Pigs 101 (A Start)

[FarAwayBen]

IA,

That's interesting to hear about 14k being a good price. We paid 7k for our sow, and were told that was too expensive, but I think that was based on people buying for slaughter, not for breeding. I can definitely see the risks in this game, overall though, which is why we wanted to have a "learning pig." But what you say is true. The potential for success is directly proportionate to the amount of risk, but it helps to minimize those risks through acquired experience if possible, and if one can afford to take it slow.

Love the info you provide on the farrowing pens, and am adding it to my planning document. The CP guy and our local large scale farmer both have elevated farrowing pens. The CP only had one of two occupied at the time, but the local farmer was full up. The neighbors don't do anything special (they have about 14 sows, plus several gilts and boars) and just have an oversize pen for the mother to nurse, and enough room for the piglets to move free. Their's isn't considered a quality operation, however. My brother-in-law's eldest brother slides Eucalyptus tree rails into an oversize pen (about 2x3 meters, I think) to box the sow in the middle, while the piglets can escape out either side. Rather clever, I thought, and might go this route just in the beginning. It has the flexibility, with this design, of giving the sow a chance to have some room to move around in, or to be restricted, depending on the conditions.

My current pen (under our grainhouse) I intend to transform into all nursery pens after I get our main pig dorm set up out back, but that effort won't begin until after harvest this fall, when I can get some help. At that stage I'd like to do something more along the lines of what you are talking about with elevation in my current pen in order to assure the healthiest conditions for our sows and piglets. I should have room for a minimum of 2, and potentially 4 nursery/farrowing pens at that stage in my current grainhouse setup. But they won't be 5 meters, although that would be possible if i limited it to two farrowing pens. (It would then be more like 2.5x4.5m per pen).

Still a lot of planning and figuring to do, but am happy to have gotten a start. So far I enjoy the responsibility and look forward to the possibilities.

Ben

ben,

I have 4 nursery pens each one and a half by five metres and I use these for farrowing then remove the sow and leave the piglets in there. The front metre of the pen is patitioned off so that the piglets just walk under the barrier which contains the sows feeder. The danger period for the piglets being crushed is really only the first two or three days until they learnthe signals to get out of the way. Full farrowing crate or not the is no guarantee that one will not get laid or stepped on. With my setup I put a thick covering of rice hulls in the creep area and when the piglets arrive place them in there to recover. They move out to suckle when they need. I do loose a few crushed ones. But I prefer not to restrict the sow in a cage. You could not the same thing in a corner if the sow pens are bigger. Simply remove the barrier to move either the piglets or the sow.

The platform farrowing crate/creeps are very popular and considering they are galvanised I do not believe they are bad value. The weak points in many are a cheap steel feeder rather than a stainless one and the latches are rubbish on some. Gets a bit expensive by the time you put plastic flooring in but they are very easy to clean being off the floor. May sure that any flooring panels under the sow are up to the task, piglet flooring is not. If she does go through it some serious damage can be inflicted.

If you do decide to make it then remember you will need a pipe bender as well.

The pregnant gilts or sows are also a good bet to start with. They probably wont be the best at the farm but shouldn't be bad given that they were breed at all. Most farms have a limited capacity for gestation and farrowing and try to keep it full. If one or two sows do not become pregnant then productivity is lost by having an empty crate. Answer they breed more than they can farrow and sell off the surplus. Consider the cost of AI or breeding and the risk of success and at 14K it is not a bad price.

[Brabo]

General info:

VIV Asia from march 13 - 15 2013 in Bangkok

Details about this exhibition : http://www.vivasia.nl/en/Bezoeker.aspx

[revar]

going to try my first surgery tomorrow to correct a severe rectal prolapse. The vet isnot available and I figure I have tobe able to do this myself because it is a common problem with pigs. Stresnil is not available so I am going to use acepromazine (ACP), brandname Combistress, to sedate. understand that it can be used intramuscular or intravenous. Not sure which to use. with a 45kg pig intamuscular is easiest but i have to double the.dosage. The vet used stresnil injecting in the vein in the ear slowly injecting it and stopping when the pig was out. restraining tje pog and immobilizong the head was a difficult job. Any advice on how to use ACP would be appreciated.

After the pig is out I will get the rectum back on and stitch a purse-string suture.

Wish me luck.

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[Brabo]

FarAwayBen,

Why don't you buy a litter and raise them. Your wife and yourself can enjoy seeing them grow. You can pick out the gilts for further breeding and sell the rest at slaughter-time. In the mean time you can experiment with the feed etc.

Another advance, in my humble opinion, is that you will know your gilts and they will know you, witch makes them easy to handel afther.

Maybe a combination of buying a litter, next month a gilt, ... would be good to.

I don't know where you live but maybe you can consider to buy your litter or gilts from one of the experianced posters of this forum : Isaanaussie, Revar, Pigeonjake,...

Anyway, Good luck and enjoy!!!

(sorry about my poor English)

[Brabo]

going to try my first surgery tomorrow to correct a severe rectal prolapse. The vet isnot available and I figure I have tobe able to do this myself because it is a common problem with pigs. Stresnil is not available so I am going to use acepromazine (ACP), brandname Combistress, to sedate. understand that it can be used intramuscular or intravenous. Not sure which to use. with a 45kg pig intamuscular is easiest but i have to double the.dosage. The vet used stresnil injecting in the vein in the ear slowly injecting it and stopping when the pig was out. restraining tje pog and immobilizong the head was a difficult job. Any advice on how to use ACP would be appreciated.

After the pig is out I will get the rectum back on and stitch a purse-string suture.

Wish me luck.

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GOOD LUCK !!

It seems you realy know what you're doing. So I think they are all lucky to have someone like you around.

[FarAwayBen]

revar,

Your bravery at such an undertaking is duly noted. Such a thing would never happen in the west. I am impressed. I have heard how one must be his own vet raising pigs in Thailand, but your undertaking right now wins them all. I'm sure you'll do well.

Ben

[FarAwayBen]

Brabo,

I am inspired. This sounds like a very good idea given our current situation, and I think we can modify easy enough to accommodate it (a half litter, at least). And it seems like not only would it be a great learning experience and create the bonding with the gilts you talk about, but it would be good for our enthusiasm as well, which is crucial if this is to succeed. I will run the idea by my wife.

Thank you for your input, and for following along.

Ben

FarAwayBen,

Why don't you buy a litter and raise them. Your wife and yourself can enjoy seeing them grow. You can pick out the gilts for further breeding and sell the rest at slaughter-time. In the mean time you can experiment with the feed etc.

Another advance, in my humble opinion, is that you will know your gilts and they will know you, witch makes them easy to handel afther.

Maybe a combination of buying a litter, next month a gilt, ... would be good to.

I don't know where you live but maybe you can consider to buy your litter or gilts from one of the experianced posters of this forum : Isaanaussie, Revar, Pigeonjake,...

Anyway, Good luck and enjoy!!!

(sorry about my poor English)

[Brabo]

Brabo,

I am inspired. This sounds like a very good idea given our current situation, and I think we can modify easy enough to accommodate it (a half litter, at least). And it seems like not only would it be a great learning experience and create the bonding with the gilts you talk about, but it would be good for our enthusiasm as well, which is crucial if this is to succeed. I will run the idea by my wife.

Thank you for your input, and for following along.

Ben

Ben,

I was in your situation about a year ago. Bought 1 sow to start with. Afther I bought 3 more litters with 1 month inbetween. It was a great experience and boosted the enthousiasm of the family.

The first litter I bought, was a total mistake for breeding but good for fattening. I wanted these piglets so much, they were so cute. My father in law just said : "no good,not buy" and he smiled. I bought them anyway. A few months later turned out he was right. With this lesson I've learned that there is a big difference between fattening and breeding pigs. We sold them all at 100 kg and even made profit. The second litter we bought, I just smiled, observed and listened ( and paid offcourse). He was so proud that I trusted him. And again, he was right.

I found myself studying on the internet, every day for 2 up to 6 hours. I joined this forum and I am learning with every post from every poster !

Theoretic knowledge is just 1 part of the proces. Another part is experience. As far as I know, we both have a long way to go and a lot to learn. But we're enthousiast !!!

With this post, I would also like to thank the other posters for their patience with amateurs, like myself

Frank

[FarAwayBen]

Frank,

Thank you for your posts. This means a lot to me. I think the biggest challenge we face isn't necessarily a lack of experience, but keeping up our morale and enthusiasm. As long as one believe he or she is capable, one is capable.

I have discussed your experiences with my wife and we are going over our options right now. I appreciate your contribution here. It's good to know I'm not alone in being a novice at this, but that it's still possible. It is Pigs 101 after all!

Ben

Brabo,

I am inspired. This sounds like a very good idea given our current situation, and I think we can modify easy enough to accommodate it (a half litter, at least). And it seems like not only would it be a great learning experience and create the bonding with the gilts you talk about, but it would be good for our enthusiasm as well, which is crucial if this is to succeed. I will run the idea by my wife.

Thank you for your input, and for following along.

Ben

Ben,

I was in your situation about a year ago. Bought 1 sow to start with. Afther I bought 3 more litters with 1 month inbetween. It was a great experience and boosted the enthousiasm of the family.

The first litter I bought, was a total mistake for breeding but good for fattening. I wanted these piglets so much, they were so cute. My father in law just said : "no good,not buy" and he smiled. I bought them anyway. A few months later turned out he was right. With this lesson I've learned that there is a big difference between fattening and breeding pigs. We sold them all at 100 kg and even made profit. The second litter we bought, I just smiled, observed and listened ( and paid offcourse). He was so proud that I trusted him. And again, he was right.

I found myself studying on the internet, every day for 2 up to 6 hours. I joined this forum and I am learning with every post from every poster !

Theoretic knowledge is just 1 part of the proces. Another part is experience. As far as I know, we both have a long way to go and a lot to learn. But we're enthousiast !!!

With this post, I would also like to thank the other posters for their patience with amateurs, like myself

Frank

[IsaanAussie]

going to try my first surgery tomorrow to correct a severe rectal prolapse. The vet isnot available and I figure I have tobe able to do this myself because it is a common problem with pigs. Stresnil is not available so I am going to use acepromazine (ACP), brandname Combistress, to sedate. understand that it can be used intramuscular or intravenous. Not sure which to use. with a 45kg pig intamuscular is easiest but i have to double the.dosage. The vet used stresnil injecting in the vein in the ear slowly injecting it and stopping when the pig was out. restraining tje pog and immobilizong the head was a difficult job. Any advice on how to use ACP would be appreciated.

After the pig is out I will get the rectum back on and stitch a purse-string suture.

Wish me luck.

Sent from my GT-S6102 using Thaivisa Connect App

I have a sow that had the same problem and It to the local vets three goes to get it done. Mate you are a brave man. All the best of luck.

[IsaanAussie]

Ben,

Brabos advice is well worth a look. I run a 4x4 batching system and have always used 4 siblings from the same litter as a batch. They do not quarrel and have eaten and slept together since birth. They live in a standard 3 by 5 metre pen together. Their cycles are usually within days and when you are ready to breed them a dose of hormones will bring them all into heat at the same time.

If you got four gilt weaners it would let you watch them develop. watch their first seasons and to spend time with them. Gain their trust and learn how to quieten them down with disturbed. Also important learn how to be the BIG PIG. So if they do have a dispute, they will stop when you yell.

Brabo, good advice. No for someone getting into breeding, excellent advice.

[Falang Nang Fa]

I'm new on the forum and have a small question.

Right now we have a sow with a swollen nipple on the back.

14 days before we toke the piglets off, but this is not a normal swolling because it's so big as two big man fists.

Our vet recommend us to give 5 days 2cc Betamox, but after these days it was not better.

Now he recommend to give every two days 2cc of Betamox. I think this is a little bit strange.

If the medicine not works after 5 days, why it would work now.

Can somebody advice us, or explain it.

greetings,

Chris

[FarAwayBen]

IA,

i like the sound of this setup. And I had to chuckle at your comment about being the BIG PIG.. I have to calm my sow down sometimes at feeding time when she jumps to the top rail. I yell in English, and no effect. If I yell "Oooack BAi Loie!" (Get out!) in Thai she jumps down without hesitation. The more I think about "raising a family" the more I like that idea, particularly with your experience with it thrown in.

Soon I intend to ask more about details of everyone's operations, but I want to go through the thread history first.

Thanks again,

Ben

Ben,

Brabos advice is well worth a look. I run a 4x4 batching system and have always used 4 siblings from the same litter as a batch. They do not quarrel and have eaten and slept together since birth. They live in a standard 3 by 5 metre pen together. Their cycles are usually within days and when you are ready to breed them a dose of hormones will bring them all into heat at the same time.

If you got four gilt weaners it would let you watch them develop. watch their first seasons and to spend time with them. Gain their trust and learn how to quieten them down with disturbed. Also important learn how to be the BIG PIG. So if they do have a dispute, they will stop when you yell.

Brabo, good advice. No for someone getting into breeding, excellent advice.

[revar]

Betamox is a tradename for amoxilin. amoxil is the most used broad spectrum penecilin used to combat infections. normally 3 shots with 12 hour intervals should show improvement. dosage is 1cc for each 10kg. if amoxilin doesn't work I use kanamycin which is an penecilin based antibiotoc which act fast but only works for ashort time. after the situation starts improving I switch back to amoxylin. (3 days, 6 shots).

I am not a real vet, butact as one around the village qith the advice/ training from a Bangkok based vet who travels around.

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[revar]

Chris,

one addition: 2cc is the amound of amoxilin you would give a 20kg pig. no wonder there is no improvement with a sow. you will need 1cc for each 10kg of the sow. maybe there was a misunderstanding because if the piglets are still suckling you can't give these amounts.

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[revar]

IA amd others, i am not particulary brave, just practical. good vets are hard to come by and expensive. but pigs which die will emidiataly turn a profit in loss So for me the solution is easy- become a (semi) vet. better to try first time with a pig i intend to fatten than with a sow.

And becomming the 'village vet generates some extra income.

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[pigeonjake]

hi,

we dont breed pigs, we just buy them in to bring on,

we did have a go at breeding but to be honest it didnt go to good, yes we did have babys i went down one morning and a litter of 6 healthy piglets were suckling from mama, very pleased, then 2 weeks later another sow had 1 baby and it was still born, so you can be happy on minute and then down,

so i said to the wife we will just buy in to bring on, and to be honest it works for us and i think thats what you have to look for things that work for you its not the same on every farm,

i would sugest having a work with IA and asking about a litter from him, youll get good pigs and of course there will be a good gilt in there,,

pick of that litter we had, they were lovely and i must admit it was nice to just find them there,,lol,

the other pic are the kind of pigs we buy in,

[IsaanAussie]

There was a comment made a day or so ago about corporate pigs being PRRS free. Beware, they are not all clean pigs. I know people that have the problem now as a result of buying piglets breed in corporate subcontractors stys.

Whatever you plan to do, keep the issue of biosecurity uppermost, above all else. One dirty shoed visitor is all it takes. A boar towed behind a motorbike? Give me a break....

I had a farmer turn up on a bike straight from his sty. I didnt know him. He wasnt filthy but hadnt changed from his work clothes. He started to walk towards my sty and I stopped him. He said he just wanted to look and I told him he would be welcome when he had had a shower and changed. He just shrugged and said Mai Pen Rai and kept on towards the sty. I stopped him again and physically turned him around and gave him a little push in the back. He left and I havent seen him since.

The wife was horrified, you send away customer, he teach every other one sure! I told her, if he brought PRRS here, we wouldnt have any customers because we wouldnt have any pigs. Rather loss one uneducated potential customer than the pigs!

So again the moral is take no chances. Clean your own shoes after a visit to another sty. If you visit a well prepared breeding farm now, you will be lucky if they let you in at all. Often they ask what you want and they will bring the pigs out front for you to see. You dont get to pick yourself from the whole thing.

Plan for your future, protect your arse.

[revar]

operation a success:-)

But it took me 4 hours. half of this because I choose a very carefull approach to the sedation and the gilt proved to be one of the few whp could realy fight of the sedation. In case anyone wants to try in the future I write down how I did it.

Sedated with combistress 20g ACP.

ACP is used as a tranqualizer for transport, agression but can at high dosage be used to put swine to sleep. it is safe to up to 25 times the recommended dose. still I was very careful because swine are known to easily develop breathing problems during anastecia.

started with the maximum remmonded dosage for intramuscular use (0.2 cc /10kg bw). no effect at all after 20 minutes. she was still running around (she is avery nervous pig). added the same dosage which made her juzt quiet enough to give her another cc intravenous in the vein her ear with 2 men restraining her. this made.her quiet enough so I could examine the prolapse and peel a lot of dead flesh. but I could only get about half back in. used a kilo of sugar to shrink the swollen prolapse but still 3cm which could not be pushed back in. closer examimation showed a lot more necrosis and after cutting this away and amputating about a cm of cartilage at the end I managed to get everything back in. bleeding was minimal and stopped very quickly.

Everytime something hurt she willed herself to wake up and buckle. two men had to sit on her all the time. Sewing a purse string suture yto prevent everything from poping out again was actually the most difficult since she kept waking up and I had to give her another shot of sedative and my helpers still had a hard time restraining her. last

thing was a shot of amoxil to combat infections.

In total I used 7 cc of ACP.I learned a lot and figure that the next one I can do in half the time.

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[IsaanAussie]

Move over everyone else Dr Revar has entered the building. I am in awe. When are you coming to do my herd review?

[revar]

I am sure you guys could do it. Its not that difficult. Just don't be afraid. We all did a much scarier thing moving from our safe western world to the unsure future in los.

It always amazes me how scared people are as soon as needles are involved. I still cant understand why people in my village, including one who catches snakes, are afraid to inject their pig and pay me several times the cost of the medicines to do the injection. (I charge 10b/cc. max of 50b per shot. )But they do tatoo eachother with a dirty needle.???

But I am not complaining. some extra cash is always nice. It just a lot of washing (I shower and change clothes between every visit. have soap and 6 sets of clothing in the car). Biosecurity is essential.

Btw: word gets around quickly so Im performing the same operation tomorrow for a client/uncle. Have to think on what to charge for labor above the medicine costs.

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[FarAwayBen]

revar,

I'm sure the locals hold you in awe.. I know I do. Very inspirational.

Ben

Jake, thanks for the advice. My wife informs me our local big time farmer not only offered to sell us a pregnant sow, but also said we could take our pick of which one. There were 4 or so to choose from, if I recall. We haven't had time to go back. Right now are proccupied with rice.

We are still deciding, however, if we should try to get some gilts from the litter, or get a mother. I'm inclined to get the gilts and gather some more experience just caring for the animals in preparation for our first litter in late Sept. I'm still confused about feeding amounts for a gestating sow at the various stages of pregnancy, for example. Raising for weight seems a lot more straight forward.

Ben

[IsaanAussie]

Ben,

Exactly what is your pig farming objective, or is that what you are trying to establish? One or two pigs under the rice bran is easy enough. But if you are planning to build a sty then you need a lot more focus.

Feeding gestating sows is simple. You have to give them enough feed for the litter to grow, but keep them as lean as you can. The reason being that when she is lactating you want her to eat as much as possible.

[FarAwayBen]

IA,

Thanks for inquiring.

Eventually, a pig-related income ranging from 20 to 40k a month. That is my objective. Anything that helps us get to that stage regarding pigs is up for consideration. Originally the plan was to sell weened piglets, and not raise for weight. 10 to 13 sows the initial goal. Currently we are rethinking that, and trying to be more flexible to other options. I had felt that a more long term goal was to grow a few boars from the litters and get into studding them out. Recently we are contemplating raising for weight. But the bottom line is that whatever helps us reach our income goals more effectively is teh direction we would like to go. Right now, with only a learning sow, we are in the information gathering stage, which is why it seems unfocused.

I understand the theory of feeding a gestating sow, but am interested in the specifics. Here is an example of where western teaching in this area doesn't seem to translate well into this situation. http://www.ncsu.edu/...eets/810s.htm

Usually I get too much detail, or too much generality, and very little of practical use, so I'm working on diseminating what I'm finding, merging it together into some sort of useful guide that we can work from and modify going forward. As always, part of that process is translating my findings into our specific situation and locality. Someone stated it well a few posts back. We can learn a lot studying and asking questions, but it seems that experience is best gained from just doing it ourselves. A big part of my current situation is determining where to balance what I am discovering on my own, vs what my wife is discovering, so in a major sense, what is happening right now is less about the pigs, and more about establishing our working relationship.

We have time. No need to rush things, and I feel a plan based on these early experiences will be of more value to us than a plan based on our ignorance.

Ben

[pigeonjake]

the only reason i would go for gilts is that you can get them used to you as they grow, you can learn about them as individuals, pigs are all different,

if you went and bought a sow, yes very good ready for mating or even been mated, she could turn out to be a nasty pig, not easy to go into her pen for cleaning, theres more to it then just going and buying a sow,

well thats what i think anyway,

its like IA bore, like he says he can open the gate and he will follow him to the pen,, he,s trained him from young, same thing with sows,,

jake

[IsaanAussie]

Ben,

Well said and well thought out. You have set a target income and are now determining how to achieve it, good for you. More than willing to help where ever I can.

IA

(PS. I sometimes wonder if I am creating stones for others to carry by commenting at all. Good to see that you are not rushing things.)

[pigeonjake]

IA, i love to read your coments and i look forward to your writings, and another thing i cant wait to sit down with you and have a beer or 3,,lol when i bring your vegimite,

jake

[IsaanAussie]

the only reason i would go for gilts is that you can get them used to you as they grow, you can learn about them as individuals, pigs are all different,

if you went and bought a sow, yes very good ready for mating or even been mated, she could turn out to be a nasty pig, not easy to go into her pen for cleaning, theres more to it then just going and buying a sow,

well thats what i think anyway,

its like IA bore, like he says he can open the gate and he will follow him to the pen,, he,s trained him from young, same thing with sows,,

jake

Jake,

I have to differ here. Pigs are very easy to please and forgiving. If Ben was to buy a sow, he would know if it was an evil bitch before he put it in the truck I am sure. Try to enter the pen slowly, she wont know you and will protest, offer a banana leaf or skin and get down to her level and just squat there a while. If she settles than it will be fine.

I occasionally do the lolly with one or a group of my sows and they react badly. But go in to the pen with a hose and a scrubbing brush and give them all a shower and a scrub down and all is forgiven.

I think the hardest thing to do is to move pigs from pen to pen. Learning how to do that without stressing man or pig, for an impatient old bugger like me, was a challenge. Now I watch some Thai farmers trying to move pigs by dragging them by the ears, attempting to play wheelbarrow races with them or just playing "catch the greasy pig" and smile.

My sty has a wide centre aisle and I often let one or more sows out of their pen to just roam up and down the middle aisle. I just leave the front gate open. They are all familiar with their own pens but unless they get to sniff out the place often wont want to move. Mind you, if you try it be prepared for a lengthy wait until they all go back to their own pen. Four 200kg "escaped" sows can be a real handful.

Answers include crowding boards and removable aisle barriers.

[Brabo]

Ben,

1) Selling only weened piglets, who wouldn't like that. But are there enough buyers? You will probably end up by fattening those you couldn't sell @ 16kg.

2) Grow a few boars from the litters and get into studding them out ??? Forget about that, you don't want to be responcible for PRRS spread around, do you?

Frank

[Brabo]

Ben,

Well said and well thought out. You have set a target income and are now determining how to achieve it, good for you. More than willing to help where ever I can.

IA

(PS. I sometimes wonder if I am creating stones for others to carry by commenting at all. Good to see that you are not rushing things.)

Market research is the most important thing to do before starting any bussines.

Who and where is your competition, at what prices are they selling and to who are they selling to?

With what you are going to make a difference? Why would the buyers come to you?

This and many more questions need to be answered before starting any bussines at all.

Frank