Pigs 101 (A Start)

[IsaanAussie]

This is Randall Ellis,

Thanks for the compliment, it is appreciated. We do our best to be the best,

Randy

www.SurinFarm.com

HI CMPF,

Glad to welcome you to the sty in the sky. I am sure most of the pigsters here would really appreciate the information you shared with me about standard farms If you care to post it.

Regards

IA

[ChiangMaiPigFarmer]

A COMMENT: I DO NOT WANT TO SOUND LIKE I KNOW EVERYTHING ABOUT PIGS IN THAILAND. I DO KNOW A LITTLE ABOUT A SMALLER PIG FARM (100 SOWS) AND WOULD BE HAPPY TO SHARE WHAT I KNOW. EVERY DAY I AM LEARNING, EVERY DAY I AM ASKING QUESTIONS, EVERY DAY I ATTEMPT TO BECOME SMARTER.

FIRST SERIES OF CONVERSATION I WOULD LIKE TO COMMENT ON: ORGANIC PIG FARMING IN CHIANG MAI

I was asked recently about Chiang Mai and organic pigs. Following is most of my reply to that person:

Farms like our farm (Surin Farm, pedigree pig farm) raise pigs that have no growth hormones or other additives. It is against our agreement with the guidelines of being a Thai Government Contract Farm and soon to be a Thai Government Standard Farm. (A side note: to become a standard farm you need to attend a government meeting about what a standard farm is and how it operates. The local livestock office has had us listed as a standard farm for years but there has been no classes given by the government in over four years; the class is required for certification. So, for four years no one in the north of Thailand have been fully approved as a standard farm. That class was finally held last week so now it is a matter of getting the letter from them and submitting our application that has been filed out for over four years.)

Finding a farm that does not use any antibiotics is really going to be hard. A pig is a very fragile animal requiring much care and medical intervention. We have a team of veterinarians (BACO from BKK) that often visit our farm and provide directions along with sending their northern customers to our farm. Our farm is also used for Thailand’s livestock training as to what is a model farm (they have sent people from all over Thailand here for training). So, I think we are as good of a model as can be found. BUT we do use antibiotics.

If the person wants an 100% drug free piglet to raise I can provide one to them IF they are willing to pay for any piglet I set aside for them that dies from lack of medical attention. If the person wants a finished pig at 100kg that has never had any vaccination or antibiotics I cannot provide that as it is against the government rules and regulations for our farm, and any other government controlled/inspected farm. If they want one that has had only the government required shots with minimal antibiotic intervention we are probably as close as they can get.

Note: we are not a finishing farm, we sell piglets. We do have some finish pigs that we raise when a pig conformity does not match our standards for customers sale. We then keep those piglets and raise them to 100kg market.

I can also direct them to owners of what we call village pigs that have had NO care at all. They are raised by village people using whatever feed stuff is available and diarrhea is controlled by the feeding of guava leaves (which we also attempt to use whenever possible).

If they work with a farm like ours we are required to give our pigs foot-an-mouth vaccination and swine flu vaccinations. See a site I wrote for BACO for more information - http://biotechagribusiness.info/Detailed%20Information/PRoutineVacation.html This site also has a large section where you can look up indications with what shot you should administer. Note: this site was totally done by my research and I am not a vet and do not have any training, so what you read is what I found, could be wrong.........

Also note: It is my understanding based on working with the local livestock office that butcher shops that butcher for the large chain stores are REQUIRED to purchase pigs raised and inspected by the government, that is raised on a standard farm.

Local Butcher: that is no problem to arrange from them (note: this is an operation that butchers for small market customers, not for chain stores). There is a butcher shop right here in Sanpatong they can use. Depending on the size of the butchered pig, it will cost about 225 baht to butcher. Here again a comment is needed: butchering means removing the hair, cutting the pig into head, feet, front shoulders, ribs, and rear hams. Intestines and blood are also returned. There is no “packaging” of meat, you bring a large cooler and pack your meat into the cooler. An ice plant is located very close to the butcher so you can purchase ice to pack the meat. In the USA I would bring in the pigs and have it returned in package portions for my family size, all pre-frozen – not here! Here you do your own packaging.

As to animal welfare: On our farm a pig, all pigs, are treated with dignity and care. If a buyer picks up a pig and harms that pig while loading they are not allowed back on the farm. Any aggressive pig is immediately culled from our farm. The pigs here are all friendly lovely animals. We have a large white boar that is happy to stand with his feet up on the side of his cage and have a conversation with you. I think he would love to kiss you but has had no takers to date.

Visitations to the farm can be arranged BUT the visitor needs to come with clean clothes that have not been on a pig farm.

SECOND SUBJECT IN THE FORUM TO WHICH I WOULD LIKE TO REPLY:

Best time to purchase a pig. Like I said, we sell piglets. Normally we sell at 45 days of age or more which is around 13 kg. We sell at the government posted price IF that price is not forced so low that the price is completely out of range (and the large companies do force the price down to put us small farmers out of business - price piglet down, price feed up - out of business). I will not sell for 1,000 or 1,200 as an example. If someone wants a cheaper priced piglet they need to purchase it closer to the time of weaning WHICH is really a bad idea. Piglets need time to mature on the farm where they were born! Under about 40 days and you could have problems with your newly purchased piglets not being able to take the transport and not able to adapt to their new environment (packed full of new germs and stress).

After a piglet hits about 18 kg I will also be very hesitant to sell it until it gets to about 90 kg. The FCR ratio just does not work to sell a finishing pig when it is mid-sized. The farmer will lose money if they sell at the government set index price. Why? The price of feed for a piglet moving up the weight chain is the highest when it is young, it is the cheapest when the pig gets up around 70kg. So selling the pig at 90 or more kg allows me to average out the cost of feed and make some money.

A LAST COMMENT

If you want to learn about AI visit our site www.SurinFarm.com where you can learn all that i have learned about AI.

Good luck to all, pig farming is precarious,

Randy

[COXYATCITY]

Randy ,thanks very much for sharing a lot of good info,,

[ChiangMaiPigFarmer]

You are welcome.

The link that is truncated in the message is www.biotechagribusiness.com

There you will find a lot of information about drugs and indications.

Once again I must state I wrote the site without help so there can be mistakes, I am just a pig farmer not a vet.

You can also look at work I am doing with lensless microscopes;the future of microscopy - hopefully that future will happen soon. The future will have you put a sperm sample into a small lensfree microscope and on your PC or cell phone all morphology and motility and density information will be displayed. Extented applications will provide the formula for mixing extender and other information.

In Thailand AI is a must to keep diesease off your farm. Do not allow the traveling boar to bring germs to your farm. Microscopes in Thailand are expensive but if you want to do AI let me know as I am selling a scope for around 8k baht (while waiting for the lensfree to come to market).

See www.NanoBlackHole.com and www.Micro-Scoping.com for additional information.

Take care,

Randy

[pigeonjake]

hi grunts,

welcome mate,

i have just a question for you, are you planing to run your pigs outside,?

if so arnt you worried about the sun,?

i get a lot of joy from keeping pigs, and there is a little bit of money to be made from them, i dont do organic or anything else like that, i dont have a big falang base near to me,

take care and good luck with it all,

and keep us informed,

jake

[revar]

Anyone had experience with bloat? I have a 70kg and 25kg pig suffering from this. Grotesque swollen stomach, loosing weight rapidly. Spine very visible now. Tried tylosin, enro, vegetable oil, eno. Nothing works. They still eat and shit a little bit. Any advise is appreciated. Two vets looked at them and told me it may be torsion

But sin e they still shit I'm not ready to give them up.

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Edited June 23, 2013 by revar

[ChiangMaiPigFarmer]

I just did some research and see that: Gas and bloating is a sign that food is not being digested correctly by the body. An inadequate intake of water will cause excessive stomach bloating.

[revar]

I have been ensuring that they drinkers enough by giving them water from the hose and bottle. Also there was no diet change when this happened. My gut feeling (No pun intended): It looks like they are slowly wasting away because they can only eat a little because their stomachs are full of air.I used tylosin to combat bacteria which promote fermentation. This worked somewhat but I need to get the air out of the stomach. Anyone k now's a way to make the . Break gas?

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[revar]

Can't refuse these little ones. They are so cute.

Take a lot of care but I normal get them to 100kg in 4-4.5 months.

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[Grunts]

Hi Pigeonjake,

Yes I am planning to run them outside and almost totally free-range and pasture-fed (with dietary support where necessary). I am now planning the acreage so that there is plenty of access to shade, fresh water and shelter. I am also considering raising the first few cohorts before the really hot season kicks in (June - Feb). The concept is to look at recreating as close to a typical environment for them to forage, snout and graze. This is a hobby that I plan to enjoy in my retirement. I am planning to seed a range of different grasses, and veg along with fruit trees. I have to identify which will be most effective as pasture feed and those that suit the local environment and climate. I have a steep learning curve but that is all part of the fun.

[pigeonjake]

now then grunts,

i see you say your planing to seed grasses ect,

youll have to be doing this every year,? and rest the areas that you just seeded,

reason i say this, is ive got a freind at laughton near gainsborough. redhill farm, known for there free range pigs and produce from them,

after the pigs have been on an area of land there is nothing there growing, and i think he still does buthe grows turf for a year, then put the pigs back on that area,

i had some sows with an outside area and there was nothing left growing after they had been on there for a while, they were even snouting down to the tree roots,,lol,

but saying that if you have the land its a good idea, just have to keep well on top of worms, ect,,

but i will admit they do look well outside,

all the best jake

[thedoctor]

hi all

i'm looking to buy a good sty cleaning brush. to scrub the floors

i have bought a nylon wet floor scrubing brush from homepro just to test it but i think it will last about 2 weeks

any idea's about the best brush to use.

also doe's anybody use the electric water presure blasters ?

AAAnd i'v noticed fly strike on a couple of my pigs that dont want to heal because the other pigs are picking the sores

i have some purple spray i got from the supply shop in kaset [ forgot the name ] but its not working .

and on a side note i got the vet to castrate one pigglet that wasnt cut when i got the group, he's been in a pen resting for a week and yesterday i tried to put him back in the group but they wouldnt accept him back , they all picked on him so he now has a private appartment all to himself

ill never do that again

regards mick

[revar]

Hi Mick.

I use nylon brushes with an extended handle (Bamboo pole). The wooden handle breaks long before the nylon wears away.

full pens I clean with pumped groundwater from a half inch hose with a glued in 0.25 inch nossle to create more pressure. One person scrubs, one hoses. 13 pens take 2-3 hours with 2 persons. Empty pens and walls I clean With a high pressure cleaner.

Using it always takes to long.

I leave castrated pigs in their own pen. Even with bigger operations they stay with their mates. Never had a problem with this.

I do the following to put pigs together, for instance combining 3 pens with only 2-3 pigs left.

If you have an empty pen: place the castrated pig in it and start moving the other pigs to that pen one by one. I. Do this at the rate of 2a day (morning and 12.00). Since they all move to a new pen they don't defend their home. Stay and hit any biters. Give them bags and bottles to play with. There will be some biting to determine ranking but this method often works for me.

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[revar]

For the sores the purple spray is antiseptic and most pigs don't like it. Use a lot 4 times a day. If they are realy open give the pig an amoxylin injection (1Cc for 10kg) 3 days in a row. This is valid for any open wound.

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[thedoctor]

revar.

thanks for the reply, i have the play bottle's in the pens sort of like yourself,and i will look into the amoxylin recomendation

thanks again

mick

[Grunts]

Hi Pigeonjake, Yes the little blighters are very effectual and I have seen them clear the ground of just about every bit of grass and root. But that is the point. We will free-range, strip farm them. The quantity of soil that they ingest by their natural snouting creates a much more efficient system for digestion. Will need to check on the level of internal infestation. Any land that has had pigs on it should be rested after 2-3 years. It can become pig-sick. I am hoping I have enough land to be able to move them around without too much problem. My main concern at the moment is water. Does anyone know someone who has a mini-tractor to help me turn the land? Or at least somewhere to rent one.

[Falang Nang Fa]

I'm looking for a pure Large White sow from around 6 or 7 months. I prefer around Khon Kaen or transport can be talk about.

Also I look for pure crossbreed sows (father Landrace, mother Large White)

Who can help me on my search.

Thx

[ChiangMaiPigFarmer]

Grunts, I have a tractor, not a ride on but walk behind, that has a tiller and a plow attachment. It has a brand new motor that has never been started. I picked it up from a man needing some money. I paid the man 35,000 baht for the tractor and 13,000 baht for the motor. If you want details and pictures contact me at [email protected]

CPP Farm, I have two breed LW / LR and purebred LW. If you want details and pictures contact me at [email protected]

The pigs are just south of Chiang Mai - look at mapsgoogle and look up Surin Farm and select the Thai farm to see where I am located. There are local transporters that would move them and being a government contract farm I can obtain the move permits.

[Grunts]

Hi ChiangMaiPigFarmer,

You are most generous.

Thank you for the details of your tractor. I will go the site and take a look.

I really want to turn the soil first time around down to 3-4 feet if possible.

Will it be able to deal with that kind of tilling?

I am hoping to get up north sometime at the end of this month.

I would like to call and make a point of coming over to the farm to take a look at your stock and have a chat.

One question: do you offer abattoir services?

[slapout]

About the only device that will go to a depth of 3 foot behind a tractor, readily found in Thailand is a subsoiler. It does not turn the soil. A better description is, it rips the soil to the mentioned depth. They have been around for decades and are available in Thailand, as I understand. Their positive contribution to the sequence of working the soil.crop rotation, etc is debatable, depending on who you talk to.

[ChiangMaiPigFarmer]

A walk behind tractor will never go that deep!

There are local buthcers that will cut up your 100kg pig for about 250 baht. They provide no freezer service.

Your are welcome to stop by any time. The only thing I ask is to let me know before hand and to wear clothes that have not been on a farm since laundry.

[Grunts]

Thanks Slapout for your tip on a 'subsoiler' which I have not heard of before. I will look at renting one if need be.

Thanks also for the info re butchers. That is a very reasonable price.

Is it possible for me to ask them to butcher in a particular way so I can get the 'cuts' the way I want them?

I would love to come over to the farm ChiangMaiPigFarmer and will of course wear appropriate attire and will call and arrange a date and time beforehand.

Do anyone know of any other organic, free-range, pasture-fed pig farmers in Thailand?

[ChiangMaiPigFarmer]

No, no telling a butcher what you want! These are not the butchers that we think about that do cuts and packaging.

A butcher here is going to rmove the hair and then cut the pig into large chunks. You will get feet, head, shoulders, rumps, ribs and a intestines and blood when you pick up the pig.

You need to bring your own cooler and your own ice to cool the butchered pig down (there is a close by ice plant).

Sorry, no cuts and no packaginig,

Randy

[ChiangMaiPigFarmer]

I am posting this as an FYI and to hear your comments?

Randy

This is a posting I just made on the internet site, Pig Industry; http://en.engormix.com/MA-pig-industry/management/forums/sow-gestation-crates-open-t5835/124-p0.htm#post16305

Sanpatong, Chiang Mai, Thailand

Pig farmer

Re: Sow Gestation Crates vs Open Housing

07/02/2013 |

My wife and I have an 100 sow / 80 farrow farm in Thailand. From my observation of watching gilts moving from open housing into stalls they do not appear to mind. Actually, it is my opinion, they enjoy the confined area. I have watched “neighbor” pigs get mad and want to strike out at their neighbor and cannot. I have watched sows moving back-and-forth from housing stalls into farrowing stalls and they are never hesitant to return to a stall, they move right into the stall and then adjust to their new home. I have left doors open and the pig almost never wants to leave their own personal stall. Actually, it is hard to get a pig to leave their private home!


In my head I cannot understand why a pig finds comfort in their own little private world (stalls) but then I am not a pig and cannot think like a pig. Could it be they find comfort in not having to confront situations of altercations with other pigs? Maybe they find comfort in having the perfect amount of feed given to them twice a day? Maybe they find comfort in the personal up close observations from their handlers making sure they are healthy and taking care of their problems? Maybe a sow likes being able to lay dawn without worry of a new born baby being under her? I am not a pig so I do not know what they think.


I have also watched sows farrow in an open cage without a stall (when I have over bred my farrow cage capacity) and the mother and babies appear to do just fine. For me as their handler that open cage makes it a lot harder; it is harder to save a piglet the mother has laid down on one, it is harder to see what is going on with each of the newborn piglets, it is harder to help her farrow those piglets when she has problems in delivery, and it is harder to provide medication when needed. Maybe that is why pig farmers long ago started to use farrowing and housing stalls?


I attempt to understand the pig advocates but I do wonder if their logic is based on real knowledge of pigs? I wonder why the advocates of the pig come in groups that have not spent years watching over and caring for pigs. Do these advocates know that we (pig handlers) can walk down a row and see what each and every pig needs. Have they ever stopped and “flirted” with a pig wanting attention. Do they know that pigs react very intimately with their handlers and those handlers can tell on days 21/42/63 which pigs are not pregnant? Have they ever stood next to a boar that is barking / grunting out his love? (I have a 500 pound boar that loves to talk to me!)


Do they know that we, the pig farmers, are all advocates of what is best for each and every pig because our livelihood depends on the pig! We need to make sure each pig is living in a perfect environment of happiness and health that is conducive to farrowing perfect litters. Those litters are the beginning of our income source!


I am not an advocate and I do not know what advocates think but with them I can read what they say and attempt to understand what they think. I have to wonder, why don’t those advocates spend their money and build test barns with and without crates and then spend years in observation to determine which system is really the best and attempt to understand what a pig thinks. And then after their scientifically conducted experiment is over tell us the results so we, pig farmers, know exactly why we need to spend all of the money to redo our farms,


That is what I think,
Randall Ellis, a small farm pig farmer in Thailand

[IsaanAussie]

Yes Sir, agree completely, I have seen it in other stys. The first pen I populated had dividers in the front for group sow housing but with the ability to separate them for that first critical month . It separated their feeders, and them when they were eating. Drinkers and wet area at the back were open area. They would all lie down in their own space, next to each other but alone at the front. That meant they defecated where they ate not where they drank. The dividers disappeared very quickly.

[pigeonjake]

each to there own,

[IsaanAussie]

You are correct Jake, it is a personal choice that each herdsman should be allowed to make. Personally I have always group housed pigs. I supply some form of creep area for nursing piglets but that is all I have done apart from that one pen with "gestation/feeding areas". Still I look at large farms where the personal touch of a farmer cannot be applied and see happy pigs in individual confinement. As CMPF said, given the choice they stay in their own "rooms". I am a little confused that the industry almost globally is being regulated into only group housing. I too wonder if those decisions are made from a real knowledge base.

After you have kept pigs for a while you can see the results of the herdsmanship skill in the interaction the pigs have with anyone entering their sty. They respond to how they are treated and their level of contentment.

[ChiangMaiPigFarmer]

IsaanAussie

IssanAussie, PigeonJake and others: your opinions count.

Go to the following site and make your comments so people making the survey hear all sides. ! think it is important to understand size in realtion to the topic as having several pigs is a lot different than having hundreds or thousands so let them know at what level you interact on your farm.

http://en.engormix.com/MA-pig-industry/management/forums/sow-gestation-crates-open-t5835/124-p0.htm#post16305

I was telling my wife today, if I were to build a new farm all farrow cages would be open area. The mother that just had babies in the overflow open cage, and the last, have had a better overall success at not laying on their piglets than in the confined cage (for the first 24 hours that really count).

The problem really is the management labor level required to interact in open caging. I only farrow 20 to 25 litters per month so I think I could manage all open cages. If I had twice that amount I do not think it would be effective as it would take a lot of labor. BUT if that extra piglet survives here in Thailand it could pay for the labor.

It is a hard subject and I understand and see both sides. I really feel under good management with good treatment the pigs are happy both ways.

The farmers that will really be hurt by being forced to change are the 10 to 100 thousand and bigger farms. Land and labor are just to expensive! And that includes land here in my area of Thailand. My remote area is now over 400,000 per rai

Hoping to make some money in a tough industry,

Randy, the Chiang Mai Pig Farmer

[IsaanAussie]

Sorry Randall tried to post this but the net is slower than the second coming at the moment.

This is a nonsense. You ask for opinions then ask why it is taking so long to eradicate the use of gestation crates. This question already has an answer in your opinion.

I have never used gestation or farrowing crates but my farm is very small scale. My 4x4 batch farrowing system is all about 1 man and his pigs. Each group of sows are litter mates. Try and do that with thousands of sows. I would be lost.

Big or small if you know pigs, you know happy pigs, just walk the aisle for five minutes. I have seen both open and intensive systems achieve stress free pigs.

[ChiangMaiPigFarmer]

Your post is not understood. I have not asked about eradicating the crates the survey I answered asked the question. I did ask people reading this forum to post whatever opinion they have on the site asking the question. On my farm I will not remove them and don't feel there is a reason to remove them, but if I were to build a new farm it would be different and there would be no farrow cages.

Confused!?!? but that is also okay.......................