Popular Post Social Media Posted April 28 Popular Post Posted April 28 Tragic Missteps: New Report Reveals Critical Errors Behind Black Hawk and Jet Collision That Killed 67 A devastating new report has unveiled the fatal missteps that led to the collision between a Black Hawk helicopter and an American Airlines passenger jet, killing 67 people. The investigation found that Army Black Hawk pilot Capt. Rebecca Lobach did not comply with critical directions to alter her course seconds before the fatal incident. On the night of January 29, Capt. Lobach was undergoing her annual flight evaluation, with Chief Warrant Officer 2 Andrew Loyd Eaves serving as her instructor. According to details published by The New York Times, Lobach made several critical errors, including flying the Black Hawk too high and failing to heed advice from both air traffic control and her co-pilot moments before the crash. The crew was first alerted to the presence of an approaching aircraft during the evaluation flight. Despite acknowledging the proximity of the plane and spotting it visually, Lobach and Eaves requested to continue under "visual separation," a procedure that relies on pilots using their own observations to maintain a safe distance rather than strictly following air traffic control directions. Aviation experts noted, "The request to fly under those rules is granted routinely in airspace overseen by controllers. Most of the time, visual separation is executed without note. But when mishandled, it can also create a deadly risk — one that aviation experts have warned about for years." Fifteen seconds before the crash, air traffic control instructed the Black Hawk crew to turn left. Co-pilot Eaves reiterated the instruction directly to Lobach, telling her, according to the report, that "he believed that air traffic control wanted them to turn left, toward the east river bank." Nevertheless, Lobach did not make the turn, a decision that the report concluded "would have opened up more space between the helicopter and Flight 5342" if she had complied. Instead, tragedy struck as the helicopter and the jet collided, killing all 67 people aboard both aircraft. Lobach, an aviation officer from Durham, North Carolina, had accumulated around 500 hours of flight time and had previously served as a White House military social aide during the Biden administration. The investigation also revealed that a critical step was missed that night. According to Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) regulations, pilots must be explicitly informed if two aircraft are on a collision course. Experts concluded that "immediate intervention was needed" but did not occur, noting, "Direct, immediate intervention was needed that night. Instead of seeing and avoiding Flight 5342, Captain Lobach continued flying straight at it." Why Lobach failed to act remains a mystery. Investigators theorize that she may have been "blindsided" by the American Airlines flight’s maneuvering, specifically its "circling" of Runway 33—a crucial detail the Black Hawk crew may not have heard. It is believed that both pilots might have been pressing the microphone key while this information was transmitted. "If the key is depressed, the pilot can speak but not hear incoming communications," the report explained. There is no indication that Lobach experienced a medical emergency during the crash, and no pre-existing health issues were identified, according to those close to her and the investigation. Further complicating the situation, earlier findings from February indicated that the Black Hawk's altitude readings might have been inaccurate moments before the crash. NTSB Chair Jennifer Homendy explained that the helicopter’s crew missed critical instructions because a radio transmission "was stepped on," preventing them from hearing the words "pass behind the" during a crucial communication exchange. "At 8:47:42 — or 17 seconds before impact — a radio transmission from the tower was audible on both CVRs directing the Black Hawk to pass behind the CRJ," Homendy stated. The Black Hawk was conducting a check flight that night, and the crew were using night vision goggles throughout the mission. Investigators believe the goggles remained on until the collision. It was also discovered that the helicopter’s Automatic Dependent Surveillance–Broadcast (ADS-B) system was turned off for "no compelling reason," as Sen. Ted Cruz had previously told The New York Times. This system would have provided real-time location, altitude, and speed data, possibly preventing the collision. The American Airlines jet, piloted by 34-year-old Jonathan Campos, was preparing to land after flying from Wichita, Kansas. The jet had adjusted its approach to use a shorter runway at the request of air traffic control, a move confirmed by flight-tracking sites. Just two seconds before the collision, the passenger jet's altitude was recorded at 313 feet. The loss was immense, touching families across the country. Among the passengers were hunters, students and parents from northern Virginia schools, and members of the Skating Club of Boston, who were returning from a development camp following the 2025 U.S. Figure Skating Championships in Wichita. Related Topics: AA’s Diversity Policies Under Fire After Deadly Air Collision Midair Collision Near Reagan National Sends Plane into Potomac River Adpated by ASEAN Now from Daily Mail 2025-04-29 1 1 1
Popular Post mikeymike100 Posted April 29 Popular Post Posted April 29 Why military helicopters were allowed on the the flight path of ;planes near commercial airports, is in itself a mystery! 5 6 2 3 2
greg67 Posted April 29 Posted April 29 4 minutes ago, deadbeat said: Another dei failure. Who? You? 4 3 3 9
Popular Post JonnyF Posted April 29 Popular Post Posted April 29 2 hours ago, Social Media said: Despite acknowledging the proximity of the plane and spotting it visually, Lobach and Eaves requested to continue under "visual separation," a procedure that relies on pilots using their own observations to maintain a safe distance rather than strictly following air traffic control directions. Bad move. Women don't always have great spatial awareness and they aren't always prepared to listen to instructions either. My girlfriend made a similar, less formal request to continue under "visual separation" (despite my warnings) before reversing over our 6 week old puppy. Fortunately, puppies legs are surprisingly flexible and she eventually made a full recovery. 2 2 2 3 2 3
Popular Post spidermike007 Posted April 29 Popular Post Posted April 29 Well this is a massive failure, either on the part of air traffic control, the helicopter crew, or a third party. I hear that Reagan Airport airspace is incredibly congested, and they should have systems in place to prevent these kinds of occurrences. It never should have happened. 3 2
Popular Post hotsun Posted April 29 Popular Post Posted April 29 A lefty left a laughing emoji on the story 1 1 1 2 3
Popular Post Presnock Posted April 29 Popular Post Posted April 29 14 minutes ago, spidermike007 said: Well this is a massive failure, either on the part of air traffic control, the helicopter crew, or a third party. I hear that Reagan Airport airspace is incredibly congested, and they should have systems in place to prevent these kinds of occurrences. It never should have happened. yeah and based on this latest report, I even wonder why checkout flights were ever allowed in such areas. The pilot obviuosly didn't pay attention to the "turn" and yeah the altitude problem with the helicopter sure didn't help either. 2 1 2
Popular Post Tug Posted April 29 Popular Post Posted April 29 1 hour ago, Presnock said: yeah and based on this latest report, I even wonder why checkout flights were ever allowed in such areas. The pilot obviuosly didn't pay attention to the "turn" and yeah the altitude problem with the helicopter sure didn't help either. Waaaay to congested airspace for check out/training it was an unfortunate tragic incident the sex of the pilot in itself has no bearing or meaning just another horrible accident not the first nor the last. 3 1 1 2
Popular Post Purdey Posted April 29 Popular Post Posted April 29 I bet no one knows how many men have crashed helicopters. 2 2 1 1
Tug Posted April 29 Posted April 29 7 minutes ago, Purdey said: I bet no one knows how many men have crashed helicopters. When flying in extremely congested airspace wearing those night vision goggles/ horse binders……but ok go ahead brave men beat up on a dead service member patriot she’s dead so it’s safe …….just sad.I for one grieve ALL the dead am angered they would be flying choppers across the final approach to a busy airport.im certainly not onboard attacking the responsible pilot on account of their sex. 2 1 1 3
Popular Post impulse Posted April 29 Popular Post Posted April 29 3 hours ago, mikeymike100 said: Why military helicopters were allowed on the the flight path of ;planes near commercial airports, is in itself a mystery! In fairness, they were drilling on evacuating VIP politicians if SHTF under those conditions. Which means practicing in DC, around the DC airport. Because that's where they keep the VIP politicians. Edit: I'd say that I'm surprised that they'd tap a pilot with only 450 hours for that assignment. But she did tick the box. And she had apparently worked directly for Biden. Probably had Dr Jill's seal of approval. Where have we heard that one? 2 1
Popular Post impulse Posted April 29 Popular Post Posted April 29 36 minutes ago, Tug said: When flying in extremely congested airspace wearing those night vision goggles/ horse binders……but ok go ahead brave men beat up on a dead service member patriot she’s dead so it’s safe …….just sad.I for one grieve ALL the dead am angered they would be flying choppers across the final approach to a busy airport.im certainly not onboard attacking the responsible pilot on account of their sex. I don't know about you, but I want them to take the lessons learned so this NEVER happens again. Even if that reflects poorly on anyone involved, dead or alive. Or on any policy that may have contributed to the death of over 60 innocent people. 4 2 1
Tug Posted April 29 Posted April 29 3 minutes ago, impulse said: I don't know about you, but I want them to take the lessons learned so this NEVER happens again. Even if that reflects poorly on anyone involved, dead or alive. Or on any policy that may have contributed to the death of over 60 innocent people. +1 on that I just take umbrage at the DEI nonsense attacking someone on account of their sex a horrific tragedy and hopefully lessons learned. 2 2
thesetat Posted April 29 Posted April 29 4 hours ago, spidermike007 said: Well this is a massive failure, either on the part of air traffic control, the helicopter crew, or a third party. I hear that Reagan Airport airspace is incredibly congested, and they should have systems in place to prevent these kinds of occurrences. It never should have happened. They do have systems in place to prevent these types of incidences. The OP clearly states the woman did not comply with instructions given.. Perhaps she thought she knew better haha... This is what we get when people are forced to include a certain number of DEI into the ranks. 3 1 1 4
Popular Post Tug Posted April 29 Popular Post Posted April 29 12 minutes ago, thesetat said: They do have systems in place to prevent these types of incidences. The OP clearly states the woman did not comply with instructions given.. Perhaps she thought she knew better haha... This is what we get when people are forced to include a certain number of DEI into the ranks. Actually the MALE flight engineer was supposed to be a 3rd set of eyes…..tell ya what why don’t you vomit that nonsense to senator Tammie duckworth ehh she would still tear you to pieces even without her legs lost flying combat for our country and I might add her ancestry is Thai…..just sad 😞 1 1 1 1 1
thesetat Posted April 29 Posted April 29 1 hour ago, Tug said: Actually the MALE flight engineer was supposed to be a 3rd set of eyes…..tell ya what why don’t you vomit that nonsense to senator Tammie duckworth ehh she would still tear you to pieces even without her legs lost flying combat for our country and I might add her ancestry is Thai…..just sad 😞 How many women actually listen to a man? Especially in a stress situation. I am sure the air traffic controller was a man also that she was not listening to. She was in control of the craft. It does not matter what anyone else said or did not say. She did not listen or comply with critical instructions which caused the crash killing so many. 2 7 1
Watawattana Posted April 29 Posted April 29 7 hours ago, deadbeat said: Another dei failure. She must have passed her flying exams to the required standard. This was an annual flight evaluation, so she was a qualified pilot. The fact that's she female is irrelevant, there should have been no allowances made to her based on gender (if there was then those accountable should be held to account). If she was incompetent throughout her entire career (and it seems she was incompetent in this instance). There's been no evidence that I've seen of her ongoing incompetence, including not being good enough to get her wings. The investigation will uncover her piloting record and it'll likely become public domain. Aviation accidents usually get looked into in such a depth that pretty much everything and anything will come out. But yeah, I expect there's a a lot in this that if money wasn't wasted on DEI 💩 then all these people would still be with their familes. Money spent on DEI isn't being spent on procedures, training and systems that would have avoided this crash. Money spend on useless layers of management isn't being spent on procedures, training and systems that would have avoided this crash. This was an accident waiting to happen; a completely avoidable accident. Apparently there had been 100s of incidents around this airport that should have been acted upon, but were not, and the procedures were not changed when they should have been. Although it's easy to blame the pilot, I think it's better blame the pilot AND investigate why she was put into this position in the first place. DEI is a convenient excuse, but I'm not swallowing that; the root cause in my opinion is far deeper within the culture of the FAA than just the easy 'out' of blaming the woman. "Safety First" seems not to exist in the FAA. 3 4
Presnock Posted April 29 Posted April 29 16 hours ago, Tug said: Waaaay to congested airspace for check out/training it was an unfortunate tragic incident the sex of the pilot in itself has no bearing or meaning just another horrible accident not the first nor the last. from subsequent reports, the Defense Department and FAA have now cut out those helicopter flights in that location as yeah, too congested an area and obviously too dangerous too. These plus other issues brought about this horrible tragedy for these 67 and their families. 1 1
Tug Posted April 29 Posted April 29 13 hours ago, thesetat said: How many women actually listen to a man? Especially in a stress situation. I am sure the air traffic controller was a man also that she was not listening to. She was in control of the craft. It does not matter what anyone else said or did not say. She did not listen or comply with critical instructions which caused the crash killing so many. You just can’t help it…sad 1 1 3 1
morrobay Posted April 30 Posted April 30 16 hours ago, thesetat said: . She was in control of the craft. It does not matter what anyone else said or did not say. She did not listen or comply with critical instructions which caused the crash killing so many. She was at controls but the flight instructor co pilot had ultimate authority in the cockpit. So when this strange female pilot disregarded the evasive maneuver??. The co pilot flight instructor would be justified in taking control of the helicopter, by force if necessary. But did not ?? 1 1
JonnyF Posted April 30 Posted April 30 18 hours ago, thesetat said: Perhaps she thought she knew better haha... I'd bet my house that she had the last word in the debate. 😆 "Typical man - why won't you just admit I was rig....." 2 1
Presnock Posted April 30 Posted April 30 21 hours ago, Tug said: When flying in extremely congested airspace wearing those night vision goggles/ horse binders……but ok go ahead brave men beat up on a dead service member patriot she’s dead so it’s safe …….just sad.I for one grieve ALL the dead am angered they would be flying choppers across the final approach to a busy airport.im certainly not onboard attacking the responsible pilot on account of their sex. I haven't seen anyone beat up on the fact it was a female pilot- the only thing I said about her is that she failed to follow the instruction of the radar operator within the control tower.
stevenl Posted April 30 Posted April 30 19 minutes ago, Presnock said: I haven't seen anyone beat up on the fact it was a female pilot- the only thing I said about her is that she failed to follow the instruction of the radar operator within the control tower. Maybe you're a wise man and have the posters who posted this on ignore. "How many women actually listen to a man?" "Typical man - why won't you just admit I was rig....."
Watawattana Posted April 30 Posted April 30 18 minutes ago, Presnock said: I haven't seen anyone beat up on the fact it was a female pilot- the only thing I said about her is that she failed to follow the instruction of the radar operator within the control tower. I've worked in this industry for over 38 years, and been involved in quite a few investigations. The majority of accidents have multiple causal factors. The most common is called 'human factors'. Reading all that I have about this crash, and even in this thread there are some good points, what you've said Presnock is likely the final causal factor in this crash, not this first. And in between the first and the last there's likely dozens if not 100s of issues that led to that final failure; had any one of those items not been there then it's likely all of these souls would still be with their families. We used to call it the 'Swiss cheese effect', that cheese with all the holes in it. If all of the Swiss cheese slices align you can see all the way through, move one slice a little bit and all of a sudden you can't see all the way through. I got some points to make by asking everyone a question. At work or in personal life there is likely at least one occasion where your brain gets kind of over-loaded by information that takes a bit of time to sort out, but you probably were able to do so. Sensory overload is a name for it. A possible scenario is you are driving in bad weather, there's a car coming towards you with it's lights on main beam, the kids are fighting in the back, you lost a bunch of money at the craps table last night, you have a big issue at work, you're a bit hungover from last night, your wife is nagging at you as she saw a questionable message or photo on your phone and a dog runs out. Hope you get the picture. You brake you slide & crash, you swerve and you hit the oncoming car or a tree, you hit the horn and the dog stops to look at you so you run over the dog. Or, you take your foot off the gas and let the dog keep on going. Best is the last of course. But would you do this? You might if your parents shared their experiences with you and gave you that 'procedure' to follow to avoid the worst. Sorry this is long, but I'm trying to give a picture of the sensory overload that this pilot was likely going through. Night vision goggles at night, with literally 100s of external light sources. Possibly one of the flight crew chatting about the bar they're going to later, instructions to other aircraft that are on the same frequency as she's trying to listen to. Pressure from the USAF and her instructor to get this evaluation done without any delay or cancellation. Multiple relevant but possibly conflicting instructions from multiple sources on the actions to take to avoid catastrophe (radio, other flight crew, flight instruments, blaring ACAS alert etc.). The latter point is the final causal factor in Uberlingen - and they were male pilots. BANG! Other causal factors? Being allowed to fly visual in controlled airspace close to a busy airport. There's a biggie isn't it. That isn't allowed?, 99.999999999% certainty that this crash would never happen. The FAA's failure to assess this as one of the biggest risk factors, then mitigate that risk, is one of the biggest causal factors here. This poor woman was at the end of a very long chain of events (failures, holes in the Swiss cheese), nearly all of them solvable or avoidable, nearly every one of them, if fixed or avoided, would have meant that this accident would never have happened. But yes, her actions or inactions appear, at the end, to have led to this accident. Shame on anyone who automatically blames the woman. 1 1
Presnock Posted April 30 Posted April 30 40 minutes ago, Watawattana said: I've worked in this industry for over 38 years, and been involved in quite a few investigations. The majority of accidents have multiple causal factors. The most common is called 'human factors'. Reading all that I have about this crash, and even in this thread there are some good points, what you've said Presnock is likely the final causal factor in this crash, not this first. And in between the first and the last there's likely dozens if not 100s of issues that led to that final failure; had any one of those items not been there then it's likely all of these souls would still be with their families. We used to call it the 'Swiss cheese effect', that cheese with all the holes in it. If all of the Swiss cheese slices align you can see all the way through, move one slice a little bit and all of a sudden you can't see all the way through. I got some points to make by asking everyone a question. At work or in personal life there is likely at least one occasion where your brain gets kind of over-loaded by information that takes a bit of time to sort out, but you probably were able to do so. Sensory overload is a name for it. A possible scenario is you are driving in bad weather, there's a car coming towards you with it's lights on main beam, the kids are fighting in the back, you lost a bunch of money at the craps table last night, you have a big issue at work, you're a bit hungover from last night, your wife is nagging at you as she saw a questionable message or photo on your phone and a dog runs out. Hope you get the picture. You brake you slide & crash, you swerve and you hit the oncoming car or a tree, you hit the horn and the dog stops to look at you so you run over the dog. Or, you take your foot off the gas and let the dog keep on going. Best is the last of course. But would you do this? You might if your parents shared their experiences with you and gave you that 'procedure' to follow to avoid the worst. Sorry this is long, but I'm trying to give a picture of the sensory overload that this pilot was likely going through. Night vision goggles at night, with literally 100s of external light sources. Possibly one of the flight crew chatting about the bar they're going to later, instructions to other aircraft that are on the same frequency as she's trying to listen to. Pressure from the USAF and her instructor to get this evaluation done without any delay or cancellation. Multiple relevant but possibly conflicting instructions from multiple sources on the actions to take to avoid catastrophe (radio, other flight crew, flight instruments, blaring ACAS alert etc.). The latter point is the final causal factor in Uberlingen - and they were male pilots. BANG! Other causal factors? Being allowed to fly visual in controlled airspace close to a busy airport. There's a biggie isn't it. That isn't allowed?, 99.999999999% certainty that this crash would never happen. The FAA's failure to assess this as one of the biggest risk factors, then mitigate that risk, is one of the biggest causal factors here. This poor woman was at the end of a very long chain of events (failures, holes in the Swiss cheese), nearly all of them solvable or avoidable, nearly every one of them, if fixed or avoided, would have meant that this accident would never have happened. But yes, her actions or inactions appear, at the end, to have led to this accident. Shame on anyone who automatically blames the woman. in addition the army said the altimeter in the helicopter was faulty from the altitude that the control tower was measuring 1
impulse Posted April 30 Posted April 30 40 minutes ago, Watawattana said: But yes, her actions or inactions appear, at the end, to have led to this accident. Shame on anyone who automatically blames the woman. I don't see anyone "automatically blaming the woman". I do see people questioning why anyone with 450 hours would be assigned to fly VIP politicians in and out of such a hazardous airport. And noting that the guy she disobeyed was her instructor pilot, though she outranked him. Which is another puzzler. 1 1
morrobay Posted April 30 Posted April 30 1 hour ago, impulse said: I don't see anyone "automatically blaming the woman". I do see people questioning why anyone with 450 hours would be assigned to fly VIP politicians in and out of such a hazardous airport. And noting that the guy she disobeyed was her instructor pilot, though she outranked him. Which is another puzzler. Not a puzzler: Warrant officers are the technical experts in helicopters. And again have ultimate command in the cockpit.
billd766 Posted April 30 Posted April 30 On 4/29/2025 at 8:23 AM, deadbeat said: Another dei failure. Please explain how you managed to reach that conclusion, which id completely at odds with the official AAIB conclusion? Were you on the investigation team? Do you have access to information that the investigators were not privy? Or are you spouting BS as many posters seem to do? How much aircraft accident investigation training have you had? 1
Ralf001 Posted April 30 Posted April 30 On 4/29/2025 at 8:23 AM, deadbeat said: Another dei failure. Agree, 100%. 2 3 1
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