Pigs 101 (A Start)

FarAwayBen · July 3, 2012

IA,

No worries about stones. One of the difficult things about communicating in a forum such as this one is that we have only the narrowest margin of perspective on someone else's reality and all we can do is try and plug in that perspective with our own experiences. Sure, I could write a book and post it here, clear everything up, but who would read it? Anyways, your challenges are valid points and worth thinking about.

Right now we are just trying to be flexible, and I guess I've made it clear by now that we are not established, nor do we consider ourselves to be, but I do believe in visualizing my objectives and treating them as though they were real, and then allowing action to manifest that reality. Brabo brings up good points which are factors in the decisions (but studding seems to have the potential to be rather lucrative. And somebody's got to do it, after all. There is a good market for it. Selling babies, we'd have to give it a try. It's worked for the neighbors, and they have a very poor reputation as pig farmers. )

I also have experienced how forgiving a sow can be. She was friendly at the start, but was not pleased at all about being transported (A lot of ear pulling, and I think that we did this during a very delicate stage, just 24 hours after studding, which was a mistake I won't repeat). But a handbrush put all that anxiety in the past. She loves the brush, to be sure. I find this animal, anyways, to be much more sensitive and full of character than any dogs I've had, and equally as forgiving. But I'm keeping it in perspective that she is not a pet, but the beginnings of earning a living, and if she does not pay for her feed and help with the electric and water bills, she's bacon.

But there sounds like a lot of merit to not getting a pregnant sow, but instead just picking 4 or so gilts out of her litter. I certainly want to have a "working" relationship with these animals and am not interested in suppressing rebellions.

Again, great info floating around here. Thanks all for participating and bearing with me as I get all this sorted out.

Ben

Brabo · July 3, 2012

Ben,

As I don't have enough gilts and sows, I don't have a boar in my farm. In contrary to your thinking: NOBODY NEEDS A BOAR WHO IS SERVING AT MANY FARMS. You even don't want his owner to visit your farm. It is to dangerous!!!

We use AI. I am now even working with imported seamen. They deliver me 100% purebred seamen. I am also going to raise a nice Duroc boar ( I will buy from IA). This Sire will only be used to serve my own Dames. So unless you are willing to collect the seamen from your boar , and go inseminate it at other farms, I think you don't want to be the farang who contaminates all the pigfarms.

Frank

Brabo · July 3, 2012

Work in progress. VIP FARM fase 2

Edited July 3, 2012 by Brabo

IsaanAussie · July 3, 2012

To back up Brabos comment, and to dispell anyone who says, yeah right but where do I get that information from? I thought I would post this table which with I created from data freely available on the web.

National pig distribution 2554.pdf

Of course there is much more to it but as a start you can see that there are differences dependant on where you are. If you dig as deeply as I did then you can find the answers near you. How many breeders, growout, combination of both, how many sows and boars, and hence determine how many piglets are bought and sold and the potential. It can never be a list of who will buy but it will give you direction for your farm in your province and even at district level.

In my case I found I could not satisfy the market for piglets within 10 kms of my farm. These people were travelling much further to find sources. All I had to do was ask in the right neighbouring districts.

IsaanAussie · July 3, 2012

Work in progress. VIP FARM fase 2

Now this I like. My own expansion plan, should I ever get to realise it is similar structure built on raised land and using deep litter systems. 100% Organic grow out facility. Dream on IA, shouldn't you be mucking out pigs at this hour? Yeah, suppose so, still nice to dream sometimes...

FarAwayBen · July 3, 2012

Brabo,

You should see the local studding operation. You'd be surprised. He runs two trucks exclusively for studding, with two boars per truck, at a time. He and his wife are out daily. Only farms with 10 or more sows, from what I've seen, keeps a boar or few around, and there is a great deal of small time farmers how just keep a sow or two, and then raise the piglets for weight and need that 400 baht housecall. It's very common.

I guess it goes without saying that average local farmers are a bit laid back, to a fault in some cases, but they kind of just go with the flow, and follow whatever works for them. The farmers here have something of a "make it work" mentality, and "mai pen rai" is a crucial part of that. Of course they do tend to cut a lot of corners on average, and don't seem to have the healthiest of environments for their pigs, primarily when it comes to poor drainage and lack of running water, and general sty upkeep (the bigger operations are better kept, in general). "When in Rome" seems to apply as far as the practicality of merging in with the local business community goes, but it can't hurt to take a few extra measures to ensure a healthier, and more pleasant pig environment.

IA, we actualy have a lot of piglet buyers that come in from other areas (including Sisaket). Obviously they are searching for lower prices, which is why the average local price was running at 1200 THB, apparently. But by no means is the operation limited to a small 10km radius. The main boar studder's trucks I've seen as far as 20kms away, and I'm sure he and his wife go much further than that. Traveling is certianly something I'm prepared for, in any case, so long as it offsets the costs of fuel and I can find a market for whatever it is I'm pursuing. All that said, the local market for selling for weight certainly exists, and would seem to be a stabilizing option to help balance things out, so long as you can offset the feed costs. The neighbors valid rational for selling weened piglets is that the feed costs for a gestating sow are considerably lower than they are for pigs that you are trying to fatten up to sell to the local butchers, but currently even they are making adjustments to their business strategy. Just following the money..

Ben

pigeonjake · July 3, 2012

everyone will do things differently to there locality, if the mrkt is flooded with piglets then you would have to grow out and so on, thats the way i would look at,

its what works for you in your area, i will say one thing, the boar men round me, wangnamyen ,sakeow, dont seam to work like they did, it seams that its easyer for the AI men to come in with his little tube for the job,

just a matter of what IA says look round your own area and try and fit it,

but whatever you do and try we,ll never stop learning the game, yes our pigs give us money, but to be honest i enjoy doing whatwe do too, we have the laying hens, eggs get sold to family mostly, my wifes just bought ducks, again eggs, then we have the fish pond, fruit trees,,lol, the list goes on, but i enjoy it all, yes some days i have a coffee and think bloody hell this is hard,, but i love it,,lol

revar · July 3, 2012

Ben, think very hard about studding out and biosecurity.

I had a whole herd of 70 growers add finishers die from a desease which wiped out 50% of all pigs in the sirrounding area. Infection of my farm was probably because people just wandered over to look at the piggies. It was not propperly fenced at the time. It cost me over 150000 bath on losses for the pigs, feed ,medication. Almost forced me out of business. Immagine what would have been the effect on my reputation if it had been caused by me. Learning by mistakes is normal bit this was a very expensive lesson.

I visit other farms as semi-vet, but have sepatate sets of clothing and boots for them. I work barechested and my shorts often stay at the customers farm for the next time I visit. bigger customers also keep a set of boots forme.

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Brabo · July 3, 2012

Brabo,

You should see the local studding operation. You'd be surprised. He runs two trucks exclusively for studding, with two boars per truck, at a time. He and his wife are out daily. Only farms with 10 or more sows, from what I've seen, keeps a boar or few around, and there is a great deal of small time farmers how just keep a sow or two, and then raise the piglets for weight and need that 400 baht housecall. It's very common.

I guess it goes without saying that average local farmers are a bit laid back, to a fault in some cases, but they kind of just go with the flow, and follow whatever works for them. The farmers here have something of a "make it work" mentality, and "mai pen rai" is a crucial part of that. Of course they do tend to cut a lot of corners on average, and don't seem to have the healthiest of environments for their pigs, primarily when it comes to poor drainage and lack of running water, and general sty upkeep (the bigger operations are better kept, in general). "When in Rome" seems to apply as far as the practicality of merging in with the local business community goes, but it can't hurt to take a few extra measures to ensure a healthier, and more pleasant pig environment.

Ben

Ben,

I know about these studding operators.

Their existance and their profits are a fact. But that don't make them right.

It used to be verry common but fortunally AI is getting more and more used. I don't understand why anyone would pay 400 bath ( what is cheap, here thye ask 1000 Bath) and have an enorm risk of bringing a disease to the farm. You can buy tested seamen from big farms from 150 Bath (poolseamen).

It seems very strange to me that you are so willing to learn about food, etc and on this major point, you are beleiving a scrupulous entrepeneur who is only thinking about money.

Maybe you can learn how to inseminate. Then you can buy the seamen and start a bussines by going to inseminate. Within 1 year he will have to make sausagesv from his boars

Frank

FarAwayBen · July 3, 2012

Frank,

Sounds like a good idea, getting into articifial insemination. We had the CP farmer describe the process to us and show us the kits he uses. However, if it's more expensive than the 400 baht housecall I'm not sure there would be a market for it. Farmers around here tend to cut corners and keep their expenses as low as possible.

Revar's experience with disease is certainly eye opening, and just goes to show that no matter what, there is always going to be a risk when raising livestock. Suffice it to say, however, we are well fenced in here and nobody comes in that is not under invitation..

Anyways, I'm just exploring what the local trends are. Like you said, market research. I had never thought of studding as poor business practice until you brought it up.

Ben

EDIT: I just reread and saw that you mentioned 150 baht for an insemination kit. Am I reading that right? If that is truly the case, then yes, I think I would be able to compete with the studders.

Edited July 3, 2012 by FarAwayBen

Brabo · July 3, 2012

Ben

The cheapest starting price, I am awere of is 150 B. Good quality, tested seamen

revar · July 3, 2012

cost frpm the dissease were actually 250000+. typing is difficult on my phone.

alternatively if you want boars and semwn is that expansive around your place this may be a big opportunity for you. maybe you can learn ai,keep some boars of different races and use ai to service sows around the area for a better price then they pay now.

btw: todays operation tool me only 45 minutes because now I knew what I was doing..

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Edited July 3, 2012 by revar

Brabo · July 3, 2012

cost frpm the dissease were actually 250000+. typing is difficult on my phone.

alternatively if you want boars and semwn is that expansive around your place this may be a big opportunity for you. maybe you can learn ai,keep some boars of different races and use ai to service sows around the area for a better price then they pay now.

btw: todays operation tool me only 45 minutes because now I knew what I was doing..

Sent from my GT-S6102 using Thaivisa Connect App

Exactly my idea Revar !

Congrats again with the operations

FarAwayBen · July 3, 2012

Revar,

Congrats! how about posting a youtube video next time? (c: actually, i wonder if someone has already done that

Brabo,

Might have a starting point here.. http://www.betagro.c...c_id=24&p_id=35

Where do you get your insemination kits?

Though it sounds like revar is talking about creating my own Semen kits. uh, and i thought studding was dirty business...

(by the way, good thinking, Brabo. I imagine keeping the kits in the refridgerator is a lot cheaper than keeping a dozen boars)

Edited July 3, 2012 by FarAwayBen

revar · July 3, 2012

yes thats what I was talking about. with the prices you quoted you can hire a helper to do the dirty deed if you don't do it yourself. in a poor village this should be no problem. doesn't have to be the main business. But if you keep boars to improve your own herd it would generate some extra income for minimal investment/effort without being a large biosecurity risk to you or your customers.

It just something you could research since I have no idea ho semen is collected. Inflatable sow?

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Edited July 3, 2012 by revar

IsaanAussie · July 3, 2012

yes thats what I was talking about. with the prices you quoted you can hire a helper to do the dirty deed if you don't do it yourself. in a poor village this should be no problem. doesn't have to be the main business. But if you keep boars to improve your own herd it would generate some extra income for minimal investment/effort without being a large biosecurity risk to you or your customers.

It just something you could research since I have no idea ho semen is collected. Inflatable sow?

Sent from my GT-S6102 using Thaivisa Connect App

Inflatable sow, I love it. 5555555

I have an Ai manual here somewhere I will look it out and post it. Basically you have a small saw horse type steel unit bolted to the floor which you cover in sow piss soaked carpet. That is all it takes. The boar gets a sniff and this thing is locked rigid just like a sow standing reflex, he thinks "Here we go, the one you miss is the one you never had" The tricks are that the first fraction you ditch then the rest is usable, needs to have extenders added and refrigerated. Just another procedure to be learnt.

The large farms near me are now inseminating their sows with semen collected from their boars to limit the injury risk. The boar stimulates the sows by walking down the aisle and establishing contact while the "jockey" sits facing backwards on the sow in the pen ready to deliver the dose. Watching 5 or 6 guys each side of the aisle sat atop sows while a single boar stomps around without a hope in hell of getting a bit of the action is quite a sight. Factory farming, now is farming the word I was thinking of...? 5555

FarAwayBen · July 3, 2012

555's aside. this actually sounds like a remarkably good idea.

when our sow was recently "studded" my witnessing of the process, surprised at 5:45am, with no coffee in me, goes into the books as surreal, if nothing else. Not to mention the farmers hand on the $%# guiding it, and my sow then responding by $#$@%% on his hand, and him showing no reaction. I have to admit, upon seeing this alone (remember, no coffee), wondering if studding was a reasonable way to go.

The CP guy, however, has no boars present for the process, and described something along the lines of "up to the elbow" when doing artificial insemination. I'm sure Brabo can elaborate, but I get the impression, from pictures, that Brabo's extended family is doing most of the dirty work. So, yes, hired hands... or some unlucky brother-in-law who happens to be doing nothing better with his day. But I can't count on that. The dirty work, I'm safe to say, is mine, and mine alone.

EDIT: (and as far as creating artificial insemination kits, i'm sure there is a better way than "hands on" action.. (an artificial sow, perhaps? (sawhorse)))

Edited July 3, 2012 by FarAwayBen

FarAwayBen · July 3, 2012

Brabo,

No harm intended. It was unfair of me to make assumptions on what I know little about.

Ben

IsaanAussie · July 3, 2012

No no Ben, the apparatus consists of a small bottle with a tube attached, no up to the elbows stuff. The tube is inserted and the sow will lock it in place. There are actually some good videos on YouTube and on some Thai websites to show you the process.

FarAwayBen · July 3, 2012

Lovely.. i can hardly wait

I'll have to get the family up early in the morning for this google adventure.

Thanks, IA!

I'm actually as excited about this brilliant idea by brago as I've been since we first got interested in the pig game. I think we might have a niche here.. our edge, if you will, the thing that makes us "better". Brago, i may need to buy you a drink

No no Ben, the apparatus consists of a small bottle with a tube attached, no up to the elbows stuff. The tube is inserted and the sow will lock it in place. There are actually some good videos on YouTube and on some Thai websites to show you the process.

Brabo · July 3, 2012

Brabo,

No harm intended. It was unfair of me to make assumptions on what I know little about.

Ben

Ben,

No problem mate. Actually you are right. The in-laws do all the work !

I am trying to manage the bussines. I am running another bussines in Sin-City Every month I go for a few days "on inspection" to the farm. Only when we are on a longer holliday, I work in the sty. The planning, bookkeeping, growth and progress of the farm, is my daily occupation. Even the planning for the insemination ( wich breed, bloodline,...) is my job.

My "bussinesplan in a nutshell" :

1) breeding and selling 100% purebred piglets, gilts and sows

2) breeding and selling fattening piglets, gilts and sows

3) becomming a "closed farm"

4) selling semen from 100 % purebreed

5) selling food and suplies

end of 2012: about 30 gilts and sows

1 Boar from every breed I have ( Danish Landrace, Large White, Duroc, Pietrain)

trying to start with another (rare breed) Which one, I let you guys know when I succeed

end of 2013: about 50 gilts and sows

2 Boars from every breed I have ( Danish Landrace, Large White, Duroc, Pietrain)

moving to the village to become a full-time farmer

end of 2014: about 100 gilts and sows

2 Boars from every breed I have ( Danish Landrace, Large White, Duroc, Pietrain)

So far, so good

Frank

Edited July 3, 2012 by Brabo

COXYATCITY · July 4, 2012

There was a comment made a day or so ago about corporate pigs being PRRS free. Beware, they are not all clean pigs. I know people that have the problem now as a result of buying piglets breed in corporate subcontractors stys.

Whatever you plan to do, keep the issue of biosecurity uppermost, above all else. One dirty shoed visitor is all it takes. A boar towed behind a motorbike? Give me a break....

I had a farmer turn up on a bike straight from his sty. I didnt know him. He wasnt filthy but hadnt changed from his work clothes. He started to walk towards my sty and I stopped him. He said he just wanted to look and I told him he would be welcome when he had had a shower and changed. He just shrugged and said Mai Pen Rai and kept on towards the sty. I stopped him again and physically turned him around and gave him a little push in the back. He left and I havent seen him since.

The wife was horrified, you send away customer, he teach every other one sure! I told her, if he brought PRRS here, we wouldnt have any customers because we wouldnt have any pigs. Rather loss one uneducated potential customer than the pigs!

So again the moral is take no chances. Clean your own shoes after a visit to another sty. If you visit a well prepared breeding farm now, you will be lucky if they let you in at all. Often they ask what you want and they will bring the pigs out front for you to see. You dont get to pick yourself from the whole thing.

Plan for your future, protect your arse.

. IA.y

ou are 100% correct on this 1,i used to buy in piglets from a big outfit in Buri-ram, and no way will they let you in .i have bought most of my sows from Khorat ,same again,no entry,The only time i was let into a farm was when i bought my Duroc,to choose which 1 i wanted,i had to put on the wellington boots,and then they sprayed all over me all over,so the big boys keep people away,and thats what i tell my Thai family to do because it is done for a reason..never mind the neighbors and strangers want to look and be nosy,keep them away,or you may loose everything. Ian. Edited July 4, 2012 by COXYATCITY

revar · July 4, 2012

sold 5 finishers today at 55b/kg. farmprice today +2 to 59 but this was the agreed price.

Very happy because weights ranged from 95-110 kg while they had only consumed (per pig) 10kg Belac 300, 20kg Betagro 301, 10 kg 301L, 90kg 301B and 45kg 302. There are still 3 on the pen who ate between 75-+85 kg which is the expected weight at this amound of feed using the 'professional' Betagro feeding method.

Are you guys finding buyers at the official farm prices?

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IsaanAussie · July 4, 2012

No but I'm not looking in the normal places. I believe the temporary up in prices will drop off. But I am still looking for a few good quality durocs between 40 and 50 kgs. I'll pay over the current rate. Looking for a body score of around 3

Edited July 4, 2012 by IsaanAussie

FarAwayBen · July 6, 2012

Brabo,

I admire your ambition, as well as your ability to get your family to run your operation. How do you keep them "in line"? I'm guessing they are making a lot of buying and selling decisions in your absense.

Ben

Brabo · July 6, 2012

Brabo,

I admire your ambition, as well as your ability to get your family to run your operation. How do you keep them "in line"? I'm guessing they are making a lot of buying and selling decisions in your absense.

Ben

Ben,

I am verry lucky with my in-laws. The whole idea of starting to take care pigs was theirs. I don't need to keep them in line. They are verry happy that they can breed and raise the pigs.

Every day we are on the phone with them, and all the descisions are made by me. I am listening to their suggestions offcourse. Afther all, they have a lot of experience and it gives them the feeling that they are appreciated.

When we started, I amazed them by telling them how many bags of food from each sort was still in stock. Only simple mathematics, but they knew i could control them if I wanted.

On selling, I inform them about the official prices and they always sell for higher prices. Nothing wrong with that.

What is really important is that my in-laws are neither rich nor poor. They have enough money to live and never asked me anything. The pigfarming is for them a way to gain some extra money and in the future maybe a way to get away from the pesticides on the ricefarms. Without them I couldn't do it ! All the family members are nice, hardworking people, no lame alcoholics !!!

Anyway, I gues I am just verry lucky

Frank

FarAwayBen · July 6, 2012

Frank,

How do they track numbers (money, pigs, age, date of conception, etc)? is it decipherable for you? How is your Isaan/Thai? Do you communicate through your wife, or directly? Who is in charge at the farm?

What's your business in Pattaya?

Ben

Brabo · July 7, 2012

Frank,

How do they track numbers (money, pigs, age, date of conception, etc)? is it decipherable for you? How is your Isaan/Thai? Do you communicate through your wife, or directly? Who is in charge at the farm?

What's your business in Pattaya?

Ben

Ben,

I write everything in excel-files on a dayly base ( Info by phone). They write down everything manualy. When I go there, I take my laptop and we double-check together. I don't give them a computer to work with. They don't have the knowledge. Probably I will teach the managing part later to our doughter. In a few years, when I live there, if all goes well .

I would like to share a few excel-files with you but they aren't in English . If you are interrested I will translate them for you and mail them in a PM.

The farm is near the Cambodian border, so everybody speaks Khmer. My knowledge of the Thai language isn't sufficent to make detailed phone-conversations so this is where the wife comes in. I often go alone to the farm and I can conversate with them. Partly Thai ( my side), partly Khmer (their side) and partly body-language . But every time we all learn.

As it is a family-run bussines, there is no-one really in charge of everything. Mom runs the financial part and takes care about sales. Dad does the hard work and construction. The son and doughter do what they are told. It just grow this way, it's a family-responcibility and everybody needs to help where help is needed. When I am there, I am not the "rich farang". I am a part of the family and live the Thai life. Wake up early, give food to the monks, ... I get a lot of respect from them and the neighborhood. In contrary to other "farangs" there who only flash with their money.

In Pattaya, I have a small bar .

Frank

COXYATCITY · July 7, 2012

Brabo,

I admire your ambition, as well as your ability to get your family to run your operation. How do you keep them "in line"? I'm guessing they are making a lot of buying and selling decisions in your absense.

Ben

Ben,

I am verry lucky with my in-laws. The whole idea of starting to take care pigs was theirs. I don't need to keep them in line. They are verry happy that they can breed and raise the pigs.

Every day we are on the phone with them, and all the descisions are made by me. I am listening to their suggestions offcourse. Afther all, they have a lot of experience and it gives them the feeling that they are appreciated.

When we started, I amazed them by telling them how many bags of food from each sort was still in stock. Only simple mathematics, but they knew i could control them if I wanted.

On selling, I inform them about the official prices and they always sell for higher prices. Nothing wrong with that.

What is really important is that my in-laws are neither rich nor poor. They have enough money to live and never asked me anything. The pigfarming is for them a way to gain some extra money and in the future maybe a way to get away from the pesticides on the ricefarms. Without them I couldn't do it ! All the family members are nice, hardworking people, no lame alcoholics !!!

Anyway, I gues I am just verry lucky

Frank

Frank,great to hear this,as i am in a similar situation.live in sin city,but our farm is in Surin. I also can trust in-laws,as my wife does the book work over the phone when we are not there ,my wife orders in the 9 ton of food, of which she is told every day what is sold,she call the sharks to find out what price we can get,,etc.happy days at the moment,now all of my sows are on the 2nd litter,just need the price of pork to go up.

,cheers Ian

Edited July 7, 2012 by COXYATCITY

IsaanAussie · July 7, 2012

Coxy,

So pleased to hear you bounced back on top. Good for you!

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