Never Wai A Waitress

[TAWP]

First of all, we need to separate when a wai was being initiated by the clueless tourist and when it was merely returned. That is a huge difference.

Is it alright to wai service people back? Well, 'kinda', you should never perform an equal high or elaborate wai, a simple 'basic low wai' [not above your chin, don't cover your face in any way] is enough - if you for some reason don't think a simple nod is enough.

It is NOT the proper form to INITIATE a wai to service people of lower status than you - which due to work vs customer relations means all waiters, waitresses, bar girls etc you come across.

You might think you are being polite, but by behaving culturally incorrect you are just upsetting those of equal or higher status than yourself, which isn't smart. Especially if you are out on a business dinner.

[makescents]

Inferior, lower order?

Ugh...Thailand's class system.

[Forethat]

Here we go again, another "don’t do this and don’t do that, you'll look like a <deleted>"-thread not seldom written in a supercilious tone. Give it another hour and someone will begin genital measurements verbally, probably by referring to the number of years he/she has lived in LOS.

[britmaveric]

Actually Wai is more about age/respect..... Hence always wai a person older than you!

[Soutpeel]

probably by referring to the number of years he/she has lived in LOS.

Believe we had a few of these a couple of pages ago... ......but I dont beleive we have had a "you have to embrace the culture, or you just dont understand Thai culture" as of yet.....maybe one of the pseudo-thai's or Thai apologists can help us out in this regard...:jap: (woops not suppose to do that, as you havent told me your age or status yet, you could be a lower class !!!.... )

[bonobo]

Who really cares if some other foreigner thinks you look "silly" for wai'ing someone supposedly "inferior?"

In my experience, foreigners are given quite a bit of leeway when is comes to culture, especially when they are attempting to be polite or do something which is considered culturally Thai.

My three best Thai friends are what most people would consider to be hi-so.  I often see them wai'ing "inferiors" first, although usually to older people.  But they pretty much always acknowledge a wai they receive in some way or the other.

And when a small child is introduced to me, and his or her parents need to remind him or her to wai, I always take the time to return it, and this seems to go over well with the parents.

I am not much for "superior" and "inferior."  (As a Marine officer, I never let my subordinates refer to me as their "superior officer," but rather their "senior officer.")  But from a Thai perspective, it is perfectly OK to wai an "inferior."  The key is that your hands are held together in front of your chest rather than in front of your face, and your bow is shallower as well, sometimes only a slight nod.

[tombkk]

So simple and yet so complicated ...

How do you know if someone is of a "low order" ?

My employees "wai" me but I "wai" the father of our maid who is much older than me and not my employee. I don't know if it's correct but it's the way I feel it.

Luckily we are not Thais and our mistakes are easily forgiven ...

But as least a clear rule is if someone "wais" you, it's basic politeness to return the wai.

It's actually very easy, age is not the overriding cosideration in most cases, a maids father has no status in your household (unless you are shagging her, in which case he might be entitled to a wai)

As a wealthy and educated white person, I take the position, every Thai is of lower order (unless, MIL, an important monk or royal family). I do pretty much the same as a wealthy Thai.

Well, this last sentence of yours has stirred up some discussions. I certainly see my situation (or position, or rank, whichever word you prefer) in Thai society differently. I consider myself on the same level as Thai people with my education and wealth, and I am happy when they treat me that way too. Incidentally, if you think you are higher than all Thai persons (with few exceptions), then actually, they will think the same but reversed. It's a mirror. They may be polite to you, but there is stuff going on behind the face.

When my friends introduce to me new people of their circles, they often add "he may be a farang, but he really is like us". This makes the new people relax, but it will still take a while before they actually accept me on their level.

[tombkk]

Inferior, lower order?

Ugh...Thailand's class system.

Yes.

1. Check out the Power Distance Index (PDI) of Thailand at http://www.geert-hofstede.com/

2. Compare it to your home country.

3. Accept that national cultures are different.

[tombkk]

Only those who refer to themselves as "Khun" followed by their name have to wai everybody. These people are more commonly know as tossers or "right <deleted>".

Quote of the day me thinks, but would suggest in addtion to the Khun t's, we should make everyone who calls themselves "ajarn" wai everyone as well

Many of the Thai professors at my university call themselves ajarn, using the word "ajarn" as meaning "I".

No, haven't heard anybody say "My name is Ajarn Somchai". They say "My name is Somchai" and you are supposed to know to address him as ajarn. Come to think of it, I have never heard a Thai person saying "My name is Khun Somchai" either.

[Ulysses G.]

When my friends introduce to me new people of their circles, they often add "he may be a farang, but he really is like us". This makes the new people relax, but it will still take a while before they actually accept me on their level.

I bet that you don't refer to yourself as "Khun".

[britmaveric]

Dunno - always say "Khun Brit" to me or is it "Khun Darkling"? Same Same but different....

[tombkk]

Day to day, if you're unsure, best to not do it and stick with da nod with a smile.

That's how I understand politeness; the nod with a smile. In the moobaan we don't wai much among thai residents and I; only once when I come back from Europe after 2 months away. Then we stick with the usual "sawasdee krap", the nod and a smile. I think a friendly and respectful attitude is the best way to be welcomed here.

Yes, the same holds true in my mooban. A visitor who doesn't live here will wai when he comes. There is one girl who wais toi me every time she sees me (which is every one or weeks as it happens)/

In my office, one staff wais to me every morning when I come and every evening when he leaves. Everybody else just acknowledges my arriving by nodding or so.

[tombkk]

While a Thai customer in a bar or restaurant might wai back to the waiter (he can also nod instead, depending on the perceived difference in social status), they would not initiate it, i.e. not wai to the waiter first. However, it a foreigner does it, they will consider it polite, as he is trying to adapt. I see nothing wrong with that, and always recommend to err on the polite side.

This thread is turning into extracts from Lonely Planet.....

Cue all the pseudo-Thai's...

I did a cross cultural managment course many years and this partiular question came up of wai's - the answer, farangs are not expected to do it, it doesnt score you any brownie points or make you more at one with your "Thainess".....an acknowlegement ie nod your head is all that is required in 99 % of the cases..

Yes, you are right that it sounds a bit like Lonely Planet. I think the questions in this thread are basic.

I also did a Cross-Cultural Management course. In fact, I "do" one every year at my university as lecturer. I agree that an acknowledgement of the wai is required (it would be impolite otherwise, like not taking an outstretched hand), and yes, a nod is sufficient for Westerners in most situations (like when they are the tourist or the rich expat who shows basic knowledge of the culture).

However, this thread is going much deeper by now, and I hope to have shared some further insight.

[bangkockney]

So simple and yet so complicated ...

How do you know if someone is of a "low order" ?

My employees "wai" me but I "wai" the father of our maid who is much older than me and not my employee. I don't know if it's correct but it's the way I feel it.

Luckily we are not Thais and our mistakes are easily forgiven ...

But as least a clear rule is if someone "wais" you, it's basic politeness to return the wai.

It's actually very easy, age is not the overriding cosideration in most cases, a maids father has no status in your household (unless you are shagging her, in which case he might be entitled to a wai)

As a wealthy and educated white person, I take the position, every Thai is of lower order (unless, MIL, an important monk or royal family). I do pretty much the same as a wealthy Thai.

Any monk is of higher order relative to you (as you put it), so you should have respect for all of them, not just the important ones.

Please also tell me how you know who is a Royal? So you could meet someone for the first time, ignore their wai and only change your attitude once you learn their position? Great first impression you'd be making.

[tombkk]

When my friends introduce to me new people of their circles, they often add "he may be a farang, but he really is like us". This makes the new people relax, but it will still take a while before they actually accept me on their level.

I bet that you don't refer to yourself as "Khun".

Actually, you are right: I don't. ;-)

Some address me as "Khun" nevertheless, other as "Pee", and yet others just use my first name.

Youngish people sometimes address me as "Loong", but that makes me feel old. I guess I have to live with that! As Westerners, we think that being addressed as an old person (Loong - older brother of the father) makes us feel, well not so young any more, but in Thai, it is actually is higher form of respect. These young people also wai to me when they see me, which I acknowledge appropriately (and with joy).

[tombkk]

In my office, one staff wais to me every morning when I come and every evening when he leaves. Everybody else just acknowledges my arriving by nodding or so.

Think you must read between the lines with the staff. Think you can cut down on the Christmas card list.

LOL!

[Pikey]

Who the **** cares? Surely you have enough nouse about you to know when someone is genuine or taking the piss? Thais are just like everyone else but you need to learn the subtleties.

I'm no expert but at least have half a clue. Big man/powerful dude that can influence what you want = high wai. Small man - let them do it first and wai them slightly lower than they wai'd you if you think you are better than them. Service staff - I low wai them if they wai me and I know them. If not. just a nod of polite acknowledgement.

Cheers,

Pikey.

[mca]

And when a small child is introduced to me, and his or her parents need to remind him or her to wai, I always take the time to return it, and this seems to go over well with the parents.

Thanks for some validation. God I've been shot down by so many Thai " experts " over this. The same as when I sometimes use " Kha " when talking to a little girl.

[lovelomsak]

Wai-ing has always been a mystery to me. That is, when, and to whom, it should, and should not, be done. Talking about restaurants, only yesterday I was in a Thai restaurant that is rarely frequented by foreigners, and the Thai customers wai-ed the waiter when he wai-ed them as they were leaving. There never seems to be any hard and fast rule about this cultural phenomenon. I suppose it is the same for us when we shake hands: that is, we know when to shake hands, but just try explaining when it should, and should not, be done to someone from a culture where it is unheard of.

The hard and fast rule is, you never wai an inferior first.

If someone of a low order wais you, you should return it.

.......... it's not brain surgery.

It's not about who you do it to, it's about who does it first.

You are right about who ways first is the important. But the inferior part you might need to adjust just a little. A young rich man may wai a poor old woman he sees in the market who cared for him in his childhood. He sees no problem with it he isnot superior to her he respects her, people in the market may see her as an old woman who is inferior by class but he doesnot for she cared for him and gets his respect. So I feel inferior is not the proper word . Youth respects old so they wai. Employees respect employer so they wai. My friends seem to compete to be the first to wai among themselves so as to be humble.Being the first is very important for it shows humble respect for the other.As one poster put also do it when it feels right. At a business meeting when people wai is the first one to wai inferior?

[tombkk]

Who the fuc_k cares? Surely you have enough nouse about you to know when someone is genuine or taking the piss? Thais are just like everyone else but you need to learn the subtleties.

I'm no expert but at least have half a clue. Big man/powerful dude that can influence what you want = high wai. Small man - let them do it first and wai them slightly lower than they wai'd you if you think you are better than them. Service staff - I low wai them if they wai me and I know them. If not. just a nod of polite acknowledgement.

Cheers,

Pikey.

I am not entirely sure what you want to say in your first paragraph. Of course, everybody who is interested in living here (and therefore needing to learn about Thai culture) cares. But then, on the other hand, I agree that you have to learn the subtleties.

Your second paragraph does show some insight, so I wager that you do care and have more than "half a clue".

[sillyman99]

I'd love to see some **** comment on some guy 65 years old to his face, in 20 years in Thailand, I've never seen it yet.

[TAWP]

I'd love to see some **** comment on some guy 65 years old to his face, in 20 years in Thailand, I've never seen it yet.

Want to rephrase that in English?

[saraburioz]

IMHO the Thais who acknowledge a wai from an " inferior " ( heavy use of inverted commas there) have simply been raised to be extremely polite. The same as in a restaurant I always say " thank you " when the staff bring me something. It's how I was brought up.

It's not exactly rocket science.

Another normal post.

Again, totally agree.

Maybe the OP wasn't clear - old guy - 60ish, young waitress - 17 maybe

Guy walks into the place and wais her first.

This goes against ALL the rules - If you do it, you should stop unless you don't mind everyone having a laugh at your expense

[Beetlejuice]

Some time ago I was having a meal with my son at a small restaurant in Chiang Mai.

Seated behind me was this big fat bald old farang. The waitress approached him and the smartass farang attempted to order his meal speaking Thai.

He asked for various things and tried to order some pork. He said; moo, Thai for pork, but in a loud booming long tone which sounded like a cow; MOOOOO. Suddenly I went into side splitting laughter and began choking on my food, but survived to tell the tale.

This is something I'll never forget, hilarious and sorry for changing the topic slightly.

Edited October 9, 2010 by Beetlejuice

[JRinger]

So simple and yet so complicated ...

How do you know if someone is of a "low order" ?

My employees "wai" me but I "wai" the father of our maid who is much older than me and not my employee. I don't know if it's correct but it's the way I feel it.

Luckily we are not Thais and our mistakes are easily forgiven ...

But as least a clear rule is if someone "wais" you, it's basic politeness to return the wai.

It's actually very easy, age is not the overriding cosideration in most cases, a maids father has no status in your household (unless you are shagging her, in which case he might be entitled to a wai)

As a wealthy and educated white person, I take the position, every Thai is of lower order (unless, MIL, an important monk or royal family). I do pretty much the same as a wealthy Thai.

mr.sarahsbloke, I honestly think you should get a full and immediate refund for all your educational expenses.

[tombkk]

Thai's look very gracious when they wai.

When Farangs wai, they remind me of performing seals clapping their paws/flippers together

Farangs shouldn't wai, it just doesn't become them

Farangs should be taught how to wai properly!

Edited October 10, 2010 by tombkk

[canuckamuck]

I was at Korean BBQ the other night and a mixed group of Thai and westerners had finished their meal and one farang went and paid the bill. When he got the change back he wai'd the waitress. The whole place went quiet; I heard something drop behind the bar. Then one of the staff grabbed the guys arms from behind and another guy sucker punched him. Then they dragged him out on the street and a bunch of Thai guys were shouting at him and kicking at him. A policeman broke it up and lifted the guys head of the ground and said "what you name". The foreigner spit out some blood and said "Kuhn Bill krap pohm".

The police then pulled out his gun and shot him in the head. Everyone else went back to eating.

You've been warned, get the wai right!

[capKnuckle]

I walked into a pub yesterday, and all the staff gave me a wai and I did the same back. Felt a little stupid for doing it but I know all the staff coz they used to work for me and I would feel un-polite had I not.

The other customers must of thought I was a <deleted>!!!

id bet a million baht the others customers did not care one bit whether you waid or didnt wai.

[craigt3365]

Wai-ing has always been a mystery to me. That is, when, and to whom, it should, and should not, be done. Talking about restaurants, only yesterday I was in a Thai restaurant that is rarely frequented by foreigners, and the Thai customers wai-ed the waiter when he wai-ed them as they were leaving. There never seems to be any hard and fast rule about this cultural phenomenon. I suppose it is the same for us when we shake hands: that is, we know when to shake hands, but just try explaining when it should, and should not, be done to someone from a culture where it is unheard of.

The hard and fast rule is, you never wai an inferior first.

If someone of a low order wais you, you should return it.

.......... it's not brain surgery.

It's not about who you do it to, it's about who does it first.

Right on...and old folks always get a wai! As does the local police general!!!!

[Ulysses G.]

I was at Korean BBQ the other night and a mixed group of Thai and westerners had finished their meal and one farang went and paid the bill. When he got the change back he wai'd the waitress. The whole place went quiet; I heard something drop behind the bar. Then one of the staff grabbed the guys arms from behind and another guy sucker punched him. Then they dragged him out on the street and a bunch of Thai guys were shouting at him and kicking at him. A policeman broke it up and lifted the guys head of the ground and said "what you name". The foreigner spit out some blood and said "Kuhn Bill krap pohm".

The police then pulled out his gun and shot him in the head. Everyone else went back to eating.

You've been warned, get the wai right!

There is justice in the world after all.