What Does A Professional Seo With Your Website, What You Can Actually Do By Yourself Too ?

[bangkokcitylimits]

Do we really need a SEO ? I guess so because they are not cheap... But what do they do what we can easily do our self, exept from simply adding good metatags ?

If you do webdesign for whatever professional use, but you aren't a professional SEO, would you hire one ?

[sulasno]

I would if I want to generate income from the site

[mjnaus]

SEO and SEM (Search Engine Marketing) are NOT about adding meta tags to your pages (SEO values of especially the keywords tags has really depreciated over the recent years). You should look at SEO and SEM as a tactic to achieve a certain goal, and this tactic can be made up from a whole range of measures, ranging from basic "best practice" web design (like proper use of title tags, heading tags, bold/strong tags, content and keyword density) to link building, keyword optimization, site clustering, local optimization, search proximity optimization, etc.

Be aware of the fact that many so-called SEO specialists have truly no clue of what they're actually doing and have no problem with charging up to 5 or sometimes 6 figure fees with mediocre results at best.

The best thing for you would be to first determine what it is that you're after before thinking about SEO itself. Do you want to just increase sales with a certain percentage? Or do you want to rank in the top 10 on Google for certain keywords in your industry? Both are possible, but require different SEO tactics. Next, get in touch with some people or companies who claim they can help you achieve this goal, make sure you can plenty of reference of past work to make sure they know what they're doing (if you get into bed with the wrong people, meaning people who use tactics most search engines don't appreciate, this can result in your site being removed from Googles or Yahoos search index).

If you have any specific questions, feel free to send me a PM or post them here, I'll do my best to answer them.

Edited October 10, 2010 by mjnaus

[huma79]

Make sure you find a reputable SEO, as the poster above said most have no idea. Doing the wrong things could easily put your site lower in rankings as Google may penalize you.

[anon10]

SEO is crap!!!

You do it, everybody does it... so here is no end, and how more domain names/similair businesses, how more those SEO guys can fill their pockets.

[Pria]

SEO is crap!!!

You do it, everybody does it... so here is no end, and how more domain names/similair businesses, how more those SEO guys can fill their pockets.

Absolutely right. Very insightful. Now just point us all to your website and tell us how many keywords you have that get your website on Google P1 Serps. Are you using Adwords oh wise and insightful one? How many visitors are landing on your site? Where are they coming from? How long are they staying? What percentage buy something? I'm sure after such an intelligent post here you're not going to come back and say you don't have a wesbsite, are you? And I'm sure you run a spell checker over your oh so well performing website, unlike what you post in here because otherwise that would just be giving your website visitors a crap experience, which is a negative factor in SEO.

To the Op, there's lots of things you can do yourself. Depends on your ability and what type of website you have.

If you use an outside SEO consultancy not only do they need to know what they are talking about but you need to sit down and come up with realistic results that you both agree on and a time frame first.

Make sure your URLs are pretty and meaningful and not something that signals nothing to the search engines.

Make sure your photos have alt text and not stock codes

Make proper use of your H1 and H2 headers.

Block non important pages such as "Employment" (unless you're an employment agency) from being crawled.

Make sure your website is submitted to all major AND second level search engines.

Make sure your content is original and not copied from somewhere else.

Post articles to article submission sites.

Build backlinks.

It all depends on what your definition of expensive is OP?

There's no shortage of people in Thailand who want to have the best website in the world built for them for Bt5,000 or Bt10,000 and also expect to be on Google P1 a month after the website goes live. Without knowing more about your website its difficult to know how much you can do yourself fairly easily and what tasks are going to be a challenge for you.

But as someone else already said, be careful of the snake oil salesmen (and women).

[bangkokcitylimits]

Interesting.

[joncl]

SEO is crap!!!

You do it, everybody does it... so here is no end, and how more domain names/similair businesses, how more those SEO guys can fill their pockets.

Absolutely right. Very insightful. Now just point us all to your website and tell us how many keywords you have that get your website on Google P1 Serps. Are you using Adwords oh wise and insightful one? How many visitors are landing on your site? Where are they coming from? How long are they staying? What percentage buy something? I'm sure after such an intelligent post here you're not going to come back and say you don't have a wesbsite, are you? And I'm sure you run a spell checker over your oh so well performing website, unlike what you post in here because otherwise that would just be giving your website visitors a crap experience, which is a negative factor in SEO.

To the Op, there's lots of things you can do yourself. Depends on your ability and what type of website you have.

If you use an outside SEO consultancy not only do they need to know what they are talking about but you need to sit down and come up with realistic results that you both agree on and a time frame first.

Make sure your URLs are pretty and meaningful and not something that signals nothing to the search engines.

Make sure your photos have alt text and not stock codes

Make proper use of your H1 and H2 headers.

Block non important pages such as "Employment" (unless you're an employment agency) from being crawled.

Make sure your website is submitted to all major AND second level search engines.

Make sure your content is original and not copied from somewhere else.

Post articles to article submission sites.

Build backlinks.

It all depends on what your definition of expensive is OP?

There's no shortage of people in Thailand who want to have the best website in the world built for them for Bt5,000 or Bt10,000 and also expect to be on Google P1 a month after the website goes live. Without knowing more about your website its difficult to know how much you can do yourself fairly easily and what tasks are going to be a challenge for you.

But as someone else already said, be careful of the snake oil salesmen (and women).

I know this post was not meant for everyone, but I could not resist saying, I have never used any third party to do ours (build or promote), as I did it myself and they rank highly on most search engines worldwide albeit this is not my business (design/build/promote we sites), and with your list I can check all the boxes like,

Google P1 Serps - YES

Adwords - YES

Integrated Google / other APP API's - YES

Make sure your URLs are pretty and meaningful and not something that signals nothing to the search engines. - YES

Make sure your photos have alt text and not stock codes - YES

Make proper use of your H1 and H2 headers. - YES

Block non important pages such as "Employment" (unless you're an employment agency) from being crawled. - YES

Make sure your website is submitted to all major AND second level search engines. - YES

Make sure your content is original and not copied from somewhere else. - YES

Post articles to article submission sites. - YES

Build backlink - YES

Much more - YES

It can be done, and a bit of fun on the way to.

[Pria]

I know this post was not meant for everyone, but I could not resist saying, I have never used any third party to do ours (build or promote), as I did it myself and they rank highly on most search engines worldwide albeit this is not my business (design/build/promote we sites), and with your list I can check all the boxes like,

Google P1 Serps - YES

Adwords - YES

Integrated Google / other APP API's - YES

Make sure your URLs are pretty and meaningful and not something that signals nothing to the search engines. - YES

Make sure your photos have alt text and not stock codes - YES

Make proper use of your H1 and H2 headers. - YES

Block non important pages such as "Employment" (unless you're an employment agency) from being crawled. - YES

Make sure your website is submitted to all major AND second level search engines. - YES

Make sure your content is original and not copied from somewhere else. - YES

Post articles to article submission sites. - YES

Build backlink - YES

Much more - YES

It can be done, and a bit of fun on the way to.

Jonci,

You've pretty well hit the nail on the head. SEO is not rocket science. There are some very basic things that contribute a lot to improving your Serp. I noticed you added "Much more" to the bottom and that's true too. There is much more. The list I gave was really just a starting guide for the OP. Some people are able to do these basics and others can't or don't have the time.

The one thing I'd like to point out though is that while Adwords is great for instantly driving prospects to your website, with Google AdWords you pay for every person who clicks one of your ads and the system is not immune to fraud. There's even been an ad running in TV Classifieds for people to earn money by clicking on online ads.

An effective SEO strategy will see the reliance on Adwords drop significantly and generate additional profit from money not paid for Adwords, with good SEO driving quality visitors to your website. If SEO is done properly your traffic should continue from organic search well after your Adwords campaign has stopped.

Too many people think all they need do is throw up a website and that's it. It's like any other aspect of business and needs to be maintained and adjusted. A website is not a billboard - then again, the message on billboards is changed regularly too because people get used to seeing the same thing and it ends up being ineffective.

You're right tho. It's fun... and also satisfying to see the changing results.

Too many people who hold themselves up as SEO experts or gurus make the whole SEO thing sound like rocket science. There's no shortage of snake oil salesmen trying to confuse website owners with smoke and mirrors here in Thailand ad the truth of the matter is that the only SEO experts work for Google and know the algorithms and I can't recall one who has ever left Google and spilled the secrets. Not that it would do much good as the algorithms are constantly being changed.

One of the main factors presently is page load speed. This was forecast mid last year and lots of people poo-pooed it. Well, page load speed is now a major factor Google takes into consideration.

For the Op I think your response is very valuable and contributes a lot to this topic.

[Crushdepth]

SEO is mainly about following good web design practices, the benefit for a well built/maintained site is marginal. It should also be kept in perspective - the best way to improve your site ranking is to provide high quality content and services. If your site content sucks, no amount of SEO will help it.

On speed, from the Official Google Blog:

While site speed is a new signal, it doesn't carry as much weight as the relevance of a page. Currently, fewer than 1% of search queries are affected by the site speed signal in our implementation and the signal for site speed only applies for visitors searching in English on Google.com at this point. We launched this change a few weeks back after rigorous testing. If you haven't seen much change to your site rankings, then this site speed change possibly did not impact your site.

I fully agree that a very large percentage of "SEO experts" are just unqualified cranks trying to suck money by sprinkling magical SEO fairy dust on your Google ratings. If you must hire one go to a reputable company and do not bother speaking to unsolicited offers from consultants. And avoid companies that offer to 'build backlinks' eg. by hiring peanuts in third-world countries to spam forums with your URL.

[bangkockney]

Large SEO companies with good levels of cash can buy into products like Hitwise which are bloody fantastic. Entry level subscription is £10k/year, so not accessible to everyone.

Had the joy of playing with Hitwise for a few years in an old job and so jealous that I can't use it anymore.

[bangkockney]

I know this post was not meant for everyone, but I could not resist saying, I have never used any third party to do ours (build or promote), as I did it myself and they rank highly on most search engines worldwide albeit this is not my business (design/build/promote we sites), and with your list I can check all the boxes like,

Google P1 Serps - YES

Adwords - YES

Integrated Google / other APP API's - YES

Make sure your URLs are pretty and meaningful and not something that signals nothing to the search engines. - YES

Make sure your photos have alt text and not stock codes - YES

Make proper use of your H1 and H2 headers. - YES

Block non important pages such as "Employment" (unless you're an employment agency) from being crawled. - YES

Make sure your website is submitted to all major AND second level search engines. - YES

Make sure your content is original and not copied from somewhere else. - YES

Post articles to article submission sites. - YES

Build backlink - YES

Much more - YES

It can be done, and a bit of fun on the way to.

Jonci,

You've pretty well hit the nail on the head. SEO is not rocket science. There are some very basic things that contribute a lot to improving your Serp. I noticed you added "Much more" to the bottom and that's true too. There is much more. The list I gave was really just a starting guide for the OP. Some people are able to do these basics and others can't or don't have the time.

The one thing I'd like to point out though is that while Adwords is great for instantly driving prospects to your website, with Google AdWords you pay for every person who clicks one of your ads and the system is not immune to fraud. There's even been an ad running in TV Classifieds for people to earn money by clicking on online ads.

An effective SEO strategy will see the reliance on Adwords drop significantly and generate additional profit from money not paid for Adwords, with good SEO driving quality visitors to your website. If SEO is done properly your traffic should continue from organic search well after your Adwords campaign has stopped.

Too many people think all they need do is throw up a website and that's it. It's like any other aspect of business and needs to be maintained and adjusted. A website is not a billboard - then again, the message on billboards is changed regularly too because people get used to seeing the same thing and it ends up being ineffective.

You're right tho. It's fun... and also satisfying to see the changing results.

Too many people who hold themselves up as SEO experts or gurus make the whole SEO thing sound like rocket science. There's no shortage of snake oil salesmen trying to confuse website owners with smoke and mirrors here in Thailand ad the truth of the matter is that the only SEO experts work for Google and know the algorithms and I can't recall one who has ever left Google and spilled the secrets. Not that it would do much good as the algorithms are constantly being changed.

One of the main factors presently is page load speed. This was forecast mid last year and lots of people poo-pooed it. Well, page load speed is now a major factor Google takes into consideration.

For the Op I think your response is very valuable and contributes a lot to this topic.

I would add to your excellent post that one should aim for a traffic split of 1/3 for paid, organic and referral. This makes sure your traffic is not biased in one way or another and therefore not threatened by things out of your control (referral websites dying, algorithm changes etc).

Adwords is a good tool and paid search should form a part of everyone's strategy because it can be so highly targeted. Negative keywords are a must as is the correct selection of landing page. I've seen many people just dump all their paid traffic to their home page and wonder why they have poor ROI.

[Pria]

SEO is mainly about following good web design practices, the benefit for a well built/maintained site is marginal. It should also be kept in perspective - the best way to improve your site ranking is to provide high quality content and services. If your site content sucks, no amount of SEO will help it.

On speed, from the Official Google Blog:

While site speed is a new signal, it doesn't carry as much weight as the relevance of a page. Currently, fewer than 1% of search queries are affected by the site speed signal in our implementation and the signal for site speed only applies for visitors searching in English on Google.com at this point. We launched this change a few weeks back after rigorous testing. If you haven't seen much change to your site rankings, then this site speed change possibly did not impact your site.

I fully agree that a very large percentage of "SEO experts" are just unqualified cranks trying to suck money by sprinkling magical SEO fairy dust on your Google ratings. If you must hire one go to a reputable company and do not bother speaking to unsolicited offers from consultants. And avoid companies that offer to 'build backlinks' eg. by hiring peanuts in third-world countries to spam forums with your URL.

It's much more than just good web design practices. A well maintained site means one that is updated frequently for a start and the benefits are certainly not marginal. Google has continuously stressed the importance of “original content” and the “user experience," so just good content, if it comes from somewhere else, is not going to cut it. And don't knock the backlink builders too much. Backlinks are important and for a new website or one that has low rankings they can help a lot if they are done properly and to the right sites. The quote that you took from Webmaster blogs is dated April 9, that's an eternity in search engine terms. Page load speed is very much a factor Google is pursuing and a reason for having nice tight code and optimized (technically) pages, again, relating to the use experience. If your website is slower than 28 seconds to load on a 56Kb service then your users aren't getting a nice experience. hel_l, most of them won't even be around by the time the page loads.

To many people get hung up on Page Rank and ignore the other more relevant benchmarking factors.

While some website owners have the luxury of time to pour over their websites, most business owners don't. Likewise many people setting up a website for the first time don't have the knowledge and if their business isn't selling off the internet then most don't want to know. They want a website that works and brings them results and don't have the time or inclination to learn how to change the oil. And that's exactly where skilled SEO professionals come into the picture. Again I avoid using the much exaggerated term "SEO experts" or "guru".

The sad thing is that so many people here in LOS think a Bt4,000 or Bt10,00 website is going to change their business and bring them a rapid return on their investment.

Pretty much agree with you bangkokney. Paid search is very useful but it can be a fast way to blow a lot of money if not done properly. With one client we work with in the US they've cut their paid search by $15,000 a month (they use a separate firm for Adwords) by optimizing every page of a very extensive online product catalogue. A $15,000 a month saving as a result of SEO is much more than a marginal improvement I'd say

[innerspace]

As an SEO professional myself I would say that yes you can do it by yourself and many small companies do so successfully.

The issue lies with the time required to perform and maintain a successful SEO campaign.

For a beginner with some basic computer knowledge it will take months, if not years to master all of the tricks of the trade.

Add to that the fact that search algorithms are constantly changing and strategies have to adapt too and its a never ending learning process.

As for implementing the strategies this becomes a very time consuming process, optimising pages, writing articles, building links etc.

So the real question is - is it worth your time?

By outsourcing the SEO you can focus your time on the real priority, improving your business, while SEO professionals continue to drive new customers to your site.

If you would like any further information on how SEO could help your site then please PM me.

[Crushdepth]

It's much more than just good web design practices. A well maintained site means one that is updated frequently for a start and the benefits are certainly not marginal. Google has continuously stressed the importance of “original content” and the “user experience," so just good content, if it comes from somewhere else, is not going to cut it.

What do you think I meant by *provide quality content and services* and *well built/maintained site*?

The quote that you took from Webmaster blogs is dated April 9, that's an eternity in search engine terms..Page load speed is very much a factor Google is persuing...

It was the *Official Google Blog* and I am much more inclined to take their word that speed has a marginal effect on their ranking than those of people pushing SEO consultancy services.

A $15,000 a month saving as a result of SEO is much more than a marginal improvement I'd say

I take it their site was not well built or maintained to start with

[bangkockney]

It was the *Official Google Blog* and I am much more inclined to take their word that speed has a marginal effect on their ranking than those of people pushing SEO consultancy services.

The article you quoted is from the Webmaster Blog, not the Official Google Blog.

From the same article you quoted:

We encourage you to start looking at your site's speed (the tools above provide a great starting point) — not only to improve your ranking in search engines, but also to improve everyone's experience on the Internet.

This should be read as a gentle nudge from Google that load-time will become an important factor.

What is quite ironic is that the GA code is notoriously slow, as is Google Friend Connect. Once we begin to see these services dramatically increase in speed, one can assume that Google is looking seriously at load times.

From Matt Cutts:

"Relevancy is the most important. If you have two sites that are equally relevant (same backlinks...everything else is the same), you'd probably prefer the one that's a little bit faster, so page speed can be an interesting theory to try out for a factor in scoring different websites. But absolutely, relevance is the primary component, and we have over 200 signals in our scoring to try to return the most relevant, the most useful, the most accurate search result that we can find. That's not going to change."

I think the real takeaway here is simply to make your site as fast and user-friendly as possible, within reason. If it means you have to spend less time producing relevant content that is likely to get you good search engine placement, then maybe it's not worth it. However, if it means providing a better user experience on top of relevant content, and it's within your means to do so, it will only have good implications for the future of your site.

I also do not agree with you that nothing can be learned from talking with people in the SEO industry. Google certainly will not give anything about how it ranks websites through their official blogs (and why the hel_l would they?!). Sites like seomoz, webmasterworld etc etc are fantastic places for learning about SEO. But according to you, as the info comes from SEO professionals, it is not valid.

Just as with any other SEO tactic, it is up to individuals and the industry at large to speculate, analyze, and test.

[Pria]

It's much more than just good web design practices. A well maintained site means one that is updated frequently for a start and the benefits are certainly not marginal. Google has continuously stressed the importance of "original content" and the "user experience," so just good content, if it comes from somewhere else, is not going to cut it.

What do you think I meant by *provide quality content and services* and *well built/maintained site*?

The quote that you took from Webmaster blogs is dated April 9, that's an eternity in search engine terms..Page load speed is very much a factor Google is persuing...

It was the *Official Google Blog* and I am much more inclined to take their word that speed has a marginal effect on their ranking than those of people pushing SEO consultancy services.

A $15,000 a month saving as a result of SEO is much more than a marginal improvement I'd say

I take it their site was not well built or maintained to start with

As you so correctly pointed out when you jumped into the conversation to lmbast SEO professionals, "a very large percentage of "SEO experts" are just unqualified cranks".

By your two posts now that still fail to correctly identify the source of the five month old comment you cited from the Webmaster blog (try clicking your own link and you will see it is the Official Google Webmaster Central Blog), so are a lot of website owners who think they know what SEO is all about. A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing.

As far as our US client goes, they had a perfectly well designed and structured website offering about 1,000 products but the pages hadn't been SEO'd professionally. Now it has been and they are enjoying increased traffic, increased sales, and a significant lowering in their Adwords monthly spend.

Not all websites can be SEO'd effectively or sufficiently to bring about results. Today we had a website owner ask for SEOing of their site and after examining the webiste advised them that the structure of their site (an ebay ProStores site) meant that we would not be able to deliver them the results they were seeking and advised them to rebuild their website using a more standard and recognized eCommerce platform. As is often the case in Thailand, this owner also stressed "We are very small and on an extremely tight budget as our funds are going into our product line and initial set up costs". With an Alexa of 22 million plus, no page rank, no backlinks and keywords such as "backpacks", "jewelry & accessories" and "pillows" they are well along the path of finding out how to make a small fortune in Thailand – by coming her with a large one to start with.

I'm sure someone else will jump in and tell the website owner otherwise and take their money and the results will be extremely disappointing.

If you're basing your website SEO practices on nine-month old information such as that you cited from Official Google Webmaster Central Blog then you are well and truly out of date.

As echoed by Innerspace, Most website owners don't have the time, inclination, or ability to ticker with their website, They're more interested in making money, so get people who are familiar with the latest methods to do the work for them.

Professional SEO practitioners are probably more annoyed at the SEO charlatans than the website owners they manage to weasel money out of based on a lot of hot air as these wanke_rs often cause more harm than good and give the professionals who do achieve results a bad name.

[Crushdepth]

By your two posts now that still fail to correctly identify the source of the five month old comment you cited from the Webmaster blog (try clicking your own link and you will see it is the Official Google Webmaster Central Blog)

Sorry for missing two words, does that make the link any less relevant? It was posted by Amit Singhal, a Google Fellow and Matt Cutts, the Principal Engineer of Google's Search Quality Team.

Not all websites can be SEO'd effectively or sufficiently to bring about results.

Which is exactly my point. If you build your site according to good practice, maintain it well, provide quality content and services, people will link to it organically because it is good and it will naturally do well in search engine rankings. The corollary of this is that hiring an SEO consultant will not bring much benefit, because the site is already optimised. (I call backlinks and advertising 'marketing').

If you're basing your website SEO practices on nine-month old information such as that you cited from Official Google Webmaster Central Blog then you are well and truly out of date.

Actually I was just providing a reference on a single issue - the impact of page load times on Google's search results. If you have more up to date information I would be interested to see it.

Professional SEO practitioners are probably more annoyed at the SEO charlatans than the website owners they manage to weasel money out of based on a lot of hot air as these wanke_rs often cause more harm than good and give the professionals who do achieve results a bad name.

I agree, and I am sure the OP has by now received a number of PMs from people claiming to be SEO consultants, most of whom are small sharks hoping to make a quick buck selling SEO fairy dust. The problem with this industry (and the web in general) is that it is so hopelessly stuffed full of cranks that finding people who know what they are doing can be a real headache. That's why I recommend ignoring unsolicited offers and approaching a reputable company.

[bangkockney]

Which is exactly my point. If you build your site according to good practice, maintain it well, provide quality content and services, people will link to it organically because it is good and it will naturally do well in search engine rankings. The corollary of this is that hiring an SEO consultant will not bring much benefit, because the site is already optimised. (I call backlinks and advertising 'marketing').

Yes and no.

A good SEO professional will go beyond optimisation to cover AB testing for example. Especially where increased conversion is a goal, optimisation for search is not enough. You can also design to best practice and offer original content, yet still not be optimised. Keyword density, pagination, off-page factors are all things that can be considered separately from good content. Contrary to popular belief, you can target certain densities and still keep the content natural and for users - you just have to write well.

Where your keywords appear on the page and how they appear are also techniques not covered by best practice or good content. They are SEO techniques.

A web designer does not care what the images used in a website are named. An SEO does, because he wants traffic from Google Image Search too.

There are also a lot of design techniques one can use which do not necessarily come under best practice, yet have a positive SERP effect. Such as using CSS positioning to make your content the first element of your source code and still have the page render correctly. A good SEO professional should know of these techniques, yet a professional web designer often does not employ them (most web designers code in the same order as the page would render).

Best practice does not dictate how you should name your subdirectories - SEO techniques do; a web designer would be happy to attach a blog or forum in a directory of that name, whereas an SEO worth their salt would tell you that by using that naming system you are missing an opportunity to add value to your URL.

Further, an SEO who has access to Hitwise can provide you with invaluable competitive intelligence. They will provide you information on up and downstream traffic, paid/organic ratios of your competitors, search terms which were revised (i.e. user did not find what they were looking for so searched again) relevant to your industry, keywords driving traffic to your competitors etc.

Edited October 14, 2010 by bangkockney

[huma79]

Where your keywords appear on the page and how they appear are also techniques not covered by best practice or good content. They are SEO techniques.

A web designer does not care what the images used in a website are named. An SEO does, because he wants traffic from Google Image Search too.

You may have a point here, but it's only because there are as many snake-oil web designers as there are 'SEO Professionals'. Any good web designer worth their salt will know how to integrate a site with SEO in the development process. The problem is that for every knowledgeable web designer, there are 20 others who have a pirated version of Dreamweaver and suddenly think they are a "Webmaster".

[Pria]

Where your keywords appear on the page and how they appear are also techniques not covered by best practice or good content. They are SEO techniques.

A web designer does not care what the images used in a website are named. An SEO does, because he wants traffic from Google Image Search too.

You may have a point here, but it's only because there are as many snake-oil web designers as there are 'SEO Professionals'. Any good web designer worth their salt will know how to integrate a site with SEO in the development process. The problem is that for every knowledgeable web designer, there are 20 others who have a pirated version of Dreamweaver and suddenly think they are a "Webmaster".

>>Any good web designer worth their salt will know how to integrate a site with SEO in the development process<<

No they wont and that's entirely the point and I refer you back to Bangkockney's point: "A web designer does not care what the images used in a website are named. An SEO does, because he wants traffic from Google Image Search too."

A web designer designs websites - the look, the feel, the functionality. While good designers will have a basic knowledge of SEO that is not their forte.

A programmer codes the website and I have yet to meet a talented programmer with a high-level knowledge of SEO.

An SEO focuses entirely on improving Serp's.

A webmaster on the other hand has knowledge of design, functionality, SEO, content, SNM and much more and knows when and where to find designers, programmers and SEO consultants to address the specific needs, problems or issues associated with a particular website.

>>the problem is that for every knowledgeable web designer, there are 20 others who have a pirated version of Dreamweaver and suddenly think they are a "Webmaster"<<

I agree wholeheartedly with this comment, though the last word should be website designer or website programmer, but certainly not a webmaster.

Correctly designing, building, launching, maintaining and promoting a website involves a person, or people, with more than one set of skills or expertise. Just as there are specialists in other fields of business or professions, so to is the situation in the website industry. The biggest problem are those who think otherwise and have a little bit of knowledge which makes them the equivalent of a jailhouse lawyer.

In Thailand the propensity for people to suddenly wake up in the morning and post ads on Carigslist for someone to design, build and optimise a website... "and I will pay you after you supply me with the source code and CP log in information"... "and my budget for this is Bt5,000" is unbelievable.

Lets see how far you would get with: I want you to design me a 30-story apartment building, construct it, furnish it and I'll pay you Bt10 million once you have finished and hand me the keys.

Pay peanuts and you get monkeys. Get a house full of monkeys and you're a zoo... and just another one of the exhibits that people may or may see when they visit. I've already posted a very typical request that we receive from web owners in Thailand, "We are very small and on an extremely tight budget as our funds are going into our product line and initial set up costs".

This approach is akin to loading a small truck with 500 different products, parking it in a vacant block in the middle of no-where and thinking people are going to be happy squeezing through the stock to make a purchase - if they ever find you.

In the case of the particular website that this quote is drawn from the chances of even being found are as likely as me winning an Olympic gold medal. None-the-less, this website owner is still merrily buying product and from the number of visitors to her website, selling nothing. She has nice products though so I'm sure she's happy in her own heart.

An internet-based business, is like any other business and requires more than just having a good product. There are 25,720,000,000 .com websites at the time of writing and that is what you are up against.

Edited October 16, 2010 by Pria

[Crushdepth]

A webmaster on the other hand has knowledge of design, functionality, SEO, content, SNM and much more and knows when and where to find designers, programmers and SEO consultants to address the specific needs, problems or issues associated with a particular website.

I agree with this idea, but then I associate mainly with people working for SMEs, who tend to have a broad range of technical skills because they have to. SEO is one of the more common skills because it is closely tied to content and the way it is presented - something they have to deal with on a daily basis. Most (professional) webmasters I know are well aware of the SEO measures mentioned above and (with the probable exception of keyword density) actively try and address them as part of standard practice.

Correctly designing, building, launching, maintaining and promoting a website involves a person, or people, with more than one set of skills or expertise. Just as there are specialists in other fields of business or professions, so to is the situation in the website industry.

True for large sites, but smaller sites are often are built and run by individuals.

[Pria]

A webmaster on the other hand has knowledge of design, functionality, SEO, content, SNM and much more and knows when and where to find designers, programmers and SEO consultants to address the specific needs, problems or issues associated with a particular website.

I agree with this idea, but then I associate mainly with people working for SMEs, who tend to have a broad range of technical skills because they have to. SEO is one of the more common skills because it is closely tied to content and the way it is presented - something they have to deal with on a daily basis. Most (professional) webmasters I know are well aware of the SEO measures mentioned above and (with the probable exception of keyword density) actively try and address them as part of standard practice.

Correctly designing, building, launching, maintaining and promoting a website involves a person, or people, with more than one set of skills or expertise. Just as there are specialists in other fields of business or professions, so to is the situation in the website industry.

True for large sites, but smaller sites are often are built and run by individuals.

Your last point is the worst excuse ever put forward by website owners. If you can't play like the big boys don't play with the big boys, it's as simple as that. If you're attempting to do real business then all of these aspects (and costs) are what you need to factor into your business plan before you start.

A perfect example is this very forum where the owners leverage every possible opportunity to maximize their return and everything possible to stop others from benefiting from participating - no-follow links, no signature links to commercial sites, etc. That of course is entirely their right as they are the ones who have invested a very substantial amount of money in setting TV up and maintaining it. It's not said as a bitch or moan, purely to highlight the business approach.

This obviously went straight through to the keeper: "There are 25,720,000,000 .com websites at the time of writing and that is what you are up against". You have less competition opening a 7/11. Using the "but I'm only a small business" or "I'm only an individual" doesn't wash. If you wake up sick and go to your local GP and he/she refers you to a specialist and the specialist then needs a diagnostician, a pathologist, a radiologist, etc., do you tell him/her the same thing?

I never cease to be amazed by people who think a website business doesn't have the same sorts of issues to address as a brick-and-mortar business. Some of the issues might be different, but it's more a case of sama-sama but different.

You seem to be better informed than many people and these comments are general ones rather than directed at you personally, so please don't be offended. That is not the intention. The intent is to open the eyes of people who take considerably less a professional and informed approach to their websites than you do/have.:jap:

[Crushdepth]

Well I don't agree with you there - budgets are a real world constraint in business and everywhere else. Small projects don't require large teams of hyperspecialised consultants. It is entirely within the realm of possibility for an individual to build and/or maintain a small-medium site and do a very good job of it.

[Trickcyclist]

work out how long it takes to read these posts and it will give you some idea as to how long it will take to learn SEO.

[KRS1]

<div> tags are better than <tr> tables

H1 and H2 'currently' have lower relevance than H3 and H4 tags

and Google spiders are currently making rounds in TX around the 20th of the month.

Google Places will currently get you to the top FOR FREE if your key phrase is relevant, Google Maps will to , but don't expect a generic phrase to get you there.

I'm on 1st page for hp,compaq, toshiba, acer, asus, msi, emachines, sony, vaio computer repair in a certain city in Texas. For some reason i cant seem to get 'Dell' though..

[roc634]

A common "SEO Professional" won't help a lot, because he doesn't necessarily know more than you. However, a SEO expert can greatly help. He always has a supporting team. He knows the density of the key words and the numbers of external links in a page.

SEO is a continuous job. The result of the last effort will fade gradually without maintanance.

There are a lot of free courses online. You will learn the basic of SEO by taking the kind of courses, but if you want to see a good result, an expert is needed. Experience is the most important thing.

Edited November 24, 2010 by roc634

[danbradster]

I do SEO for my own sites fairly successfully. 3000 visitors per day to my 3 business resources websites from Google. Then 5 visitors per day for my mum's accounting business website, but actually those 5 visitors equate to $5000 revenue per month!

For my mum's business it's as easy as targeting the right keywords - 'business topic suburb' and adding a Google places listing. Local search is easy to get a small amount of traffic that equates to a lot of revenue.

For the business resources websites semi-complicated keyword research helps to separate me from the competition. Quality content generated the backlinks needed to rank well. The keyword research helps me to target keywords with high search volume, low competition and reasonable marketability.

For me SEO is all about backlinks and keyword research. And the backlinks can grow on their own if I create quality content.

[james24]

I do SEO for my own sites fairly successfully. 3000 visitors per day to my 3 business resources websites from Google. Then 5 visitors per day for my mum's accounting business website, but actually those 5 visitors equate to $5000 revenue per month!

For my mum's business it's as easy as targeting the right keywords - 'business topic suburb' and adding a Google places listing. Local search is easy to get a small amount of traffic that equates to a lot of revenue.

For the business resources websites semi-complicated keyword research helps to separate me from the competition. Quality content generated the backlinks needed to rank well. The keyword research helps me to target keywords with high search volume, low competition and reasonable marketability.

For me SEO is all about backlinks and keyword research. And the backlinks can grow on their own if I create quality content.

Definately. Let your backlinks grow naturally. Dont do any blackhat stuff, its just not worth it

[KRS1]

a thesaurus is your friend