CMU Fails To Provide Visa Support Documents

[Loaded]

What is your evidence they donot want farang students at the school, are you just shooting from the lip.

sounds like you're the one 'shooting from the lip'. did you read the post? you must of not been here long enough to even begin to understand how we're tolerated at best by most thai and less than dirt to many.

Indeed. From reading the events described in this thread, the message is once again very clear. "We do not want you here, farang. Just give us your money and **** off."

I don't agree. CMU made a lot of money from these products, so if they only cared about farang's money, they wouldn't cancel them.

The Language Institute was set up primarily to serve CMU students. It wasn't set up to serve foreigners. The previous Thai director worked closely with Dr Matt to develop the 'farang' programs. These programs were very popular. This Thai director was then forced to resign just before Dr Matt was asked to relocate his programs. I feel the university felt the LI and it's brand were being misused and the time had come to make changes.

Unfortunately due to very poor communication and management (common nearly everywhere in Thailand) it has turned in to a major headache for them.

Edited September 23, 2010 by Loaded

[Austeyr]

What is your evidence they donot want farang students at the school, are you just shooting from the lip.

sounds like you're the one 'shooting from the lip'. did you read the post? you must of not been here long enough to even begin to understand how we're tolerated at best by most thai and less than dirt to many.

Indeed. From reading the events described in this thread, the message is once again very clear. "We do not want you here, farang. Just give us your money and **** off."

I don't agree. CMU made a lot of money from these products, so if they only cared about farang's money, they wouldn't cancel them.

The Language Institute was set up primarily to serve CMU students. It wasn't set up to serve foreigners. The previous Thai director worked closely with Dr Matt to develop the 'farang' programs. These programs were very popular. This Thai director was then forced to resign just before Dr Matt was asked to relocate his programs. I feel the university felt the LI and it's brand were being misused and the time had come to make changes.

Unfortunately due to very poor communication and management (common nearly everywhere in Thailand) it has turned in to a major headache for them.

You might want to check your facts before making false claims. The old director retired and was not forced to resign at all. Stating such lies is offensive to her as a person as well as to her much applauded hard work at the institute. It is obvious from your postings that you have a personal vendetta agianst Dr Kay. Maybe it is you that do not like farang being successful in Thailand. At the end of the day, Dr Kay was contracted by the president of the university to run programs at the University. If the university no longer required his services the correct way to go about it would have been to give decent notice as so all the students could be looked after accordingly and to work together as so a smooth transition could take place. Withdrawing support and closing down programs with out notice it no one elses fault except that of the institute.

Edited September 23, 2010 by Austeyr

[rob101]

You seem to be completely misinformed - Loaded - the former director was asked by Ajarn Rien to take over the 1 Year Thai AND the TEFL programs at LICMU - when she refused Dr. Matt was asked to stay on and run the programs - but then they decided that they would try and scrap all the programs and try to start again - this is when LICMU decided to stop issuing visas to 1 Year Thai Students - also right on the wall of the Language Insitute is their mission, which is part says: "to offer courses and programs to foreigners"!!! - - plus - you tell me any university in the world that has a Language Institute that doesn't offer language programs to foreigner!!!! - sort of defeats the purpose doesn't it? anway - in 5 years of running those program there has never been a problem with any of the foreigners studying there - the LICMU brand has been INHANCED if anything

[rob101]

News just in - I have just heard that LICMU and CMU executive management have capitulated - they are going to allow the continued running of all programs by IUS at the Language Institute!! Yea! that's one for the farangs!!

[kawtot]

News just in - I have just heard that LICMU and CMU executive management have capitulated - they are going to allow the continued running of all programs by IUS at the Language Institute!! Yea! that's one for the farangs!!

If this is indeed the case, it would be prudent for the university to formally (i.e. not from a non-exec employee's email account) advise students in writing as soon as possible that the programs will continue and visa support will be reinstated.

If for no other reason than to minimise the harm to CMU and its students, which will only increase while we all speculate due to lack of hard information and fear of impending losses (education, fees, visa's, flow-on expenses) .

(btw, I have no reason to doubt your claim, rob101)

Edited September 23, 2010 by kawtot

[RKO10]

News just in - I have just heard that LICMU and CMU executive management have capitulated - they are going to allow the continued running of all programs by IUS at the Language Institute!! Yea! that's one for the farangs!!

Rob, how do you know that? Who told you?

[RKO10]

So at class last night, some people from IUS came in and told us everything would be okay and that classes and visas would continue. IUS will continue working with CMU, but Matt is out. Let's hope this is the final word on the subject.

[RogerL]

Anyone know what the status is of the Cultural Exchange Program? I have made e-mail inquiries but have not had any status information provided.

[thaiboy999]

In case you have over stayed because of the drama at CMU and have not read this:

For the record, both the LI director Rien (see Post #1), and one of Matthew's IUS men, John (a farang), who's now gone: fired, quit, or whatever, had on separate occasions advised me to over stay my then expiring visa while waiting for their drama to unfold. In fact John suggested that the longer I over stay the "better off" I will be because the fine is capped at 20,000B anyway.

Moral of the story: you can trust no one in Thailand, especially those who are in positions that may suggest that they should know better.

[dundas]

I stumbled in on the meeting on Wednesday between Matt, the Thai Director and students whose visa status have been threatened by the CMU action.

It was an ugly meeting, with finger pointing by both sides (Matt and the Thai Director). I would tend to believe Matt, as his answers were direct and to the point and he was willing to have students look at his financial records.

The Thai Director gave answers which I regarded as avoiding the question, or simply blamed Matt.

As has already been mentioned here, the contract students have is with CMU, not with Matt or IUS who are the outsourced provider. CMU has a contract with IUS, but that is their business and students should not suffer as a result of any conflict between CMU and its contracted provider.

I went to the Language Institute today, but the IUS office was locked and bolted. It was alarming to see through the window a stack of passports on someone's desks. People's lives are being affected by this.

I have emailed the university - guess what? No reply.

There has been no communication from the CMU LI to students on this matter. I have only ever received an email from Matt.

As far as the Cultural Exchange program is concerned - don't hold your breath. Gill, who has been employed as office support, is not answering her private phone. No-one I know has heard from Carmen, the Director of the program, in quite a while.

I met some students who are trying to get refunds - they have already gone onto other Thai language schools otherwise they would be in the country illegally. They were waiting for a Thai member of staff to come in and complete some paperwork. I left at 12 noon - no-one had arrived at that stage to help them.

I think CMU have reached a new low in how they treat farang students.

As one student said to me today "disgusting". I agree, and I agree with writing to universities who have exchange agreements with CMU, as well as complaining to Embassies. I certainly intend to do that.

[dundas]

I stumbled in on the meeting on Wednesday between Matt, the Thai Director and students whose visa status have been threatened by the CMU action.

It was an ugly meeting, with finger pointing by both sides (Matt and the Thai Director). It reminded me of the confrontation between red shirts and the army earlier this year - clearly, things had gone beyond negotiation.

I would tend to believe Matt, as his answers were direct and to the point and he was willing to have students look at his financial records.

The Thai Director gave answers which I regarded as avoiding the question, or simply blamed Matt.

As has already been mentioned here, the contract students have is with CMU, not with Matt or IUS who are the outsourced provider. CMU has a contract with IUS, but that is their business and students should not suffer as a result of any conflict between CMU and its contracted provider.

I went to the Language Institute today, but the IUS office was locked and bolted. It was alarming to see through the window a stack of passports on someone's desks. People's lives are being affected by this.

I have emailed the university - guess what? No reply.

There has been no communication from the CMU LI to students on this matter. I have only ever received an email from Matt.

As far as the Cultural Exchange program is concerned - don't hold your breath. Gill, who has been employed as office support, is not answering her private phone. No-one I know has heard from Carmen, the Director of the program, in quite a while.

I met some students who are trying to get refunds - they have already gone onto other Thai language schools otherwise they would be in the country illegally. They were waiting for a Thai member of staff to come in and complete some paperwork. I left at 12 noon - no-one had arrived at that stage to help them.

I think CMU have reached a new low in how they treat farang students.

As one student said to me today "disgusting". I agree, and I agree with writing to universities who have exchange agreements with CMU, as well as complaining to Embassies. I certainly intend to do that.

[Thaigift]

i think everything is fine now. i went to immigraion, paid 10,000 baht fine for my overstay and 1,900 for a 7 day visa extension this morning. i went into the CMU office and handed my receipt from immigration to ben. he photocopied it and i gave him my passport. said i should get my money back soon....we will see though as i dont know the definition of soon!

[shepsel]

I am part of the Cultural Exchange Program. I sent an email to Gill and cc'd it to Carmen last Sunday (Sept 19th). I received an email back from Gill on Sunday saying that Carmen is returning from vacation in Holland that day, and they will meet and discuss my placement in the program--I am supposed to continue teaching a series of classes that Thai students have registered for over 8 weeks ago.

It is now Friday evening, on the 24th of September, and I haven't heard a word since Gill's email at the beginning of the week.

I am trying to decide if it is in my best interest or not to contact my Director at the Humanities Department and let her know of the situation at the Cultural Exchange Program, or if the Thai Professors have been made aware of this problem. If I speak to the Director myself, it is third party information, and if it comes from someone attached to the Cultural Exchange Program it is considered official. It will give the Humanities Department the option of hiring me on staff (which she previously talked about) or canceling the classes that I have organized for the coming semesters.

I realize that they must be swamped with clerical work, but at least there should be an email send out to the registrants that they are working on plan A or plan B. It is quite unprofessional just to leave everyone stranded and fending for themselves.

If anyone hears any more info on the Cultural Exchange Program, I certainly would like to hear about it.

[rob101]

I have found out exactly what has happened - straight from the horses mouth, so to speak: Matt drafted a proposal yesterday to send to pres of CMU to solve the problem - IUS has paid out their 40% share in refunds (I don't know if it is true or not but IUS Thai account said that she has over 800,000 TBH in signed receipts - remember they're almost 300 students affected!!) - if everyone was to get a refund there is still 4 mil baht to be refunded - however, LICMU flatly refuses to refund any money at all to students - Matt has been told that all foreign program MUST go by 4 October - however, he suggested if LICMU allowed them to continue their foreign program till the end of December then all the money made through those programs could be paid out as refunds - the 60% of refund money that LICMU refuses to pay - this Matt felt would be a good solution because LICMU, who will not part with any money, would not have to - and they students would still get there money back. This proposal was shown to the director of LICMU and one of the VP's - they thought that it was a good idea but had to be approved by the pReZ first - however, when it was taken to the previously mentioned soul - "Humpty dumpty" said: No! the foreign programs are gone by 4 October if they don't like it they can sue. So back to square one. The bottom line is that IUS has paid out their 40% (I tend to believe them as Matt has been there almost every day handing out money - not very intelligent if you were intending to rip someone off) - LICMU flatly refuses to pay their 60% of the deal back to students AND even when it was suggested that LICMU let IUS stay long enough to make the money TO PAY BACK LICMU'S SHARE TO STUDENTS - they were flatly refused by Humpty dumpty.

[CMSteve]

Regardless of which side you may be on or who you believe....DO NOT get stuck/caught on overstay!!! Get to immigration/airport/border ASAP. There is NOTHING that IUS or CMU can do for you if you are caught.

In case you have over stayed because of the drama at CMU and have not read this:

http://www.thaivisa....or-overstayers/

For the record, both the LI director Rien (see Post #1), and one of Matthew's IUS men, John (a farang), who's now gone: fired, quit, or whatever, had on separate occasions advised me to over stay my then expiring visa while waiting for their drama to unfold. In fact John suggested that the longer I over stay the "better off" I will be because the fine is capped at 20,000B anyway.

Moral of the story: you can trust no one in Thailand, especially those who are in positions that may suggest that they should know better.

[wintermute]

To anyone following this story it's kind of confusing and a big giant clusterf*ck as you would expect when lots of angry smarmy expats get involved with Thai administration types. Can someone summarize what happened and what the resolution is/was?

[LivinLOS]

Smarmy expats ??

Nice characterization of the people ripped off in this process !!

[RogerL]

As I posted earlier, I found a collaboration agreement existed between CMU and the school I graduated from in the U.S. I sent an e-mail to that school explaining my concerns about CMU no longer providing visa documentation for those enrolled in their Language Institute programs. I copied both the U.S. Consul General in Chiangmai and the President of Chiang Mai University on the e-mail.

At the Chaingmai Expatriates Club meeting this morning, the US Consul General and the Head of Consular Services were speakers. Two written questions were submitted to them concerning volunteering in Chiang Mai and what was happening at CMU. The head of Consular Services said he had seen an e-mail concerning this (the one I had sent). He said that this was the first he was aware of any problem concerning education visas at CMU. Which would imply no other United States citizen made any contact with the US Consul General despite all the complaints on this forum. He will be looking into what happened and is happening at CMU.

Comments made on being able to volunteer in the Thai community more or less were the same I heard from the prior US Consul Generals presentation to the club. Things have been fairly liberally enforced but Thai law does explicitly prohibit people from volunteering without a work permit. The US Embassy has pressed the Thai government on this issue with no success. There is concern that pushing too hard may lead to strict enforcement of labor laws regarding giving of personal time within the Thai community.

After the meeting, an officer from the club shared what he knew about the CMU situation - which was not much more than has been already covered on prior postings on this thread.

I will be attempting to set up a personal meeting with the Director of the Language Institute. I want face-to-face confirmation that the Cultural Exchange Program has been cancelled by CMU. If it has, I will ask for a pro-rated refund for money paid with an agreed to time for refund to occur by. If a refund is not forthcoming, I will issue a complaint to both my credit card oompany and my bank contesting payment based upon non-delivery of services paid for.

[Thaigift]

yo roger...whats the email address that you sent that email to? im going to voice my concerns as well. if you want to, please PM me and tell me what you said as well.

thanks

[shepsel]

I contacted the director of the department (Humanities) at CMU who is supposed to oversee what I do. She basically lets me set the courses to teach, and she drops by once in a while to get feedback from the students and myself. She works at the University and has not been aware of the problems going on at the Cultural Exchange. She was quite shocked that nobody from the Cultural Exchange or the University told her what was going on.

Now she has to go through the process of trying to get me hired by the university (the courses start on Monday) and I cannot be teach without the necessary papers. She commented to me that she wishes that she knew what was going on earlier, so that she could put together a comprehensive work package for me.

I feel it is an embarrassment to us westerns who relied on the Cultural Exchange Program who obtained volunteer jobs for us, not to even bother to tell the Thai's that accepted us, what was going on. How irresponsible they are!!!

[electracm]

To anyone following this story it's kind of confusing and a big giant clusterf*ck as you would expect when lots of angry smarmy expats get involved with Thai administration types. Can someone summarize what happened and what the resolution is/was?

On the Cultural Exchange Programme, your 'smarmy expats' were teaching in Thai government schools too poor to be able to hire native English teachers, working with Thai autistic kids at Suan Dok, doing musical therapy with Thai deaf kids a a special school , designing economical school buildings and accommodation for mountain village kids on Phrao as well as teaching them, and giving their time and expertise to help a great many other organisations working with the disadvantaged. They had also paid good money fro the privilege of giving and sharing where it was desperately needed.

Where were you all this time? In a local hostelry?

This is the real tragedy of this entire mess - that the Thai authorities at CMU don't give a dam_n about the people, both children and adults, who were being helped.

Same with the Thai classes and the TEFL courses - most people learn Thai in order to more fully understand the culture in which they have chosen to live, and TEFL courses are taken, in the main, by people who want to teach Thai kids. Yes, there are always a few who will use these opportunities to get an easy ride, but ....

The truth is that Chiang Mai has always been a hub for NGOs and others who are helping the people that their own government , both local and national, doesn't seem to care about..

Think about it, Wintermute

[rob101]

My friend just received this - apparently it has been emailed to all 1 Year Thai Language & CEP students:

Dear 1 Year Thai Language students & Cultural Exchange Program participants,

Firstly, let begin by saying how sorry I am for the interruption to your studies and placements, your visa uncertainties, and for any financial losses you may have incurred.

Secondly, let me explain to you what has happened briefly and how this situation arose:

For a number of years, IUS/International University Services has administered in partnership with LICMU a number of programs for foreigners. Some of these programs have been running for as long as 5 years or more. The nature of the partnership between IUS and LICMU was a 40% (IUS) - 60% (LICMU) split of profits after costs. Recently, it was decided by the incoming new director of LICMU that they did not wish continue any more programs for foreigners at LICMU. Unfortunately, this decision and the procedures by which this transition could be smoothly conducted was never discussed with IUS/International University Services by anyone from either LICMU nor CMU. Instead, what happened was that LICMU ceased to sign any visas necessary for foreign students to study and gave notice that all LICMU classrooms for foreign programs would no longer be available after 30 September 2010.

IUS tried on a number of occasions tried very hard to convince LICMU that this was not a workable solution, and one that would cause much hardship to our students. However, once IUS realized that there would be no change to these decisions, IUS began to try to solve the situation in some other way, and when that could not be done, IUS began to refund money, pay for overstays, and pay bus fares and air tickets for those students most immediately affected. We then began to try and find other places which may sponsor our students visas. We were able to secure an agreement with another university in Chiang Mai. However, suddenly, and so far, inexplicably, that agreement was discontinued by the alternative university.

So this is how it stands at the moment:

1. LICMU will still not sign visas.
2. LICMU has said there are to be absolutely no classes for foreigners at LICMU after 30 September 2010.
3. IUS has exhausted all its funds in the refunding of courses fees and other expenses due to students because of lack of either a visa or classes.
4. LICMU is refusing to refund any money to students.

For the last few weeks, as the director of IUS, I have felt that I was justified in telling affected students that the rest of the refunds must be now paid by LICMU (from LICMU's 60%) and that IUS had met its responsibilities by making payments well exceeding the 40% of income that it had received.

I was wrong.

In this type of situation, where one partner (LICMU) refuses to meet their obligations to students, it was wrong of me to think that that excuses IUS (or myself) from its continuing responsibilities to our students. It was wrong of me to allow affected students to get handed around like a "hot potato" from IUS to LICMU and back again, with no one taking responsibility for the situation that students - by absolutely no fault of their own - had found themselves in. I am very sorry and I will do everything in my power to rectify my mistake.

Therefore, IUS (and myself) from this point forward takes full (and personal) responsibility for the further refunding of any fair claim from students either in the Cultural Exchange Program or the 1 Year Thai Language Program.

IUS (and myself) will need some time to refund all monies owed to all students (there are currently close to 300 affected students). However, I believe that IUS can clear ALL monies owing within 180 days.

Please email at: ****email removed per forum rules*****. In your email, if you could tell me what you believe you are owed and why, I will compile a list of all monies owing to our students. Once I have a total amount, I will then be able to work out when you may receive your refund. I will then email you with the latest date that you can expect to receive your refund.

IUS begin to replenish its funds during October. Therefore, students can expect the first of their payments to be made by IUS during October.

Again, I very very sorry for the inconvenience and hardship caused to all our students; and I give you my promise that I will do everything I possibly can to resolve the situation honorably and responsibly and in the shortest time possible.

Your Sincerely,

Matthew Kay

Director

IUS/International University Services<br clear="all">

Edited September 27, 2010 by Mario2008

[dundas]

I got a similar note from Carmen re the Cultural Exchange program. I think Matt has done a fantastic job so far of cleaning up a mess not of his making.

I have a visa that goes into 2011, but what's not clear to me: exactly when after 30th September do we come into an "overstay" category and what are the options?

Edited September 26, 2010 by dundas

[lopburi3]

If you are on an extension of stay it becomes invalid when your reason for its issue ends so that would be September 30. As immigration has been making everyone sign that paperwork this year do not believe they will be allowing much leeway. As any chance of a change to a new school now seems to have been removed would urge at least a border crossing/return for a 15 day stay to allow time for new plans or a trip to Vientiane for a one or two entry tourist visa for a longer period.

[harveyBKK]

If you are on an extension of stay it becomes invalid when your reason for its issue ends so that would be September 30. As immigration has been making everyone sign that paperwork this year do not believe they will be allowing much leeway. As any chance of a change to a new school now seems to have been removed would urge at least a border crossing/return for a 15 day stay to allow time for new plans or a trip to Vientiane for a one or two entry tourist visa for a longer period.

Please publicly post the email addresses of the US Consulate in Chiang Mai, the relevant authorities at CMU, and perhaps anyone else relevant. I would like to throw my hat into the ring of officially upset people affected by this.

Assuming that doesn't break forum rules.

[Loaded]

Has any TV member with more than 10 posts who has been a member since before this episode begun received any sort of refund yet?

[harrry]

I had respect for Matt but I have more now. Few people would take the responsibility he has for something that was not in his control. I hope people support him when he gets his new programmes up and running. Well done Matt you are a great person.

Edited September 26, 2010 by harrry

[harveyBKK]

I had respect for Matt but I have more now. Few people would take the responsibility he has for something that was not in his control. I hope people support him when he gets his new programmes up and running. Well done Matt you are a great person.

what new programs? will they result in me getting my Visa?

[ausdave]

To anyone following this story it's kind of confusing and a big giant clusterf*ck as you would expect when lots of angry smarmy expats get involved with Thai administration types. Can someone summarize what happened and what the resolution is/was?

On the Cultural Exchange Programme, your 'smarmy expats' were teaching in Thai government schools too poor to be able to hire native English teachers, working with Thai autistic kids at Suan Dok, doing musical therapy with Thai deaf kids a a special school , designing economical school buildings and accommodation for mountain village kids on Phrao as well as teaching them, and giving their time and expertise to help a great many other organisations working with the disadvantaged. They had also paid good money fro the privilege of giving and sharing where it was desperately needed.

Where were you all this time? In a local hostelry?

This is the real tragedy of this entire mess - that the Thai authorities at CMU don't give a dam_n about the people, both children and adults, who were being helped.

Same with the Thai classes and the TEFL courses - most people learn Thai in order to more fully understand the culture in which they have chosen to live, and TEFL courses are taken, in the main, by people who want to teach Thai kids. Yes, there are always a few who will use these opportunities to get an easy ride, but ....

The truth is that Chiang Mai has always been a hub for NGOs and others who are helping the people that their own government , both local and national, doesn't seem to care about..

Think about it, Wintermute

I would really have liked the oportunity to participate in some of those exceedingly worthy programs!

I signed up for the cultural exchange program. I am a qualified teacher and hold a bachelors degree with honours.

After 2 1/2 months, many emails and vists to the institute, they did not find me a placement. I'm back home now.

I did the TEFL and found it satisfactory but really looked forward to the volunteer work. The cultural exchange program was so poorly organised I just gave up...

I was given insufficient information about the need to apply for a 3 month visa extension and ended up on a 4 day overstay and had to pay an additional 2000B + 7 day extension fee. I was told not to worry... I was even told it might happen again if the paperwork wasn't ready in time, in which case they would cover the overstay fees. Nevermind the fact that I would have been liable to have been locked up if found to be without a valid visa!

I left the country soonafter.

I really feel sorry for anyone whose plans, let alone finances are in disarray over this debacle.

p.s. On leaving my rental accomodation before my contract had even expired, I was given a pro-rata refund, without asking, and certainly without expecting it! I returned my motorcy early as well, and was handed 500B for returning it a week early (I'd paid a month on a contract). This would never happen in the west. My experience is that Thai's are not at all stingy! (LICMU excepted)

Edited September 26, 2010 by ausdave

[RogerL]

In response to question about e-mail addresses. Suggest you do what I did, use Google search. I do not want to violate Forum rules - maybe the moderators can post email addresses but I can not. For the US Consul General, their general e-mail address works. This was verified by the Head of Consular Services when I talked to him on Saturday. I am not sure what results will come from complaining to the director of the Language Institute or President of CMU. I doubt if you will get any response but it may make you feel better. I did cc: the president of CMU and US Consul General on my concerns expressed to a US University with collaborative ties to CMU.

I think a question all non-Thais should ask of their home countries. "Why should our home nations be granting educational visas to CMU students who want to go study in our home countries when CMU has does this to citizens of our home country?"