Pigs 101 (A Start)

[jompa67]

Randall, how many piglet are you weaning in average each month per sow? I'm curious because we used betagro sow in the past and we use to get betwine 9 - 11 average weaned/month. Mostly close to 9

I dont have any data about the breed we use today but it is alot more. We had to bring in an external to tech us how to manage high performance sow and its piglet. The biggest problem we had was the food from Betagro (Balance). Sow could not eat enough of it and piglet get to little milk which result in that many weak piglets died. CPF food is of better quality and sow did eat more, but not enough. But the best result is when i mix my own food.

This is just some of the problem you facing when you raising your own piglets.

[IsaanAussie]

Hi pigsters,

I have been raising bought in piglets to 100k for 3 years now. We raise around 100-120 pigs in 4 months which comes to about 30 each month.

I now am at the stage that my trusted piglet supplier may not be able to supply enough piglets if I want to expand further and I feel I am getting too dependent on them. Since I do not fancy getting piglets from unknown suppliers I think its time to try my hand at breeding.

I want to start with 3-4 sows and am currently planning the breeding facilities. I don’t have a strong position on the gestation crate/ gestation pen discussion but are a bit worried about the potential leg problems/bed-sores with sows staying most of their lives in gestation crates. A second arguments against gestation crates is the opposition against them in many countries and I wonder. what is going to happen if the ASEAN markets open.

But I also have had some bad experiences with group housing larger pigs and worry about introducing new gilts to a a group.

So I thought I might do the following; any comments and suggestions, are very much appreciated.

1) House 4 sows in 4 individual 2-3meter pens. This would give them room to lay down on their sides and stand/walk a bit. These dimensions are similar to the pen of my boar and he seems quite happy

Would these dimensions be OK?

2) The boar is in a separate 2-4 meter pen (have had him over a year as a hobby pig since I didnt have any sows).

3) The boar would ‘ service’ the sows in their own pens and they would stay in their pen until a few days before planned birth.

4) I have got a second hand farrowing crate which I plan to put in a special 2-3m farrowing pen.

A few days before the planned birth I would lead the sow to the farrowing crate where she and the piglets would stay until after weaning. Then the piglets would go to their small pens and the sow back to her individual pen.

5) I am considering getting one gestation crate to make AI easier if ‘natural’ impregnation is not possible/unsuccessful. Would this be wise or can AI be done easily in the individual pens described.

Question: Can I put the sow-pens next to the boar’s (easy to ‘service’) or should I put the farrowing pen / small piglets pens in between?

For this phase of my operation I have 14-4 meters to work with. If it is successful I might build another bigger facility.

But I want to try breeding on a small scale first because of several reasons, one of the main ones being that I don’t have full time electricity at my farm. Prices to getting an electricity line there have been prohibitive and I use a generator. And I cannot run that cost effectively at night for heating lamps for the small piglets.

And the individual stalls could easily be used in my current raising to 100kg operation if my breeding is not successful

Again, any comments and suggestions are very much appreciated.

Thanks,

Revar.

Revar,

I do not believe a 2 by 3 metre pen is not big enough. Too wide and not long enough. Modern sows are 2 metres, some bigger. There is not enough room for her to walk between feed and water. Leg and feet problems for sure. Obviously that size pen would be too small for piglets as well, or for mating. I was using 1.5 by 5 metre pens as farrowing and nursery pens. There is a removeable barrier cum feeder for the sow 1 metre from the front of the pen. This is the creep area. When it is time to wean the piglets the barrier and the sow are removed. The important thing to note is the piglets are not exposed to a new environment (pen). The only improvement I would make now is to install bolster rails down each side to prevent the sow jamming the piglets against the walls.

If I can make a suggestion, you could fit your 14x4 area out as the breeding area. The service alley actually being part of the pens. Say you made an individual pen 1.5 metres wide and the full 4 metres. at the back of the side walls you put in a gate also 1.5m long. By opening the gates you form the alley way. The boar is housed at one end. You have a large open pen initially for breeding but gradually used for more boars and sows. Then you have your 4 or more sow pens to start. To do heat detection you "open/close" all the side gates and let the boar roam the back alley.

My sty is set as batch housing 4 sows per pen. The two boar pens are side by side with a gilt (4) pen on one side and returning sows (4) pen on the other. I have a system of large side gates in all the pens and found the ability to move pigs easily without having to run them in the centre aisle very handy.

[ChiangMaiPigFarmer]

Revar, I need to apologize, I did not "think" about your size statement - Isaan is correct. Sorry for not being complete in my answer.

Jompa, great questions and you really make me think. Yes, I did notice problems with Betagro Balance feed, but do not note those same problems with Betagro Farm feed (both divisions of Betagro).

I, my wife and I, go back and forth on the feed issue. We are not really big enough to set up a mill to do a good job mixing feed. I have a cement mixer that is perfect for mixing a 100 kilo batch and we do use that at times. The problem (here, for me) is that I do not feel I can trust the staff to mix accurately all of the time. Secondly when I do some mixing on my own I worry that the pigs are not getting enough minerals and vitamins. I have tried using sow bean meal and skin rice mixed with commercial feed and had okay results. This past February my feed bill was 275,000 baht and that really set me back (had a lot of piglets and new gilts). I started mixing my own feed but soon decided that I really am not knowledgeable about feed and really do not have the desire to become an expert so I went back to Betagro Farm. We have talked about using the 12% protein feed and then upping the protein with sow bean meal as that is cheaper than buying the higher grade. I confuse myself!

If anyone needs a microscope I have some in stock for about 8,000 baht that will do nicely. I am having fun working with the new world of microscopes, the lensfree miniature scopes smaller than your fist that will do all of the WHO sperm standard examination. The problem, they are not on market yet! You can see some of my work in this area on www.Micro-Scoping.com. I think we are still a year away from an affordable sperm analysis system for every day AI swine, and other, farmers. CASA will be replaced by AII (Artificial Intelligent Insemination TM).

The weaning question: I farrow an average of 12 with 11.1 live and 9.8 wean. Not good enough for a good profit albeit with the price of pig back up there is profit. When the piglets are selling in the 1,200 baht range I figure a wean rate of 7.5 is about break even. When at 1,900 it is easier to make money. But 9.8 is still not good enough.

I purchased 40 high quality LW/LR gilts that were suppose to be highly prolific pigs. Total disaster. They came from a farm that is under total evap to an open farm. Instead of getting the expected 2.2 piglet per month average from them I am getting .9 (overall when looking at the total purchased including culled sows). Within two years I have culled 38%. Spending the 200,000 baht to get them into the program hurt, not getting a good return is hurting more - yesterday one farrowed her third litter - 6 live 6 dead (I forgive a gilt with her first litter whatever the size), when she weans she will be culled as she is not paying her way..... My point, be sure you get a new gilt that it compatible with your farm environment.

[IsaanAussie]

Well CMPF, I have been waiting for you to answer Jompha's questions first. I am not surprised that your response is almost the same as my own.

I have never had an issue with the gestation or lactation grades of Balance. To me the climate here is as good as you can get for the piglets but just too hot and humid for a sow with a large litter. They simply cannot eat enough and get rid of the energy component in the feed. I used to supplement their feed with milk powder or high protein vegetable matter. Start creep feeding after 5 days with a lot of milk powder for the piglets as well. I would recommend looking into the actual temperature in the farrowing area. Do what you can to reduce sow heat stress.

I had 4 high performance Landrace gilts at the start. Complete disaster and I sold them all after their second litters. After that all durocs sows, all bred on farm. Averaged 9 weaned from 10 or 11 farrowed for the first two years and gradually built up to average about 11 from 13 with the best litter of 13 weaned from 16.

[ChiangMaiPigFarmer]

Issan, well put.

I met a farmer from Lampoon the other day that was taking his finished pigs to the butcher. Beautiful pigs! His formula for breed: Sows all 100% Landrace and boar 100% Duroc. The LR gives good mothering and milk and litter size while the Duroc gives lean bulk.

I have learned working the Thai Gov Research Center that a 75 DU with 25 PT (Pietrain) actually is a better boar.

If I were to ever do a total end-to-end operation (God please forbid that, I am 70 years old and do not need another venture) I would use the LR with DU/PT on the farm. And I would never purchase a pig from an Evap farm and expect them to perform. In the past I have purchased many different gilts looking for the best. The best always end up being the ones I breed and raise myself in the environment I want them to perform in. Tomorrow (today) my baht stays in my pocket and I raise my own, I usually have about 40 gilts at various stages to replace the culled and to give a little side income.

[jompa67]

Yes, large litter and heat is a big problem, but also the only way to make profit. We phase feeding them the first days to ensure that all of them have get enough of colostrum. And if other sows have farrowed within 24 hour, we move the large piglets to the sow that are best fitted for the task and smaller once to other (uniform groups). After one week we repeat same procedure. After a week or two we start moving some of the piglet to a sow that just has left her litter (weaning) and use her as a surrogate sow.

With large litter (15 - 20 piglets) a sow need to eat at least 8 kg feed/day. If a sow just eat 3 to 4 kg a day, we know she have problem and start a medication program. We also start with Creep feed after 3 days, additional Artificial colostrum for the two first days and milk for the next 10, vitamin in drinking water all the time.

My target:

2013 => Just don't care (still have some betagro sow to cull + alot of learning)

2014 => 12 weaned/month

2015 => 13 weaned/month

[IsaanAussie]

I tried a few other breeds but Durocs suit me, they are quite and placid pigs. Never had one I didn't like. Cannot say the same about Landrace pigs, noisy sods. But that is just my opinion.

I ran a 4x4 batching system and each batch of 4 sows comprised a set of sisters. That made group housing easy as they had lived together their whole lives. It also allowed me to grow out a few more and make the final 4 selection just under the 100kg mark. By that stage they have had boar exposure and I was always pretty confident they would make good sows. Keeping their seasons close together made it easier to make sure farrowing a batch of 4 each month was done within a week at worst.

As a point of interest, I only had two litters ever delivered at night in five years. Almost always farrowing would start between 6 and 8 am. Civilized sows! The two that started early got sent back to clock reading class with the training gilts. They didn't repeat the offence.

[ChiangMaiPigFarmer]

Isaan, where can I sign my sows up for that clock class. You could market it if you could produce it.

Jompa, sounds like a lot litter mixing with the potential each time of moving a germ line from the mother (albeit they all probably have close to the same germs but some sows produce better residence than others). Not that we do it right - we mix after the first +/- 20 hours then not again until they get to the nursery. If two are farrowing at the very same time we would mix right away, not only based on piglet size but based on the numbers each has to care for.

Another thing we often do if the piglets are close to the same age is to open the gate between two farrowing cages (we have 10 sets) and let the piglets start to mix groups at about 18 days old. Easier to get good usage of nursery cages when they already "like" each other and the buyers like groupings of around 20 that they will raise to market together.

[IsaanAussie]

Let you in on the secret, no lights at night. Other than that I have no idea why they didn't farrow at night more often. If one was due I would go over at dawn and sit with the sow for an hour or so, come home for breakfast and then go back. Often the first one or two piglets would have arrived. Just luck I guess.

I seldom moved piglets and only if the litters were close in age and within the first day or so. If I was going to grow them out then I would sex segregate in the nursery. At the start I was using full size pens for the sows to farrow and the piglets would jump through the side gates separating the pens. Four pens in a row and four litters playing tag up and down the back. After a while they used to have a preferred pen to sleep in, spot to <deleted> in and waterer they each liked. But as soon as the first sow called it was back into Mums pen to eat for all of them.

I saw a video once of these guys holding piglet races and reckon some of my piglets would have cleaned up over the jumps. They were fun times.

[revar]

IA and Randall ; Let me first thank you for your advice. You saved me from a potential costly mistake.
IA, do you mean/advice
A) Creating four 1.5x4 meter farrowing/weaning pens and 2 4x4 meter sow-pens which each house 2.
Or do you mean
B: Four 1.5x4m farrowing pens with one 8x4meter pen in which 4 sows could stay if they are not farrowing. The last option would have pregnant sows and sows which just finished weaning housed together. Does this not create problems?
Both options use the 14x4m space (my already existing boar-pen is next to this area).
I am a bit confused on why 2 meter wide is worse then 1.5m wide.
In your description of the walkway for the boar it seems like you advice to have the sows stay in the 1.5x4 pens all the time and not in a bigger group pen. Still no room to walk and expected leg problems. The pdf file with your pen-plan on TV probably explains it but for some reason I can’t download or open them. Always are refused permission even when I am fully logged in.
As a third alternative
C) I might just create 3 4x4 individual pens for 3 sows in which they would live, mate, farrow and wean.
I have been spending the day cutting galvanized iron fences made of 3cm thick piping used to house boars at a pig farm which is quitting. I have enough for 3 4meter long fences which I could mount in holes in a concrete floor and brackets in the outside walls as pen dividers. If I create these small holes in the concrete every meter I would in practice have a flexible system with which I could make pens smaller or bigger if necessary.
Or I could use these fences to create a 1.5m wide farrowing area in a 4x4 pen if necessary.
Not sure about how to use them but at 10thb/kg I am sure I could use the iron someway

[IsaanAussie]

Revar I admit to having consumed a few Leos so the quality tonight is not good. But let me say this, you have 14x4 metres to maximise. I am quite happy to help you plan that but I have no idea of what you really want to do. There is enough room to run a boar and 4 sows separately housed as well as a detection/breeding/AI area and a nursery pen/s plus plus...

The real answer is as a single pen a modern pig needs 1.4 metres to turn around. That is minimum width. Maximise the length between eat and drink/shit and that is the exercise yard length.

The rest is a few concrete posts, blocks and some steel tubing. Come have a look!

[thedoctor]

guys sorry to intrude in your inteligent conversation,

But about 3 / 4 weeks ago i got some more piglets i now have 58 ,, i got 15 in all. which were a 6 and a 9 batch,

the 6 lot were about 12 / 15 kg,,

and the 9 batch were about 6 kg 8kg

the breeder told my other half they were eating ,, topfeed 591..

we use topfeed so no problems we think

i have two problems, the 6 lot developed a red tint skin within two days . i thought it might have been caused due to the sun getting into the pen in the late afternoon because that pen is the last one in the row,

so i put up shade cloth to stop the late afternoon sun, i noticed on a morning they dont have red skin... untill after they eat 592... so we rang the breeder she then told us they have been eating mostly Ram with a little 591 and this does happen, so we shouldnt be concerned ,,, is this correct ?

2nd question...

sloppy shit,,

we have sloppy shit from the piglets so i got the vet,, he told us to feed banana leaves and he injected Enro 150 to stop the sloppy shit

that didnt work,, and banana leaves dont stop the shit

then another breeder who we buy from injected ,,Lemisol,,, for worms,,4 days ago that hasnt stoped the shits either

but what i notice is ,, the shits are at night time the pens are cleaned in the mornings and there's sloppy all over ,,

but through the day they shit better stools

they eat the same food day and night

i clean continually, i spend most my time there like others i know on this forum,

i try to have clean living spaces for well looked after animals but at this time cant stop the night time shits

the 6 lot of are now on topfeed592 they are close to 25 kg still get the red skin after eating,,

the 9 lot are still on topfeed 591 with shits and are about 16 kg so both lots are gaining weight and look healthy

any ideas would be helpfull

sms if you want because i us the internet shop 0844486100

regards mick

[IsaanAussie]

I will take a stab and say zinc deficiency. Both reddening and the squirts can occur. But since the situation changes through the day and the reddening is after eating it sounds more like a fungal issue.Noticed any mould or dampness in the feed? What about the water supply, clean no green moulds?

[revar]

Mick,

Enro is mostly used for bigger pigs. For smaller ones inject colistin. You can also get a power mix of colistin and amoxilin for In the drinking water If you use small drink basins. A tell is the color of the shit. If it's yellowish use colistin. If it's dark and Enro does not work use try tylosin.

But remember, you need at least 3 injections. One every day for all of these medicins.

As IA says, lack of zinc or vitamins might also be the cause, especially If they have been eating ram instead of proper food. So. Mix a vitamin mix in their food for a few days.

Are you sure that the shit comes out this sloppy? It could be that they just pee in it at night.

But If the stools are dark don't worry too much about sloppy shit as long as it's not completely liquid and they are nice and fat. Sloppy shit might be normal with the type of food you use. Check with your supplier.

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[IsaanAussie]

Yo Revar,

The piglets will probably be scoured. I am no vet but I never liked to use drugs on piglets, in particular when the digestive tract is concerned. Scours are not a good start to develop a digestive tract, the performance of the pig is permanently weakened. After speaking with thedoctor earlier I believe the issue is fungal or bacteria and that one or both sets of piglets had it before they arrived. There is a possibility that it maybe the pigs water supply or a change in the environment between the farms that has aggravated the situation. It is also possible it is feed compound aggravated.

But they are eating and gaining weight so I would be looking more for the cause than trying for a chemical cure. At their current weight I doubt the damage will get much worse. Obvious things, one at a time. Change feed brands and drop back a grade to get a maximum animal protein into their diets. Get some EM into the drinking system to get a healthy gut microflora. That will take 1 to 2 weeks. Ask around for herbs and weeds that the locals use for the squirts. Use that sparingly. The runny excretions in the night to me mean the upset is not serious and is likely triggered by body temperature variations. They will huddle to sleep and the body temperatures can be hotter at night. They sleep with a full stomach. They also do not drink much at night.

One last thing, Try and answer the question, are all the piglets effected? They probably are or they are playing pass the parcel between them. If you can separate healthy ones you will at least have some that are not damaged as much.

[revar]

I agree on them being scourced. Especially of they have had ram instead of proper creep food. Your approach is similar to mine and I fully agree with your treatment. But I was really surprise about enro. It's just not a medicine for small piglets. My phone battery ran out so I could not be more complete. I offered Mick to give e a call. To properly diagnose more info is needed. I have had a lot of success with raising small 4-12 kg piglets which had the wrong types of food..medicines are useful in some cases but only as a last resort. But since these small piglets can die within a few days you can't wait too long. I would not advice Mick to buy from the same piglet supplier again, but If you regularly buy 4-10Kg instead of expensive 15+ ones you will need medication to combat the results of underdeveloped digestive tracts. That said: I have about 40-50 4-10kg piglets all the time and only use medicines on less then 10%. Death rate in is under 5% and I get them to 100Kg in just over 4 months.

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[revar]

If you do not mix your own feed you are most likely already using drugs. Most if not all commercial creep Feeds and feeds for pigs to 15-20 kg have colistin added to them. And other types others . Even antibiotics like amoxylin are sometimes added. Ask the feed company vet about the added medicines/Minerals for each type.

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[revar]

Had a 40kg pig with a hernia, a big sack under his belly. It opened and the intestines trailed out on the ground

. No potential buyers so I decided to operate and try to keep the intestines in with a network of string since there was no way I could pull the skin together. Operated, 3 days of amoxylin antibiotics and today, 3 weeks later sold it (,No way the string would hold until the pig was 100 kg.

the message here.Don't be afraid. IF I hadn't done anything it would have died. Now I have at least some of my investment t back.

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[ChiangMaiPigFarmer]

You and I have to have a good laugh together some time. I had a pig born without a rectum. I thought it is going to die anyway so why not try make him one. I operated but I rectum.

Oh yes, it is a true story. Ever since then my nick name has been "More Santepop" (spelling is as it sounds) - Dr. Nice Guy

[revar]

Did he survive? My first operation was shortening the intestines of a pig with severe necrosis after a rectal prolapse.

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[ChiangMaiPigFarmer]

No! Like I said, I rectum (wrecked him).....

He would have died anyway - now I know a novice can not make a . ......well you write the rest of the line,

Santepop

[IsaanAussie]

CMPF,

I am no vet either. Nor do I hold grudges against pigs. Now people, mate that's different. I would like to cut a new fundamental orifice in quite a few.

Revar,

You continue to amaze me. You will have a go at anything, more power to you.

[jompa67]

What type of PRRS vaccine is best to use? Living or dead.

[ChiangMaiPigFarmer]

You need both.

PRRS Live vaccine,

2 ml/pig, from 4 weeks of age, for all weights, ages and sex.

• Generally, it is advisable to vaccinate all pigs with one dose between the age of 4 and 5 weeks.

PRRS Inactivated vaccine

Swine: 2 ml/sow.

• Generally, the following vaccination program is recommended:
  Gilts: Administer two vaccinations within a 3 week interval when entering the farm. Thereafter, follow the same vaccination program as in the sows.
  Sows (pregnancy or lactation): Administer two vaccinations within a 3 to 4 week interval. Thereafter, administer a booster vaccination every 4 months to all the sows.

The four months corresponds to your before you breed schedule,

Randy

Info from the site I wrote http://www.biotechagribusiness.com/BioProPRRSSuipravac.html (inactive)

http://www.biotechagribusiness.com/BioProPRRSAmervac.html (active)

[ChiangMaiPigFarmer]

The site is BioTechAgriBusiness

[jompa67]

So it is Inactivated vaccine for sow and gilts, right?

Inactivated, is that same as killed vaccine?

[ChiangMaiPigFarmer]

Yes, inactivated and dead are the same thing.

All pigs start with a live vaccine. If you are just starting you need to vaccinate all you pigs first.

After that - any new gilt born on your farm gets live vaccine at 4 weeks old. If you are going to vaccinate finishing piglets they also get live vaccine at 4 weeks old (most customers will not want to pay the extra +/- 60 baht). Any new pigs you bring on to your farm get live vaccine first.

Then you are working with dead/inactive vaccine for booster (as per schedule in first message0

Any gilts purchased would get live when arriving and then get the dead booster 3 weeks later (we do not do that, we give the booster prior to breeding)

[jompa67]

Whats the reason for mixing live and killed vaccine?

[ChiangMaiPigFarmer]

You don't mix them. The live starts the process and the dead acts as a booster to maintain the immunity.

The live is only needed once for each pig to "start the ball rolling" and the inactivated/dead vaccine "kicks the ball to keep it moving down the road".

[revar]

How important are the storage conditions for periods under 24 hours? in my first year of pigfarming (At another location) I vaccinated all my finishing pigs. The shop would only sell the vaccin if you brought your ice bucket. But later I did see the vaccin arriving in unrefrigerated trucks in the afternoon. These came from Bangkok ( A 5 hour drive). They had no boosters (Inactive).

In the local pprs outbreak a month later I lost 80% of my pigs. I have always wondered...

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