Fun Question

[Delight]

What is the origin of the word

ปากกา bpàak-gaa

ie a Pen

Edited September 22, 2010 by Delight

[mikenyork]

I have been told that it is the word "Parker" pronounced in Thai. According to this (admittedly informal) source, Parker was the first company to market ink pens in Thailand. I suspect the same is true of the word for stapler, which is แม็ค but I don't know the brand derivation. Xerox is an example of this same phenomenon in English. My "key informant/significant other" informs me that แม็ค only applies to large staplers and that small staplers like the one we have for home use are known as "เซตเปิ้ล"

[SimonN]

Crow's beak (same shape as the tip of a quill pen), Khmer etymology, I believe.

[Delight]

Crow's beak (same shape as the tip of a quill pen), Khmer etymology, I believe.

I would have said the Parker answer.

Your reply is much more convincing and completely kills the 'Parker' question in a pub quiz.(Then again I may get away with it. Nobody will know about the shape of crow's beaks(except you-of course))

I'm glad that I asked it now.

[dobadoy]

Simon's got it right.

Parker is spelled ปาร์กเกอร์ not ปากกา.

A Parker pen is called, not surprisingly, ปากกาปาร์กเกอร์.

Totally unrelated (and boy, would they have milked it for the marketing if it were otherwise!).

Edited September 22, 2010 by dobadoy

[Benchamas]

Crow's beak (same shape as the tip of a quill pen), Khmer etymology, I believe.

I agree !!! This is my personal joke with my friends.

This kind of word is called คำประสม

คำประสม = Combining 2 words and the meaning totally changes.เช่น

ปากกา แม่น้ำ น้ำแข็ง ผัดไท ตำรา

[Rikker]

The Parker story, though patently false, is surprisingly widespread. I've heard it from Thais and foreigners alike, which surprises me a bit because you'd think the true origin would be intuitive for Thais.

Formerly both the terms ปากไก่ and ปากกา were used, though nowadays ปากไก่ is rarely seen, and then only to refer to quill pens.

I don't think there's any reason to believe ปากกา is of Khmer etymology, though. Khmer only appears to have the word ปาก in phrases it has borrowed from Thai, like ปากกา and ปากน้ำ.

(Oh, one other sidenote to Benchamas: ตำรา isn't an example of คำประสม because it's only one word. It's borrowed from Khmer, and derives from the word ตรา, also a Khmer word, meaning 'stamp' or 'seal'. In former times a treatise or reference work would have been affixed with the seal of the authority who approved or issued it. The process by which the word ตรา becomes ตำรา is common in Khmer, and such borrowings into Thai abound -- ตรวจ > ตำรวจ, อาจ > อำนาจ, เสียง > สำเนียง, อวย > อำนวย, etc.)

[tombkk]

I have been told that it is the word "Parker" pronounced in Thai. According to this (admittedly informal) source, Parker was the first company to market ink pens in Thailand. I suspect the same is true of the word for stapler, which is แม็ค but I don't know the brand derivation. Xerox is an example of this same phenomenon in English. My "key informant/significant other" informs me that แม็ค only applies to large staplers and that small staplers like the one we have for home use are known as "เซตเปิ้ล"

OK, it's not Parker for the pens, that has been clarified.

It's still "Mack" or แม็ค for the staplers, I believe. Very much like "Xerox" is used for photocopiers (noun) or photocopying (verb) in English. Someone please prove me wrong about แม็ค.

[Benchamas]

: ตำรา isn't an example of คำประสม because it's only one word. It's borrowed from Khmer, and derives from the word ตรา, also a Khmer word, meaning 'stamp' or 'seal'. In former times a treatise or reference work would have been affixed with the seal of the authority who approved or issued it. The process by which the word ตรา becomes ตำรา is common in Khmer, and such borrowings into Thai abound -- ตรวจ > ตำรวจ, อาจ > อำนาจ, เสียง > สำเนียง, อวย > อำนวย, etc.)

Many thanks !!!

Embarrassing me

[SoftWater]

I wonder if anyone can clear up one of my (more recent) confusions.

For years, I always thought the guy at my photocopy service said แม็กได้ไหม when I took a bunch of pages for him to copy. But recently I came across the verb

มัด

[CLAS] bundle; bunch; package; parcel; faggot; truss; sheaf Ex. เขาหิ้วไม้ไผ่ได้ถึงเที่ยวละ 7 มัด น้อยคนที่จะทำได้อย่างเขา

[V] bind; tie; fasten; wrap S.ผูก Ex. ลูกน้องมัดหญ้าคาเป็นท่อนๆ แล้วยัดเข้าไปในยาง

(NECTEC Lexitron 2 TH-EN)

With my ears not being the best, I'm now wondering whether he was really saying มัด and not แม็ก.

Any thoughts?

[Delight]

I wonder if anyone can clear up one of my (more recent) confusions.

For years, I always thought the guy at my photocopy service said แม็กได้ไหม when I took a bunch of pages for him to copy. But recently I came across the verb

มัด

I cannot find the word แม็ก

So I guess he us saying มัด ได้ไหม

of course มัด also means to to 'tie' in the bondage sense. Maybe he has a hidden agenda

[kriswillems]

It's still "Mack" or แม็ค for the staplers, I believe. Very much like "Xerox" is used for photocopiers (noun) or photocopying (verb) in English. Someone please prove me wrong about แม็ค.

I agree it's แม็ค for stapler. The official word is เครื่องเย็บกระดาษ, but I never heard anyone using that word.

People also use เครื่องถ่ายเอกสาร for the copy machine, and for the verb ถ่ายเอกสาร.

I found 2 other words in my dictionary for "making a photocopy".

ทำสำเนา

อัดสำเนา

I never heard anyone using อัดสำเนา (but that probably doesn't mean it's not used).

For the word "copy" people use สำเนา on all official documents. For instance:

สำเนาทะเบียนบ้าน : a copy of the house registration book

Edited September 23, 2010 by kriswillems

[GarryP]

I wonder if anyone can clear up one of my (more recent) confusions.

For years, I always thought the guy at my photocopy service said แม็กได้ไหม when I took a bunch of pages for him to copy. But recently I came across the verb

มัด

[CLAS] bundle; bunch; package; parcel; faggot; truss; sheaf Ex. เขาหิ้วไม้ไผ่ได้ถึงเที่ยวละ 7 มัด น้อยคนที่จะทำได้อย่างเขา

[V] bind; tie; fasten; wrap S.ผูก Ex. ลูกน้องมัดหญ้าคาเป็นท่อนๆ แล้วยัดเข้าไปในยาง

(NECTEC Lexitron 2 TH-EN)

With my ears not being the best, I'm now wondering whether he was really saying มัด and not แม็ก.

Any thoughts?

He is just asking you if you want the pages stapled together. Although normally they would simply say something like "max mai?" Probably the most common brand of staples found in Thailand is the Max brand spelled แม็กซ์.

[Benchamas]

YES !

Thai people say:

Max for staple

Xerox for photocopy

This is because of the popular brands and we think we already speak Eng. There are some other words that Thai people get confused :

In trend for trendy

Over !!! for exaggerating

[mikenyork]

คุณ Benchamas ครับ: doesn't เว่อร์ also mean excessive (which has a negative connotation)?

And although native speakers would be more likely to say "trendy" than "in trend", one can still understand what is being said.

My favorite "borrowed word" whose meaning really changes completely from English into Thai is ซีเรียส which, as far as I can discern is a synonym for เครียด but which in English (serious) has a completely different meaning of เอาจริงเอาจัง

To me the shift in meaning reflects the "don't worry, be happy" that is part of the culture in LOS. (Offered with respect and affection, no criticism implied).

[Benchamas]

คุณ Benchamas ครับ: doesn't เว่อร์ also mean excessive (which has a negative connotation)?

And although native speakers would be more likely to say "trendy" than "in trend", one can still understand what is being said.

My favorite "borrowed word" whose meaning really changes completely from English into Thai is ซีเรียส which, as far as I can discern is a synonym for เครียด but which in English (serious) has a completely different meaning of เอาจริงเอาจัง

To me the shift in meaning reflects the "don't worry, be happy" that is part of the culture in LOS. (Offered with respect and affection, no criticism implied).

YES !!!

I forgot about "serious" for เครียด ค่ะ Good call

The reason why I mentioned these words just because I do not want ppl to get confused by borrowed Eng words kha

[SoftWater]

I wonder if anyone can clear up one of my (more recent) confusions.

For years, I always thought the guy at my photocopy service said แม็กได้ไหม when I took a bunch of pages for him to copy. But recently I came across the verb

มัด

[CLAS] bundle; bunch; package; parcel; faggot; truss; sheaf Ex. เขาหิ้วไม้ไผ่ได้ถึงเที่ยวละ 7 มัด น้อยคนที่จะทำได้อย่างเขา

[V] bind; tie; fasten; wrap S.ผูก Ex. ลูกน้องมัดหญ้าคาเป็นท่อนๆ แล้วยัดเข้าไปในยาง

(NECTEC Lexitron 2 TH-EN)

With my ears not being the best, I'm now wondering whether he was really saying มัด and not แม็ก.

Any thoughts?

He is just asking you if you want the pages stapled together. Although normally they would simply say something like "max mai?" Probably the most common brand of staples found in Thailand is the Max brand spelled แม็กซ์.

Thanks Garry. I wasn't in any doubt about the meaning. Rather I meant what word was he actually saying แม็กซ์ (thanks, I didn't know it had a silent ซ์) or มัด ?

Implied in that question was another: assuming he is using the brand name as a verb ( a common linguistic trick, as in 'to xerox' and 'to hoover' and 'to google' to name but a few), would it nevertheless be correct to use the verb มัด in this context and mean 'to staple'?

Edited September 23, 2010 by SoftWater

[anchan42]

Just a observation on ปากกา ‘s pronunciation. ปากกา that means pen usually pronounced ปักกา while crow beak as in ปากเหยี่ยวปากกา

pronounced ปากกา. That’s from my quite unreliable ears.

[anchan42]

Thanks Garry. I wasn't in any doubt about the meaning. Rather I meant what word was he actually saying แม็กซ์ (thanks, I didn't know it had a silent ซ์) or มัด ?

Implied in that question was another: assuming he is using the brand name as a verb ( a common linguistic trick, as in 'to xerox' and 'to hoover' and 'to google' to name but a few), would it nevertheless be correct to use the verb มัด in this context and mean 'to staple'?

It is more likely to be แม็กซ์ than มัด. มัด means to tie up with rope, something you would do with a stack of old news paper.

[SoftWater]

Just a observation on ปากกา 's pronunciation. ปากกา that means pen usually pronounced ปักกา while crow beak as in ปากเหยี่ยวปากกา

pronounced ปากกา. That's from my quite unreliable ears.

Good point. This is a another example of something I've mentioned in other threads, where the spelling totally misleads you as to the correct pronunciation.

The formal spelling of 'pen' says the first vowel is long, but as you point out, its actually pronounced short in speech. More reason not to rely on reading as a guide to speaking. Listen to the native speakers!

Edit: Thanks Anchan for the answer to my question, too!

Edited September 23, 2010 by SoftWater

[GarryP]

I think if you were to avoid using the word MAX when talking about stapling paper, you would have to go with เย็บกระดาษ instead.

[Rikker]

I found 2 other words in my dictionary for "making a photocopy".

ทำสำเนา

อัดสำเนา

I never heard anyone using อัดสำเนา (but that probably doesn't mean it's not used).

For the word "copy" people use สำเนา on all official documents. For instance:

สำเนาทะเบียนบ้าน : a copy of the house registration book

In more formal use, ถ่ายสำเนา 'to photocopy' is used as both transitive and intransitive verb, as in ถ่ายสำเนาบัตรประชาชน 'make a copy of your ID card'. The term ถ่ายเอกสาร is used only intransitively, as seen on signs advertising photocopy services. ทำสำเนา makes me think more of copying CDs. Maybe a native speaker can confirm whether you can use ทำสำเนา with photocopies or not. อัดสำเนา sounds outdated, probably used in the days of mimeographing, because อัด means to press. (But then again we still say อัดเทป or อัดเสียง, which is probably leftover from the days of pressing records.)

As for Xerox, I've also heard it shortened to ซี.

[AjarnPasa]

Here's the stapler question sorted Bottom left and top right give us both the spellings