "shady" or "fly-by-night"? Geeee and all this time I thought they were one of the most respected and oldest universities in Thailand!

[sarahsbloke]

My friend gets his educational visa through Walen, he has no problems but it did cost 25k for the language course.

Seems amusing that CMU can't produce a Visa, which was the only reason the "volunteer" work was set up in the first place.

Makes you wonder if CMU can provide the Visa it promises with its language course?

Edited August 30, 2010 by sarahsbloke

[bangkokcitylimits]

'she is on vacation' might have been very wise decision because after you put years of serious effort in running this wonderful organisation, especially for the benefit of those in need but totally ignored by their own society (...) but suddenly you loose every backing from those in charge and all you get is opposition, due to retarded jealousy because 'farang' organisations always perform much better then locals, it's very very sad and not even worth to come back for... I won't !!!!

and after all that's just what they want... thai rak thai.

[wehugheog]

'she is on vacation' might have been very wise decision because after you put years of serious effort in running this wonderful organisation, especially for the benefit of those in need but totally ignored by their own society (...) but suddenly you loose every backing from those in charge and all you get is opposition, due to retarded jealousy because 'farang' organisations always perform much better then locals, it's very very sad and not even worth to come back for... I won't !!!!

and after all that's just what they want... thai rak thai.

Agreed!

I was going to help them out, but no way now. Leave them to it, not my problem.

[kawtot]

The conjecture in some earlier posts may have been a tad hasty.

ttbomk, a new directorate at the Language Institute CMU is denying visa extensions to the (obviously farang) students enrolled in international programs such as Thai Language and Cultural Exchange. If I explain why, my post will be quickly removed; bangkokcitylimits drops hints in an earlier post.

Clearly this presents a huge problem for the private companies delivering those international programs through the Language Institute. Alternative solutions are in the pipeline, but several LICMU students are right now in visa limbo.

[Loaded]

According to their website they are still offering 1-year ED visas and selling them as part of a package.

[harrry]

And it is constantly stated they are CMU courses. The fact that they are delivered or not by private organizations does not alter CMUs responsibilities which it seems not to be fulfilling.

Edited September 1, 2010 by harrry

[newbie001]

Electracm:

I know a brilliant young Thai girl with a degree in English from a BKK uni who's just started a Masters in English at the Language Institute.

Really. That seems strange because LICMU doesn't offer a Master's in English. It is not a faculty. They offer courses and extra curricular courses. Some of their courses can be used for other departments. Why would a university have 2 different departments offer the same degree?

Two many posters that joined today citing inaccurate information.

[CMX]

Newbie001,

You raise valid questions about details and motivations. However -

It would be helpful if you, knowing the president and apparently some of the inside workings of CMU, know why people who have already paid their money and have in some cases committed themselves to volunteer programs have, after the fact, been denied promised visas. That is, please, do you say that the denial of visas did no happen?

Do you deny that the effect of this visa refusal is to remove farang students from campus?

Please explain why CMU decided to harm students in this way - never mind that there may be a correction done by whomever - why?

Edited September 2, 2010 by CMX

[Loaded]

Newbie001,

You raise valid questions about details and motivations. However -

It would be helpful if you, knowing the president and apparently some of the inside workings of CMU, know why people who have already paid their money and have in some cases committed themselves to volunteer programs have, after the fact, been denied promised visas. That is, please, do you say that the denial of visas did no happen?

Do you deny that the effect of this visa refusal is to remove farang students from campus?

Please explain why CMU decided to harm students in this way - never mind that there may be a correction done by whomever - why?

Maybe you should ask Immigration whether non-immigrant ED (Education) visas can be issued to volunteers. The new director seems consistent with Immigration's visa rules.

I heard there is a large banner outside CMU LI which states in English that visitors to CMU must be properly attired. From the same source I also heard that the university was unhappy that poorly dressed and behaved foreigners were entering the campus. I've seen unshaven tattooed men wearing dirty shorts and wife-beater vests entering the LI and this is completely unacceptable at a Thai university. Rules of dress and behaviour for Thai students and teachers are strictly enforced but there seemed to be little control over some of the foreign visitors. This is a major issue for Thais especially at a university as prestigious as CMU. This may be why accusations of xenophobia developed.

Edited September 3, 2010 by Loaded

[ogb]

Newbie001,

You raise valid questions about details and motivations. However -

It would be helpful if you, knowing the president and apparently some of the inside workings of CMU, know why people who have already paid their money and have in some cases committed themselves to volunteer programs have, after the fact, been denied promised visas. That is, please, do you say that the denial of visas did no happen?

Do you deny that the effect of this visa refusal is to remove farang students from campus?

Please explain why CMU decided to harm students in this way - never mind that there may be a correction done by whomever - why?

Maybe you should ask Immigration whether non-immigrant ED (Education) visas can be issued to volunteers. The new director seems consistent with Immigration's visa rules.

I heard there is a large banner outside CMU LI which states in English that visitors to CMU must be properly attired. From the same source I also heard that the university was unhappy that poorly dressed and behaved foreigners were entering the campus. I've seen unshaven tattooed men wearing dirty shorts and wife-beater vests entering the LI and this is completely unacceptable at a Thai university. Rules of dress and behaviour for Thai students and teachers are strictly enforced but there seemed to be little control over some of the foreign visitors. This is a major issue for Thais especially at a university as prestigious as CMU. This may be why accusations of xenophobia developed.

A university more concerned with students dress standards than upholding its commitments (and imparting knowledge) doesn't sound like it would contribute to the prestige of the institution (in the real word:)

However, I agree there seems to be lots of misinformation in this thread which should be taken with a grain of salt, although CMX has raised the real questions that need to be answered.

[jazzbo]

Nobody who has actually paid for courses and programs should be denied refunds and/or reasonable extensions of stay ... However it is not suprising to me that a President of a University such as CMU would say that I do not want MY school to look like a g-d d-mn visa mill.

[ogb]

Nobody who has actually paid for courses and programs should be denied refunds and/or reasonable extensions of stay ... However it is not suprising to me that a President of a University such as CMU would say that I do not want MY school to look like a g-d d-mn visa mill.

Agree - Looks like they had their eyes on the money, and didn't foresee the consequences.

(hopefully they can point the genuine volunteers in the right direction so that the beneficiaries of the volunteer programs are not left out )

[realthaideal]

This is where things get interesting ! I like this thread. I both doubt and believe some of the xenophobic things being thrown about as reasons for what's happened. I am also postulating that the program has more likely encountered setbacks or problems because of the actions of maybe one or two people involved in it. When one person pisses another off in this country - often by loss of face, or failure to follow protocol - the people above may show their displeasure by making that somebody else extremely uncomfortable in their position. So I'm betting something went wrong in the Lang Institute's procedures that has made them the object of some stressful times. There isn't 'logic' to it int the sense that many people are now suffering or being let down - the students, but then this is how things often go down over here, so completely natural and, Thai-logical. Now I'm gonna make some calls and check with ppl I know in the Eng Dept and at the Lang Inst to see if I can't get my own 2nd n 3rd ahd info to contribute in addition to my own speculation.

And indeed, make no bones about it, I feel for the people who went to a large program at an established institution hoping to learn and get visas and even contribute to the people thru their programs who now have the feeling of being screwed over. It's not fun for anyone and can then make you wonder who really cares about 'us' in this country, and 'who can you trust here anyway ?' I'm happy to see the people at the company are on it and managing to just move on and look after the people and the program.

[CMX]

Whatever the causes (including, if real, farang disrespect of proper dress - "When in Rome, do as the Romans do."...), my concerns relate only to two things:

Students who have made contractual agreements should not be denied their implementation.

Volunteers should not have taken from them the opportunity for which they had committed.

Those persons, however, who signed up for a LI program in order to get a visa only, planning to attend classes as little as possible, and those who allowed non-attendance or undemanding instruction - have little place in my sympathies. It could well be that such issues earned (justified) opposition from above. Strikes me as a better possibility, as speculations go.

But the changes as implemented are wrong and unfair. If full compensation does not eventuate, the university's actions dishonorable, if for no reason other than the actions harmed some complete innocents. Dishonourable, if you like.

My regard for CMU and its leaders (reputation only) suggests to me that all will be sorted out. "Pain and anguish," however, will not figure into the solutions, any more than delays. This will have been carelessly done.

Edited September 3, 2010 by CMX

[crgram]

Assuming the report that the new director the language programs at CMU, or the president, or both, is correct - (claiming that they are "xenophobic" or at least responsible for the cancellation of the visas) - one must admire their stance in one way, as it flies perfectly in the way of profit for CMU, however the money tracks.

Not sure you meant this the way it seems, but such behavior is never admirable irregardless of intentions. I took a couple of Thai short courses at the CMU LI and was pleased with the instruction and had no problems with my visa. I am sorry to hear how the situation has changed so suddenly.

Good Luck to those of you who are still out money because of this.

cr

[newbie001]

I also agree that if the program is ended or their obligation to the contract cannot be fulfilled then said individuals should get their money back. I feel for anyone that doesn't get what they expect. However, most other organizations in Thailand do this also. Buyer Beware is not something I like to say, but it really seems to be par for the course at most places here.

The purpose of LICMU is to benefit CMU students by offering exposure to additional resources by qualified teachers. The only problem that I see is that they started branching too far out and offering to many things for non Thais. Which wasn't their strength or expertise. Their TEFL program was a good start and it offered something for both the students of CMU and those that took the course. It also was a cash cow. So about 2.5-3 years ago they started offering more things for foreign residents like Thai and Culture and this volunteer program.

Students that are actually enrolled in their TEFL and Thai culture have always recieved their visas and assistance. I think that those in charge of the Volunteer program didn't know how to get the right visas and they had problems. But probably cannot admit to that.

I seriously doubt that any branch of CMU would wittingly screw anyone over. More likely it was an oversight and a major inconvenience to those that tried to do this program.

If they are not continuing the volunteer program. My guess is that it is because it doesn't benefit the students at CMU.

If the President said anything it was to reorganize the focus back to the needs of the Thai students at the University. He nor the other high members of CMU are anti foreigner. They are pro academics and international exchanges and always have been.

CMU hires 100's of foreign teachers for every department. They have several international joint ventures with many foreign universities. There isn't xenophobia or hatred towards westerners from CMU upper management or their board of directors. The majority of the board have lived or studied in Western Universities.

Real Thai Deal beware of getting information from the Humanities English department about LICMU. There isn't a lot of love lost between those two entities. Humanities has its own language center and has always competed against LICMU. Some teachers go between the two for extra work, but there are a lot more rumors than facts spread about both departments.