Use Of Thai Security Laws Comes Under Attack

[thequick7]

You don't address even a single issue in the article. Is k.Vivit wrong when he says 'the exception is now the rule'? Should those in prison be considered political prisoners?

In Ayutthaya a lady was arrested using these laws for selling flip flops with K.Abasits face on them. Under these laws she can be held for 30 days without charge.

This in a province where the emergency decree was supposed to have been lifted.

K.Niran said people have been jailed for thinking differently to the govt. Prove him wrong.

are you saying that thailand has laws allowing people to make money from a persons image without their consent? I don't think any country would have copyright laws allowing this?

[TheyCallmeScooter]

You don't address even a single issue in the article. Is k.Vivit wrong when he says 'the exception is now the rule'? Should those in prison be considered political prisoners?

In Ayutthaya a lady was arrested using these laws for selling flip flops with K.Abasits face on them. Under these laws she can be held for 30 days without charge.

This in a province where the emergency decree was supposed to have been lifted.

K.Niran said people have been jailed for thinking differently to the govt. Prove him wrong.

are you saying that thailand has laws allowing people to make money from a persons image without their consent? I don't think any country would have copyright laws allowing this?

No. He's claiming that the lady was arrested by police illegally. He's claiming her arrest was made by police citing an Emergency Decree which is not in effect in that province. He's demanding anyone who disagrees with his claims to disprove them.

No. He is unwilling to provide any evidence in support of his claims.

Yes. Lost on him is the fact that, if his claims were true, the evidence would have already been presented by PTP and Prachatai.

Yes. He's actually as stupid as he sounds.

[chantorn]

You don't address even a single issue in the article. Is k.Vivit wrong when he says 'the exception is now the rule'? Should those in prison be considered political prisoners?

In Ayutthaya a lady was arrested using these laws for selling flip flops with K.Abasits face on them. Under these laws she can be held for 30 days without charge.

This in a province where the emergency decree was supposed to have been lifted.

K.Niran said people have been jailed for thinking differently to the govt. Prove him wrong.

are you saying that thailand has laws allowing people to make money from a persons image without their consent? I don't think any country would have copyright laws allowing this?

No. He's claiming that the lady was arrested by police illegally. He's claiming her arrest was made by police citing an Emergency Decree which is not in effect in that province. He's demanding anyone who disagrees with his claims to disprove them.

No. He is unwilling to provide any evidence in support of his claims.

Yes. Lost on him is the fact that, if his claims were true, the evidence would have already been presented by PTP and Prachatai.

Yes. He's actually as stupid as he sounds.

I believe the lady bought those ugly flip flop from Chatuchak market, which is in BKK, the area WITH the SOE. So she should be put to jail for 90 days, lock in a dark and dam cell.

[TheyCallmeScooter]

I believe the lady bought those ugly flip flop from Chatuchak market, which is in BKK, the area WITH the SOE. So she should be put to jail for 90 days, lock in a dark and dam cell.

No.

This is a battle between the forces of Evil and the forces of...(not evil, maybe even) Good. Do not sink to their level.

You do not ban peaceful political expression, even if it is offensive to you. No matter if it is horrifically offensive. If it harms nobody physically, then it not only must be allowed to stand, their rights to offend you must be defended - even protected - by you.

Because if you do not defend their right to offend you, if you instead seek to silence their peaceful dissent, if you react disproportionately with physical deprivation of liberty or violence, you are merely sowing the seeds....that will grow into a sprawling forest of violent dissent.

Peaceful (no matter how offensive) = Good.

Violent (no matter how 'justified') = Bad.

And journalists like Pravit, and tabloid blogs like Prachatai, who consistently fabricate and skew and sculpt the truth into their preferred shape, to a point where it is no longer distinguishable from pure, unadulterated lying....must be allowed to continue to write their vitriol and spew freely. Until the minute they flirt with violence or inciting violence, them boom: SMASH THEM WITH EVERY ANTI-TERRORISM CHARGE IN THE BOOK.

[mca]

No-one is locked up for having an opinion.

May I humbly suggest you give the Lese Majeste laws a trial run then.

[thunder30101]

The saddest part of this continuing circus between the reds, yellows, army, police, bkk elites is watching the people on here from other countries who are educated and that do have a good criminal and civil law system defend any of those involved in this ridiculous destruction of a gov and its people. I think many of you are just as uneducated as the people you talk.

[orangezeke]

when animatic first asked me to post a link to the story he didn't say there was going to be so many clauses. now one original source is not enough ? since when ? how many will satisfy you ? i also replied to him:

you want me to find you links to the story ? i will. but first answer this in an effort to save my time. will it change your opinion ? or will you have your defense of this administration already in place ? if you were to read that a lady with bad taste was arrested under a law that is

obsolete

in ayudhaya would you question it ? if you heard abasit falsely say on the 24th of last month that no one is being detained any longer under these laws, when they are, would you hold him to account ?

i didn't hear him reply. i haven't heard you either. don't you think it fair that after my first effort i get something back from you first. answer the questions.

You ramble on and on, logic seems unnecessary.

No-one told you that more than one original source would be needed. Well sorry, if you can't figure that out yourself. And to answer your question, yes find more original source for the 'sandal lady', it would make the story more believable. An PTP MP is found to bail out the lady which would be unlikely on such short notice if the E.D. was invoked. How come no PTP MP's or red-shirt cry out for justice and drop a complaint at the various commissions or courts. Normally k. Jatuporn is really eager to sue.

'hear Abhisit falsely say' is nonsense. What he said on the 24th was true. The incident on the 3rd with the 'sandal lady' is still to be proven and if correct would be an error on the police side, not necessarily the government. Can you really tell when someone in Thai 'falsely' says something. Mind-reader?

As for getting something back, I wonder why I bother. You stick to your Prachatai fable and stop bothering more open-minded posters.

okay rubl. just remember that by asking for more than one source for every claim on this forum, you now set a precedent. i expect to see you now posting at least two sources. i expect to see you calling out the likes of way2muchcoffee and Buchholz to do the same. because to me, this exercise has simply been a case of 'i don't like what im reading so i better find an excuse to dismiss it.'

your second source:

http://www.khaosod.co.th/view_news.php?newsid=TUROd01ERXdOakExTVRBMU13PT0=&sectionid=TURNd01RPT0=&day=TWpBeE1DMHhNQzB3TlE9PQ==

i have to give a big shout out to morty who emailed it to me. thank you. i think he sent it because he is excited to see the reaction. i know i am. i expect i am now going to read something like the following.

wow, actually

she was detained

afterall. not only did i read one perfectly suitable article, but now a second one appears too. that means that these draconian laws really are being misused, as professor vivit warned. but if that is true, is it possible there really are political prisoners in thailand, held simply for their opinion ? and why did the PM say on the 24th september that these laws were not being used in this way ? was he lying or is he simply ignorant ? i should really have another think about this. maybe on this issue, i am going to find my own voice and maybe stop going with the crowd. maybe on this issue i am going to stand up for once and say i disagree with the current policy and i want to see some changes.

morty is holding his breath in anticipation. don't make him wait.

[orangezeke]

You don't address even a single issue in the article. Is k.Vivit wrong when he says 'the exception is now the rule'? Should those in prison be considered political prisoners?

In Ayutthaya a lady was arrested using these laws for selling flip flops with K.Abasits face on them. Under these laws she can be held for 30 days without charge.

This in a province where the emergency decree was supposed to have been lifted.

K.Niran said people have been jailed for thinking differently to the govt. Prove him wrong.

are you saying that thailand has laws allowing people to make money from a persons image without their consent? I don't think any country would have copyright laws allowing this?

i'm not saying that. you would have to ask a lawyer about copyright laws in thailand, i wouldn't have a clue. but that is not what she was charged with. she was charged for an offence under section 9(3) of the emergency decree which prohibits ‘press releases and distribution or dissemination of letters, publications or any means of communication containing texts which may instigate fear amongst the people or is intended to distort information which leads to a misunderstanding of the emergency situation to the extent of affecting the security of the state or public order or the good morals of the people either in the area or locality where an emergency situation has been declared or the entire Kingdom.’

[way2muchcoffee]

All you were asked to do was to provide one legitimate source. Khaosod is that source. Thank you.

To the particular case of the shoe lady then since we now can assume the incident actually occurred. The police made a mistake. They evidently arrested a woman based on a law that wasn't in force in that location. The woman was arrested and later bailed out. Presumably there is no legal case against her and it will be thrown out of court when the case reaches that stage.

It is important to note that she was not detained for 30 days as prescribed by the emergency law. This is not a case of abuse of the emergency law with government complicity. It is a case of low-level beat police officers making a mistake. Those officers should be advised of their mistake and have a formal reprimand placed in their files. Public apologies should be made. I doubt this will occur though as 'apologizing' for anything seems far removed from Thai culture.

Edited October 16, 2010 by way2muchcoffee

[rubl]

when animatic first asked me to post a link to the story he didn't say there was going to be so many clauses. now one original source is not enough ? since when ? how many will satisfy you ? i also replied to him:

you want me to find you links to the story ? i will. but first answer this in an effort to save my time. will it change your opinion ? or will you have your defense of this administration already in place ? if you were to read that a lady with bad taste was arrested under a law that is

obsolete

in ayudhaya would you question it ? if you heard abasit falsely say on the 24th of last month that no one is being detained any longer under these laws, when they are, would you hold him to account ?

i didn't hear him reply. i haven't heard you either. don't you think it fair that after my first effort i get something back from you first. answer the questions.

You ramble on and on, logic seems unnecessary.

No-one told you that more than one original source would be needed. Well sorry, if you can't figure that out yourself. And to answer your question, yes find more original source for the 'sandal lady', it would make the story more believable. An PTP MP is found to bail out the lady which would be unlikely on such short notice if the E.D. was invoked. How come no PTP MP's or red-shirt cry out for justice and drop a complaint at the various commissions or courts. Normally k. Jatuporn is really eager to sue.

'hear Abhisit falsely say' is nonsense. What he said on the 24th was true. The incident on the 3rd with the 'sandal lady' is still to be proven and if correct would be an error on the police side, not necessarily the government. Can you really tell when someone in Thai 'falsely' says something. Mind-reader?

As for getting something back, I wonder why I bother. You stick to your Prachatai fable and stop bothering more open-minded posters.

okay rubl. just remember that by asking for more than one source for every claim on this forum, you now set a precedent. i expect to see you now posting at least two sources. i expect to see you calling out the likes of way2muchcoffee and Buchholz to do the same. because to me, this exercise has simply been a case of 'i don't like what im reading so i better find an excuse to dismiss it.'

your second source:

http://www.khaosod.co.th/view_news.php?newsid=TUROd01ERXdOakExTVRBMU13PT0=&sectionid=TURNd01RPT0=&day=TWpBeE1DMHhNQzB3TlE9PQ==

i have to give a big shout out to morty who emailed it to me. thank you. i think he sent it because he is excited to see the reaction. i know i am. i expect i am now going to read something like the following.

wow, actually

she was detained

afterall. not only did i read one perfectly suitable article, but now a second one appears too. that means that these draconian laws really are being misused, as professor vivit warned. but if that is true, is it possible there really are political prisoners in thailand, held simply for their opinion ? and why did the PM say on the 24th september that these laws were not being used in this way ? was he lying or is he simply ignorant ? i should really have another think about this. maybe on this issue, i am going to find my own voice and maybe stop going with the crowd. maybe on this issue i am going to stand up for once and say i disagree with the current policy and i want to see some changes.

morty is holding his breath in anticipation. don't make him wait.

Sorry to have kept you waiting. If Morty really held his breath till now he might have a suitable red colored face

1. two articles on the 'sandal lady'

Prachatai lists the E.D. section 9(3), Khaosod not. My Thai is not good enough to get all details, but the Khaosod article gives lots of amounts.

Second also showns picture of sandals, in Thai culture definitely an anti-social gesture those sandals.

2. mis-use of E.D.

I still believe the police was overzealous, wait till I have a translation of Khasod article.

3. PM statement 24th of Sept

He meant what he said. It is not a lie all of a sudden because others make mistakes.

4. Follow-up

I am still mightely puzzled by the fact that there hasn't been an outcry by PTP and/or UDD / reds about this affair. Especially k. Jatuporn is normally the first to threaten the government. Somehow the story doesn't make sense with the details provided.

now I'm waiting for more info, but don't worry I won't hold my breath

Edited October 16, 2010 by rubl

[TheyCallmeScooter]

All you were asked to do was to provide one legitimate source. Khaosod is that source. Thank you.

I can't read Thai and know nothing about Khaosod apart from I can find on Google, where the English reviews seem pretty much in consensus that it's a "tabloid" and "sensationalist" and "anti-establishment". At the risk of appearing retarded due to flying blind, the Khaosod article is legitimate? My Thai friend seems to believe so, but then he believes everything in print - I could write up a press release that aliens had abducted Thaksin and were demanding a ransom and would happily lay even money wagers on his dismissing it out of hand.

If it's merely parroting Prachatai, lol @ orangezeke.

If it's legitimate, then....

It is important to note that she was not detained for 30 days as prescribed by the emergency law. This is not a case of abuse of the emergency law with government complicity. It is a case of low-level beat police officers making a mistake.

...so lol @ orangezeke. And I still would wonder why it is that Prachatai wouldn't scan her arrest paperwork which quotes the Emergency Decree violation and blast it in the public domain alongside the article...

...but perhaps I assume a level of intelligence in the Red Propaganda Network that does not exist.

[thequick7]

You don't address even a single issue in the article. Is k.Vivit wrong when he says 'the exception is now the rule'? Should those in prison be considered political prisoners?

In Ayutthaya a lady was arrested using these laws for selling flip flops with K.Abasits face on them. Under these laws she can be held for 30 days without charge.

This in a province where the emergency decree was supposed to have been lifted.

K.Niran said people have been jailed for thinking differently to the govt. Prove him wrong.

are you saying that thailand has laws allowing people to make money from a persons image without their consent? I don't think any country would have copyright laws allowing this?

No. He's claiming that the lady was arrested by police illegally. He's claiming her arrest was made by police citing an Emergency Decree which is not in effect in that province. He's demanding anyone who disagrees with his claims to disprove them.

No. He is unwilling to provide any evidence in support of his claims.

Yes. Lost on him is the fact that, if his claims were true, the evidence would have already been presented by PTP and Prachatai.

Yes. He's actually as stupid as he sounds.

yeah, i replied a bit too early... he did start to make more sense 3 pages later.

[thequick7]

I believe the lady bought those ugly flip flop from Chatuchak market, which is in BKK, the area WITH the SOE. So she should be put to jail for 90 days, lock in a dark and dam cell.

No.

This is a battle between the forces of Evil and the forces of...(not evil, maybe even) Good. Do not sink to their level.

You do not ban peaceful political expression, even if it is offensive to you. No matter if it is horrifically offensive. If it harms nobody physically, then it not only must be allowed to stand, their rights to offend you must be defended - even protected - by you.

Because if you do not defend their right to offend you, if you instead seek to silence their peaceful dissent, if you react disproportionately with physical deprivation of liberty or violence, you are merely sowing the seeds....that will grow into a sprawling forest of violent dissent.

Peaceful (no matter how offensive) = Good.

Violent (no matter how 'justified') = Bad.

And journalists like Pravit, and tabloid blogs like Prachatai, who consistently fabricate and skew and sculpt the truth into their preferred shape, to a point where it is no longer distinguishable from pure, unadulterated lying....must be allowed to continue to write their vitriol and spew freely. Until the minute they flirt with violence or inciting violence, them boom: SMASH THEM WITH EVERY ANTI-TERRORISM CHARGE IN THE BOOK.

I totally agree with ur point about peaceful political expression. although I understand that having someones face on that part of the shoe in thailand is offensive, thais still should have freedom of speech. western countries have been using offensive material forever when it comes to protesting against political parties... being offensive is a great way to get a point across, and its something that is not just confined to political issues, just think of the entertainment business (eg. madonna in the early 90's as one example). it dosen't matter that if you agree with what the red shirts are saying or not, they should have the right to say it peacefully.

I asked my thai gf what she thought about the incident and she was of the opinion that the police were right to do what they did and that many people she knew thought the same way, which i think is a real shame that they don't understand that they're giving away their right of expression when they accept actions of this kind by the police/government.

[thequick7]

You don't address even a single issue in the article. Is k.Vivit wrong when he says 'the exception is now the rule'? Should those in prison be considered political prisoners?

In Ayutthaya a lady was arrested using these laws for selling flip flops with K.Abasits face on them. Under these laws she can be held for 30 days without charge.

This in a province where the emergency decree was supposed to have been lifted.

K.Niran said people have been jailed for thinking differently to the govt. Prove him wrong.

are you saying that thailand has laws allowing people to make money from a persons image without their consent? I don't think any country would have copyright laws allowing this?

i'm not saying that. you would have to ask a lawyer about copyright laws in thailand, i wouldn't have a clue. but that is not what she was charged with. she was charged for an offence under section 9(3) of the emergency decree which prohibits 'press releases and distribution or dissemination of letters, publications or any means of communication containing texts which may instigate fear amongst the people or is intended to distort information which leads to a misunderstanding of the emergency situation to the extent of affecting the security of the state or public order or the good morals of the people either in the area or locality where an emergency situation has been declared or the entire Kingdom.'

yeah, sorry i read this comment before reading the following 3 pages to see where you sourced you opinion. It came across that you were making your own assumptions about the incident.

[phiphidon]

All you were asked to do was to provide one legitimate source. Khaosod is that source. Thank you.

I can't read Thai and know nothing about Khaosod apart from I can find on Google, where the English reviews seem pretty much in consensus that it's a "tabloid" and "sensationalist" and "anti-establishment". At the risk of appearing retarded due to flying blind, the Khaosod article is legitimate? My Thai friend seems to believe so, but then he believes everything in print - I could write up a press release that aliens had abducted Thaksin and were demanding a ransom and would happily lay even money wagers on his dismissing it out of hand.

If it's merely parroting Prachatai, lol @ orangezeke.

If it's legitimate, then....

It is important to note that she was not detained for 30 days as prescribed by the emergency law. This is not a case of abuse of the emergency law with government complicity. It is a case of low-level beat police officers making a mistake.

...so lol @ orangezeke. And I still would wonder why it is that Prachatai wouldn't scan her arrest paperwork which quotes the Emergency Decree violation and blast it in the public domain alongside the article...

...but perhaps I assume a level of intelligence in the Red Propaganda Network that does not exist.

I cannot read the Thai language either but I can google. Here is what I found at this site

http://thaiintellige...syetem-at-work/

For those of you who cannot be bothered to check out the link here it is in full;

The Following is from Prachathai:

"A flip-flop vendor has been further charged by Ayutthaya police for distorting facts about the killings at Ratchaprasong and offending traditional Thai morals for putting the faces of Abhisit and Suthep onher flip-flops.

Sombat Boon-ngam-anong, Amornwan, and a friend

On 11 Oct, Amornwan Charoenkij, 42, together with a lawyer and close friends, met Pol Maj Col Chakkraphan Thupatemi at Ayutthaya Police Station by appointment to hear a clarification of the charges against her.

Pol Maj Col Chakkraphan said that Amornwan's case had been vetted by a joint committee composed of various police commanders, because the case has attracted much public attention.

Pol Maj Col Chakkraphan informed Amornwan of additional charges that 'the message and images distort the facts and mislead the public to understand that Abhisit Vejjajiva and Suthep Thaugsuban have been involved in the killings at Ratchaprasong. Selling[the flip-flops] to demonstrators and others is considered to be dissemination. And putting the faces of individuals on flip-flops is considered not proper according to the traditional morals of the Thai people, violating the Emergency Decree.'

According to the police record, Amornwan was arrested at 6 pm on 3 Oct on the footpath of Sri Sanpetch Rd for selling flip-flops with the face of Deputy Prime Minister Suthep Thaugsubanprinted on the left sandal, and the face of Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva on the right, both displaying the message 'People died at Ratchaprasong'.

The police record says that Pol Maj Gen Jaruwat Waisaya, acting Commander of Ayutthaya police, ordered his subordinatesto buy the flip-flops from the vendor who offered to sell them 5 pairs for 100 baht. Pol Maj Gen Jaruwat brought the flip-flops to show to acting Commander of Provincial Police Region 1 Pol Maj Gen Sriwara Rangsitprahmkul,and they considered that the flips-flops were printed materials which contained messages which might cause panic or misunderstanding among the public about the emergency situation, affecting national security or the good moralsof the people, under the Emergency Decree and its derivative regulations issued on 7 April 2010.

So the suspect was arrested and the 5 pairs of flip-flops, together with a further 49 pairs in her possession, were confiscated as evidence.

When arrested, the suspect admitted that she had sold 5 pairs to the policemen, had bought the flip-flops from an unknown man at Ratchaprasong on 17 May, and had been selling themever since.

Amornwan continued to deny the charges, and wanted to testify in court.

She later said that some policemen had warned her against selling flip-flops at an upcoming event in Ayutthaya for fear of further legal hassles, and that low-ranking police hadto follow orders against their wishes.

She said that she didn't know what to do as it was her regular job. She did not gain much profit from selling 3 pairs for 100 baht, at a cost of 22-23 baht per pair, but shewanted people to buy them to wear at an affordable price.

After the news of her arrest, sale of the flip-flops has much increased.

She said that she liked police, and she always gave them extras when she sold the flip-flops at Ratchaprasong."

Quite a bit of information provided there which in defamation lawyer infested Thailand suggests some truth in the story.

Followed by this:

According to ASTV-Manager, National Human Rights Commissioner Paiboon Varahapaitoon says that putting the photos of individuals on flip-flopsfor sale was not proper, because Thai society places importance on hierarchy and decency, as well as human dignity which is guaranteed in the constitution. Such an act cannot be allowed, no matter whether the individualsin the photos are public figures or ordinary people, as it violates the rights of others.

He said that those who produced the flip-flops should consider other people's rights, because if their photos were put on flip-flopsby others, they would also be upset. The case of a vendor arrested by police in Ayutthaya has to proceed according to the law.

that again adds to the fact that this arrest actually happened. In essence she could have been arrested at Ratchaprasong for selling the flip flops if you agree that

" the flips-flops were printed materials which contained messages which might cause panic or misunderstanding among the public about the emergency situation, affecting national security or the good morals of the people, under the Emergency Decree and its derivative regulations issued on 7 April 2010."

However it appears that she was arrested in Ayutthaya where the Emergency Decree is not in place.

Which would seem pretty paranoid behaviour by the government / it's own police force, and yet again an example of double standards, cue photo of yellow shirt supporter and her goods at the occupation of Government House October 2008;

http://www.facebook....3&ref=fbx_album

No arrests there then, nothing.

[rubl]

begin removed ...

Which would seem pretty paranoid behaviour by the government / it's own police force, and yet again an example of double standards, cue photo of yellow shirt supporter and her goods at the occupation of Government House October 2008;

http://www.facebook....3&ref=fbx_album

No arrests there then, nothing.

In October 2008 we still had the brother-in-law of K. Thaksin as PM. You may wonder why he didn't act ? Probably too busy with 'bring Thaksin back' or the 'vote buying' scandal

[phiphidon]

begin removed ...

Which would seem pretty paranoid behaviour by the government / it's own police force, and yet again an example of double standards, cue photo of yellow shirt supporter and her goods at the occupation of Government House October 2008;

http://www.facebook....3&ref=fbx_album

No arrests there then, nothing.

In October 2008 we still had the brother-in-law of K. Thaksin as PM. You may wonder why he didn't act ? Probably too busy with 'bring Thaksin back' or the 'vote buying' scandal

I understood that we were talking about the truth or otherwise of the arrest, and the circumstances of that arrest, of the vendor taking place. I apologise for offering a "red" rag to the bull about the PAD vendor - seems you just couldn't resist. Again I apologise - it did not add anything to my point, or again, maybe it did.

[rubl]

begin removed ...

Which would seem pretty paranoid behaviour by the government / it's own police force, and yet again an example of double standards, cue photo of yellow shirt supporter and her goods at the occupation of Government House October 2008;

http://www.facebook....3&ref=fbx_album

No arrests there then, nothing.

In October 2008 we still had the brother-in-law of K. Thaksin as PM. You may wonder why he didn't act ? Probably too busy with 'bring Thaksin back' or the 'vote buying' scandal

I understood that we were talking about the truth or otherwise of the arrest, and the circumstances of that arrest, of the vendor taking place. I apologise for offering a "red" rag to the bull about the PAD vendor - seems you just couldn't resist. Again I apologise - it did not add anything to my point, or again, maybe it did.

Sorry, but some people like to say 'why didn't the government ...' when clearly talking about a red or yellow specific item.

As for the flipflops, very impolite in Thailand independent of who the image stands for. Thus to be condemned. In this country it easily becomes a criminal matter even without E.D.

Now we wait for the lady's court case to start. No doubt both prosecutors and defenders will have their say and we have to wait how things are judged. Remember just a few weeks ago k. Thaksin won a defamation case against k. Sondhi, under this government !

[phiphidon]

begin removed ...

Which would seem pretty paranoid behaviour by the government / it's own police force, and yet again an example of double standards, cue photo of yellow shirt supporter and her goods at the occupation of Government House October 2008;

http://www.facebook....3&ref=fbx_album

No arrests there then, nothing.

In October 2008 we still had the brother-in-law of K. Thaksin as PM. You may wonder why he didn't act ? Probably too busy with 'bring Thaksin back' or the 'vote buying' scandal

I understood that we were talking about the truth or otherwise of the arrest, and the circumstances of that arrest, of the vendor taking place. I apologise for offering a "red" rag to the bull about the PAD vendor - seems you just couldn't resist. Again I apologise - it did not add anything to my point, or again, maybe it did.

Sorry, but some people like to say 'why didn't the government ...' when clearly talking about a red or yellow specific item.

As for the flipflops, very impolite in Thailand independent of who the image stands for. Thus to be condemned. In this country it easily becomes a criminal matter even without E.D.

Now we wait for the lady's court case to start. No doubt both prosecutors and defenders will have their say and we have to wait how things are judged. Remember just a few weeks ago k. Thaksin won a defamation case against k. Sondhi, under this government !

Fair enough, just trying to calm down the hysteria a bit. Just seems strange that a court case should even be considered as the Police definition of the alleged offence would not constitute a case being heard if the offence allegedly was committed in a province where the Emergency Decree was not in effect. As for impoliteness, well maybe if that is an offence then refer back to said yellowshirt vendor. Takes me back to the Sex Pistols.

[rubl]

In October 2008 we still had the brother-in-law of K. Thaksin as PM. You may wonder why he didn't act ? Probably too busy with 'bring Thaksin back' or the 'vote buying' scandal

I understood that we were talking about the truth or otherwise of the arrest, and the circumstances of that arrest, of the vendor taking place. I apologise for offering a "red" rag to the bull about the PAD vendor - seems you just couldn't resist. Again I apologise - it did not add anything to my point, or again, maybe it did.

Sorry, but some people like to say 'why didn't the government ...' when clearly talking about a red or yellow specific item.

As for the flipflops, very impolite in Thailand independent of who the image stands for. Thus to be condemned. In this country it easily becomes a criminal matter even without E.D.

Now we wait for the lady's court case to start. No doubt both prosecutors and defenders will have their say and we have to wait how things are judged. Remember just a few weeks ago k. Thaksin won a defamation case against k. Sondhi, under this government !

Fair enough, just trying to calm down the hysteria a bit. Just seems strange that a court case should even be considered as the Police definition of the alleged offence would not constitute a case being heard if the offence allegedly was committed in a province where the Emergency Decree was not in effect. As for impoliteness, well maybe if that is an offence then refer back to said yellowshirt vendor. Takes me back to the Sex Pistols.

In my home country the Netherlands it is much easier to 'express' yourself without needing to check the law first if it's permisable. Same in many other countries. Thailand still has a while to go to reach that type of maturity. Mind you it's only a handful of decades ago that also in Europe you could be apprehended for 'defaming your betters'

[TheyCallmeScooter]

begin removed ...

Which would seem pretty paranoid behaviour by the government / it's own police force, and yet again an example of double standards, cue photo of yellow shirt supporter and her goods at the occupation of Government House October 2008;

http://www.facebook....3&ref=fbx_album

No arrests there then, nothing.

In October 2008 we still had the brother-in-law of K. Thaksin as PM. You may wonder why he didn't act ? Probably too busy with 'bring Thaksin back' or the 'vote buying' scandal

I understood that we were talking about the truth or otherwise of the arrest, and the circumstances of that arrest, of the vendor taking place. I apologise for offering a "red" rag to the bull about the PAD vendor - seems you just couldn't resist. Again I apologise - it did not add anything to my point, or again, maybe it did.

Well slap my face and call me Sally. An intelligent Red. After not more than a few donkeys with plungers taped to their snouts, have I actually come across the mythical unicorn for the first time?

If it all is on the up and up after all, definitely over-zealous policing. It's unfathomably wacky and obscure though, something about it strikes me as...'off'. How can this possibly be as it's presented? So it wasn't a hasty decision by two beat cops or anything silly like that. The commander of Ayutthaya sent his men to pick up some examples (so someone had reported it - either negatively...or administratively) - he peruses the examples, doesn't rush into anything, takes it to his Commander, they discuss it, agree on the matter, then proceed to arrest her without realising the Emergency Decree was not in effect in their province?

This is the 'totalitarian' State of Emergency Decree we're talking about right? The one Pravit claims the powers in control are bombing Bangkok to ensure they have an excuse to sustain this vice-like grip on the country via this Emergency Decree? And we're supposed to accept that seemingly careful and reasoned action by the Police Major General who is Commander of Ayutthaya police, and the Police Major General who is Commander of the entire region - were simply unaware that this 'totalitarian', 'repressive' decree wasn't even in existence whilst they were carefully assessing the matter? Before deciding to charge her illegally citing probably the most important Decree any police commander would be completely aware of in their province - when it was not in existence in their province?

How can we accept this chain of events as plausible?

This is either incompetence beyond the pale, or something isn't quite as it seems.

The police record says that Pol Maj Gen Jaruwat Waisaya, acting Commander of Ayutthaya police, ordered his subordinatesto buy the flip-flops from the vendor who offered to sell them 5 pairs for 100 baht. Pol Maj Gen Jaruwat brought the flip-flops to show to acting Commander of Provincial Police Region 1 Pol Maj Gen Sriwara Rangsitprahmkul,and they considered that the flips-flops were printed materials which contained messages which might cause panic or misunderstanding among the public about the emergency situation, affecting national security or the good moralsof the people, under the Emergency Decree and its derivative regulations issued on 7 April 2010.

[chantorn]

My boyfriend bough back a toilet roll printed with Bush face. Will this also be considered printed materials which contained messages which might cause panic or misunderstanding, affecting national security or the good morals of the people ?

Edited October 17, 2010 by chantorn

[Buchholz]

It really weakens the assessment put forth by the OP writer and academics when the last 80 posts basically boils down to a flip-flop seller being detained for a few hours.

If that's the most egregious mistake of the government in this nation of 68 million regarding the security laws, it would seem they're doing pretty good.

Where are all these other examples of "The exceptions are now the rule." ???

It would have appeared from the tone of the OP that there were dozens, if not hundreds.

Edited October 17, 2010 by Buchholz

[Thai at Heart]

Front page in the other paper.

Actually a good turn of humour in the article too.

[phiphidon]

It really weakens the assessment put forth by the OP writer and academics when the last 80 posts basically boils down to a flip-flop seller being detained for a few hours.

If that's the most egregious mistake of the government in this nation of 68 million regarding the security laws, it would seem they're doing pretty good.

Where are all these other examples of "The exceptions are now the rule." ???

It would have appeared from the tone of the OP that there were dozens, if not hundreds.

Well, as Monkfish tried to point out in another thread, there is the case of the homeless scavenger having his case dismissed after 5 months in prison. If it's taken 5 months for this case to appear there's a chance that others may follow. Despite assurances from some posters, the government and CRES that you have nothing to fear from the use of the Thai Security Laws if you're innocent, it appears that some people do indeed have cause to be fearful.

http://www.prachatai...t=Google+Reader

[chantorn]

It really weakens the assessment put forth by the OP writer and academics when the last 80 posts basically boils down to a flip-flop seller being detained for a few hours.

If that's the most egregious mistake of the government in this nation of 68 million regarding the security laws, it would seem they're doing pretty good.

Where are all these other examples of "The exceptions are now the rule." ???

It would have appeared from the tone of the OP that there were dozens, if not hundreds.

Well, as Monkfish tried to point out in another thread, there is the case of the homeless scavenger having his case dismissed after 5 months in prison. If it's taken 5 months for this case to appear there's a chance that others may follow. Despite assurances from some posters, the government and CRES that you have nothing to fear from the use of the Thai Security Laws if you're innocent, it appears that some people do indeed have cause to be fearful.

http://www.prachatai...t=Google+Reader

I am sure you will be very happy and proud of your government if they release you after been held in the prison for 5 months without even a compensation. Not to mention how many times you could have been raped with been held against your will.

[chantorn]

"Somphol, a homeless scavenger living near Hua Lamphong, was arrested on 16 May"

My English must be bad, but how can someone homeless live near Hua Lamphong?

"The date of the arrest as claimed by the military to be on the night of 15 May contradicted to the testimony of the defendant who said that he was arrested late in the morning of 16 May, and the court found that in the indictment the date had apparently been erased and changed."

Who do you think change it? Was he arrested on the 15th or 16th?

[TheyCallmeScooter]

there is the case of the homeless scavenger having his case dismissed after 5 months in prison. If it's taken 5 months for this case to appear there's a chance that others may follow. Despite assurances from some posters, the government and CRES that you have nothing to fear from the use of the Thai Security Laws if you're innocent, it appears that some people do indeed have cause to be fearful.

http://www.prachatai...glish/node/2116

In every country in the world, innocent people have cause to be fearful. Thailand does not have a monopoly on innocents unfairly imprisoned.

If your beef is with the length of time taken for the courts to clear this poor fellow, I don't think anyone would disagree 5 months is outrageous. But the length of time between Charge > Trial is a separate issue altogether and I don't think it has anything to do with the Emergency Decree?

A few observations, however:

1. There is a lady who appears rather guilty of the charges levelled against her years ago, and she is yet to face trial. She happens to be the Editor of a little propaganda website by the name of Prachatai. Perhaps you have heard of it? Then again, every time she's arrested jetting in and out of the country which is oppressing her, she's able to come up to B200,000 for bail.

It seems to me that the issue is whether or not you are wealthy enough to pay the bailiff. I'm going to go out on a limb and assume the homeless scavenger didn't have Prachatai money lying around. Perhaps he needed his own fund-raising website 555

2. Perhaps the 5 months between Charge > Trial would be considerably shortened if people stopped exploding bombs and clogging up the courts with their terrorism?

3. Whilst 5 months is infuriatingly unacceptable, at the very least he is alive. Unlike the 3000 extra-judicially executed by Thaksin's police.

[phiphidon]

there is the case of the homeless scavenger having his case dismissed after 5 months in prison. If it's taken 5 months for this case to appear there's a chance that others may follow. Despite assurances from some posters, the government and CRES that you have nothing to fear from the use of the Thai Security Laws if you're innocent, it appears that some people do indeed have cause to be fearful.

http://www.prachatai...glish/node/2116

In every country in the world, innocent people have cause to be fearful. Thailand does not have a monopoly on innocents unfairly imprisoned.

If your beef is with the length of time taken for the courts to clear this poor fellow, I don't think anyone would disagree 5 months is outrageous. But the length of time between Charge > Trial is a separate issue altogether and I don't think it has anything to do with the Emergency Decree?

A few observations, however:

1. There is a lady who appears rather guilty of the charges levelled against her years ago, and she is yet to face trial. She happens to be the Editor of a little propaganda website by the name of Prachatai. Perhaps you have heard of it? Then again, every time she's arrested jetting in and out of the country which is oppressing her, she's able to come up to B200,000 for bail.

It seems to me that the issue is whether or not you are wealthy enough to pay the bailiff. I'm going to go out on a limb and assume the homeless scavenger didn't have Prachatai money lying around. Perhaps he needed his own fund-raising website 555

2. Perhaps the 5 months between Charge > Trial would be considerably shortened if people stopped exploding bombs and clogging up the courts with their terrorism?

3. Whilst 5 months is infuriatingly unacceptable, at the very least he is alive. Unlike the 3000 extra-judicially executed by Thaksin's police.

Do you have a problem with the source being pratachai? If it wasn't for the "little propaganda website" I wouldn't be able to relate the story of the homeless man falsely imprisoned. Perhaps sites like that just ought to be banned? In the meantime I'll refer you to http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/413198-detained-thai-red-shirts-protesters-terrorists-citizens/ which may go some way to explaining why these people were "clogging up the courts with their terrorism".

[TheyCallmeScooter]

Do you have a problem with the source being pratachai?

Is that a serious question? Yes, I have a problem with any source who fabricates lies and presents them as 'news'. In my experience, those sources tend to be somewhat unreliable.

If it wasn't for the "little propaganda website" I wouldn't be able to relate the story of the homeless man falsely imprisoned.

Ah, but you missed my point. Which was, what is the point of your 'news' story? Justice was served in the end, it took an unacceptably long time. But that another issue and one that involves money. As I pointed out, with Jiranut's example.

Perhaps sites like that just ought to be banned?

They absolutely should not be banned. They should be viewed correctly, however. Something very similar to...

http://www.weeklyworldinquisitor.com

Those who quote 'evidence' from the two sites should be treated equally.