Detailed Approach To Learning Thai Vowels

[Delight]

"For Example Typical phrases and words

Request bag can no?"

What does the phrase "request bag can no" mean in Thai?

Thanks.

Hello David

I think your Q should be :

What does the phrase "request bag can no" mean in English.

The Answer is ''Can I have a Bag'

If a Thai asks that question,then the literal translation of the words that will be used is :

"request bag can no"

The 'No 'is interrogative' ie it is used to interrogate(in the nicest possible sense.)

It changes the statement ''Request Bag Can '' into a question

''Request Bag Can ' means ''-You can have a bag '' in English

Add the ''NO'' and it becomes a Question

Remember the Thai language is a very old language

How old -I do not know

I understand that the writing system was developed around 1283

The system It has not changed much since then.

That tells me that the Thai language has not change in overall terms since then.

The English language-as we know it- simply did not exist in 1283

From a grammatical point of view English is sophisticated

The Thai language is simple.

Remember Thailand did not get invaded or have religious 'schism's

That meant the Thai language has remained largely unchanged.

David -Have ago at the other statement /q,s on the list

Change back into regular English

Alan D Light

[bhoydy]

This is starting to sound like promotional advertising for Google translate.

[Delight]

This is starting to sound like promotional advertising for Google translate.

Your right

I shall desist

[tgeezer]

"For Example Typical phrases and words

Request bag can no?"

What does the phrase "request bag can no" mean in Thai?

Thanks.

I think the meaning is supposed to be ขอถุงได้ไหม with the poster getting mixed up with ไหม and ไม่

A work in progress but I fear the reason that Thai is being dominated by English.

I don't know how ขอ is defined in one word in English, but it is defined as 'a word used to make him give you something you want' or my translation is 'you give me' it follows that ขอถุง is complete in itself and means 'you give me bag' May I have a bag, might need a particle to soften the demand such as ขอถุงหน่อย which you might say means 'please give me the bag'.

Have Thais always used ได้ไหม in this request? ขอถุงได้ไหม does ได้ไหม not need a verb? ให้...ได้ไหม

Medicine colour teeth; The fact of colour not being the verb สี doesn't matter if it helps memory but I think it is easier to remember this noun as 'Medicine polish/rub,etc. teeth'

This is not a criticism I write in order to get people thinking. One poster wrote that only a farang can understand how farangs understand language; I think that understanding like a farang is the last thing anyone should want especially Thai people with whom we try to communicate.

[Delight]

Hi Matt

I've been using that book myself. If I may, I'd suggest that you learn speaking reading and writing at the same time. I think trying to isolate reading and writing without speaking may lead to problems.

Anyway I'm not sure how you'd do that, if you're reading something, doesn't it 'speak' to you in your head? Don't you need to speak the things you read?

Just curious

Hey Biff,

I can already speak some of the basics just from spending time in Thailand. I tried hard to learn without a book when I was in Isaan with my GF's family for a couple of months so my vocab covers a few different aspects. Now I am just figuring out how to write the words I already know and trying to find systems and rules in Thai script from that, it's not been as easy as I'd like (the silent consonants really drive me mad, not as much as words which don't look anything much like they sound, เกาะ for example - how is that "Koh"?? Looks more like "Gaw")

When I get back to Thailand I will either start lessons or have my gf go through the speaking exercises with me as I figure just trying to learn how to say new words by myself will probably encourage me to pick up bad habits at this stage.

All I really wanted to do now before I got back to Thailand was learn the Thai alphabet and as much Thai script as I could. Hopefully after being able to read and write Thai fluently I will then move on to increasing my vocab quickly.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!

Cheers.

Ah ok, that makes much more sense now I'm struggling with the unwritten vowels myself. Yes I agree เกาะ doesn't look like 'Koh' but I think the transliteration of 'koh' itself is a bit misleading, I've heard it pronounced more like 'goh' but very short and clipped at the end, ms Tastic has given up and just says "samui" or "lanta" "because you ear not work good!"

I've stuck a couple of videos on my phone, tried to upload them here but got a "you aren't permitted to upload this kind of file" message They're from Langhub.com and one is consonants (basically goes through the alphabet showing the symbols in Thai, transliteration underneath and a Thai voice speaking them) and the other is vowels. I found them on youtube

downloaded them and put them on my phone.

The other thing I do is try and get into the language forum on here as much as I can, I find the script a little small but I do a lot of copy/pasting from here into thai2english.com so i can see the letters better and get some meanings too

I hope some of this may help you.

Biff

Hi Biff

Thanks for the Thai Vowels U tube contribution

They are in the standard order SHORT LONG

The main thrust of my post is to turn these around LONG 1st

In fact I am suggesting that u do not learn to speak SHORT as as a separate exercise

Did you download the 9 pages of notes?

Most people missed them and it has led to confusion. Without the notes my post is useless.

'Support 'have now added a note

[Delight]

"For Example Typical phrases and words

Request bag can no?"

What does the phrase "request bag can no" mean in Thai?

Thanks.

I think the meaning is supposed to be ขอถุงได้ไหม with the poster getting mixed up with ไหม and ไม่

A work in progress but I fear the reason that Thai is being dominated by English.

I don't know how ขอ is defined in one word in English, but it is defined as 'a word used to make him give you something you want' or my translation is 'you give me' it follows that ขอถุง is complete in itself and means 'you give me bag' May I have a bag, might need a particle to soften the demand such as ขอถุงหน่อย which you might say means 'please give me the bag'.

Have Thais always used ได้ไหม in this request? ขอถุงได้ไหม does ได้ไหม not need a verb? ให้...ได้ไหม

Medicine colour teeth; The fact of colour not being the verb สี doesn't matter if it helps memory but I think it is easier to remember this noun as 'Medicine polish/rub,etc. teeth'

This is not a criticism I write in order to get people thinking. One poster wrote that only a farang can understand how farangs understand language; I think that understanding like a farang is the last thing anyone should want especially Thai people with whom we try to communicate.

This is my fault

I have widened the topic from vowels, so the vowel topic is being lost.

I did pose some question to David Houston. Q,s nothing to do with vowels. That was my mistake

I think that it is reasonable that I answer these Q,s and ask that after this , suggest that this post is limited to Vowels

Q, s posed ie simple words /phrases being a literal translation of Thai--' word for word'' into English )and their conversion to regular English

Request bag can no? Can I have a bag?

Drug colour teeth --- Tooth paste

Cloth wipe body - Towel

Drug bottle this equal what? --How much is this bottle?

He kick Ball enter Door--- He kicked the ball and scored a goal(soccer)

House big colour green Large green house

You have offspring-How many person? --How many children do you have?

Comfort good,no? -How are you?

Greeting good -- Hello

---------------------------------------------------

You refer to a earlier post and quote from it

If it is my post then I said:

''In my view only a Farang can see things from a Farang's point of view when it comes to language.''

''operative being''see things''

I did not say only a farang can understand how farangs understand language;

However I will retract the statement if it is controversial.

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Edited September 16, 2010 by Delight

[tgeezer]

There is still room for discussion, but I appreciate that you have retracted the comment in order to keep on topic, so this is not the place.

A few comments for you; ยา is a noun for something applied eaten or injected to treat or ameliorate the symptoms of a desease, how it is said in English is an individual's choice. Colour is a noun so 'drug colour teeth' can't be the English equivalent.

The problem with the farang point of view is that it may change Thai to fit English so that you probably could use สี as the verb 'to colour'; certainly readers here know enough English to tolerate that, but Thais who don't know English might not get it.

This is only a discussion forum and because we are talking about language.

Edited September 16, 2010 by tgeezer

[Delight]

Thanks for your useful response.

In relation to 'BURN' that was a typing error.[/size]

Ref EYE I should have added the Tone Rule note

In relation to the rest -I will study and learn.

(Note: I do not use Thai script on the main body of a post , if at all possible. I think that it immediately inhibits those who cannot read Thai from further interest.)

I will produce a corrected version of my post.

However I think that it makes more sense if I wait a bit.

I do like contributors who are both 'Pedant' and ' Picky '

Thanks again

If you DO like 'picky' then I will mention the four pseudo-vowels, which are technically vowels (and hail from Sanskrit), although they behave like consonants.

ฦ = ลึ

ฦๅ = ลือ

ฤ = รึ

ฤๅ = รือ

ฦ and ฦๅ are never used - but exist mainly for historical reasons. ฤ is used sparingly, and can be pronounced in three ways, I believe. ฤๅ is used in one single word (ฤๅษี), and probably only still exists because ฤๅษี is the 'title word' for the letter ษ.

Also - there seems to be an 'unspoken rule' that if a -ะ is encountered, it signifies the end of a syllable. This can help when all the words run together! What this means is that you need the special rules for the 'medial position' for vowels that end with -ะ (such as เ-ะ and แ-ะ). But it also brings with it some complications:

1. เ-ะ, แ-ะ and -อ all use the 'shortening' marker -็ to indicate that the vowel is the short version, but that the next consonant is still part of the current syllable. And that marker can not take a tone-mark, which leads to two things: either (1) a combination is simply not possible, so a short 'medial position' vowel (i.e. it is followed by a consonant as part of the current syllable) can NEVER have a 'falling' tone, or (2) it can lead to an irregular spelling/pronunciation (such as how เก่ง is pronounced with a short vowel and a low tone, but the spelling เก็ง which shows the correct vowel-length, can not take the tone marker to indicate the correct tone).

2. There are vowels that can never appear as the 'middle' of a syllable followed by a consonant. For example, the short 'ee-a', 'eu-a' and 'oo-a' vowels, can never appear as 'medial' vowels.

Finally, there are some down-right confusing tone/vowel-length irregular spellings that will baffle the learner of the language until they are safely stuck in the memory - such as เพชร ('diamond') which is the 'wrong' vowel-length or เฉพาะ ('specifically') which is the 'wrong' tone.

Hello Mr P&P

Thanks for your technical input

The best to date.

1)Vowel เ-ย. I regard this as complex vowel . I have 11 on my complex Vowel chart. They are a topic for a different day.

2) The Sanscript 4 . For a vowel to be a vowel then the passage- way from your lips passed your tongue and beyond must be unrestricted . A E I O U

pass that simple test.

The 1^st 2 pass , the 2^nd 2 fail, unless I am voicing them in correctly-your thoughts please.

3) The ‘shortening marker’’ อ๊ for SAW

My electronic dictionary omits to display it. So as a consequence –so did I

4) เ-ะ, แ-ะ can only occur at the end of a syllable. I fail to see your point.

Given that they are not Medial they must be final.

5)I never realized that those vowels which can take the ‘shortening marker’ cannot take a tone mark. I confirmed it on my Thai keyboard.

Maybe it makes this ‘marker ‘more trouble than it’s worth.

Too late - We are stuck with it

5) SHORT vowels can never be Medial form'

If I added those words in the Medial column for the verbs

SHORT VOWELS NEWER MAFIA SEWER would that fix it?

6) Diamond and the rest

Thai for Beginners which in the main is my reference book

Refers to ‘Exceptions to the rules.

I regards Diamond and all the rest as Exceptions ,ie no discernable rules.

7) Thai vowels EYE SAM and COW

Thai for Beginners defines EYE and SAM as SHORT and LONG , but LONG for tone rule purposes

You state that they are always spoken SHORT .

SAM is LONG in the Thai word for water.

EYE is long in the Thai word for silk

Please explain the basis for your statement

I list COW as SHORT

I specifically avoided TONE rule information

It will only serve to confuse . It is a topic for another day

Thanks again

I will need to create a edited version of f my post

When it is ready can I send them to you via messenger for vetting?

Alan D Light

[dobadoy]

Sounds to me like you're storing up a whole load of future problems for yourself going about it this way buddy. You're taking a very windy route to join up two opposite dots.

There's a reason that you can't find a single book on the market that does it your way, despite all the language experts that there are around these days.

Practicing speaking English according to Thai grammar rules is going to commit you to thinking in English and translating for longer and longer. Speaking a language fluently can't be done through translating while you're talking. The sooner you start thinking in Thai and forgetting all about English the faster you're gonna learn and the more fluent your speech is gonna be.

Likewise, I don't see any point in focusing time learning vowels, long or short, short or long. Nobody speaks in vowels. Learn words, phrases and sentences, the vowels (and tones) will take care of themselves. Just listen and copy the sound of native speakers words. Soon as you've got yourself a good idea of how the language sounds, you can start learning to read and write. Personally, I don't place as much store by the widely held 'thai is a phonetic language' idea as others do. If you want to speak well, listen. If you want to write well, read.

[Delight]

There is still room for discussion, but I appreciate that you have retracted the comment in order to keep on topic, so this is not the place.

A few comments for you; ยา is a noun for something applied eaten or injected to treat or ameliorate the symptoms of a desease, how it is said in English is an individual's choice. Colour is a noun so 'drug colour teeth' can't be the English equivalent.

The problem with the farang point of view is that it may change Thai to fit English so that you probably could use สี as the verb 'to colour'; certainly readers here know enough English to tolerate that, but Thais who don't know English might not get it.

This is only a discussion forum and because we are talking about language.

Hello tgeezer

I had detailed my response to all your points

Then I deleted them

Questions about

1) My Vowel learning system

2) Any questions in respect of vowels

are requested

3) I may stretch a point and answer questions about Bowels-But please no questions about non vowel topics

But thanks for your effort.

If you do really want my thoughts feel free to send me a message via MESSENGER system

Alan D Light

[LazyYogi]

"SAM" is a poor choice to give the sound for ำ. At least where I'm from, the way we'd say the name "Sam", you'd have to use แซม to write it in Thai.

And I'm not sure what's so difficult about the "live" and "dead" consonants at the end of syllables. There are only 6 possibilities. Just remember, if it makes an "m", "n", or "ng" sound it is live (the sound vibration can still live in your throat). If it ends with a "k", "t", or "p" stop the syllable is dead (you cut off the flow of air and 'killed' the sound).

[SWW]

Hello Mr P&P

Thanks for your technical input

The best to date.

1)Vowel เ-ย. I regard this as complex vowel . I have 11 on my complex Vowel chart. They are a topic for a different day.

2) The Sanscript 4 . For a vowel to be a vowel then the passage- way from your lips passed your tongue and beyond must be unrestricted . A E I O U

pass that simple test.

The 1^st 2 pass , the 2^nd 2 fail, unless I am voicing them in correctly-your thoughts please.

3) The ‘shortening marker’’ อ๊ for SAW

My electronic dictionary omits to display it. So as a consequence –so did I

4) เ-ะ, แ-ะ can only occur at the end of a syllable. I fail to see your point.

Given that they are not Medial they must be final.

5)I never realized that those vowels which can take the ‘shortening marker’ cannot take a tone mark. I confirmed it on my Thai keyboard.

Maybe it makes this ‘marker ‘more trouble than it’s worth.

Too late - We are stuck with it

5) SHORT vowels can never be Medial form'

If I added those words in the Medial column for the verbs

SHORT VOWELS NEWER MAFIA SEWER would that fix it?

6) Diamond and the rest

Thai for Beginners which in the main is my reference book

Refers to ‘Exceptions to the rules.

I regards Diamond and all the rest as Exceptions ,ie no discernable rules.

7) Thai vowels EYE SAM and COW

Thai for Beginners defines EYE and SAM as SHORT and LONG , but LONG for tone rule purposes

You state that they are always spoken SHORT .

SAM is LONG in the Thai word for water.

EYE is long in the Thai word for silk

Please explain the basis for your statement

I list COW as SHORT

I specifically avoided TONE rule information

It will only serve to confuse . It is a topic for another day

Thanks again

I will need to create a edited version of f my post

When it is ready can I send them to you via messenger for vetting?

Alan D Light

Good evening,

I will address your points in order:

1. เ-ย is not a complex vowel, it's just the เ-ิ- vowel when the consonant following it is a ย. It is simply there as a special case to stop a word like เลย from looking like เลิย which could be mistaken for เลีย. Interestingly, you will sometimes see people misusing the vowel. It is very common to see the word "term" mis-spelled in Thai - at the end of a school term, you will see "ปิดเทอม" offers in shops.

2. and 3. While it's 'convenient' to say "that one is not on my Thai dictionary, so it's not there", or "they don't sound like vowels to me, so they are not vowels", there are two things to remember:

a. Although the shortened อ as a 'medial' vowel does not occur often (and might in fact only actually appear in loanwords), it DOES occur. You will see transliterated words such as "chocolate" or "rock" use the 'shortening' marker -็ on the อ, because the shortened version เ-าะ can not appear in a medial position.

b. In the case of the short and long versions of the "Sanskrit Four", it's one of those cases where it looks like a duck, it quacks like a duck and walks like a duck - but it's a dog. The 'custodians' of the language, Thai academics and the Royal Institute, refer to them as either a "special vowel" or a 'ligature' which is a consonant and vowel combination. They do not appear in the list of consonants (the "alphabet"), and are treated throughout as a special case. All I said was that for completeness, they at least deserve a mention as a special case. Anyone learning the alphabet will see the word ฤๅษี, and there are enough words that use ฤ that it will be encountered fairly quickly by anyone with an interest in learning to read and right - especially since the Thai for the "English language" (ภาษาอังกฤษ) uses ฤ.

4. That was my point. Because they end in ะ they cannot be 'medial'.

5. We don't have any choice as to whether we use it or not - it's part of the language and we have to live with it!

5. (you have two 5s so I had to too - sorry) I would have LONG, SHORT, MEDIAL and ADDITIONAL. Then for the vowels which can not legally appear in the medial position, simply say 'n/a' or 'not legal'.

6. Those are exceptions, I was just mentioning the background to them. Actually, there IS a rule for the spelling of เพชร but it is arcane, and not helpful.

7. The four 'short vowels that are treated as long', are definitely (usually!) short. However, there are exceptions to that rule, as there usually are. I refer you to the pretty comprehensive page on thai-language.com, on the subject: http://www.thai-language.com/ref/vowels See footnote 8 towards the bottom.

Hope this helps!

Scott

[Delight]

Sounds to me like you're storing up a whole load of future problems for yourself going about it this way buddy. You're taking a very windy route to join up two opposite dots.

There's a reason that you can't find a single book on the market that does it your way, despite all the language experts that there are around these days.

Practicing speaking English according to Thai grammar rules is going to commit you to thinking in English and translating for longer and longer. Speaking a language fluently can't be done through translating while you're talking. The sooner you start thinking in Thai and forgetting all about English the faster you're gonna learn and the more fluent your speech is gonna be.

Likewise, I don't see any point in focusing time learning vowels, long or short, short or long. Nobody speaks in vowels. Learn words, phrases and sentences, the vowels (and tones) will take care of themselves. Just listen and copy the sound of native speakers words. Soon as you've got yourself a good idea of how the language sounds, you can start learning to read and write. Personally, I don't place as much store by the widely held 'thai is a phonetic language' idea as others do. If you want to speak well, listen. If you want to write well, read.

I did an earlier submission (which I think has now been removed)

In relation to myself I describe as follows:

1) Not having good listening skills

2) Poor mimicry skills

3)Poor memory

I have only good analysis skills

I have met many Non Thai people during my 5 years in Thailand who have perfect Thai

, They claim that they have never used a dictionary and never attended a school.

I believe them. They have something that I do not

The method that you describe is valid for those with inherent skills

People who have these skills do not need to be advised to ignore my System

They will simply never look.Why should they .It us no use to them.

I cannot agree with your comment about not learning the vowels

Many involve Mouth/Jaw Tongue positions that are completely un natural for farang

Thai have the same issue

Example If you are a native English speaker the following will happen naturally

1) Your tongue will momentarily ''pop'' thru out teeth with every English word which includes the consonant pair TH ie THANK YOU, WITH etc. Also your tongue with lightly bite your tongue. (unless of course you sat Fank You and WiFF). Try it. Try saying those same words with your tongue firmly in your mouth.

2) Your teeth will touch your bottom lip when you say the word VERY. In fact this occurs for every word which embodies the consonant V

I could go on .There are many examples .

These Mouth/Tongue /Teeth arrangements are completely un natural for Thai people. Natural for Native English

Any Thai who can master these and others will speak like a native English

However because the English language does not demand say 90% diction accuracy-They get away with it

In my opinion if you have less than 70% diction accuracy with Thai -you will not get away with it. Maybe 60%

There are only 3 consonants in the Tha

[Delight]

"SAM" is a poor choice to give the sound for ำ. At least where I'm from, the way we'd say the name "Sam", you'd have to use แซม to write it in Thai.

And I'm not sure what's so difficult about the "live" and "dead" consonants at the end of syllables. There are only 6 possibilities. Just remember, if it makes an "m", "n", or "ng" sound it is live (the sound vibration can still live in your throat). If it ends with a "k", "t", or "p" stop the syllable is dead (you cut off the flow of air and 'killed' the sound).

Your Right . Sam with along Texas drawl is not going to work.

I did suggest that you replace my words with words that suit you.

If you can find a set of English words that fit perfectly for every English speaking person on the planet,then I humbly request that you advise via this forum.

Ref off topic subject-- TONE rules

I need to show you my approach to this issue.

You sound like you have them sussed.

Your comments will be invaluable

However I have not yet made the post

[dobadoy]

I ain't knocking it if it works for you but I'm skeptical that it does.

Your system seems to rely on memory just as much as any other. But, I agree that its a helluva lot easier to remember one you pen yourself rather than one someone else writes.

Why are your listening and mimicry skills poor? Do you have some hearing or speech impediment? Or is it maybe just a lack of enough exposure and practice?

Where you place your tongue, how you shape your lips and what you do with the flow of air as it comes out of your mouth are all real important to getting the sounds right in a language, for sure, but its not only about the vowels. Take the consonant pairs ก / ข or ต / ด for examples. Can you sound out the difference between each one in the pair?

I've been speaking thai for a looong time, and I never met anyone who learned 'cept by copying and talking with natives. The rest is all just filling in time. Anyway, I note you didn't ask for general learning advice, so I'm gonna butt out. Having read through the thread, it just seemed to me you're going about the whole thing ass about tit.

Good luck to ya.

Edited September 16, 2010 by dobadoy

[Delight]

Sounds to me like you're storing up a whole load of future problems for yourself going about it this way buddy. You're taking a very windy route to join up two opposite dots.

There's a reason that you can't find a single book on the market that does it your way, despite all the language experts that there are around these days.

Practicing speaking English according to Thai grammar rules is going to commit you to thinking in English and translating for longer and longer. Speaking a language fluently can't be done through translating while you're talking. The sooner you start thinking in Thai and forgetting all about English the faster you're gonna learn and the more fluent your speech is gonna be.

Likewise, I don't see any point in focusing time learning vowels, long or short, short or long. Nobody speaks in vowels. Learn words, phrases and sentences, the vowels (and tones) will take care of themselves. Just listen and copy the sound of native speakers words. Soon as you've got yourself a good idea of how the language sounds, you can start learning to read and write. Personally, I don't place as much store by the widely held 'thai is a phonetic language' idea as others do. If you want to speak well, listen. If you want to write well, read.

My reply to this is not complete

I think that need to go to''forums and how to use them school''

Here it is again .this time in full

Sounds to me like you're storing up a whole load of future problems for yourself going about it this way buddy. You're taking a very windy route to join up two opposite dots.

There's a reason that you can't find a single book on the market that does it your way, despite all the language experts that there are around these days.

Practicing speaking English according to Thai grammar rules is going to commit you to thinking in English and translating for longer and longer. Speaking a language fluently can't be done through translating while you're talking. The sooner you start thinking in Thai and forgetting all about English the faster you're gonna learn and the more fluent your speech is gonna be.

Likewise, I don't see any point in focusing time learning vowels, long or short, short or long. Nobody speaks in vowels. Learn words, phrases and sentences, the vowels (and tones) will take care of themselves. Just listen and copy the sound of native speakers words. Soon as you've got yourself a good idea of how the language sounds, you can start learning to read and write. Personally, I don't place as much store by the widely held 'thai is a phonetic language' idea as others do. If you want to speak well, listen. If you want to write well, read.

[/quote

I did an earlier submission (which I think has now been removed)

In relation to myself I describe as follows:

1) Not having good listening skills

2) Poor mimicry skills

3)Poor memory

I have only good analysis skills

I have met many Non Thai people during my 5 years in Thailand who have perfect Thai.

, They claim that they have never used a dictionary and never attended a school.

I believe them. They have something that I do not.

The method that you describe is valid for those with inherent skills

People who have these skills do not need to be advised to ignore my System

They will simply never look.Why should they .It is no use to them.

I cannot agree with your comment about not learning the vowels

Many involve Mouth/Jaw Tongue positions that are completely un natural for farang

Thai have the same issue

Example If you are a native English speaker the following will happen naturally.

1) Your tongue will momentarily ''pop'' out thru teeth with every English word which includes the consonant pair TH ie THANK YOU, WITH etc. Also your teeth with lightly bite your tongue. (unless of course you sat Fank You and WiFF).

Try it. Try saying those same words with your tongue firmly in your mouth.

2) You top teeth will touch your bottom lip when you say the word VERY. In fact this occurs for every word which embodies the consonant V

I could go on .There are many examples .

These Mouth/Tongue /Teeth arrangements are completely un natural for Thai people. Natural for Native English

Any Thai who can master these and others will speak like a native English

However because the English language does not demand say 90% diction accuracy-They get away with it without these acquired skills.

In my opinion if you have less than 70% diction accuracy with Thai -you will not get away with it .Maybe 90% is required.

There are only 3 consonants in the Thai language that are un -natural for Farang ie

BP as in the Thai word for FISH

.

NG as in the Thai word for SNAKE and

DT as in the Thai word for TURTLE

The vowels are the same story but with more un -natural vocal ''equipment'' sounds .

I discovered that If I learn the LONG then I automatically had acquired the SHORT.

if I am wrong them I am wrong

B cause Thai are already fluent in Thai before going to school then my system has no benefit for them.

Every book that I have seen attempting to learn vowels will use the system that the author used.

It worked for them -surely it must work for Farang.

Farang students by definition will not be fluent speakers .

- Unless he /she is just learning the symbols and is probably a natural linguist

The object of this post was to ask people to try the system and report their experiences

Naturally the respondents have talked about many things. and totally ignored the request.

As I speak not one has tried it and reported back . Maybe it is simplytoo early and there is at least one mistake on it.

The vowel that I describe as BURN i HAS MeDIA

''if all fails then read the instructions'' is a valid statement I think. To be fair most people downloaded just 2 files . It will not work unless you download all 3 files

[Delight]

Sounds to me like you're storing up a whole load of future problems for yourself going about it this way buddy. You're taking a very windy route to join up two opposite dots.

There's a reason that you can't find a single book on the market that does it your way, despite all the language experts that there are around these days.

Practicing speaking English according to Thai grammar rules is going to commit you to thinking in English and translating for longer and longer. Speaking a language fluently can't be done through translating while you're talking. The sooner you start thinking in Thai and forgetting all about English the faster you're gonna learn and the more fluent your speech is gonna be.

Likewise, I don't see any point in focusing time learning vowels, long or short, short or long. Nobody speaks in vowels. Learn words, phrases and sentences, the vowels (and tones) will take care of themselves. Just listen and copy the sound of native speakers words. Soon as you've got yourself a good idea of how the language sounds, you can start learning to read and write. Personally, I don't place as much store by the widely held 'thai is a phonetic language' idea as others do. If you want to speak well, listen. If you want to write well, read.

My reply to this is not complete

I think that need to go to''forums and how to use them school''

Here it is again .this time in full

Sounds to me like you're storing up a whole load of future problems for yourself going about it this way buddy. You're taking a very windy route to join up two opposite dots.

There's a reason that you can't find a single book on the market that does it your way, despite all the language experts that there are around these days.

Practicing speaking English according to Thai grammar rules is going to commit you to thinking in English and translating for longer and longer. Speaking a language fluently can't be done through translating while you're talking. The sooner you start thinking in Thai and forgetting all about English the faster you're gonna learn and the more fluent your speech is gonna be.

Likewise, I don't see any point in focusing time learning vowels, long or short, short or long. Nobody speaks in vowels. Learn words, phrases and sentences, the vowels (and tones) will take care of themselves. Just listen and copy the sound of native speakers words. Soon as you've got yourself a good idea of how the language sounds, you can start learning to read and write. Personally, I don't place as much store by the widely held 'thai is a phonetic language' idea as others do. If you want to speak well, listen. If you want to write well, read.

[/quote

I did an earlier submission (which I think has now been removed)

In relation to myself I describe as follows:

1) Not having good listening skills

2) Poor mimicry skills

3)Poor memory

I have only good analysis skills

I have met many Non Thai people during my 5 years in Thailand who have perfect Thai.

, They claim that they have never used a dictionary and never attended a school.

I believe them. They have something that I do not.

The method that you describe is valid for those with inherent skills

People who have these skills do not need to be advised to ignore my System

They will simply never look.Why should they .It is no use to them.

I cannot agree with your comment about not learning the vowels

Many involve Mouth/Jaw Tongue positions that are completely un natural for farang

Thai have the same issue

Example If you are a native English speaker the following will happen naturally.

1) Your tongue will momentarily ''pop'' out thru teeth with every English word which includes the consonant pair TH ie THANK YOU, WITH etc. Also your teeth with lightly bite your tongue. (unless of course you sat Fank You and WiFF).

Try it. Try saying those same words with your tongue firmly in your mouth.

2) You top teeth will touch your bottom lip when you say the word VERY. In fact this occurs for every word which embodies the consonant V

I could go on .There are many examples .

These Mouth/Tongue /Teeth arrangements are completely un natural for Thai people. Natural for Native English

Any Thai who can master these and others will speak like a native English

However because the English language does not demand say 90% diction accuracy-They get away with it without these acquired skills.

In my opinion if you have less than 70% diction accuracy with Thai -you will not get away with it .Maybe 90% is required.

There are only 3 consonants in the Thai language that are un -natural for Farang ie

BP as in the Thai word for FISH

.

NG as in the Thai word for SNAKE and

DT as in the Thai word for TURTLE

The vowels are the same story but with more un -natural vocal ''equipment'' sounds .

I discovered that If I learn the LONG then I automatically had acquired the SHORT.

if I am wrong them I am wrong

B cause Thai are already fluent in Thai before going to school then my system has no benefit for them.

Every book that I have seen attempting to learn vowels will use the system that the author used.

It worked for them -surely it must work for Farang.

Farang students by definition will not be fluent speakers .

- Unless he /she is just learning the symbols and is probably a natural linguist

The object of this post was to ask people to try the system and report their experiences

Naturally the respondents have talked about many things. and totally ignored the request.

As I speak not one has tried it and reported back . Maybe it is simplytoo early and there is at least one mistake on it.

The vowel that I describe as BURN The medial form is for LONG not ,as I state SHORT vowel

''if all fails then read the instructions'' is a valid statement I think. To be fair most people downloaded just 2 files . It will not work unless you download all 3 files

[dobadoy]

I think that need to go to''forums and how to use them school''

The object of this post was to ask people to try the system and report their experiences

Naturally the respondents have talked about many things. and totally ignored the request.

As I speak not one has tried it and reported back .

You hit one real fat nail square on its fat square head with that one buddy in more ways than one.

:lol:

Edited September 16, 2010 by dobadoy

[tgeezer]

My comment woud be that it is all very confusing and my point is that you are not learning Thai but some sort of English adaption. The fact of using an English word to show the vowel you have said doesn't work and advise people to pick a word which suits them! How can this be done without knowing the sound?

The confusion of making vowels dead or live, they are not; the combination of consonent and vowel is either a dead or live word, dead or live is an easy way to explain what the tone is and depends on the class of the initial consonent.; It is designed to make things more simple but seems to have the opposite effect when we have our own ideas of what they mean.

ใ ไ are the sound ัย which is short never long. In combination with a consonent they become live words because live words are in the groups แม่เกย the other live words are in the groups : แม่ กม, กง, กน,เกอว and long vowels in the group แม่ ก กา (I don't have any books right now but I think ก กา means long vowels without closing consonent not just สระ อา )

Dead words are 1. words containing short vowels with no closing consonent and 2. words in the groups แม่ กก, กด, กบ.

In Thai it hangs together with less confusion than when we attempt to explain it in English.

There are only nine simple vowels and three mixed vowels all have both have long and short forms making 24 vowels, the four short sounds ใ ไ อำ เอา are treated as vowels but you need to know which vowel and consonents they represent for tone rules or they appear to be exceptions. อ is said to be a consonent and a vowel, ย ว are not considered vowels on their own as can be seen by the existence of แม่ เกย and แม่ เกอว

The advantage of learning to read is that you can immediately forget the English books and use primary school books which deal with everything adequately and have the advantage of making your learning compatable with what Thai speakers understand.

There is plenty of room for discussion, This is the best that I can do from memory and the dictionary I am sure anomolous points will attract comment.

[Delight]

I ain't knocking it if it works for you but I'm skeptical that it does.

Your system seems to rely on memory just as much as any other. But, I agree that its a helluva lot easier to remember one you pen yourself rather than one someone else writes.

Why are your listening and mimicry skills poor? Do you have some hearing or speech impediment? Or is it maybe just a lack of enough exposure and practice?

Where you place your tongue, how you shape your lips and what you do with the flow of air as it comes out of your mouth are all real important to getting the sounds right in a language, for sure, but its not only about the vowels. Take the consonant pairs ก / ข or ต / ด for examples. Can you sound out the difference between each one in the pair?

I've been speaking thai for a looong time, and I never met anyone who learned 'cept by copying and talking with natives. The rest is all just filling in time. Anyway, I note you didn't ask for general learning advice, so I'm gonna butt out. Having read through the thread, it just seemed to me you're going about the whole thing ass about tit.

Good luck to ya.

I like your honesty .

Listening skill is like any other . You have it or you don't

I have natural mathematical skills

Poor listening skills .This has nothing to do with hearing skills.

Both my hearing and English speaking skills are in good shape

I suspect that you will be better with Mimcry than mathematics.

Nobody has it all

This system deals with one element of learning Thai.

No where do I suggest that it is the only thing that you have to learn

It is about vowels only. Help with accuracy of diction plus a reduction in the number of things to remember.

Given that you are now fluent speaker which you imply then

you sound like that category of person who will never look at this post-you have no need.

Given this I am curious why you did.

Are you schadenfreuden ?

[dobadoy]

Given that you are now fluent speaker which you imply then

you sound like that category of person who will never look at this post-you have no need.

Given this I am curious why you did.

I'm conversant in Thai, not fluent, which means I speak it every day and struggle through a paper every now and again.

I look in on this forum sometimes to answer questions, sometimes to pick up pearls of wisdom from the experts. Your thread was at the top, got a lot of hits, looked like it could be interesting.

Turned out to be a bit kooky, so I thought I'd tell you so. You OK with that?

Are you schadenfreuden ?

What you talking about there buddy? You sound a bit wacko (or is it 'wacco')?

[Delight]

Hello Mr P&P

Thanks for your technical input

The best to date.

1)Vowel เ-ย. I regard this as complex vowel . I have 11 on my complex Vowel chart. They are a topic for a different day.

2) The Sanscript 4 . For a vowel to be a vowel then the passage- way from your lips passed your tongue and beyond must be unrestricted . A E I O U

pass that simple test.

The 1^st 2 pass , the 2^nd 2 fail, unless I am voicing them in correctly-your thoughts please.

3) The 'shortening marker'' อ๊ for SAW

My electronic dictionary omits to display it. So as a consequence –so did I

4) เ-ะ, แ-ะ can only occur at the end of a syllable. I fail to see your point.

Given that they are not Medial they must be final.

5)I never realized that those vowels which can take the 'shortening marker' cannot take a tone mark. I confirmed it on my Thai keyboard.

Maybe it makes this 'marker 'more trouble than it's worth.

Too late - We are stuck with it

5) SHORT vowels can never be Medial form'

If I added those words in the Medial column for the verbs

SHORT VOWELS NEWER MAFIA SEWER would that fix it?

6) Diamond and the rest

Thai for Beginners which in the main is my reference book

Refers to 'Exceptions to the rules.

I regards Diamond and all the rest as Exceptions ,ie no discernable rules.

7) Thai vowels EYE SAM and COW

Thai for Beginners defines EYE and SAM as SHORT and LONG , but LONG for tone rule purposes

You state that they are always spoken SHORT .

SAM is LONG in the Thai word for water.

EYE is long in the Thai word for silk

Please explain the basis for your statement

I list COW as SHORT

I specifically avoided TONE rule information

It will only serve to confuse . It is a topic for another day

Thanks again

I will need to create a edited version of f my post

When it is ready can I send them to you via messenger for vetting?

Alan D Light

Good evening,

I will address your points in order:

1. เ-ย is not a complex vowel, it's just the เ-ิ- vowel when the consonant following it is a ย. It is simply there as a special case to stop a word like เลย from looking like เลิย which could be mistaken for เลีย. Interestingly, you will sometimes see people misusing the vowel. It is very common to see the word "term" mis-spelled in Thai - at the end of a school term, you will see "ปิดเทอม" offers in shops.

2. and 3. While it's 'convenient' to say "that one is not on my Thai dictionary, so it's not there", or "they don't sound like vowels to me, so they are not vowels", there are two things to remember:

a. Although the shortened อ as a 'medial' vowel does not occur often (and might in fact only actually appear in loanwords), it DOES occur. You will see transliterated words such as "chocolate" or "rock" use the 'shortening' marker -็ on the อ, because the shortened version เ-าะ can not appear in a medial position.

b. In the case of the short and long versions of the "Sanskrit Four", it's one of those cases where it looks like a duck, it quacks like a duck and walks like a duck - but it's a dog. The 'custodians' of the language, Thai academics and the Royal Institute, refer to them as either a "special vowel" or a 'ligature' which is a consonant and vowel combination. They do not appear in the list of consonants (the "alphabet"), and are treated throughout as a special case. All I said was that for completeness, they at least deserve a mention as a special case. Anyone learning the alphabet will see the word ฤๅษี, and there are enough words that use ฤ that it will be encountered fairly quickly by anyone with an interest in learning to read and right - especially since the Thai for the "English language" (ภาษาอังกฤษ) uses ฤ.

4. That was my point. Because they end in ะ they cannot be 'medial'.

5. We don't have any choice as to whether we use it or not - it's part of the language and we have to live with it!

5. (you have two 5s so I had to too - sorry) I would have LONG, SHORT, MEDIAL and ADDITIONAL. Then for the vowels which can not legally appear in the medial position, simply say 'n/a' or 'not legal'.

6. Those are exceptions, I was just mentioning the background to them. Actually, there IS a rule for the spelling of เพชร but it is arcane, and not helpful.

7. The four 'short vowels that are treated as long', are definitely (usually!) short. However, there are exceptions to that rule, as there usually are. I refer you to the pretty comprehensive page on thai-language.com, on the subject: http://www.thai-lang....com/ref/vowels See footnote 8 towards the bottom.

Hope this helps!

Scott

Hi Scott

I think that I am getting further and further from the point

The objective was not to list all the vowels regular and obscure

The object was to see if 2 elements of this system that I have posted are different enough to make a difference.

1) You only have to learn to speak LONG vowels 1 thru to 11 inclusive

Given that you can accurately speak these 11 vowels ,then you will automatically be able to pronounce the 11 SHORT pairs

The 2nd element refers to simplification of writing SHORT vowels 5 thru to 11. In fact I do not need a reply to this . The answer is obvious

Everything else that I have listed is not new . It just adds to the completeness of vowels but offers no benefits.

I would like you to try element 1 and report

Thanks

Alan D Light

PS Did you download the Notes?

Edited September 16, 2010 by Delight

[Delight]

"SAM" is a poor choice to give the sound for ำ. At least where I'm from, the way we'd say the name "Sam", you'd have to use แซม to write it in Thai.

And I'm not sure what's so difficult about the "live" and "dead" consonants at the end of syllables. There are only 6 possibilities. Just remember, if it makes an "m", "n", or "ng" sound it is live (the sound vibration can still live in your throat). If it ends with a "k", "t", or "p" stop the syllable is dead (you cut off the flow of air and 'killed' the sound).

Sorry for the delay in responding to you.

You are absolutely right about the word SAM

On page 4 of the notes that accompanied the post I state:-

'I have not found any English words that are totally perfect in this application. Change them to words that suit you.'

May I ask-did you download the notes -9 pages??

Reference the Sounds DEAD LIVE or simply struggling for breath -every body deals with them with a system that suits them

I recently submitted a post on the topic of tones dated 19 Sept 2010. My way of dealing with them is detailed there.<br style=""> <br style="">

Edited September 21, 2010 by Delight