Outcome Of Thai Democrats' Legal Drama Still Uncertain

[phiphidon]

for the benefit of all.

from Bucholz (see, I still haven't got the hang of it)

Mea Culpa, perhaps its just me but it would be handy if the reply option was a bit more user friendly. As for the two news items, I must have picked that habit up from the Nation where they tend to lead with one story and then tack on another (usually with the precursor of "Meanwhile......." ) if it suits the angle they are trying to spin the story at.

Meanwhile, back to the story. There are actually 5 videos. A very brief analysis of what the videos are showing can be found here;

http://asiancorrespo...ed-videos-about

[Thai at Heart]

for the benefit of all.

from Bucholz (see, I still haven't got the hang of it)

Mea Culpa, perhaps its just me but it would be handy if the reply option was a bit more user friendly. As for the two news items, I must have picked that habit up from the Nation where they tend to lead with one story and then tack on another (usually with the precursor of "Meanwhile......." ) if it suits the angle they are trying to spin the story at.

Meanwhile, back to the story. There are actually 5 videos. A very brief analysis of what the videos are showing can be found here;

http://asiancorrespo...ed-videos-about

Nice to see this in the captions in the link:

Video 2:

Caption for Second Video from YouTube:

วิรัช ร่มเย็น สส. ระนอง ในฐานะตัวแทน ฝ่ายกฎหมายพรรคประชาธิปปัตย์นัดพบเลขาประธ านตุลาการรัฐธรรมนูญ ที่ร้านอาหาร แห่งหนึ่ง เพื่อปรึกษาการเตรียมการให้กกต.ที่ให้การเ ป็นคุณในการอ้างข้อกฎหมาย เพื่อให้พรรคไม่ถูกยุบ ตามการหารือของ เปรม และ ตุลาการรัฐธรรมนูญที่ได้ปรึกษากันอย่างเคร ่งเครียด เนื่องจากข้อเท็จจริงประชาธิปัตย์จนมุม

[Democrat MP for Ranong province Virach Romyen, in his capacity as legal representative of the Democrats met with the Secretary-General of the Constitution Court at a restaurant in order to prepare the Election Commission testimony to be positive in a legal aspect so that the party is not dissolved. This comes after the serious consulting with Prem and Constitution Court judges as from the facts, the Democrats are in a corner]

Hmmmm..........

They just can't help themselves can they.

Edited October 18, 2010 by Thai at Heart

[way2muchcoffee]

Hmmmm..........

They just can't help themselves can they.

If you read the entire BP piece on this you will see that the youtube captions are highly inflammatory and in some cases misrepresent what took place. Matichon has their summary which is softer and less inflammatory. BP blows the first video out of the water completely and reserves judgment on the rest.

Edited October 18, 2010 by way2muchcoffee

[Buchholz]

Meanwhile, back to the story. There are actually 5 videos. A very brief analysis of what the videos are showing can be found here;

http://asiancorrespo...ed-videos-about

What is the source for Videos # 3, # 4, and # 5?

Who is, evidently secretly, recording court judges discussing a current case in private chambers and who released this into a public domain?

[Thai at Heart]

Meanwhile, back to the story. There are actually 5 videos. A very brief analysis of what the videos are showing can be found here;

http://asiancorrespo...ed-videos-about

What is the source for Videos # 3, # 4, and # 5?

Who is, evidently secretly, recording court judges discussing a current case in private chambers and who released this into a public domain?

Indeed, it is astonishing isn't it.

[Buchholz]

Meanwhile, back to the story. There are actually 5 videos. A very brief analysis of what the videos are showing can be found here;

http://asiancorrespo...ed-videos-about

What is the source for Videos # 3, # 4, and # 5?

Who is, evidently secretly, recording court judges discussing a current case in private chambers and who released this into a public domain?

Indeed, it is astonishing isn't it.

I think I just got an answer to my questions:

Court Sacks Person Believed to be Responsible for Video Clip

The Constitution Court has announced that it is firing Pasit Sakdanarong from the post of secretary. Pasit is believed to be responsible for video taping a confidential meeting between Constitution Court judges. He is also believed to have released that clip and others involving a legal advisor to the Democrat Party on the internet.

-- Tan Network 2010-10-18

[Buchholz]

Even with this situation, it's uncertain as to who was doing what and why. The meeting was initiated by the court's secretary. Why and to what end?

The Constitution Court has announced that it is firing Pasit Sakdanarong from the post of secretary.

and I think it answers another question above, but raises another.

How much did Pasit get paid?

[Buchholz]

What is it about Pheu Thai Party and their clown spokesman that every time they go to do something, it blows up in their faces as much as their Red affiliate did in Nonthaburi?

[animatic]

With every political party discredited by trying to fix court cases in various ways. With parties seemingly connected to bombings and violence. With both PAD and UDD angry at how state power sympathetic to government of the time was used against them. With virtually every player having called at some time for a coup and some calling for revolution. With no consensus and no willingness to play proper parliamentary games with proper checks and balances. With all governments being totally corrupt and employing various degrees of human rights abuse. With parties willing to take an election victory and use it try and interfere in the judicial branch rather than legislate for the country or govern. With parties willing to use checks and balances to destroy elected government. With absolutely no politcal player who can be trusted

What is the future politically? How can any political party or leader be trusted? This is the reality. Thailand is at the bottom democratically and from Thaksin to Abhisit there is nobody who is going to resolve this. They are all part of the problem and not the solution. Elections wont solve anythin. Coups....

Which goes a long way to explaining why the army tends to dominate the political scene regularly. There doesn't appear to be ANY political group competent enough and square enough on the level, to actually run the country.

Part of the problem is they always throw out a constitution with problems, and start from fresh, but that just installs DIFFERENT problems. The main issue regardless of that lack of logical thought, is the schooling does nothing to remove the obey and learn by rote, kow tow mindset that makes for people to follow those with money rather than those with good ideas.

Anyone with good ideas, if they get a chance to work, are hamstrung by the old school corrupt attitudes of most of those around them, and that again goes to out of control kow tow mindset. Liege lords and power brokers are the mechanism of power here and democracy a mis-understood overlay by the majority of people and just a chimera worn like the emperors clothes by most politicians, while the continue the old ways.

Correct elections will solve nothing, when those up for election are themselves controlled from cradle to grave by their out of date mentality of subservience, and kow tow to those who have big money of any provenance, and thus power to get a deeper wei, and the chance to take control for a time.

It seems to remain for the army to actually install a properly updated constitution, that actually WILL keep the corrupt politicians in check, but it seems they are either not capable of this either, or unwilling. Until the school system trains a generation with MORAL fiber and anything resembling a social conscience on a mass scale, the cycle of political boom and bust will continue and those not getting a fair shake at the bottom tiers of financial existence will gravitate to the demagogues with the most power to spin a good set of promises, and hold up a carrot for them to lust over.

Sad, sad sad.

Edited October 18, 2010 by animatic

[webfact]

Democrat MP Denies Lobbying Court in Party Dissolution Case

This is a part of a video clip that was posted on YouTube, following a press conference held by Pheu Thai Party spokesman Prompong Nopparit on Sunday.

Prompong claims that the Democrat Party’s Ranong MP, Wirat Romyen was the identified person talking with Secretary to Constitutional Court’s President, Pasit Sadanarong, in the clip.

He alleged that the talks were focused on the Election Commission Chairman Apichart Sukhagganond taking the stand as a defense witness.

The Pheu Thai Party spokesman also said that he would collect signatures from Members of Parliament requesting that Wirat be impeached for interfering with justice.

But without any proof, Wirat, the man at the center of the allegation, has admitted it was him in the clip. Wirat conceded to having met with the Secretary to the Constitutional Court’s President, but denied that the meeting was amicable and personal. He said that it had nothing to do with the dissolution case of the Democrat Party.

The Democrat MP countered that the release of the video clips was merely an attempt to sabotage the ruling party, which could not force him to take any responsibility because he claims he has done nothing wrong.

Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva said that although he has not watched the controversial video clip, he is still confident that there is no need for any manipulation, as the party’s legal team is confident that it has strong evidence to defend the graft allegations brought against it.

Meanwhile, New Politics Party Secretary-General, Suriyasai Katasila is calling on all related parties to quickly clarify the issue in order to uphold the credibility of the Thai justice system.

Suriyasai is worried that the Pheu Thai Party’s move will worsen the country's political situation.

In a side note, today, the Constitutional Court is scheduled to hear final testimony from defense witnesses, who are mainly key members of the Democrat Party, including PM Abhisit.

-- Tan Network 2010-10-18

[animatic]

What is it about Pheu Thai Party and their clown spokesman that every time they go to do something, it blows up in their faces as much as their Red affiliate did in Nonthaburi?

They are the 3rd string of TRT, and dregs of PPP, and thus were never competent enough to hold power. Remember Samak's cabinet and the ever voluble Noppadom not even knowing the proper functions and limits of their job descriptions. Can't even assign someone to read the constitution and explain it to them as to what they can and can not do. Shear incompetence, and a mono-manaic willingness to work for Thaksins good, heedless of the good of the nation as a whole.

Is it really so bad that + or - 1/2 of the legislative branch is so inept that it can't even function as a constructive opposition and create legislation that isn't handed down to them by their liege lord?

Is it so inept that the PTP head of the money laundering investigative committee has so little idea about tracing monetary transactions, that his own secretary can be caught in 48 hours for the shear stupidity of money transfers to those directly connected to bombings and deaths from sheer bomb maker incompetence? And the only excuse is transparent dissembling and stalling?

Not to mention the blindingly inept logic of fielding Red Shorts for office right after the Red Shirts have held the main shopping district hostage for months and burned major parts of the city? Are they really this inept? It would appear from the evidence yes.

So if so, how can they ever hope to actually RUN the country.

Oh wait they don't want to run it, they want to MILK IT, like a prize cow.

Edited October 18, 2010 by animatic

[jayboy]

It seems to remain for the army to actually install a properly updated constitution, that actually WILL keep the corrupt politicians in check, but it seems they are either not capable of this either, or unwilling.

Whether willing or unwilling you ignore the reality that the senior generals are as corrupt as the politicians.Ghastly though they are I still prefer elected politicians to self appointed "guardians of the nation", tainted as they are by criminality and greed.

[Buchholz]

What is it about Pheu Thai Party and their clown spokesman that every time they go to do something, it blows up in their faces as much as their Red affiliate did in Nonthaburi?

They are the 3rd string of TRT, and dregs of PPP, and thus were never competent enough to hold power. Remember Samak's cabinet and the ever voluble Noppadom not even knowing the proper functions and limits of their job descriptions. Can't even assign someone to read the constitution and explain it to them as to what they can and can not do. Shear incompetence, and a mono-maniac willingness to work for Thaksins good, heedless of the good of the nation as a whole.

ah yes... I have to remember, that even though they are affiliated with the San Diego Padres, the "3rd string" Single A farm team of that organization, the Fort Wayne Tin Caps, don't produce much in the way of high-caliber baseball.

Team Logo

[phiphidon]

What is it about Pheu Thai Party and their clown spokesman that every time they go to do something, it blows up in their faces as much as their Red affiliate did in Nonthaburi?

OK so they've sacked the messenger. That does not detract from the major implication that the democrats were trying to influence the judicial system. Whether this is the case or not, maybe we will find out. After all the Constitution Court has taken it seriously enough to "to pursue a criminal investigation against anyone involved in the alleged lobbying". In addition "an internal investigation will be carried out". When, or even if, the results of these actions are made known, it will make for interesting reading. We shall see, maybe.

http://www.nationmul...d-30140301.html

Edited October 18, 2010 by phiphidon

[Buchholz]

What is it about Pheu Thai Party and their clown spokesman that every time they go to do something, it blows up in their faces as much as their Red affiliate did in Nonthaburi?

OK so they've sacked the messenger. That does not detract from the major implication that the democrats were trying to influence the judicial system. Whether this is the case or not, maybe we will find out. After all the Constitution Court has taken it seriously enough to "to pursue a criminal investigation against anyone involved in the alleged lobbying". In addition "an internal investigation will be carried out". When, or even if, the results of these actions are made known, it will make for interesting reading. We shall see, maybe.

http://www.nationmul...d-30140301.html

Did the court sack the "messenger" or did it sack the "instigator"?

If the person that called for the meeting, then videotaped it without its participants knowledge, then publicly displayed it via a Pheu Thai Party spokesman news conference and then being promptly sacked the next day for his shenanigans doesn't "detract" from the situation, I 'm not sure what will.

It's terrific that the court itself is instituting an internal investigation to uncover who it was that was lobbying this fired individual of theirs and what these criminals hoped to gain by hiring him for his illegal activities, such as covertly filming judges as they met in private to discuss a case.

It seems like one week it's the Reds turn to do something that discredits themselves (such as blowing up an apartment building) even further and then the next week it's the PTP's turn.

Edited October 18, 2010 by Buchholz

[way2muchcoffee]

OK so they've sacked the messenger. That does not detract from the major implication that the democrats were trying to influence the judicial system. Whether this is the case or not, maybe we will find out. After all the Constitution Court has taken it seriously enough to "to pursue a criminal investigation against anyone involved in the alleged lobbying". In addition "an internal investigation will be carried out". When, or even if, the results of these actions are made known, it will make for interesting reading. We shall see, maybe.

http://www.nationmul...d-30140301.html

Actually it does detract from the implication that the Democrats were attempting to lobby the court. Here are the facts as known today.

1) Secretary to Court conceals cameras in judges chambers and videotapes their deliberations.

2) Secretary to Court arranges a meeting with a Democrat Minister.

3) Secretary to Court leads Democrat MP into a conversation about the case.

4) Secretary to Court films this conversation as well.

5) Secretary to Court provides all video footage to PTP Ministers.

6) These videos are posted on youtube with inaccurate and misleading captions.

7) PTP/UDD have a history of making public doctored videos in an attempt to smear the Democrat Party.

Smells like a carefully orchestrated set-up to me.

Edited October 18, 2010 by way2muchcoffee

[xminator]

Too many steps to be the case. Why not make it simpler?

1. Secretary of court didnt not like to be blackmailed

2. Secretary of court secretly filmed one of the "arranged" meetings

Fact is once again the high horse clean party is caught with a smoking gun and bloody knife while saying "I dun done nothing!". And since they hold both ends of the power rope nothing happens while the fanboys can make up wild conspiracy of what really happened. Its not that it happens thats most shocking, its the transparency and by the unashamed arrogancy that it happens.

[animatic]

It seems to remain for the army to actually install a properly updated constitution, that actually WILL keep the corrupt politicians in check, but it seems they are either not capable of this either, or unwilling.

Whether willing or unwilling you ignore the reality that the senior generals are as corrupt as the politicians.Ghastly though they are I still prefer elected politicians to self appointed "guardians of the nation", tainted as they are by criminality and greed.

No, I didn't ignore that, I just didn't address it nor condone it specifically.

It is a given that ANY Thai structure is riddle with corruption.

The one think the military hasin it's favor is something resembling organization,

and a some sort of command structure and consistent educational system to reach the top.

The politicians themselves seem to lack anything of the sort

except looking who has the most money to throw at them.

Edited October 18, 2010 by animatic

[Buchholz]

Too many steps to be the case. Why not make it simpler?

1. Secretary of court didnt not like to be blackmailed

2. Secretary of court secretly filmed one of the "arranged" meetings

Fact is once again the high horse clean party is caught with a smoking gun and bloody knife while saying "I dun done nothing!". And since they hold both ends of the power rope nothing happens while the fanboys can make up wild conspiracy of what really happened. Its not that it happens thats most shocking, its the transparency and by the unashamed arrogancy that it happens.

What is shocking is how simple and quickly the amateurish dirty tricks of the Pheu Thai Party unravel.

Whether it's producing cheaply doctored audio tapes or illegally produced and inadmissible video tapes, this PTP bunch is like the novel titled,

Indeed the "transparency" level of their thinly-veiled, ill-intentioned and nefarious destablizing acts shows an "unashamed arrogance" at just how pathetic their attempts are.

Edited October 18, 2010 by Buchholz

[animatic]

What is it about Pheu Thai Party and their clown spokesman that every time they go to do something, it blows up in their faces as much as their Red affiliate did in Nonthaburi?

OK so they've sacked the messenger. That does not detract from the major implication that the democrats were trying to influence the judicial system. Whether this is the case or not, maybe we will find out. After all the Constitution Court has taken it seriously enough to "to pursue a criminal investigation against anyone involved in the alleged lobbying". In addition "an internal investigation will be carried out". When, or even if, the results of these actions are made known, it will make for interesting reading. We shall see, maybe.

http://www.nationmul...d-30140301.html

Right,

talking to the court secretary as opposed to what?

Say, handing a pastry box of cash to the court secretary,

to get the boss off the hook?

So we have a bruhaha over a conversation illegally filmed

vs

the PTP big bosses lawyers ALL going to jail for attempting bribery of the court?

Remember now that the mensch among mensch with the pastry box crew

is hand picking the PTP leadership and who the next PM would be if they win,

while convicted and on the run for corruption charges.

Little Devil or Devil Extraordinaire.

The choice is clear.

Edited October 18, 2010 by animatic

[animatic]

OK so they've sacked the messenger. That does not detract from the major implication that the democrats were trying to influence the judicial system. Whether this is the case or not, maybe we will find out. After all the Constitution Court has taken it seriously enough to "to pursue a criminal investigation against anyone involved in the alleged lobbying". In addition "an internal investigation will be carried out". When, or even if, the results of these actions are made known, it will make for interesting reading. We shall see, maybe.

http://www.nationmul...d-30140301.html

Actually it does detract from the implication that the Democrats were attempting to lobby the court. Here are the facts as known today.

1) Secretary to Court conceals cameras in judges chambers and videotapes their deliberations.

2) Secretary to Court arranges a meeting with a Democrat Minister.

3) Secretary to Court leads Democrat MP into a conversation about the case.

4) Secretary to Court films this conversation as well.

5) Secretary to Court provides all video footage to PTP Ministers.

6) These videos are posted on youtube with inaccurate and misleading captions.

7) PTP/UDD have a history of making public doctored videos in an attempt to smear the Democrat Party.

Smells like a carefully orchestrated set-up to me.

What AGAIN!!!! How could this be!

Did the PTP ministers meet the Secretary at the On Nut Bus stop to get the new videos? Or did he just go to Yingluck's office directly and have coffee and pastries?

Edited October 18, 2010 by animatic

[OzMick]

It seems to remain for the army to actually install a properly updated constitution, that actually WILL keep the corrupt politicians in check, but it seems they are either not capable of this either, or unwilling.

Whether willing or unwilling you ignore the reality that the senior generals are as corrupt as the politicians.Ghastly though they are I still prefer elected politicians to self appointed "guardians of the nation", tainted as they are by criminality and greed.

Generals are not self-appointed. They are promoted by a promotions board which sends its recommendations to govt to be approved and signed off by head of state.

If you meant that they are self-appointed as "guardians of the nation," strangely enough that is the function of the military, to defend against the nations enemies both internal and external. In the 10 years that I spent here, they seemed to carry out that function quite well.

[rubl]

OK so they've sacked the messenger. That does not detract from the major implication that the democrats were trying to influence the judicial system. Whether this is the case or not, maybe we will find out. After all the Constitution Court has taken it seriously enough to "to pursue a criminal investigation against anyone involved in the alleged lobbying". In addition "an internal investigation will be carried out". When, or even if, the results of these actions are made known, it will make for interesting reading. We shall see, maybe.

http://www.nationmul...d-30140301.html

Actually it does detract from the implication that the Democrats were attempting to lobby the court. Here are the facts as known today.

1) Secretary to Court conceals cameras in judges chambers and videotapes their deliberations.

2) Secretary to Court arranges a meeting with a Democrat Minister.

3) Secretary to Court leads Democrat MP into a conversation about the case.

4) Secretary to Court films this conversation as well.

5) Secretary to Court provides all video footage to PTP Ministers.

6) These videos are posted on youtube with inaccurate and misleading captions.

7) PTP/UDD have a history of making public doctored videos in an attempt to smear the Democrat Party.

Smells like a carefully orchestrated set-up to me.

Nowhere in the articles I find that the Dem's talked with one of the judges. There's a secretly filmed scene with judges, a disjoint scene with the secretary Pasit discussing the case with two Dem's. Next you know the tapes are in PTP hands and on youtube. A setup, who knows.

It really is a pity that the lunchbox case wasn't filmed, even more suspicious someone returned the box before filing a case. The two lawyers got six months.

How much for a deliberatively and secret filming of judges and equally deliberatively setup of MP's ? Don't worry about the framing of MP's though, they get used to that

Edited October 18, 2010 by rubl

[animatic]

Contrived, and with a distinct oder of decay to the whole proceedings.

Just another last minute bid to sink the Dems by hook or crook... mostly crook.

PTP has tried dozens of mis-leading documentary evidence based attacks,

uniformly later proved false and lamely contrived, over the last few years.

Why anyone at this late stage could imagine they have suddenly upped their game, I can't imagine. This whole TPI Poline / poster size error charges embroglio has seemed contrived, and I suspect the specter of 'losing the game entirely' is dawning on PTP, and they are clutching at straws again, to close the deal and win the jackpot. And being careless in the doing.

Edited October 18, 2010 by animatic

[way2muchcoffee]

Contrived, and with a distinct oder of decay to the whole proceedings.

Just another last minute bid to sink the Dems by hook or crook... mostly crook.

PTP has tried dozens of mis-leading documentary evidence based attacks,

uniformly later proved false and lamely contrived, over the last few years.

Why anyone at this late stage could imagine they have suddenly upped their game,

I can't imagine. This whole TPI Poline / poster size error charges embroglio has seemed contrived, and I suspect the specter of 'losing the game entirely' is dawning on PTP, and they are clutching at straws again, to close the deal and win the jackpot. And being careless in the doing.

Interesting that the secretary in question flew out of Thailand bound for Hong Kong on the 13th of this month. Very convenient. Hong Kong is a rather expensive destination for most mid-level functionaries.

Edited October 18, 2010 by way2muchcoffee

[mca]

If you meant that they are self-appointed as "guardians of the nation," strangely enough that is the function of the military, to defend against the nations enemies both internal and external. In the 10 years that I spent here, they seemed to carry out that function quite well.

Tak Bai anyone?

[animatic]

Contrived, and with a distinct oder of decay to the whole proceedings.

Just another last minute bid to sink the Dems by hook or crook... mostly crook.

PTP has tried dozens of mis-leading documentary evidence based attacks,

uniformly later proved false and lamely contrived, over the last few years.

Why anyone at this late stage could imagine they have suddenly upped their game,

I can't imagine. This whole TPI Poline / poster size error charges embroglio has seemed contrived, and I suspect the specter of 'losing the game entirely' is dawning on PTP, and they are clutching at straws again, to close the deal and win the jackpot. And being careless in the doing.

Interesting that the secretary in question flew out of Thailand bound for Hong Kong on the 13th of this month. Very convenient. Hong Kong is a rather expensive destination for most mid-level functionaries.

Out of sight, out of mind, out of distance for questioning.

No doubt he has some pastry to spread around.

[LaoPo]

Yes,why not try to silence another voice not to your liking.

I didn't silence anyone and I didn't draft the Thaivisa Forum Rules as well.

But, I understand you're taking sides with your friend, no matter how many alter ego's he created.

That's to be admired, taking sides that is

LaoPo

[LaoPo]

snobism and superiority feelings at it's finest; unbelievable...

I'm sorry if you feel that constructive suggestions to improve the readability and thus understanding of posted news articles by all is "snobbish" and "superior"

Don't feel sorry; it's hypocritical what you're trying to tell other members.

You're talking about forum rules but you're breaking the same rules.

LaoPo

[rubl]

Interesting that the secretary in question flew out of Thailand bound for Hong Kong on the 13th of this month. Very convenient. Hong Kong is a rather expensive destination for most mid-level functionaries.

HK is one of the more favorite places to go for lots of PTP-ers. Mostly to meet k. Thaksin. Maybe when he gave to video clips to PTP he was advised to take a short break away from it all