Architect

[Gonsalviz]

I live about 100 Km west of Udon Thani and I want to build a house there. I have a floor plan that I would like to stick to but I need a company to draw a plan to my specs that Thai construction people can understand.

Does anyone have a recommendation?:jap:

[evanson]

Yeah. Search Yellow Pages for a jobbing draftsman in somewhere like Oz (cheaper than uk/usa). No other architect here will touch it (not 'their design') and without the drawings the builder will make a pig's ear of it.

Another suggestion is to get a hold of the many 3D Renderers on the net to show what the floor plan would/should look like once it's up. You'll still need the drawings though.Which will then have to be passed on to a Thai construction engineer for submission to your local OrBorJor.

Edited October 9, 2010 by evanson

[bbradsby]

Just PM'd you, but to the larger community if you are in need of drawings or construction management for your project, let me know.

[Tomissan]

You may want to inquire at; www.thai-land-house.com

[Gonsalviz]

You may want to inquire at; www.thai-land-house.com

I have been waiting on a reply from them.

[bankruatsteve]

In my experience, you will be wasting your time with an architect unless he will also supervise the construction. If your main requirement is the floor plan, you just need a decent builder (but good luck on that) or the wherewithall to supervise construction yourself. Having just gone through the DYI with pretty good result I can tell you it is definitely a challange and work to keep on top of things, but you will save at least 50% of what the so called "builders" will screw up anyway.

[Gonsalviz]

In my experience, you will be wasting your time with an architect unless he will also supervise the construction. If your main requirement is the floor plan, you just need a decent builder (but good luck on that) or the wherewithall to supervise construction yourself. Having just gone through the DYI with pretty good result I can tell you it is definitely a challange and work to keep on top of things, but you will save at least 50% of what the so called "builders" will screw up anyway.

This I do not doubt. i am still working on which way i want to go.

Thanks for the input.

[excaliber]

In my experience, you will be wasting your time with an architect unless he will also supervise the construction. If your main requirement is the floor plan, you just need a decent builder (but good luck on that) or the wherewithall to supervise construction yourself. Having just gone through the DYI with pretty good result I can tell you it is definitely a challange and work to keep on top of things, but you will save at least 50% of what the so called "builders" will screw up anyway.

Are you saying that your house cost less than 50% of what a builder quoted you? If so, that's pretty remarkable.

Also, it would be very difficult to find any architect who can or will supervise a project. There are Project Managers who oversee the entire project but aren't on site all the time and then there are 'supervisors' who do spend their time on site.

In addition, there are very few builders who can prepare detailed drawings and a structural engineer is required to prepare the structural drawings and sign them. Yes you can build in some areas without approval although later on you may be asked for 'certified drawings' and if you don't have them you may end up paying a lot more to the land office/tessaban/Orborta, etc., to prepare and sign them although a bit difficult to verify once the house is up and the foundation and structure are covered over. If you don't have detailed drawings and trust the builder to build your house to above average standards you may be in for a very big and costly surprise. Architectural drawings and structural plans are certainly cheaper here than in the west but I've seen too many expats wanting to build multi-million baht homes and reluctant to spend a reasonable fee for accurate and detailed plans.

In addition, many projects won't warrant a full-time supervisor due the size and budget. Most, if not all builders will follow the plans as it should be. When and if there's a problem or difference of opinion or "that's not what we agreed", then the plans are what determines the bottom line. Unless you're building a very small house, bungalow, etc., it's best to have detailed plans including detailed structural plans, roof structure plans, foundation, etc., as well as a detailed BoQ to help eliminate any "mis-understandings". Many expats think that if something goes wrong a lawyer will sort things out.

Well, good luck with a lawyer. In my experience you'll be spending a lot of money and waiting a very long time before it ever reaches the court if it does at all. I've know many Thai's who've been ripped off and most of them just let it go since they know it's pretty much a waste of time even thinking the courts will sort it out.

Do your homework, read all you can from people who have experienced building here before you start. There are many expats with years of experience who can help and advise and just as there are reputable builders there are honest and reliable expats.

Unlike the west where there are government inspectors, you're at the mercy of the builder to build your house to acceptable standards so you won't be spending the rest of your retirement years repairing shoddy work.

[bankruatsteve]

In my experience, you will be wasting your time with an architect unless he will also supervise the construction. If your main requirement is the floor plan, you just need a decent builder (but good luck on that) or the wherewithall to supervise construction yourself. Having just gone through the DYI with pretty good result I can tell you it is definitely a challange and work to keep on top of things, but you will save at least 50% of what the so called "builders" will screw up anyway.

Are you saying that your house cost less than 50% of what a builder quoted you? If so, that's pretty remarkable.

Also, it would be very difficult to find any architect who can or will supervise a project. There are Project Managers who oversee the entire project but aren't on site all the time and then there are 'supervisors' who do spend their time on site.

In addition, there are very few builders who can prepare detailed drawings and a structural engineer is required to prepare the structural drawings and sign them. Yes you can build in some areas without approval although later on you may be asked for 'certified drawings' and if you don't have them you may end up paying a lot more to the land office/tessaban/Orborta, etc., to prepare and sign them although a bit difficult to verify once the house is up and the foundation and structure are covered over. If you don't have detailed drawings and trust the builder to build your house to above average standards you may be in for a very big and costly surprise. Architectural drawings and structural plans are certainly cheaper here than in the west but I've seen too many expats wanting to build multi-million baht homes and reluctant to spend a reasonable fee for accurate and detailed plans.

In addition, many projects won't warrant a full-time supervisor due the size and budget. Most, if not all builders will follow the plans as it should be. When and if there's a problem or difference of opinion or "that's not what we agreed", then the plans are what determines the bottom line. Unless you're building a very small house, bungalow, etc., it's best to have detailed plans including detailed structural plans, roof structure plans, foundation, etc., as well as a detailed BoQ to help eliminate any "mis-understandings". Many expats think that if something goes wrong a lawyer will sort things out.

Well, good luck with a lawyer. In my experience you'll be spending a lot of money and waiting a very long time before it ever reaches the court if it does at all. I've know many Thai's who've been ripped off and most of them just let it go since they know it's pretty much a waste of time even thinking the courts will sort it out.

Do your homework, read all you can from people who have experienced building here before you start. There are many expats with years of experience who can help and advise and just as there are reputable builders there are honest and reliable expats.

Unlike the west where there are government inspectors, you're at the mercy of the builder to build your house to acceptable standards so you won't be spending the rest of your retirement years repairing shoddy work.

Not sure if you addressing to me? But, since you took my post I will respond.

Yes - I just completed a 7x10m inside with another two 3-1/2 x 7m outside (for cooking area and whatever). That's 2 level - 2 BR plus LOTS of space up and 1 master BR down with a nice living area and western style kitchen. This is on a "pole style" structure desiqn but that's the only thing people understand around here. When I originally asked 3 "builders" with a scetch design - they rolled their eyes and came up with 2-3m baht and that was just based on the dimensions - they didn't even talk about finishing etc. So, we basically ended up supervising labor ourselves and, to make a long horror story short - we came in under 1.1m baht and it's a really nice house. So, YES I did build a LOT less than a builder quoted.

I have, in the past, also built a much more expensive house using an architect who supervised the construction. That went VERY well. There are architechts who really are and people that play with planning software. If you want to do it right, get a good architect and who will supervise the project.

I will add that builders (here or anywhere) do NOT follow the plans that are not theirs - which may be good/bad depending on the builder.

The basic thing for anybody wanting to build with a bulder or DYI is, as you say, to do your homework and the more you can take on yourself, the more you will SAVE.

Cheers

[excaliber]

In my experience, you will be wasting your time with an architect unless he will also supervise the construction. If your main requirement is the floor plan, you just need a decent builder (but good luck on that) or the wherewithall to supervise construction yourself. Having just gone through the DYI with pretty good result I can tell you it is definitely a challange and work to keep on top of things, but you will save at least 50% of what the so called "builders" will screw up anyway.

Are you saying that your house cost less than 50% of what a builder quoted you? If so, that's pretty remarkable.

Also, it would be very difficult to find any architect who can or will supervise a project. There are Project Managers who oversee the entire project but aren't on site all the time and then there are 'supervisors' who do spend their time on site.

In addition, there are very few builders who can prepare detailed drawings and a structural engineer is required to prepare the structural drawings and sign them. Yes you can build in some areas without approval although later on you may be asked for 'certified drawings' and if you don't have them you may end up paying a lot more to the land office/tessaban/Orborta, etc., to prepare and sign them although a bit difficult to verify once the house is up and the foundation and structure are covered over. If you don't have detailed drawings and trust the builder to build your house to above average standards you may be in for a very big and costly surprise. Architectural drawings and structural plans are certainly cheaper here than in the west but I've seen too many expats wanting to build multi-million baht homes and reluctant to spend a reasonable fee for accurate and detailed plans.

In addition, many projects won't warrant a full-time supervisor due the size and budget. Most, if not all builders will follow the plans as it should be. When and if there's a problem or difference of opinion or "that's not what we agreed", then the plans are what determines the bottom line. Unless you're building a very small house, bungalow, etc., it's best to have detailed plans including detailed structural plans, roof structure plans, foundation, etc., as well as a detailed BoQ to help eliminate any "mis-understandings". Many expats think that if something goes wrong a lawyer will sort things out.

Well, good luck with a lawyer. In my experience you'll be spending a lot of money and waiting a very long time before it ever reaches the court if it does at all. I've know many Thai's who've been ripped off and most of them just let it go since they know it's pretty much a waste of time even thinking the courts will sort it out.

Do your homework, read all you can from people who have experienced building here before you start. There are many expats with years of experience who can help and advise and just as there are reputable builders there are honest and reliable expats.

Unlike the west where there are government inspectors, you're at the mercy of the builder to build your house to acceptable standards so you won't be spending the rest of your retirement years repairing shoddy work.

Not sure if you addressing to me? But, since you took my post I will respond.

Yes - I just completed a 7x10m inside with another two 3-1/2 x 7m outside (for cooking area and whatever). That's 2 level - 2 BR plus LOTS of space up and 1 master BR down with a nice living area and western style kitchen. This is on a "pole style" structure desiqn but that's the only thing people understand around here. When I originally asked 3 "builders" with a scetch design - they rolled their eyes and came up with 2-3m baht and that was just based on the dimensions - they didn't even talk about finishing etc. So, we basically ended up supervising labor ourselves and, to make a long horror story short - we came in under 1.1m baht and it's a really nice house. So, YES I did build a LOT less than a builder quoted.

I have, in the past, also built a much more expensive house using an architect who supervised the construction. That went VERY well. There are architechts who really are and people that play with planning software. If you want to do it right, get a good architect and who will supervise the project.

I will add that builders (here or anywhere) do NOT follow the plans that are not theirs - which may be good/bad depending on the builder.

The basic thing for anybody wanting to build with a bulder or DYI is, as you say, to do your homework and the more you can take on yourself, the more you will SAVE.

Cheers

Yes I was responding to your post and no, I did not "take your post", I believe the OP is Gonsalviz and you were responding to his 'post'.

I will have to disagree on the statement you made about builder's not following the plans. Maybe this has been your experience although in more than 20 years of managing construction projects of all sizes here in the Kingdom, it's not only mandatory but crucial that the builder follows the plans and details. If it wasn't then projects would really be a mess. In addition, not everyone has the time and/or experience to supervise their own house construction and not speaking the language will also confuse things.

When you built your house, did you climb up the ladder of the ready-mix truck to see if the concrete was too wet or allow them to add as much water to the mix as they wanted? 'more water equals less strength in the concrete' and the cracks that develop over time are a good sign.

Did you make sure the steel or wire mesh wasn't sitting on the ground when they poured the concrete? and also make sure they didn't use too much water in the rendering? and inspect the welding of the steel roof structure and made sure they cleaned the grease and residue from the steel before painting it? The list goes on and on and if you didn't monitor a list of activities then you more than likely to have problems later on that can be very costly. If you get major cracks in wall due to a faulty foundation it's pretty difficult trying to repair it.

An Architect is an Architect and not a builder. Over the years I've worked with many other Architects who couldn't successfully supervise the construction of a dog house. Sure they may get on a job and play the part but they are usually under the thumb of the builder and won't interfere if the builder decides to cut corners.

Although it may be true that one can save money by "taking on as much as you can", providing you have some building experience, local and western, can communicate in the Thai and or Lao/Isaan and have knowledge of local building materials. I know of many expats who have successfully built houses here without a contractor by hiring labor and buying all the materials although all of them, without exception would not want to do it again. There are exceptions (you) but very few (in my opinion). If things go wrong, and they usually do, there's not much recourse and without a good set of detailed plans you're spending a lot of time 'trying' to explain what you want and it can be a nightmare.

You can read through the many horror stories throughout this forum and others of expats paying too much for too little and end up replacing, repairing or living with the problems long after the builder has gone.

I understand now how you saved over 50% of what a few builders quoted you in the beginning from "a sketch". You can't expect anyone to give an accurate bid from a sketch. Most builders will quote a price based on the overall living area including decks, verandas, etc., even if you try and explain that the covered deck doesn't have any walls or windows, etc., etc.

Don't get me wrong, I certainly encourage anyone who wants to save money to DIY, but only if you have enough knowledge and time to do so.

One thing that always tickles me is when someone plans to build a multi-million baht house and doesn't want to pay for a good set of plans and details. When it comes down to the wire (legal or otherwise) the builder will fall back on the plans regardless of what was verbally agreed on (unless of course you have witnesses & recordings of those conversations).

Start with a good set of plans that both you and the builder understand. Building from a sketch is only inviting problems and mis-understandings.....

I would certainly like to see some photos of your DIY house build including the interior finishes, to sort of back up your claims and possibly help others since it appears that's what your intention is.

Edited October 17, 2010 by excaliber

[bankruatsteve]

OK – here's a couple photos. It's still work in progress for some of the finishing though:

And just to clarify some things:

The OP stated that he lives in Udon Thani province (which is where I am at the moment although on opposite sides of the city) so I was relating to what he might expect around here. And, along with some rendering sketches, I also had floor plan using some free download software (pretty basic but gave a good idea of what we wanted). We went to two builders in Udon city both of which just hauled out their stock plans and which one did we like. They did not seem at all interested in building something otherwise. So, we ended up talking to 4 local "builders". All were interested but would only quote based on overall dimensions even though I offered to pay for a design plan and detail material estimate. One guy did make a stab at a design using some software but it was a wooden structure on stilts and barely resembling what we showed him (and a "quote" of 3-4m). So, we ended up going with a guy that said he understood what we wanted (but also would not or could not put anything on paper) so we agreed to a phase approach paying him for labor and we bought the materials. The footings went pretty well so we went on to the 1^st floor foundation and the problems started (they were ready to pour cement until I asked where was the plumbing) Anyway... to make a long story short we fired that guy and the next one. The labor we hired turned out to be pretty good at their respective craft (although a couple were really lazy) and just needed to be told what to do and where to do it along with a LOT of supervision in case they took it on themselves to be "clever" or trying to cover up screwups instead of fixing or re-doing.

Back to architects... with your experience it seems strange you would say architects are not builders. In my two personal experiences using an architect (here and in the states), his company was the builder and supervised the construction folks he employs (although not full time). In both cases, the end result was very good and well worth the extra cost. When it's the other way around, I doubt you get the same quality product. And my observation is that most major projects are done by architectural firms versus Ajax Construction. After all, architects have educational, apprenticeship, and licensing requirements whereas I don't know of any similar requirements to be a "builder".

[Gonsalviz]

OK – here's a couple photos. It's still work in progress for some of the finishing though:

And just to clarify some things:

The OP stated that he lives in Udon Thani province (which is where I am at the moment although on opposite sides of the city) so I was relating to what he might expect around here. And, along with some rendering sketches, I also had floor plan using some free download software (pretty basic but gave a good idea of what we wanted). We went to two builders in Udon city both of which just hauled out their stock plans and which one did we like. They did not seem at all interested in building something otherwise. So, we ended up talking to 4 local "builders". All were interested but would only quote based on overall dimensions even though I offered to pay for a design plan and detail material estimate. One guy did make a stab at a design using some software but it was a wooden structure on stilts and barely resembling what we showed him (and a "quote" of 3-4m). So, we ended up going with a guy that said he understood what we wanted (but also would not or could not put anything on paper) so we agreed to a phase approach paying him for labor and we bought the materials. The footings went pretty well so we went on to the 1^st floor foundation and the problems started (they were ready to pour cement until I asked where was the plumbing) Anyway... to make a long story short we fired that guy and the next one. The labor we hired turned out to be pretty good at their respective craft (although a couple were really lazy) and just needed to be told what to do and where to do it along with a LOT of supervision in case they took it on themselves to be "clever" or trying to cover up screwups instead of fixing or re-doing.

Back to architects... with your experience it seems strange you would say architects are not builders. In my two personal experiences using an architect (here and in the states), his company was the builder and supervised the construction folks he employs (although not full time). In both cases, the end result was very good and well worth the extra cost. When it's the other way around, I doubt you get the same quality product. And my observation is that most major projects are done by architectural firms versus Ajax Construction. After all, architects have educational, apprenticeship, and licensing requirements whereas I don't know of any similar requirements to be a "builder".

Just to be clear, Nong Bua Lamphu is it's own province and I am at the west side of that near the Loei border.

[excaliber]

OK – here's a couple photos. It's still work in progress for some of the finishing though:

And just to clarify some things:

The OP stated that he lives in Udon Thani province (which is where I am at the moment although on opposite sides of the city) so I was relating to what he might expect around here. And, along with some rendering sketches, I also had floor plan using some free download software (pretty basic but gave a good idea of what we wanted). We went to two builders in Udon city both of which just hauled out their stock plans and which one did we like. They did not seem at all interested in building something otherwise. So, we ended up talking to 4 local "builders". All were interested but would only quote based on overall dimensions even though I offered to pay for a design plan and detail material estimate. One guy did make a stab at a design using some software but it was a wooden structure on stilts and barely resembling what we showed him (and a "quote" of 3-4m). So, we ended up going with a guy that said he understood what we wanted (but also would not or could not put anything on paper) so we agreed to a phase approach paying him for labor and we bought the materials. The footings went pretty well so we went on to the 1^st floor foundation and the problems started (they were ready to pour cement until I asked where was the plumbing) Anyway... to make a long story short we fired that guy and the next one. The labor we hired turned out to be pretty good at their respective craft (although a couple were really lazy) and just needed to be told what to do and where to do it along with a LOT of supervision in case they took it on themselves to be "clever" or trying to cover up screwups instead of fixing or re-doing.

Back to architects... with your experience it seems strange you would say architects are not builders. In my two personal experiences using an architect (here and in the states), his company was the builder and supervised the construction folks he employs (although not full time). In both cases, the end result was very good and well worth the extra cost. When it's the other way around, I doubt you get the same quality product. And my observation is that most major projects are done by architectural firms versus Ajax Construction. After all, architects have educational, apprenticeship, and licensing requirements whereas I don't know of any similar requirements to be a "builder".

Just to be clear, Nong Bua Lamphu is it's own province and I am at the west side of that near the Loei border.

Taking the time to respond in detail to your limited experience & observation would only be a waste of time since you think Architects are Builders and do a better job of supervising the construction then a builder. What I can say is after 20 years as an Architect/Project Manager and 20 years as a General Contractor in the states, an obvious, better qualified supervisor would be someone with actual, hands-on experience rather than someone with none. You mention both the states and here with two projects being the extent of your experience. In the states, you won't find many Architects supervising private home construction, if any at all. it's not their job and in most cases a supervisor isn't needed since the government supplies inspectors to make sure the Builder is building to code and won't allow the builder to continue before signing off. He will make sure everything is correct before allowing the builder to pour concrete, cover over plumbing, electrical, etc., unlike here where you need an experienced builder to supervise or yourself if you have some knowledge and experience of building techniques and proper use of materials. Large commercial & industrial projects are a different story. Since 1988 I've worked on factories, banks, resorts, hotels, private housing, etc.,throughout the Kingdom and never once was there an Architect supervisor on any project who didn't have actual building experience. You may be right about one thing though, most builders in Thailand don't have degrees or licenses to build.

One more item that I noticed in your above response was that if you weren't there, on-site, all or most of the time the project would have been a disaster and a good builder with qualified workers won't need a supervisor/babysitter if he has a decent set of drawings. Here in Thailand they're only needed if you hire village workers or hands with limited experience. and one more small thing; over the years I come back to TV to try and give advice based on my experience and there has always been resistance from someone such as yourself who always knows better....this is true not only on this forum but every other one in Thailand...but since it's pouring down rain and due to the economic situations around the world, work is slower than usual so I have more time but as usual, I'll spend my time doing something else since 99% people who do ask for help and/or advice never respond with a thanks anyway.

Edited October 18, 2010 by excaliber

[JRinger]

Gonsalviz,

any luck finding an Architect or someone to draw up your plans?

[Gonsalviz]

Gonsalviz,

any luck finding an Architect or someone to draw up your plans?

I have a couple. Waiting to see the delivery.

[sirineou]

there is a good website, www.coothaihouse dedicated to expats building in Thailand, in the forum there is a section on building in Issan, I think you will get some good answers there.