Paying Ni In Uk While Long Term In Thailand?

[90210]

Apologies if this is in the wrong forum. As a UK citizen if i was to live in thailand (at aged 50), not working but living off savings etc, not intending on returning to UK but who knows what may happen would it be advisable to continue paying voluntary NI contributions just in case I return to Uk at some later point and may want to draw pension etc? I think this is one of the legal type questions i will have to get sorted here before any final decision is taken but I just wondered if anyone does this?

[thai3]

I think you can miss up to 5 years contributions in total and you don't need to pay anyway now after the age of 60. How much does it cost? I recall a post from somebody who worked in the pensions place in newcastele I think, or somesuch dump! He recommended that you do not tell them you are living abroad but travelling abroad a lot. Don't know why that was though, maybe entitlement to heakth treatment?-peter

[Steve2UK]

This is a very interesting point - and not just from the pension point of view. I'm 55 and also thinking about if the worst should happen and I needed to return to the UK for extensive NHS treatment. Would I just be able to arrive and expect to get treatment irrespective of my NI contributions, residence abroad etc? Is there a cut-off point or threshold for these UK citizen entitlements?

Would really appreciate informed comments from those in the know.

[gerrryuk]

This is a very interesting point - and not just from the pension point of view. I'm 55 and also thinking about if the worst should happen and I needed to return to the UK for extensive NHS treatment. Would I just be able to arrive and expect to get treatment irrespective of my NI contributions, residence abroad etc? Is there a cut-off point or threshold for these UK citizen entitlements?

Would really appreciate informed comments from those in the know.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well the train robber came home and got free treatment, and he never paid a penny in NI contributions. When I eventually move to LOS I would expect to receive help with any health problems I may have, in this country of course...

[Nomad97]

To quote a letter I received from the Inland Revenue, "For Retirement Pension purposes your working life is 49 years and is counted from the start of the tax year in which you reach the age of 16 to the end of the tax year before you reach State Pension age. To get the full amount of Basic Pension you need to have paid or have been credited with enough full rate National Insurance (NI) contributions for 44 of those years." unquote.

I am 57, I live in Thailand with my Thai wife and I pay Voluntary Class 3 Contributions to preserve my basic UK pension rights. The State Pension is payable in Thailand although you will not benefit from annual rises linked to the cost of living while living in Thailand. Strictly speaking you are not eligible for free treatment on the National Health which is why I maintain a World-Wide Health Insurance Policy.

Cost versus benefit: Voluntary Class 3 contributions some 300 pounds per year, potential pay back in 7/8 years time some 5,000 pounds per year (at todays rate). Moreover, if you were to marry a Thai lady she would benefit from a 60% widow's pension when you die.

Is it worth having? I think it is, but each to their own particular circumstances.

[Thaipwriter]

Apologies if this is in the wrong forum. As a UK citizen if i was to live in thailand (at aged 50), not working but living off savings etc, not intending on returning to UK but who knows what may happen would it be advisable to continue paying voluntary NI contributions just in case I return to Uk at some later point and may want to draw pension etc? I think this is one of the legal type questions i will have to get sorted here before any final decision is taken but I just wondered if anyone does this?

This is a very good question, it was one that I asked myself before i came the LOS earlier this year, I'm only 36 though!!!

The feedback i got was very good from the inland revenue, they told me if i become a non resident ( and as such agree only to come back to UK for say 2x2 week holidays a year) i can pay Class 2 voluntary payments in arrears. In my case that equates to 109 GBP each year! payable at the end of each april. I was told that these payments will make each year "count" towards the total years i have paid.

Give them a call and discuss your circumstances they are very very helpful and do not come across as typical Tax Officers!!

Inland Revenue

Centre for non residents

Benton Park View

Newcastle

NE98 1ZZ

0191 203 7010

Hope this helps

Richard

[Thaipwriter]

This is a very interesting point - and not just from the pension point of view. I'm 55 and also thinking about if the worst should happen and I needed to return to the UK for extensive NHS treatment. Would I just be able to arrive and expect to get treatment irrespective of my NI contributions, residence abroad etc? Is there a cut-off point or threshold for these UK citizen entitlements?

Would really appreciate informed comments from those in the know.

The same answer applies to you steve!

There is a form called CF83 that i submitted, I think many people should have done this and did not?

do a google search for "inland revenue CF83"

or goto:

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/cnr/osc.htm

Dont worry about the NHS, at 55 i think you have sent them enough money over the years! and any case they would treat you first and ask questions later...by then you'll be back in Thailand!!

It begs the question whether you have adequate private healthcare here in Thailand???? you do dont you????

http://www.bupathailand.com/personal.asp#

[Nomad97]

Thanks Thaipwriter,

I am not sure the same applies to me. I am, and have been, 'Ordinarily Non-Resident' since July 1986 (nearly 20 years). Moreover, since 31 December 2002, I have been retired - not working. The NI 38 leaflet refers to 'Ordinarily Resident' and working for a living. I did question the IR this year where I fitted in for contribution purposes.

It is worth a follow-up letter from me to query the IR as their last reply avoided the question and only referred to Class 3 contributions. That said, there are significant tax advantages for being 'Ordinarily Non-Resident' that more than compensate for the higher Class 3 contributions.

As for healthcare, I have been with BUPA International for the better part of 20 years, now with BUPA Thailand for the past 3 years, and I have the Emerald level of protection.

[Nignoy]

Thanks Thaipwriter,

I am not sure the same applies to me.  I am, and have been, 'Ordinarily Non-Resident' since July 1986 (nearly 20 years).  Moreover, since 31 December 2002, I have been retired - not working. The NI 38 leaflet refers to 'Ordinarily Resident' and working for a living. I did question the IR this year where I fitted in for contribution purposes.

It is worth a follow-up letter from me to query the IR as their last reply avoided the question and only referred to Class 3 contributions.  That said, there are significant tax advantages for being 'Ordinarily Non-Resident' that more than compensate for the higher Class 3 contributions. 

As for healthcare, I have been with BUPA International for the better part of 20 years, now with BUPA Thailand for the past 3 years, and I have the Emerald level of protection. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Give Newcastle a ring, their overseas dept are brilliant, very helpful, and if your case is complicated theyassign you a case worker ,so you are always dealing with the same person, they havehelped my wife and I no end, best of luck, Nignoy

[sua yai]

A couple of friends went back to the UK earlier this year as one of them had some degenerative disease that they couldn't diagnose here.

He'd been in Thailand for 20 years, although occasionally back in the UK. Went they returned, both had been out of the country for 7 consequtive years and had real trouble getting any assistance from the NHS. They were told that there was some time limit of 5 years.

It's all sorted now, but it took a long time.

[thai3]

A couple of friends went back to the UK earlier this year as one of them had some degenerative disease that they couldn't diagnose here.

He'd been in Thailand for 20 years, although occasionally back in the UK. Went they returned, both had been out of the country for 7 consequtive years and had real trouble getting any assistance from the NHS. They were told that there was some time limit of 5 years.

It's all sorted now, but it took a long time.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

At the same time hundreds of NHS beds are occupied by foreigners who come here and misuse the service without ever paying. When was the last time you went to a UK hospital and they asked for your medical card? or any proof of status. It does not do to tell them the truth re your address, just keep a postal address here. Some good info in this thread.-peter

[lungbing]

Nomad97,

Our situations are very similar. I am 57 and live in Khon Kaen with my Thai wife and am retired and living on a pension from 25 years in a previous job.

Can you please tell me what are the significant tax advantages of being ordinarily non resident? I pay PAYE on my pension before it is credited to my UK bank account.

A second point, if I may, My wife will get a pension from my previous employment, but will she also get a UK widow's pension when I die if she is resident in Thailand? You mention a figure of 60%.

Thanks for your help,

Derek

[Nomad97]

Derek,

Firstly, I have been ordinarily non-resident since 1986. I worked overseas from from that date with a UK company and built-up a good pension before I retired 2 years ago. I did not return to the UK and continue to remain 'ordinarily non-resident' and, because the pension was earned overseas, the IR have declared that pension to be free of UK tax. I know of a good friend of mine, living in the Udon area, who also benefits in the same way with his 'overseas' pension. My personal tax code is offset against my other UK income (a second pension accrued from my time in the RAF) where tax is deducted at source.

Secondly, I did write to the IR earlier this year about the UK State Pension to obtain a forecast of benefits due at age 65 (and to check on my contributions to date). I advised them that I was married to a Thai lady and living permanently in Thailand. With respect to my wife they advised quote, "As my dependent, your wife is entitled to receive approximately 60% of your Basic Pension entitlement. This currently equates to PS 44.73 per week. Please note that should your wife have any Basic Pension entitlement in her own right, then she may not receive the full 60% of your Basic Pension" unquote.

Finally, after my death and in addition to the State Pension benefits, my wife would receive 50% widow's payments from my other two pensions. I am guessing that my wife being a Thai national, living in Thailand, would receive all three pensions free of UK tax. Presumably she would have to write to the IR to obtain this tax relief (after my death). Similarly, she would have to establish her liability for tax, if any, with the Thai authorities. Perhaps someone has investigated this situation and can advise further.

Hope this clarifies and helps your situation,

Steve.

[Steve2UK]

This is a very interesting point - and not just from the pension point of view. I'm 55 and also thinking about if the worst should happen and I needed to return to the UK for extensive NHS treatment. Would I just be able to arrive and expect to get treatment irrespective of my NI contributions, residence abroad etc? Is there a cut-off point or threshold for these UK citizen entitlements?

Would really appreciate informed comments from those in the know.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The same answer applies to you steve!

There is a form called CF83 that i submitted, I think many people should have done this and did not?

do a google search for "inland revenue CF83"

or goto:

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/cnr/osc.htm

Dont worry about the NHS, at 55 i think you have sent them enough money over the years! and any case they would treat you first and ask questions later...by then you'll be back in Thailand!!

It begs the question whether you have adequate private healthcare here in Thailand???? you do dont you????

http://www.bupathailand.com/personal.asp#

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks for the info, Thaipwriter. It's a mucky coincidence that CF83 is also part of an Inland Revenue postcode - so it took a while to plough through the many Google results . For those interested, the following direct links should help:

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/pdfs/nico/ni38.pdf [iR leaflet that contains form CF83]

http://www.thefrygroup.co.uk/docs/publications/taxni.pdf [private sector leaflet]

I'm still ploughing through all the bumph, but it looks like it relates mainly to NI contributions payable by those working abroad - presumably that's your situation? I'm intending to be retired in Thailand - even at 55 - so I'm still unclear about my situation. But I'll also talk to the people in Newcastle as you and Nignoy suggest.

Turning back to the NHS aspect, I'm far from encouraged by Sua Yai's anecdote and I'd still appreciate further input from those with first-hand experience of that situation - positive or negative.

At the moment, having looked carefully at the private health insurance options in Thailand, my strong instinct is that the premium cost (for a single 55+) versus the benefits payable is not a good ratio; on that basis, I'd expect to "self-insure" - i.e. maintain enough of a cash reserve to meet Thai treatment costs. In the event that the particular ill health circumstances proved major, I'd want to return to the UK - hence the question about NHS eligibility after x years absence. I suspect many older people already living in LOS are wondering the same.

[Thaipwriter]

Thanks for the info, Thaipwriter. It's a mucky coincidence that CF83 is also part of an Inland Revenue postcode - so it took a while to plough through the many Google results . For those interested, the following direct links should help:

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/pdfs/nico/ni38.pdf [iR leaflet that contains form CF83]

http://www.thefrygroup.co.uk/docs/publications/taxni.pdf [private sector leaflet]

I'm still ploughing through all the bumph, but it looks like it relates mainly to NI contributions payable by those working abroad - presumably that's your situation? I'm intending to be retired in Thailand - even at 55 - so I'm still unclear about my situation. But I'll also talk to the people in Newcastle as you and Nignoy suggest.

Turning back to the NHS aspect, I'm far from encouraged by Sua Yai's anecdote and I'd still appreciate further input from those with first-hand experience of that situation - positive or negative.

At the moment, having looked carefully at the private health insurance options in Thailand, my strong instinct is that the premium cost (for a single 55+) versus the benefits payable is not a good ratio; on that basis, I'd expect to "self-insure" - i.e. maintain enough of a cash reserve to meet Thai treatment costs. In the event that the particular ill health circumstances proved major, I'd want to return to the UK - hence the question about NHS eligibility after x years absence. I suspect many older people already living in LOS are wondering the same.

Somebody stated earlier in the thread that the 300 quid a year was well worth it if it means you get 5 grand a year in 10 years or so, thats the way i like to think about it too, but freeloading immigrants may have stripped the UK to the bare bones by then and state pension system may have imploded. who knows?????

I was told that i need to pay about 130 quid a year which will do me fine, I'm working in Thailand, but im not really earning special money or anything like that so the state pension will be a godsend if and when it kicks in! thats another 29 years in my case!!!!!

Talking about "self insuring" what if something like a stroke occurrs? you cant speak, or play any part in the decision making process about treatment, what happens then, the costs could be enourmous, what if you have to be flown back to England for care???? sorry to drop the morbid stuff on you but were miles from blighty and just about anything can happen here!!!!.... like you dont know already

[Guest endure]

If you go to www.gateway.gov.uk you can register and get an online pension forecast at any time.

[samran]

Somebody stated earlier in the thread that the 300 quid a year was well worth it if it means you get 5 grand a year in 10 years or so, thats the way i like to think about it too, but freeloading immigrants may have stripped the UK to the bare bones by then and state pension system may have imploded. who knows?????

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Go on, have an foreigner bash why don't you. Wouldn't want an ignorant 'line' get in the way of a fact or two.

The reason why the UK pension system will implode is that you fellas aren't re-producing fast enough. While some people may celebrate the fact that there will be less English on this planet in years to come, fact of the matter is your birth rate is too low.

That you have a shabby refugee and asylum screening policy means little to a pensions system that is decrepid and creaking and should have been reformed in the early 1980's. Franky speaking, England needs more young immigrants in who can be allowed to work so they can make the NI contributions to fund todays old codgers. Australia, Canada and the US realised this yonks ago and thus have forward looking immigration polices.

If the UK pesion system is going to implode, will do so due to good old inept English (mis)management.....nothing more, nothing less.

Edited August 2, 2005 by samran

[Rags]

I have been ordinarily non-resident from UK for over 10 years now, and have not continued with my NI contributions. My initial feeling was that the state pension would be worth next to nothing by the time I retire (in 25 years!), if of course it still exists at all...!!!

However many friends have now suggested that it is possible, and indeed a wise investment to pay the reduced contributions in arrears, in order to be included in a potential payoff should they actually cancel the whole state pension idea.

Still mulling this concept over. Any other views on the matter?

Rags

Edited August 3, 2005 by Rags

[lungbing]

Steve (Nomad97)

Thanks for your help.

My pension contributions were earned and paid in the UK tax free so I think I will have to pay the tax now as I draw the pension, and my resident or non-resident status of the UK has no bearing.

But I will try and confirm that my wife will get a portion of my basic pension when I die. We go for a holiday there in October so I'll be on the phone a bit, sorting out that and the Class 2 or 3 contributions I'll have to pay to bring my contribution years so far up to the 44 required for the full pension. I have a fair bit of SERPS to add on too.

What with that 44 quid plus half of my private pension I'll be worth more to her dead !

regards,

Derek

[Rags]

I have been ordinarily non-resident from UK for over 10 years now, and have not continued with my NI contributions.  My initial feeling was that the state pension would be worth next to nothing by the time I retire (in 25 years!), if of course it still exists at all...!!!

However many friends have now suggested that it is possible, and indeed a wise investment to pay the reduced contributions in arrears, in order to be included in a potential payoff should they actually cancel the whole state pension idea.

Still mulling this concept over.  Any other views on the matter?

Rags

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Does anyone have any experience or advice regarding the above query?

Rags

[taxexile]

not ordinarily resident status will give you some tax advantages , you can have interest on savings paid without deduction of any tax , and you are exempt from capital gains tax on most deals completed whilst non resident.

as far as paying ni , i stopped about two years ago , but intend to pay in arrears next trip back to the uk , the state pension system may be creaking and not worth much to uk residents , but if you maintain a uk address , even of a relative or friend , the pension will be index linked to inflation and worth more here than there , it all helps and who knows what sort of inflation thailand will suffer from in years to come.

the posters comment on the unfairness of the national health system that will treat illegal foriegners for free without daring to ask questions and yet turn away a uk national who chose to live abroad for a while is a very valid comment and of great concern to many british people.

The reason why the UK pension system will implode is that you fellas aren't re-producing fast enough. While some people may celebrate the fact that there will be less English on this planet in years to come, fact of the matter is your birth rate is too low.

That you have a shabby refugee and asylum screening policy means little to a pensions system that is decrepid and creaking and should have been reformed in the early 1980's. Franky speaking, England needs more young immigrants in who can be allowed to work so they can make the NI contributions to fund todays old codgers. Australia, Canada and the US realised this yonks ago and thus have forward looking immigration polices.

If the UK pesion system is going to implode, will do so due to good old inept English (mis)management.....nothing more, nothing less.

it is not at all difficult for foriegners to come to the uk legally , work and pay taxes , thousands come from the enlarged eu monthly , what we dont want or need are illegals and illegal asylums who are just a drain on the system , and very hard to legally remove , not so much due to uk ineptitude but due to eu legislation and the human rights laws , nor do we need a system that is run by politically correct mandarins and jobsworths who are scared to tackle the problem because of the ever present witch - hunt for racists that pervades every nook and cranny of employment in the uk.

its not just the uk pension system that will implode , the french and the germans are worried too about the future viability of their systems , their may be an element of mis management in the uk system , but for samran to take pot shots like that is unfair , ageing populations are not just a uk phenomenon.

most emigrants who look to europe for a future look to the uk , not to france , not to italy and not to germany , the uk has more opportunities ( and the best benefit system too) ,and believe it or not , the brits are the most welcoming of the europeans to foriegners , all that legislation hits the uk unfairly.

[tung tsz]

To quote a letter I received from the Inland Revenue, "For Retirement Pension purposes your working life is 49 years and is counted from the start of the tax year in which you reach the age of 16 to the end of the tax year before you reach State Pension age. To get the full amount of Basic Pension you need to have paid or have been credited with enough full rate National Insurance (NI) contributions for 44 of those years." unquote.

I am 57, I live in Thailand with my Thai wife and I pay Voluntary Class 3 Contributions to preserve my basic UK pension rights. The State Pension is payable in Thailand although you will not benefit from annual rises linked to the cost of living while living in Thailand.  Strictly speaking you are not eligible for free treatment on the National Health which is why I maintain a World-Wide Health Insurance Policy.

Cost versus benefit:  Voluntary Class 3 contributions some 300 pounds per year, potential pay back in 7/8 years time some 5,000 pounds per year (at todays rate).  Moreover, if you were to marry a Thai lady she would benefit from a 60% widow's pension when you die.

Is it worth having? I think it is, but each to their own particular circumstances.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I was told roughly the same as Nomad97

I left UK for 5 years before I even thought about N.I

When I contacted them they checked my history

and including college time they basically said it wasn't

worth my while contributing even if I tried to buy back

Its not on a like for like basis and you need the long service to get

the full whack

With my history they said I'd be lucky to get a 25% pension

if I contributed until the end of my working life

Advised me to get into a private pension plan

So I've been away for 30 yrs now

and no intention of going back now

tung tsz

[Nomad97]

I think I said earlier that I have been ordinarily non-resident for nearly 20 years. In other words I have been working, living and now retired outside of the UK for all of that time. I have met many friends through my travels and found quite a few have not bothered to maintain their UK pension contributions. Like Tung Tsz, no offence meant, they have done too little too late or in some cases have done nothing at all.

My advice is do not fall into this trap of living for today and forgetting about tomorrow. Many of my friends have made no provions for old age and cannot afford to retire, not even on the basic UK pension. They are doomed to continue working until they drop, quite literally. Therefore, if you have not made pension provisions think about it now. Even the UK basic pension is better than none at all. If its not too late it may well be worth your while to pay the arrears and pay sufficient contribuitions to have the basic pension. Moreover, you will leave a legacy to your wife, assuming you die before her, which in these parts of the world will be well worth having.

[Guest endure]

not ordinarily resident status will give you some tax advantages , you can have interest on savings paid without deduction of any tax , and you are exempt from capital gains tax on most deals completed whilst non resident.

as far as paying ni , i stopped about two years ago , but intend to pay in arrears next trip back to the uk , the state pension system may be creaking and not worth much to uk residents , but if you maintain a uk address , even of a relative or friend , the pension will be index linked to inflation and worth more here than there , it all helps and who knows what sort of inflation thailand will suffer from in years to come.

You need to be a bit careful about that. If they find out you're living in a country where index linking isn't allowed (and Thailand is one) they'll come after you for a refund. Goverment departments also share a lot more info nowadays so if you're non resident it's more likely that this will be noticed.

[Guest endure]

Cost versus benefit:  Voluntary Class 3 contributions some 300 pounds per year, potential pay back in 7/8 years time some 5,000 pounds per year (at todays rate).  Moreover, if you were to marry a Thai lady she would benefit from a 60% widow's pension when you die.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But it's not a simple pension/no pension situation. I'm 56 and have worked since I was 17. I very recently had a quote from the DWP. If I stop working tomorrow and move to Thailand I'll get £83 a week when I'm 65. Paying 9 years Class 3 will only increase it to £92.

[briley]

This thread is getting complex and covering a large number of areas,

To answer some of the points raised.

Current payment to get a years Class 3 national insurance is about £380 - you can pay back for 6 years, the last two years at the original rate for that year and the other 4 at the current, increased, rate.

You can also pay for the years 1996-2001 until about 2008 due to a computer glitch.

You must have paid 25% of your working life to get any pension, ie 25% of the pension. Working life is, as someone else said, a total of 45 years payment with one year off for good behaviour. If you are not working and resident in the UK you get 5 years free of charge for the years from age 59 to 64. Age 65 you get your pension and no payment is due.

As a married person you get a full single pension plus 60% of a single pension for your wife. She gets a full single pension when you die.

If you are not resident in the UK (or some other countries) you do not get any pension increase.

As this last rule is, IMHO, so blatently unfair I feel there is good reason to claim to live in the UK. So long as you have a UK address they can write to then your payments automatically go into your UK bank account and you get the pension increase.

Getting a UK pension does not get you access to the NHS, you have to be resident in the UK. This is checked when they ask who your NHS doctor is. If you haven't got one then you have to prove you are resident.

My personal opinion is that the UK pension scheme is worth making voluntary contributions to get a full pension. For current payment of £380 per year you get a pension of £135 or so a week (married pension). So ignoring increases (both contributions and pensions increase) you pay in about £15,000 over your lifetime and get back £7,000 a year, 2 years to pay back!

I would be interested in the class 2 payments that I believe you can pay instead of class 3, but believe you have to actual be self employed and earning something from some sort of job. If you can get Class 2 it is much cheaper than class 3 payments.