6 In 12 Month Rule

[steveweaver99]

This subject has been touched on many times.

I know when applying for a tourist visa there is this 6 in12 month convention and not rule. The Bordger Agency on their website states the following:

There is no restriction on the number of visits a person may make to the UK nor any requirement that a specified time must elapse between successive visits, The fact that a person has made a series of visits with only brief intervals between them would not, in absence of any other relevant factors, constitute sufficient grounds for refusal.

It is reasonable, however, for the ECO to consider the stated purpose of the visit in the light of the length of time that has elapsed since previous visits. A visitor should not, for example, normally spend more that 6 out of any 12 months in the UK.

I would like to apply for another tourist visa for my partner who's visa expires in Oct (she is returning the end of September), which will mean that she would of stayed 5 out of the 6 months. What do you think would be a reasonable time before applying for aanother tourist visa? I was thinking 90 days.

We have been together for 20 months of which at this point we have spent approx 15 months living together in the UK and mostly Thailand. We dont quite meet the criteria for an unmarried partner visa, so the idea is to apply for another tourist visa.

I dont think we are taking advantage of the system as we consider our relationship serious, however marriage is not an option at least not yet. In any case the application process takes some time.

Thanks all.

[7by7]

Whatever interval you leave, she will need to explain why she is visiting the UK again so soon after a 5 month visit.

If the ECO considers that she is applying for visit visas to get around the settlement rules, then she will probably be refused.

However, if she can show a genuine reason for visiting the UK so frequently for such long periods then the visa will probably be granted.

[ThaiVisaExpress]

The applicant must satisfy the ECO that she is a genuine visitor which could be difficult.

[sumrit]

To satisfy the '6 in 12 month rule' if she has been in the UK for 5 months she needs to wait at least 5 months before applying, however, as both 7by7 and TVE state, if she is applying again so quickly she will also has to show that it is for a genuine visit and she's not trying to live in the UK (semi) permanently using visit visas.

[ThaiVisaExpress]

In my experience she will struggle they cannot refuse reason to return as she has already demonstrated she can be trusted hower they can refuse the application under the grounds of being a genuine visitor.

[paully]

The point of the '6 out of 12' convention for visitor visas is that it sets a presumption for ECOs. The presumption can of course, like all presumptions, be rebutted by showing sufficient evidence of why another trip to the UK so soon is necessary. However the visitor visa is simply not there for applicants who "consider our relationship serious, however marriage is not an option at least not yet". Visitors are just that - those who travel to the UK for a temporary and short-term stay.

[steveweaver99]

I see your points about the visitor visa, but I have heard of people on this forum who's partner's had run a 6month visa and apply for a second one only 2-3 months after with success (see extract below).

returned from uk with thai gf after 6months stay in uk ,,,,,,,,,,on jan 20th 210,,,,,,,,,applied for another visa for her to visit uk from april 210,,,,,,,,,that was on feb 23rd,,,,,,,,,,,visa granted again ,,,,,but from feb23rd,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,dont know why they dated from feb,but happy she got it anyway ,,,,,,,,,,,,,

I guess the ECO could take into account that the relationship is genuine and they dont quite meet the criteria for an 'unmarried partner' visa, I dont know I can only guess. And if you are visitng your partner wouldnt that be classed as a genuine visit?? Why would you want to get round the settlement rule, perhaps either a. you dont want to get married and b. you dont meet the criteria for an unmarried visa.

My other option is wait until we have been together for 2 years (January 2011) and apply for an 'unmarried partner' visa. My only concern is the proof required for living together. When we lived in Thailand I didnt have any proof other than photographs.

Anyone out there have any experience of their partner running a visa for 5, 6 months and then re-applying 2-3 months later with success? Be interesting to hear your point of view.

Cheers all.

Edited September 15, 2010 by steveweaver99

[paully]

if you are visitng your partner wouldnt that be classed as a genuine visit??

Visiting your UK partner for a short time is fine. The issue is whether, in effect, you are living with your partner in the UK on successive visit visas with only short breaks in between. In this situation you should be in possession of a settlement visa. All that posters are saying is that your GF needs to satisfy the ECO by providing reasons why she wants another visit visa so soon after the earlier one. If she can, that's great.

[ThaiVisaExpress]

We have experience of this obviously and I have added my thoughts already.

[bobrussell]

My wife (gf then) should really have fallen foul of the 6 in 12 ''rule'' as she was travelling back and forth over several years. I assume we got away with it because she would come over for a couple of months, return home then back again regularly.

She probably spent 8 months each year in the UK but we were blissfully unaware of the convention. It was never questioned!

We did have a house in Bangkok so I think that helped.

This 6 in 12 may be 'enforced' more strictly now than a couple of years ago but in principle I cannot see anything wrong in visiting your partner regularly!!! I suspect staying for 6 months returning to Thailand only to reapply may be seen as taking the proverbial a bit!

[steveweaver99]

Ok guys looks like I will have to wait a bit longer :-(

thanks for the info

[7by7]

I cannot see anything wrong in visiting your partner regularly!!!

Nothing wrong with this at all; provided they are genuine visits and not an attempt to live with their partner in the UK.

I suspect staying for 6 months returning to Thailand only to reapply may be seen as taking the proverbial a bit!

Indeed; a long visit in the UK followed by a short visit home to apply for a new visit visa for another long visit is not really visiting one's partner, it's using visit visas to live in the UK with them. If this is what one wants then one should apply for settlement.

To be blunt; people attempting to use a visit visa to live in the UK, for whatever reason, are one of the main reasons for genuine visitors sometimes finding it difficult to obtain their visa!

Steve, you said

Why would you want to get round the settlement rule, perhaps either a. you dont want to get married and b. you dont meet the criteria for an unmarried visa

to which I would add a third, you want get get married but cannot because one of you is still married to someone else.

If the first, then either get married or, if unsure if this is what you want then, like many have done, continue the relationship via phone, etc. with visits to each other until you are sure.

If the second, then wait until you do; although with one of you living in the UK and the other in Thailand this may be difficult. Although time spent apart will not necessarily disqualify you (see SET5.12 Assessing whether the relationship has subsisted for two years).

If the third, then wait until the other marriage is legally over and you can marry each other.

[steveweaver99]

Hi 7by7

No one is attempting to get round the rules by living in the UK without a settlment visa. Neither of us are married and were not going to get married for the sake of a settlement visa, not in the near future anyway and you shouldnt make presumptions without knowing either of us.

I dont think a 5 month visit followed by a 3 month gap before applying again is any different than people staying for 2-3 months and applying again after 2 months. My work is freelance so when my contract is finished I will go back to Thailand and apply for a tourist visa again. I only came on for advise not criticism.

Its easy for people to sit there and make these statements when they are already married, plus if I had a pound for the amount fo people that bent the UK visa rules I would be rich now lol.

Edited September 19, 2010 by steveweaver99

[7by7]

Hi 7by7

No one is attempting to get round the rules..............if I had a pound for the amount fo people that bent the UK visa rules I would be rich now

Can you not see the contradiction in these two statements?

If you read my post properly you will see that my general comments were in response to, and general agreement with, those of bobrussell and not directed at you.

Any serial visitor, no matter how long each visit and the gap between them, when applying for each visa will need to satisfy the ECO that they are a genuine visitor and not attempting to use visit visas to live in the UK with short gaps outside. If they hold a long term visit visa then they may be required to satisfy an IO at the port of entry that they are a genuine visitor, particularly if they have had long periods in the UK with short periods out of it. or they could be refused entry.

The remarks that were directed at you were in response to you asking why anyone would want to get round the settlement rules, I supplied an answer and some advice on what one should do in order to live together in the UK.

As you feel that these remarks were being critical of you then all I can say is that having read your many posts on this subject in other topics as well as this one, the impression you give is that you are looking for ways of using visit visas for your girlfriend live in the UK with you. Although, to be fair, it does seem that you only want to do this until she can meet the 2 year requirement for a settlement visa as your unmarried partner.

As you say that you do not want to get married for the sake of a settlement visa, a sentiment with which I totally agree, then one has to wonder why you do want a settlement visa as unmarried partners. A couple are either committed to each other or they are not; a piece of paper from the ampur or registrar makes no difference to that. If you are not committed to each other then not only should you not be getting married, you shouldn't be considering unmarried partner visas either!

[steveweaver99]

We are very much commiited to each other which is why I spent most of my time in Thailand with her instead off working in the UK. Further to that she gave up her job and has shown plenty of commitment to me.

We have personal reasons for not wanting or being able to get married at this point, so an unmarried partner visa is what we would like to go for, they do exist for a reason afterall. And without knowing our background your not in a position to pass comment on why one doesnt choose a settlement visa by marriage, you can on summize.

I shoudlnt have to explain my reasons, you should just accept that is the visa we want to apply for without viewing things cynically.

Edited September 19, 2010 by steveweaver99

[7by7]

Yes, unmarried partners visas do exist for a reason; so that couples who have been living together outside the UK (or inside if in the UK in certain categories, such as student) in a relationship akin to marriage for at least the last two years can apply for settlement in the UK. (Immigration rules, Paras 295AA to 295O)

Unfortunately, you do not meet this requirement; and although the rules do allow short periods apart, and even allow time spent in the UK together as a visitor to count, they do not allow serial visits to the UK when the intention is not to visit but to live.

From what you have said the chances of your girlfriend obtaining another visit visa are very slim, and she does not meet the requirement for an unmarried partners visa. I offered you an alternative that would allow you to live in the UK together. If you cannot take that course for legal reasons, then you have my sympathy; but if you simply choose not to take that course, that is up to you.

[steveweaver99]

Yes, unmarried partners visas do exist for a reason; so that couples who have been living together outside the UK (or inside if in the UK in certain categories, such as student) in a relationship akin to marriage for at least the last two years can apply for settlement in the UK. (Immigration rules, Paras 295AA to 295O)

Unfortunately, you do not meet this requirement; and although the rules do allow short periods apart, and even allow time spent in the UK together as a visitor to count, they do not allow serial visits to the UK when the intention is not to visit but to live.

From what you have said the chances of your girlfriend obtaining another visit visa are very slim, and she does not meet the requirement for an unmarried partners visa. I offered you an alternative that would allow you to live in the UK together. If you cannot take that course for legal reasons, then you have my sympathy; but if you simply choose not to take that course, that is up to you.

:-)

I will keep you updated

[bobrussell]

I shoudlnt have to explain my reasons, you should just accept that is the visa we want to apply for without viewing things cynically.

Just remember the ECO is going to look at an application with cynicism!!!!

They are specifically looking for people that are trying to by-pass the rules. We did not even know about the '6 in 12' rule and probably could have fallen foul of it if the ECO had felt minded to.

If your partner has a good reason to visit for the length and interval indicated it does not necessarily mean a visa application will be rejected just that it might!!

It is important to explain this thoroughly on the application but be aware the ECO may refuse the application under this so-called rule.

Edited September 21, 2010 by bobrussell

[steveweaver99]

Thanks for the advice.

I will probably be looking at applying after a 5 month interval (after spending one month in Thailand at the end of January). So being that she had spent 5 months out of the 12 months and not 6 in the UK, in theory there shouldnt be any reason why the ECO should reject the application. It would of been nice to apply sooner but as you have said and other people have said it is taking the p@ss a little bit. Although I have to say I would only of done this the once, by then I would be looking at a different immigarion category.

Its difficult when your in a serious relationship and you have to spend time apart, its not easy. But I guess thats the 'nature of the beast'.

Thanks all

Edited September 21, 2010 by steveweaver99

[newtronbom]

Just a comment on the marriage side of things. My wife and I got married in a church in Sukumvit Soi 2. I got a paper from my embassy stating that I was single. 2 hours(small fee). Translation into Thai, 1 hour and 300 baht. Girlfriend had a paper from the "Nai Aphur" where she was born saying she was single, just in case it was needed - it wasn't. Ceremony and signing, getting the marriage certificate in Thai & Eng - free but were asked for a small donation(actual paperwork) at church about another 2 hours not including the reception and so on which you could forgo if you wish. Next day after my head recovered, went to embassy and registered the marriage. No cost. Same day, wife went to the local amphur office and for 5 or 6 hundred baht incl new Thai ID card(price will have gone up now) changed her surname for mine(Not saying this is what you should do) as when she got a passport she and I will have same surname, making it easier(immigration see Mrs Brown, not some tongue twisting Thai name) to apply for visas. It also conveys stability, commitment and not just convenience. It isn't a big drama and should help any visa app to go to any country, not just the uk. Finally, though I have no intention of doing this now or in the future, a divorce here is just as easy to get. We never used a Lawyer at all, nor did we bribe anyone. Not necessary. Helps if you speak Thai and speak well of your wife's family, which shows this is not a 10 min wonder......

[the scouser]

There is no 6-in-12 rule.

If anyone can show me the legislation that sets out such a concept in law, I am more than willing to be enlightened.

Scouse.

[7by7]

Scouse,

Although the OP used the word 'rule' in his topic title, as he himself said in his opening post, it is not an actual rule.

However, as has been made clear by the OP in his opening post, the guidance issued to ECOs does say

It is reasonable, however, for the ECO to consider the stated purpose of the visit in the light of the length of time that has elapsed since previous visits. A visitor should not, for example, normally spend more that 6 out of any 12 months in the UK

Para 2.1.9 Frequency and Duration of Visits of the IDIs says the same (except substitute "immigration officer" for "ECO").

I am surprised that a person of your experience and qualifications is unaware of this.

[the scouser]

I am fully aware of the guidance published to IOs/ECOs, and am as equally surprised that you do not understand the difference between law and policy.

The nub of the matter is that nowhere in law does it say that one can't visit the UK for more than 6 months in any 12. What you have cited is the UKBA's own policy, which has no legal effect. It is exactly that: guidance and not law.

An ECO cannot refuse a visit visa application simply because the applicant has recently spent a prolonged period of time in the UK. It might be that such an application might be refused on the basis that the ECO doubts the applicant's intention to leave the UK at the end of the proposed trip in view of the fact that they only recently spent X amount of time in the UK, but it is the applicant's circumstances that will decide that, and not simply that they have recently spent x amount of time in the UK.

Therefore, to blithely cite a 6/12 'rule' is not only misleading, but negligent.

As ever: if you want accurate legal advice, see a reputable adviser.

Scouse.

[7by7]

I am fully aware of the guidance published to IOs/ECOs, and am as equally surprised that you do not understand the difference between law and policy.

I do, which is why I have always made it clear whenever this subject comes up that there is no such thing as a "6 months in 12 rule" and that is a "convention" which one may fall foul of if one cannot show that one has a genuine reason for spending so much time in the UK as a visitor.

An ECO cannot refuse a visit visa application simply because the applicant has recently spent a prolonged period of time in the UK. It might be that such an application might be refused on the basis that the ECO doubts the applicant's intention to leave the UK at the end of the proposed trip in view of the fact that they only recently spent X amount of time in the UK, but it is the applicant's circumstances that will decide that, and not simply that they have recently spent x amount of time in the UK.

Have you read the topic? If you had, you will see that this is what has been said; although using different words.

Therefore, to blithely cite a 6/12 'rule' is not only misleading, but negligent.

Kindly show us exactly where anyone in this topic has done so; I can't find it.

As ever: if you want accurate legal advice, see a reputable adviser.

Totally agree; forums such as this are for general advice, which many find helpful and useful, but if one wants a professional opinion one should consult, and pay for, a qualified professional.

Some qualified professionals are willing to offer free advice here, of course; others aren't.

[steveweaver99]

I have taken the scousers advice here and will probably apply for another visa for the xmas period, that seems a good enough reason to want to be together. Im not trying to get round visa rules and spoil it for the rest as you have inferred 7by7.

Other people have been successful so why not us, some of the people on this forum like to kick you down. They have no appreciation of other peoples circumstances.

Dont bother coming back with a snidy reply 7by7 because I dont want to hear it. You dont when when to stop sometimes.

After this visa my partner we will probably go for a settlement.

Edited October 8, 2010 by steveweaver99

[7by7]

You asked for advice and opinions, I offered you mine. You didn't care for them, and consider that means I'm kicking you when you're down and making snidy comments; so be it. Despite your remarks, I wish you luck.

I still think that her chances are very slim, but if she does succeed I would be grateful were you to post what arguments you used to convince the ECO that she is a genuine visitor. I am sure that this information would be a great help to others in your situation.

[the scouser]

However, the OP's girlfriend's reasons for being a genuine visitor will be particular to her, and can't per se be extrapolated. Therefore to say her success may be of help to others, is a non sequitur.

Perhaps the reason why some no longer give freely of advice is through ennui, although you couldn't possibly have been referring to me!

Scouse.

[7by7]

Quite, peoples circumstances are different, which is a point that many have tried to make to the OP. Just because others have spent more than 6 months out of 12 in the UK as a visitor does not mean that his girlfriend will be allowed to; it depends on the applicant's circumstances, the reasons for spending so much time in the UK as a visitor etc. Hence my use of the words "in your situation!"

Earlier you said

Therefore, to blithely cite a 6/12 'rule' is not only misleading, but negligent.

in response to which I asked you to show where anyone had done so. As you have not provided an example of this, will you now withdraw the remark and the inferred accusation of negligence?

[the scouser]

...will you now withdraw the remark and the inferred accusation of negligence?

That you inferred an accusation does not mean one was implied.

Scouse.

[7by7]

I guess that is the closest we will get to an admission of error from the normally infallible Scouser.