Pig Fcr'S In Thailand

[IsaanAussie]

Hi Pig People,

Some montha ago I posted a table of FCR rates for growing pigs. It was the best information to hand at the time but not based on Thai conditions. Since then I have been tracking the growth of a litter of my pigs and found that they seemed to lag behind those targets from the start. Recently I found a Thai industry produced chart which seems to fit my actual numbers much better. Especially for young pigs. I have yet to finish checking against feed consumption numbers so I cannot say these numbers are confirmed, but for those interested have a look at this chart. I would appreciate any comments or comparisons.

Book1.xls

Isaan Aussie

Edited to include excel as pdf's now appear to be not allowed

[IsaanAussie]

For those prospective pig farmers and to answer the most common question I get, "Is there a profit to be made in pig farming?" I have included another rough spreadsheet. It shows the table I posted before and I have added the feed codes I use, the cost and volumes involved.

The table details the actual costs for both a breeding to finish operation and for a grow and finish operation. In simple terms for where you breed the pigs or just buy them as piglets and feed them to finish at 100 kg. Currently the web sale price is 65 baht but that like most things is locally variable so I have listed the margins of a range of live weight prices under the current BKK price so comparisons can be made.

Note that I have used an industry standard overhead ratio or non-feed cost, of 30% for farrow/finish operations and 25% for growing.

As I said it is a bit rough but for those who want to get an understanding quickly, a few minutes figuring it out may be worthwhile.

Book2.xls

Isaan Aussie

PS. For those in the game already, hopefully it will provide a talking point despite the simplistic approach. I am sure your figures are more complex as are my own.

[RedBullHorn]

What is "Non feed cost (%)" ?

[IsaanAussie]

What is "Non feed cost (%)" ?

It covers general overhead and other costs such as vet fees or drug costs, labour, electricity, etc..... Industry standard is about 30 percent. Hence I calculated feed costs, assumed that was 70% and factored up accordingly. It does fit my numbers but the objective here was to provide a general guideline, not my chart of accounts.

IA

[IsaanAussie]

I issue an open invitation to those whose business is built around contract growing. What I have posted does not cover this and makes no claim to do so. Please if you are into a contract farming arrangement, take a minute or two to offer a guide as to how to approach that investment. We have all made more mistakes than we have kicked goals. Hopefully the purpose of this forum is to help others axoid the pitfalls

IA

[glomp]

So if im reading you correctly, to get a "reasonable" family providing income of 40k per month you would need to have quite a few of the critters.

Pigs sold	Total pigs
55	216,37		1186,55
59	68,39		375,05
61	50,96		279,48
63	40,61		222,73
65	33,76		185,13

Pigs sold is the amount divided by profits per 100kg pig "farrow to finish" from the excel files.

To always have the required amount of pigs each month one months worth of pigs are multiplied by 5,48 as the mean growing time in months.

This also assumes the taxman doesn't know where you live and no pigs get sick or die and work is free.

For pig farmers sake i hope my math sucks, much like my grades from school suggests

[IsaanAussie]

So if im reading you correctly, to get a "reasonable" family providing income of 40k per month you would need to have quite a few of the critters.

   Pigs sold    Total pigs
55    216,37        1186,55
59    68,39        375,05
61    50,96        279,48
63    40,61        222,73
65    33,76        185,13

Pigs sold is the amount divided by profits per 100kg pig "farrow to finish" from the excel files.

To always have the required amount of pigs each month one months worth of pigs are multiplied by 5,48 as the mean growing time in months.

This also assumes the taxman doesn't know where you live and no pigs get sick or die and work is free.

For pig farmers sake i hope my math sucks, much like my grades from school suggests

No Glomp your maths aren't that bad. You touched two key points for someone trying to make a living pig farming. First, yes you need to sell a lot of pigs and second, to have a continuous supply of 100 kg market ready pigs you need a lot, lot more.

Assume that you could house such a large number, the feed bill accumulates very quickly before you sell that first batch. Working capital is the potential shop stopper.

Isaan Aussie

[Khonwan]

<snip>

This also assumes the taxman doesn't know where you live <snip>

No tax payable on this scale of farming (assuming farm is not a registered company).

Rgds

Khonwan

[glomp]

So im not far out in my thinking. How many pigs is it reasonable to manage per person? Ie when do you need employees.

Also thanks for this and other good farming threads.

[RedBullHorn]

I issue an open invitation to those whose business is built around contract growing. What I have posted does not cover this and makes no claim to do so. Please if you are into a contract farming arrangement, take a minute or two to offer a guide as to how to approach that investment. We have all made more mistakes than we have kicked goals. Hopefully the purpose of this forum is to help others axoid the pitfalls

IA

Regarding my farming contract with this chap is that he is from a big farm runs family style, contract offered not from the feed company which i later found out but the contract from his own company are legal.

His farm houses 4500 pigs, located in Muang Phan south of Chiang Rai and he had build up quite a good reputation for been very easy going to all his clients. He have scouts searching for farmers who have a considerate amount of capital to invest and are professional in their trade...like me , not the regular livestock farmer with 1 or 2 ponds and 10 pigs in a shed....he's not interested in that.

Like my other supplier and wholesaler, he will arrange havesting of my catfishes which i have allocated a numbers of ponds to him and on credit term of 30 days on feed prior to havest meaning if i havest in 2 months and 10 days, i pay for feed only for the first month, credit on the second month and he is flexible on the 10 days.

For piggeries which i must commit at lease 80 piglets and i've negotiated 50 for a start and expand more on the later batch if things goes well, i build the sheds and he arrange for top quality piglets at 1'900 THB per pig from his farm and i will have to pay for the piglets and #1 feed and credit the rest of the feed #2,3,4. He also arrange for health inspections free of charge (for minor remedies) every week till the pigs are sold to his arranged wholesaler.

Payment are prompt and tranferred through ATM.

[fruity]

I issue an open invitation to those whose business is built around contract growing. What I have posted does not cover this and makes no claim to do so. Please if you are into a contract farming arrangement, take a minute or two to offer a guide as to how to approach that investment. We have all made more mistakes than we have kicked goals. Hopefully the purpose of this forum is to help others axoid the pitfalls

IA

Regarding my farming contract with this chap is that he is from a big farm runs family style, contract offered not from the feed company which i later found out but the contract from his own company are legal.

His farm houses 4500 pigs, located in Muang Phan south of Chiang Rai and he had build up quite a good reputation for been very easy going to all his clients. He have scouts searching for farmers who have a considerate amount of capital to invest and are professional in their trade...like me , not the regular livestock farmer with 1 or 2 ponds and 10 pigs in a shed....he's not interested in that.

Like my other supplier and wholesaler, he will arrange havesting of my catfishes which i have allocated a numbers of ponds to him and on credit term of 30 days on feed prior to havest meaning if i havest in 2 months and 10 days, i pay for feed only for the first month, credit on the second month and he is flexible on the 10 days.

For piggeries which i must commit at lease 80 piglets and i've negotiated 50 for a start and expand more on the later batch if things goes well, i build the sheds and he arrange for top quality piglets at 1'900 THB per pig from his farm and i will have to pay for the piglets and #1 feed and credit the rest of the feed #2,3,4. He also arrange for health inspections free of charge (for minor remedies) every week till the pigs are sold to his arranged wholesaler.

Payment are prompt and tranferred through ATM.

Providing all goes well, the above seems to be a reasonable set up. Just speaking with a guy the other day who lost over two million 'contract farming'! , NOT with Pigs, I add. Something I would never consider myself, much preferring to be my 'own boss' & not subject to a third parties whims. How many actually have a written contract I wonder?

Rearing pigs from weaners to out the door is the easiest way to go in the pig game; it requires little more than a degree of hard work & as has been pointed out a ready supply of cash; obviously, the more pigs, the more cash.

I am not one for 'spread sheets', forecasts & the like, in my book, it all comes down to a very simple profit / loss account. It is a while since we have kept any weaners to finish; the demand for our piglets is considerable & at the moment prices/ profits are very good, we can make more from a piglet than has been recently reported here as having been made from selling purchased as piglet-finished pigs, therefore, it doesn't make sense to me to be giving ourselves an extra four months work for what in real terms amounts to an additional 250 baht per head per month per pig kept.

As for FCR'S, the best of, usually go hand in hand with pigs who have excellent ADG's. Use sires with an ADG of 1.1-2 kg & an FCR of 1.7-9 kg and you should be on the right track.

Currently hand-rearing an 'orphaned' litter of nine piglets. It doesn't always go quite to plan!

Fruity

[IsaanAussie]

So im not far out in my thinking. How many pigs is it reasonable to manage per person? Ie when do you need employees.

Also thanks for this and other good farming threads.

Glomp,

This is a little like asking how long is a piece of string. It depends on how complex you choice to make your life.

If you use a hose to wash out the pens into a pond and have an automatic feed dispensing unit then the daily chores are not to bad. The operative word being daily, every day, twice. The first decision is therefore to commit personally to a 7 day a week 365 days a year work program regardless of the hours per day.

In my case I must be nuts because I dry muck out the pens before washing and compost all the manure with straw which needs to be chopped, the compost has to be turned and finished material bagged. I am even more crazy, I also use the compost as worm bedding and the worms need to be fed and I am starting mushroom farming. So my days are long and apart from the tasks listed I can usually fit in 3 or 4 hours to get other things done each day. Currently I am caring for 23 pigs single handed.

The second decision is the type of operation you intend to run. Obviously there are a lot of hours (and sleepless nights) involved in breeding that dont apply to a grow/finish operation. Thirdly, your level of knowledge. What you cannot do yourself has to be covered somehow.

I can't give you a direct answer as I dont know how to quantify by number of pigs alone. Perhaps others can?

Isaan Aussie

[IsaanAussie]

Fruity, really,

".....in my book" Indeed, when was the last time you could find your blue book?

"........ for 250 baht per month" Agreed, sometimes we do some crazy stuff. We keep pigs too long, build grower sheds we dont need, and all for 250 baht a month. Be consoled though. If its a positive entry on the ledger, all is forgiven.

".... sires with an FCR of 1.7" WOW get me some of that, and a bigger stall. Mine is 300 kg now and eats a good 4 kgs a day. At that rate Bert the boar will be 6ft tall by Christmas. I think FCR of 3.5 to 4 is all I want to achieve in a working boar.

Just gagging mate, we Aussie battlers like to take the wee wee every now and then.

IA

[Khonwan]

So im not far out in my thinking. How many pigs is it reasonable to manage per person? Ie when do you need employees.

Also thanks for this and other good farming threads.

As IsaanAussie implies, it depends. If you are only growing pigs (not breeding)and if you are using commercial feed only (not making your own) and if you have a power washer (and are not “nuts” like IsaanAusie ), 1 person can quite easily manage 500 pigs over an 8-9 hour day. I was growing around 140 at the same time: I found that it took me an average one minute per pig for feeding and cleaning.

By the way, I found growing pigs to be a recipe for financial disaster. You can make 1,000 baht or so per pig….or lose 1,000 baht or so per pig. With the none-existent market intelligence available to most farmers, you will have no idea of the price attainable until you are ready to sell…having already forked out a lot of money not to mention your “free” time/labour. I always now advise people to breed pigs instead, but then only if they are prepared for many sleepless nights (I was/am not). Making your own pig-feed is doable but demands good understanding of pig nutritional needs and attention to the nutritional balance of the feed…plus lots of time.

With respect to vets, be prepared to research and be your own vet. My experience of them here (when I was breeding cattle) is very negative in respect to their knowledge and willingness to get their nice office-shoes dirty.

Rgds

Khonwan

[glomp]

I realized after posting that i should have mentioned "to get a 9 to 5 workday". Khonwan covered it nicely.

I have never farmed in my life, i just like to check out numbers, returns and practices on farming because it intrigues me as a city person

As the chicken guy said, "i only got in to it because the family knew it". My might be fam knows playing the lottery and directing others to work so no farming for me

[sezze]

So im not far out in my thinking. How many pigs is it reasonable to manage per person? Ie when do you need employees.

Also thanks for this and other good farming threads.

The brother in law from my GF works in a pigfarm . Together with 4 other people they take care of 2000 pigs , fish and ducks ( the fish and ducks are a sidebusiness and i do not know how much ) . Each of the persons got 400 pigs under their care , and if someone doesn't show up from work the job get's divided by the other people . So 400 seems quite a normal amount which you can handle alone .

[IsaanAussie]

As IsaanAussie implies, it depends. If you are only growing pigs (not breeding)and if you are using commercial feed only (not making your own) and if you have a power washer (and are not "nuts" like IsaanAusie ), 1 person can quite easily manage 500 pigs over an 8-9 hour day. I was growing around 140 at the same time: I found that it took me an average one minute per pig for feeding and cleaning.

By the way, I found growing pigs to be a recipe for financial disaster. You can make 1,000 baht or so per pig….or lose 1,000 baht or so per pig. With the none-existent market intelligence available to most farmers, you will have no idea of the price attainable until you are ready to sell…having already forked out a lot of money not to mention your "free" time/labour. I always now advise people to breed pigs instead, but then only if they are prepared for many sleepless nights (I was/am not). Making your own pig-feed is doable but demands good understanding of pig nutritional needs and attention to the nutritional balance of the feed…plus lots of time.

With respect to vets, be prepared to research and be your own vet. My experience of them here (when I was breeding cattle) is very negative in respect to their knowledge and willingness to get their nice office-shoes dirty.

Rgds

Khonwan

Khonwan,

Time to own up to having a power washer, great tool.

Your comments on the ease of losing money growing pigs are spot on. IMHO you have to try to stick to your prices when selling in the local "special occasion" market and be prepared to say no. Every potential customer is looking for a bargain and like most Thai shoppers will drive miles to save 10 baht. There is always a local farmer out there who is "hot for money" and will sell cheaply. So the reality is you have to be flexible, understand your current position and your options for selling your stock because that what your pigs are, stock, tradeable commodities just like cans of soup or tractor parts.

I am very interested in making feed to reduce cost. Your comments on nutritional control and cost comparisons I have done lead me to believe that completely replacing commercial feeds is not doable in my case at this time. The best I can hope for is to produce supplemental feeds which will allow me to use cheaper feeds by boosting the content. Consider a pig at 60 to 70 Kgs that eats code 954 (60 to 90 Kg) at 340 baht/bag. Increase the protein levels by making alternatives to fish meal and I could use 955 at 280 baht. Thats a 60 baht per bag saving by bumping up the protein level by 2%.

So Glomp, my office bound number crunching friend, play with these numbers.

By farming worms and or BSF larvae using the pig and other farm wastes, I can produce vermi-meal at 40+% protein with the only cost being drying and grinding the meal. To the bag of 955 I have to add (30 kg x 2% at 40% etc..) around 150 grams of vermimeal, that needs 300 grams of worms. So is it worth it? The meal is worth 60 baht (on feed cost difference) or around 400 baht per kilo. The compost worms can yield a 300% population growth in a period of 3 months just by feeding them cow manure. WOW, make more and sell it to people is the same position, not so fast.... Lets do a reality check. Fish meal is currently some 25 to 30 baht/kg and to start the worm farm, worms are 1,500 baht a kg.

I can save 60 baht less costs per bag. To sell the meal, I would have to beat the fish meal price which would mean some 20 baht/kg retail at maximum. Thats 2kg of worms that would cost 3,000 baht that could be sold for 40 baht. Nar, dont think so, I will save my 60 baht and leave the worms produce more castings which reduce my fertiliser costs.

On the vet issue, I am lucky currently I have a tame team of local vets added by an experienced herdsman who don't mind dirty boots.

Isaan Aussie

[RedBullHorn]

i've been thinking of this for a long time ever since i started raising pigs to integrate with my catfishes...why can't i use my fishes' pellet feed on my pigs? the #2 feed pellet are level 30% protein, if i decide to mix a quarter bag to the pigs' meal, will the pig "knock" and die due to too high protein level?......hmm .....

[Khonwan]

IsaanAusie and RedBullHorn, you should understand that pig-feed (and, indeed, fish-feed) cannot simply be measured by the amount protein; it can in the case of cattle-feed, which makes production of cattle-feed really easy.

“Quality” of protein is much more important than the amount of protein. By “quality” we mean its building bricks - amino acids. Pigs (and all non-ruminants) have very specific requirements. Now that I’m away from pig farming, I’ve forgotten more than I learned (!) but you can easily Google for lots of info on this. The most “limiting” amino acid in the case of pigs is lysine.

I think it is absolutely ridiculous that commercial pig-feed in Thailand does not indicate the content amount of amino acids, particularly the lysine content. I always asked the sales managers of the pig-feed companies (before ordering their feed) what the lysine content was – they always responded that they did not know and that it was their company’s trade secret. I would therefore make it a condition of my purchase that I would obtain the figures (depends on the age range of the pigs, hence varying protein percentage feeds have varying figures for the lysine percentage of the protein). These figures were then provided by senior managers or their nutritionists – I found the figures similar between the companies I dealt with and within recommended norms.

On a side note, I found it very strange that Maizefarmer was prepared to make and sell fish-feed and cattle-feed but not pig-feed (he refused to produce pig-feed, I think on the basis that he has no experience of pigs) – the demands of fish-feed production are no different than pig-feed…just different ingredients. Perhaps if he ever comes back he will address this point.

RedBullHorn, excessive protein (to address your point) should do no harm but is a waste of money since the excess is simply excreted. My concern with this, and indeed with the idea of supplementing feed with farm veg (without analyzing the content and adjusting total-diet amino acid contents), is that the pigs will not therefore get the recommended amino acids as a percentage of their total diet. The pigs can only eat so much therefore they will probably be getting less than the recommended amino acids by stuffing them with cheaper alternatives.

Rgds

Khonwan

[IsaanAussie]

Khonwan,

I bow to your experience but will add that the worm and larvae meals both contain good levels of amino acids, lysine in particular. The BSF larvae contain too much fat but the oil can be expressed prior to making the meal. I would like to formulate a supplement based on these meals plus some vegetable matter such as duckweed. Whilst I have done a lot of reading on this I will need to seek some help from the experts. Other products such as silage, sweet potato, maize, sunflower meal are all under study and have been for some time.

Currently I use commercial feeds and will remain doing so until I can be sure of equal or better results. I completely agreed that cost is not the primary issue, lean pork from happy pigs is my prime motivation. As always any and all advice is welcome.

Isaan Aussie

[fruity]

Fruity, really,

".....in my book" Indeed, when was the last time you could find your blue book?

"........ for 250 baht per month" Agreed, sometimes we do some crazy stuff. We keep pigs too long, build grower sheds we dont need, and all for 250 baht a month. Be consoled though. If its a positive entry on the ledger, all is forgiven.

".... sires with an FCR of 1.7" WOW get me some of that, and a bigger stall. Mine is 300 kg now and eats a good 4 kgs a day. At that rate Bert the boar will be 6ft tall by Christmas. I think FCR of 3.5 to 4 is all I want to achieve in a working boar.

Just gagging mate, we Aussie battlers like to take the wee wee every now and then.

IA

IA,

Old Bert surely will be a sight to see, will plan a trip for Xmas:)

If memory serves me correctly, FCR'S / ADG etc are calculated over a 90 day trial period during the pigs main growth spurt, 2-5 months of age.

Don't get me wrong, however, at this particular moment in time it doesn't make sense for us to be filling up those new grower sheds:) As with all things, this will change in due course I'm sure. It's not so much the work, it is the working capital required to keep those sheds 'humming' for the additional gains, which are low just now.

I totally agree with Konwan regarding protein quality & likewise, would love to be able to learn just what the amino acid / lysene contents are in manufactured feed?

Cheers

Fruity