Visa Refusal Switzerland

[nika64]

My Thai GF's Visa for Switzerland was rejected twice, for very vague reasons. She first applied for a visa and we provided all the necessary docs, like visa application form, PP, Insurance policy, sponsor guarantuee letter, flight reservation, employer statement, etc.

Here some background info about us:

- I am Dutch and live in Switzerland since 2001 (permit C); I have a good job as an IT Consultant

- my Thai gf lives in Chiang Mai and works as a Marketing representative

- I know my GF since Sept 2009 via the internet. We started chatting every day and got really interested in eachother. So I planned a trip to Thailand in Nov 2009 for 3 weeks.

- I went again to Thailand for 3 weeks in March 2010 to visit her family in Chiang Mai

- As from Sept 2009 we have contact daily by chat and phone.

After 1 week the visa was rejected:

1. the purpose and conditions of her stay cannot be ascertained

2. intention of return to Thailand cannot be ascertained.

After the first refusal you have to request a formal decision for Switzerland. She brought all docs to the Embassy again but besides being rude, they only took the visa application form.

But it went into the pipeline. After 2 months I got mail from the officials in CH to fill in a statement and provide docs that proved my financial stability, etc (had to send them 3 recent monthly salary slips).

Then we had to wait again. After again 1 month or so I got a letter of REFUSAL stating:

******************

- In the particular case, given all the elements in the record of the applicant's personal situation (young, single, no dependencies) and the socio-economic situation prevailing in her country of origin, FOM (Federal Migration Office) believes, like the Swiss representation in Bangkok, the output of the Schengen area at the end of the stay requested cannot be regarded as sufficiently guaranteed.

- the FOM cannot exclude that once entry into the Schengen area, the applicant - who has not demonstrated possession of the item close ties with their country of origin - does not want to prolong its presence in the hope of finding better living conditions than those she knows in her homeland.

- the FOM is still doubtful about the real intentions of the person concerned, especially given the relationship with the host and invitee.

- the fact that she is planning to leave her country of origin for such a long duration (three months) is also not very reassuring in this regard.

*********

I realized to get a visa for Switzerland is not easy, expecially when they became part of the Schengen agreement..

To me, the above issues for refusal are really somewhat vague. The main reason for refusal could be that they did not have all the necessary docs and therfore came up with these issues.

In the refusal letter there was mentioned a possibility for appeal but I asked a Swiss lawyer and he said it would not have that much chance.

So what can we do? I thought about applying again but we then have to make sure to deal with the above refusal points properly, which probably will be though.

Well, in the meantime we got married in Thailand. I went there in Sept 2010 for 3 weeks (the plan was to marry next year but due to the visa refusal we thought it would be better to marry asap).

The marriage is official and legalized and we made it a proper wedding (rings, photo session, wedding party, etc)

I have a few questions:

1. Should we apply for a spouce visa or a residence permit ( and for how long? (the first request was 3 months, which is the max, and this was not in our favor)

2. What kind of documents/prove can we best provide extra to increase the chance to get the visa?

3. Might it be easier to get the visa via Holland?

I would appreciate some general advice.

Many thanks in advance,

Nils

[prometheus]

Interesting.

It could be that , as they rightly stated, your girl friend is going to be there for 3 months which they would consider a bit too long period for someone earning a salary in Chiangmai to be financially able.

Since now your girl friend has a visa-refusal marked on her passport, it is quite difficult to play it out now without having to explain to another embassy of what the reasons were for refusal.

I would suggest the following

1. Shorten your length of visit, perhaps down to 1-2 weeks, its a lot easier to get a second visa after you had the first one.

2. A good bank statement would do, more than enough to cover entire trip, I would estimate 1000 euro per week for visiting EU area.

3. Since you are now married it should be easier.

If none of those go through, then try travelling to other countries first, if this is the first time your girl friend travels outside thailand it could be viewed suspiciously. All visa applications require you to state previous destinations where the person has been granted entry, it adds to the credibility that the person is there for genuine tourism purpose and not as an economic migrant.

Good luck and congratulations on your marriage.

[KHUNDAN]

So sad to see these same things happening over and over.

We are always jumping before we walk in life.

Oh well sometimes we must learn by doing.

Cheers and good luck..

[nika64]

Interesting.

It could be that , as they rightly stated, your girl friend is going to be there for 3 months which they would consider a bit too long period for someone earning a salary in Chiangmai to be financially able.

Since now your girl friend has a visa-refusal marked on her passport, it is quite difficult to play it out now without having to explain to another embassy of what the reasons were for refusal.

I would suggest the following

1. Shorten your length of visit, perhaps down to 1-2 weeks, its a lot easier to get a second visa after you had the first one.

2. A good bank statement would do, more than enough to cover entire trip, I would estimate 1000 euro per week for visiting EU area.

3. Since you are now married it should be easier.

If none of those go through, then try travelling to other countries first, if this is the first time your girl friend travels outside thailand it could be viewed suspiciously. All visa applications require you to state previous destinations where the person has been granted entry, it adds to the credibility that the person is there for genuine tourism purpose and not as an economic migrant.

Good luck and congratulations on your marriage.

Thanks for your quick response. We think about shorten the period to 3-4 weeks for the visa (1 week is a bit short for a visit from Thailand and she is my wife so in fact we want to be together).

We did not provide a bank statement because I wrote a sponsor guarantee letter in which I declare to cover all costs (flight, insurance, accomodation, etc).

Question: if she gets a residence permit (, can she then visit Holland or does she need a visa for that? (it might be an option to obtain a residence permit first and then request a visa for Holland)

[Moo72]

A Schengen visa is valid only for Tourism, Visit or Business purposes and gives the right for a temporary stay in Switzerland of 3 months maximum. I must precise that Swiss Immigration (ODM, or Cantonal Police) does not extend the duration of the visa, except for medical reason. It is not extended for avoiding foreigner illegal work. If a foreigner overstays its visa, then he or she will be deported and blacklisted for 5 years maximum the first time.

However, you have to know that having a valid Schengen visa for your wife will not give her the right to stay in Switzerland through a Permit B (1 year permit ), because the process for granting a Permit B is quite different. For this, she should have a Swiss Visitor Visa first (valid 3 months). Be prepared that Swiss Immigration (ODM and Cantonal Police) check her and your background too and that you can show that you have sufficient funds for taking care of her ( taxes, mandatory insurances, etc...).

After having her Permit B granted, she would be able to travel in all countries of the Schengen Zone without visa anymore...:-)

I am not surprised that the visa of your wife has been rejected. I know two Thai nationals married with Swiss nationals having their visa rejected too. But as you know, xenophobia and nationalism (SVP / UDC) are on the rise in Switzerland, unfortunately.

Good luck anyway

[VisasPlus]

Forgive me if I have missed something here, but if you are an EU national ( which you appear to be ) and you are now married to a Thai lady, then she has the right to join you in Switzerland as an EU Family Member. The following refers:

" FAMILY REUNION

EU/EFTA nationals who have been

granted the right to stay in Switzerland

are allowed to send for the members of

their family in a direct line and for

whom they provide maintenance "

The above is an extract from a document isued by the Swiss Federal Office for Migration (FOM). The link to the document is

http://www.bfm.admin.ch/content/dam/data/migration/publikationen/swissemigration/eures-aufenthalt-e.pdf

If you agree that the above is correct then you should apply to the Swiss Embassy for an EU Family Permit for your wife. In theory, you should have to do little more than prove the relationship, show evidence that you are legally employed in Switzerland, and show evidence that you can support your wife.

[kevinburke2]

Actually, something is changing in the swiss law about immigration. Becouse of previous abuse, now they are thinking about void the C working permit to those residents that are unemployed for more then a year. In this case they are very carfull not to give reunion family permition to people who cannot demonstrate to be regurally emplyed for a long term. If you had experience to be unemployed for a while in the past, this is enought to get refused visa even for a wife or sun or doughter.

This is incredible but true. In the common mind of swiss generation, you should get married only with swiss citizen to consolidate the ealth economy and richness of Switzerland. Do not forget that statistically, more then 40% of swiss citizen do not do holidays abroad just becouse they dont like to give their money to other countries.

Forgive me if I have missed something here, but if you are an EU national ( which you appear to be ) and you are now married to a Thai lady, then she has the right to join you in Switzerland as an EU Family Member. The following refers:

" FAMILY REUNION

EU/EFTA nationals who have been

granted the right to stay in Switzerland

are allowed to send for the members of

their family in a direct line and for

whom they provide maintenance "

The above is an extract from a document isued by the Swiss Federal Office for Migration (FOM). The link to the document is

http://www.bfm.admin...ufenthalt-e.pdf

If you agree that the above is correct then you should apply to the Swiss Embassy for an EU Family Permit for your wife. In theory, you should have to do little more than prove the relationship, show evidence that you are legally employed in Switzerland, and show evidence that you can support your wife.

Edited October 3, 2010 by kevinburke2

[glegolo]

It is all about that the country in question want to be as certain as they possible can that the thai lady goes back to Thailand again after the trip to that Country.

In my case (Sweden), it was no problem, but i could show them that I lived in Thailand since a couple of years and that me and my wife have a house/home here in Thailand to come back to. In other words they want poroof that you have something to come back to. They do NOT want people showing up in Europe anymore screaming ASYL.....

So see if you can arrange something in Thailand that show that your girlsfriend has something to back to more than just that job..

Good luck

Glegolo

[AsiaCheese]

Unfortunately, it seems as if at the Swiss embassy, there's something like a hidden "daily quota" of visa refusals, as in "grant max 30%". That of course excludes applicants with packet tours, a fat bank book and plans for buying 1-2 Rolex' in Lucerne, Gstaad or Interlaken.

My personal experience, and that of a number of compatriots, is that any visa-seeking Thai lady with status of secretary or less is treated like trash. Granted, there will always be a certain number of ladies applying for a tourist visa in order to go for illegal work -- what else is new. But in my humble opinion, what's happening here is nothing short of bowing to right-wingers and giving in to paranoïd xenophobia. It's simply assuming that anyone from a country with a living standard below that of Switzerland (ooops, that doesn't leave many countries) has a master plan of not wanting to leave again once there, and from then on pilfering the honestly earned (banks et.al) fortunes of the Swiss.

The embassy (at least in theory representing me as a Swiss citizen...) isn't fulfilling its duties properly. I'm all for following and keeping up laws and regulations, but to label anyone not fitting into the Rolex-buyer profile "presumed guilty" on grounds of nationality or even name (such as Mohamed or last names ending on -ic) is going way, way too far.

There will be a Q&A/meet-and-greet event with Ms. Amabassador of Switzerland, in Pattaya in 2 weeks time, and I intend to fire a few questions in that regard. Not that I have any hopes for any changes: a few years ago I was on the phone with the Consular Inspectorate in Switzerland (that's the gov't agency overseeing embassies and consulates) and was told in no uncertain terms that any embassy has the full authority to enact visa regulations in any way they see fit, short of overstepping rules and regulations...

And regarding the "EU/EFTA nationals who have been granted the right to stay in Switzerland are allowed to send for the members of their family in a direct line and for whom they provide maintenance" bit: I've just come off the phone with a friend living in Switzerland. He's married with a Thai wive, and they would like to have her (Thai) daughter from a first marriage to stay with them in Switzerland. The application has been pending for 6 months now, and all he gets to hear when inquiring as to its status is that they're "overloaded with work". How much work can it be to grant permission for something that's already cleared by law, in the canton of Aargau??

[zaq1]

Am I missing something here?

You met on the net a year ago, met in person about 9 months ago for just 3 weeks, etc. Now you are married after another 3 week get together in Thailand. You chat together a lot on the net. Your wife (working in Thailand) is applying (OK, did apply) for a three month tourist visa. Hmm.

Sorry to say that to me it's quite obvious why you have had refusals - and will probably have difficulties in the future too!

I really feel for you being separated from your wife, but your circumstances, looked at from a visa office, are not good. MANY red warning lights flashing there. Can't you see that?

I do hope you resolve this one, but looked at from the Embassy point of view they acted properly.

[AsiaCheese]

...

I do hope you resolve this one, but looked at from the Embassy point of view they acted properly.

Agreed: it could be argued (on a strictly personal level) that "things went a bit quick". But in my opinion, it's NOT an embassy's (nor a Foreign Office's) role to assess a visa application on grounds of moral/traditional/"society standards" issues -- the lady had an invitation and someone who guaranteed for her (we're talking the equivalent of US$ 20,000 in cash he had to show plus taking responsibility for her leaving the country, including coming up with a ticket if so required).

Exactly where is the "line" she/they crossed? And in light of this, should one maybe also consider background-checking tourists with fat bank accounts -- I mean: these people could be criminals and/or tax evaders or something... In this context, it's interesting to note that Switzerland has bilateral visa agreements with a number of Middle and South American countries which allow for reciprocal visa-free entry. And guess what: immigration police and the FO have their hands full with overstayers and people who don't want to leave, from exactly those countries. So they're doing the "logical thing" and clamp down on countries who haven't managed to get bilateral agreements (the 30-day visa on arrival without any need to prove sufficient funds in Thailand is an entirely unilateral thing). The silly thing is just: I have yet to hear of an illegal/overstaying Thai in Switzerland -- and my circle of Thai acquaintances there is quite large...

[glegolo]

Zaq1 - right on the spot.... there is no need to argue about that. Too quick, fast, no history whatsoever.

We are talking about huge red flag here. I mean this is not the very first time in history that a falang guy

come down to Thailand, find his love of his life very quickly and than back home again expecting his

home-country to act and to welcome anybody without checking it up carefully.

I am sorry to say this, but I think it is better to "play the game", see what the problem is and arrange to

fix the problem. Suggestion, apply for a much shorter period of time. like 2-3 weeks. get an invitation

from where you are going to stay or a hotell reservation. Show the embassy that you have a home here in

Thailand to come back to. I think that will be enough.

Possibly you next time can add a couple of weeks on top and apply maybe for 1,5 month or something

and so on. Play by the rules.

Good luck

Glegolo

[nika64]

Thanks for all your repsonses.

So what would have been a better approach?

Am I missing something here?

You met on the net a year ago, met in person about 9 months ago for just 3 weeks, etc. Now you are married after another 3 week get together in Thailand. You chat together a lot on the net. Your wife (working in Thailand) is applying (OK, did apply) for a three month tourist visa. Hmm.

Sorry to say that to me it's quite obvious why you have had refusals - and will probably have difficulties in the future too!

I really feel for you being separated from your wife, but your circumstances, looked at from a visa office, are not good. MANY red warning lights flashing there. Can't you see that?

I do hope you resolve this one, but looked at from the Embassy point of view they acted properly.

[FarangBuddha]

You met on the net a year ago, met in person about 9 months ago for just 3 weeks, etc. Now you are married after another 3 week get together in Thailand. You chat together a lot on the net. Your wife (working in Thailand) is applying (OK, did apply) for a three month tourist visa.

Sorta my take on this situation, and all other similar ones that always crop up with Western guys and Asian ladies. Most of these relationships are doomed to fail; that's why the US military also tries to put the cabosh on these type of liaisons with "local ladies" in order to spare both parties much grief down the road.

[Puccini]

...So what would have been a better approach?

Your girlfriend was truthful with her visa application and this was the right thing to do. The information given to the consulate indicated that the two of you wanted to spend as much time with each other in Switzerland as possible, and that she would have everything paid by you. This led to the obvious conclusion that your girlfriend would have a much better life in Switzerland if she remained after the expiration of her permission to stay than if she returned to Thailand, where she would have to look for a new job and be miserable because of her separation from you.

I don't see what she could have done better. The visa refusal was the result of her personal circumstances. She could demonstrate no compelling reason why she would have to return to Thailand, why she would be worse off and miserable if she did not return. No well-paid job she loved and needed to return to. No ailing parent or other relative for whom she cared and for whose care she had to make alternative arrangements during her absence, at her own expense. No financial restraints that forced her to limit her stay in Switzerland.

[Maestro]

nika64, it took me some time for the search but please tell me which of Switzerland's administrative languages (Italian, German, French) you read and I shall post the links to Switzerland's federal law and regulations regarding the stay of foreigners in the country. Art. 43–45 of the law have information about the permit to stay for the spouse of a foreigner living in Switzerland.

[tombkk]

nika64, it took me some time for the search but please tell me which of Switzerland's administrative languages (Italian, German, French) you read and I shall post the links to Switzerland's federal law and regulations regarding the stay of foreigners in the country. Art. 43–45 of the law have information about the permit to stay for the spouse of a foreigner living in Switzerland.

Why don't you post the links in all three languages here? I think it might be helpfull for others as well.

[VisasPlus]

Thanks for all your repsonses.

So what would have been a better approach?

Am I missing something here?

You met on the net a year ago, met in person about 9 months ago for just 3 weeks, etc. Now you are married after another 3 week get together in Thailand. You chat together a lot on the net. Your wife (working in Thailand) is applying (OK, did apply) for a three month tourist visa. Hmm.

Sorry to say that to me it's quite obvious why you have had refusals - and will probably have difficulties in the future too!

I really feel for you being separated from your wife, but your circumstances, looked at from a visa office, are not good. MANY red warning lights flashing there. Can't you see that?

I do hope you resolve this one, but looked at from the Embassy point of view they acted properly.

nika 64 - for me it's not clear how long you want your wife to stay with you. Is she visiting you or staying with you ?

Edited October 7, 2010 by VisasPlus

[nika64]

nika64, it took me some time for the search but please tell me which of Switzerland's administrative languages (Italian, German, French) you read and I shall post the links to Switzerland's federal law and regulations regarding the stay of foreigners in the country. Art. 43–45 of the law have information about the permit to stay for the spouse of a foreigner living in Switzerland.

German is fine, thanks

[nika64]

Thanks for all your repsonses.

So what would have been a better approach?

Am I missing something here?

You met on the net a year ago, met in person about 9 months ago for just 3 weeks, etc. Now you are married after another 3 week get together in Thailand. You chat together a lot on the net. Your wife (working in Thailand) is applying (OK, did apply) for a three month tourist visa. Hmm.

Sorry to say that to me it's quite obvious why you have had refusals - and will probably have difficulties in the future too!

I really feel for you being separated from your wife, but your circumstances, looked at from a visa office, are not good. MANY red warning lights flashing there. Can't you see that?

I do hope you resolve this one, but looked at from the Embassy point of view they acted properly.

nika 64 - for me it's not clear how long you want your wife to stay with you. Is she visiting you or staying with you ?

She is coming to stay with me so we register our marriage first and apply for a family reunion visa (Visa D) for long stay. She changed her passport, now has my LastName so I hope it can be arranged soon.

Takes about 8 weeks they said.

[Puccini]

German is fine, thanks

http://www.admin.ch/ch/d/sr/1/142.20.de.pdf

http://www.admin.ch/ch/d/sr/1/142.201.de.pdf

http://www.admin.ch/ch/d/sr/1/142.203.de.pdf