Betwen Black And White

[Thomas_Merton]

I accept the closing of a discussion I previously started. However, here is the gist of what I wrote, without any personal references to decisions made by admin (I have also read the guidelines and can see no reason why this subject cannot seriously be discussed).

Somewhere hidden in the clumsy attempts at self expression expressed elsewhere in this forum, can be found a nuance on the paedophile story that is always ignored by the hysterical "lock 'em up and kill 'em" types.

Paedophilia at it worst, as in the case of the sick Manchurian (and the even sicker) should always be condemned. But the modern witch hunts, often carried out here, seem not to be aware of the shades of paedophilia freely promoted and endorsed by our culture.

From "Alice in Wonderland" and "Peter Pan" to the films of the psychologist Brad Thompson. From Boy Scouts to the "Classroom" go go bars in Pattaya. That deep in the lust (meant in a Freudian way) of every man (animal) is the need to mate with the youngest and freshest. It is only a small perversion of this lust to include the pre-adolescent in these desires. Desires that perhaps, more often than not, are based in an expression of love.

We rail and scream against the paedophile as our forefathers did in 16th century against the so-called witches. How long will it be before we will see that most paedophiles' only crime is misguided love rather than an affinity with the devil?

But what about the children, you ask?

Quite rightly any crime of violence against a child should be severely punished. But the act of sex, mutually consented to? Are we only condemning this with such anger because we are still fettered by the puritanical restrictions of a Victorian age that hypocritically condemned all sexual acts as dirty?

[the gentleman]

The Manchester bloke was found with video of him having sex with 9-15 year old boys............. thats it! no fairy tale crap of Alice in Wonderland......... 42 years - not enough!

[taxexile]

. How long will it be before we will see that most paedophiles' only crime is misguided love rather than an affinity with the devil?

.But the act of sex, mutually consented to?

are you really serious??

where is the love? where is the consent?

it is domination and control over someone unable to understand the concept of consent, let alone have any grasp about the act of sex.

Desires that perhaps, more often than not, are based in an expression of love.

you sound like a pathetic apologist.

people who feel and act on the desires you talk about are a great danger to the innocent young, and, by their encouragement, the not so innocent young.

if it takes a 16th century witch - hunt to expose and lock up these characters, then so be it.

society needs protection from those who step outside (for whatever reasons) the bounds of "normal" behaviour.

and lusting after children, and acting on those lusts, is way outside those bounds of normality.

[SoCal]

What is this? Liberal free thinking run a muck?

There is nothing more precious, and fragile than a child. Further, there is no such thing as mutual consent because you gave the lad a lollypop, or used other coercive means.

My personal opinion is that flailing is too kind a punishment for this British guy.

If you are serious at all, and I see no reason you would even talk like this if you were not, then you better hope you never meet me, because I will kick the living crap put of you.

Sorry if this is not the intellectual debate you are looking for. If you want to take it as a threat, then so be it, because I have no problem being banned from a site that protects pedophiles and/or their views.

[Thomas_Merton]

...are you really serious??

where is the love? where is the consent?

*************

...society needs protection from those who step outside (for whatever reasons) the bounds of "normal" behaviour´.....

With respect to your point about consent:

The psychologist Brad Thompson who has studied a number of incest cases and other "suspect" relationships between fathers and their ca. 12 year old daughters, found that in a remarkably high proportion of these cases the seduction and first sexual contact came from behaviour exhibited by the daughter.

On the question of normality, behaviourists and Freudians would argue that it is perfectly normal for the male to seek union with the youngest and freshest of the females.

[SoCal]

Listen you perv. Why don't you and your boys (professor ...) from Nambla cawl back under the rock you came from.

If you consider this a troll, then you are wrong, because there are certain things in life that just aren't funny or amusing.

I'm leaving for BKK in four hours. Why don't you tell me who/where you are? I'll tear you in half, and gladly go spend my life in a Thai prison for getting a piece of human waste like you off the streets.

Go ahead and pm me, or crawl back under that rock.

[Thomas_Merton]

Sorry if this is not the intellectual debate you are looking for. If you want to take it as a threat, then so be it, because I have no problem being banned from a site that protects pedophiles and/or their views.

I would never dream of reporting you, as quite obviously your anger is a sign of some deep repression, possibly of a sexual nature.

I've been called a Catholic, a bible bashing Christian, a Sharon supporting Jew and anti-Arab, a winging Pom, a know-it-all Newbie, a jungle loving falang with no knowledge of the sophistication of the city, a wingnut (I like that one), a "hop in the Rolls darling let's go to Mass" uninitiate to the wisdom of the expats and now a paedophile (amongst other things) on this forum.

All this, because I have presented arguments on subjects on which you perhaps don't agree. Or, in the case of paedophilia, are afraid to think about.

So come on, keep coming after me, at least I’m listening.

[Thomas_Merton]

I'm leaving for BKK in four hours. Why don't you tell me who/where you are? I'll tear you in half, and gladly go spend my life in a Thai prison for getting a piece of human waste like you off the streets.

See you outside the World Trade Building at 00.00.00 on jan1st.

I'll have on a pink shirt and will be carrying a bag of lollipops. You'll easily see me 'cos I'm 2 meter high and weigh 124 kilos.

You can try and take one of my lollys, if you like.

[SoCal]

Overt Threat raising complaints from 2 members not associated with poster.

######

[taxexile]

"suspect" relationships between fathers and their ca. 12 year old daughters, found that in a remarkably high proportion of these cases the seduction and first sexual contact came from behaviour exhibited by the daughter.

On the question of normality, behaviourists and Freudians would argue that it is perfectly normal for the male to seek union with the youngest and freshest of the females.

if a 12 y.o daughter attempts to seduce her father and succeeds, does the father then become exonerated of any blame.

surely the duty of a father is to show the child what is right and what is wrong.

regarding social workers,psychiatrists,counsellors,behaviourists and all the other liberal minded inadequates who failed to get a proper job and go on to devote their lives meddling and trying to explain the actions of others, well, they should be locked up alongside the inadequates they purport to study. the world would be a better place without them and westerners would be mentally stronger and more secure without having to believe themselves as suffering from all the syndromes,conditions and psychoses dreamed up by these quacks.

getting a life is the surest way back to sanity for anyone who finds themselves temporarily off the rails. for those whose derailment is of a more permanent nature,well... if they present a danger to the rest of us...lock 'em up. if they present no danger.... well leave 'em to be. a degree of eccentricity is part and parcel of the human soup.

as for you merton. i cant make up my mind if you are just playing devils advocate or if you really are a complete fruitcake in need of a long rest and a good thumping.

[SoCal]

Real funny wise guy. I already told you that there is nothing funny about molesting children.

I'm off to the airport, so forgive me if I don't join you further in your folly.

Go ahead and pm me. I'd like to meet the guy that finds molestation not only permissible, but also funny.

[Thomas_Merton]

if a 12 y.o daughter attempts to seduce her father and succeeds, does the father then become exonerated of any blame.

surely the duty of a father is to show the child what is right and what is wrong.

regarding social workers,psychiatrists,counsellors,behaviourists and all the other liberal minded inadequates who failed to get a proper job and go on to devote their lives meddling and trying to explain the actions of others, well, they should be locked up alongside the inadequates they purport to study. the world would be a better place without them and westerners would be mentally stronger and more secure without having to believe themselves as suffering from all the syndromes,conditions and psychoses dreamed up by these quacks.

getting a life is the surest way back to sanity for anyone who finds themselves temporarily off the rails. for those whose derailment is of a more permanent nature,well... if they present a danger to the rest of us...lock 'em up. if they present no danger.... well leave 'em to be. a degree of eccentricity is part and parcel of the human soup.

as for you merton. i cant make up my mind if you are just playing devils advocate or if you really are a complete fruitcake in need of a long rest and a good thumping.

On the question of the thumping, you'll have to stand in line I'm afraid.

Good posting though.

[Thomas_Merton]

I'm off to the airport, so forgive me if I don't join you further in your folly.

Have a nice flight and don't forget to check their IDs first.

[FATBOYTHAI]

Thomas, do you have merely an academic interest in pedophilia, or is it something in which you dabble from time to time? When attempting to support your "devil's advocate" position perhaps you should not use discredited sources such as Freud.

[stumonster]

thomas merton you should not take the bait of those far ranging thinkers who threaten you with a kicking or a thumping if you wish to have a serious debate about something.

I do not take your statements as showing you to be an apologist for those type of people who prey on children, in either a sexual or psychological manner.

paedophillia is definately a serious subject, which as already evidenced gets people in an emotional state very quickly.

I do not support the exploitation of childeren in any way,shape or form, or the exploitation of anybody.

this is not the place if you wish to have a academic discussion about the human psyche.

I think advertising and marketing are the most pressing problems we have today.

People need to have a look at what is required to make them happy, and why.

and yes, the golden showers, a very recognised brand name across the globe.

[Thomas_Merton]

I think advertising and marketing are the most pressing problems we have today.

People need to have a  look at what is required to make them happy, and why.

and yes, the golden showers, a very recognised brand name across the globe.

I think you've probably said it all there.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Merton are you an educated Daveyo ?

[KevinN]

Where is all the folks that jump up and start crying about Thai tolerance when I post to something like this discussion,SoCal seems to be getting by with it and no one has called him on it.

The case of pedophiles will continue to get worse as the Tolerance and liberal freaks keep shouting.

As I stated before,this ###### was given 42 years because he had the proof on video and people were saying that there was no evidence again him,that the 42 years were to much,that we should show some tolerance,well I still say that 42 years is to short .

[Boo]

It is a known fact that young girls will use their male family members as a sounding board, if you like, for their budding sexuality. That means that they will overtly flirt with their fathers & see how far they can manipulate their male family with coy looks & flirty gestures. (This actually happens as early as 5-6 years old, but is just veiwed as cute by "normal" members of society) This is because these young girls know that they are safe to do this without the normal ramifications of doing it to a male stranger or boys her own age.

That is not an open invitation for the men to abuse or molest them but in most "normal" men, will be an amusing embarasment, that they fully understand & deal with in a corect manner. Thomas, as a woman, I fnd your original post insulting. To suggest that young girls, who are just discovering their sexuality, are "asking for it" is the ramblings of a sick mind.

Is my 5 year old neice "asking for it", when she blatently uses her power over her father & grandfather, to get her own way, or is she just being a normal 5 year old girl who knows that the 2 men in her life are wrapped around her little finger & with the right kind of cute look can get them to take her to the park, or buy her something?

Peodophillia is wrong, pure & simple. Yes, thes people may be sick & need counselling or whatever other treatments, the quacks & shrinks can think up, but ultimatly they are a danger to other children & should be locked away. Maybe for ever. That is up to the courts to decide. They have ultimatly broke the law, & in thailand, the law looks very strongly on this kind of crime committed by foreigners, so the English pervs sentance was just, in the eyes of Thai Law. England has a softer approach when it comes to these kind of people, but you know, I'm glad that when I have children, they will be raised in LOS & not in my home country where they happily release these "mentally sick" people after a few years without thought to the victims past & future.

Thailand may have it's faults but on this subject, they got it right.

[The_Moog]

Its just such a taboo issue, that its probably impossible to have any kind of exploratory debate on the subject.

Which is ironic, since it is a subject-du-jour, that - if you read the newspapers - (particularly the UK ones, which would lead you to think their are gangs of marauding paedophiles roaming the streets). The same newspapers incidentally that show photos of Russian lesbo-kiddy duet 'Tatu' snogging !

Not all that long ago (turn of the 20th Century), London and Paris had loads of child prostitutes. A ###### of a lot. Kids are far protected better there now, ......but not because of tabloid sensationalism, or because Pop Stars unmask themselves as victim or abuser.

Children need protecting. That's the job of a responsible society. I think it was the Chinese philosopher Mencius who said that any adult who rushes to stop a child wandering towards a bonfire shows some basic virtues of humanity.

MOOG

ps (Do any Brits out there have a DVD of the "Brass Eye" spoof documentary on this topic)

[The_Moog]

Without wishing to be seen as a hair-splitting paed-ant.....

Please note Merton, that the word 'is "Mancunian", not "Manchurian"

Manchurians come from Manchuria, in North East China.

Mancunians come from Manchester in North West England.

They sometimes call themselves "Mancs"...note, not "Manx"...which means from the Isle Of Man.

[Guest IT Manager]

Ok Guys.. Sorry just got here after 24 hours of not moderating. Still like it?

In fact the post saying it is topic du jour I agree with. Esp. after the deal with the Englishman.

Now in fairness, TM actually laid out in his first post, at least in my view, that he was devils advocating for a debate. Socal launched into a tirade of abuse which only served in my opinion to show he is a sheep short. Read the whole thing then open your mouth socal. ,makes you look at least red-necked in the worst case, somewhat twisted by needing the infliction of violence to show your "manhood".

I appreciate your note Kevin, and within the bounds of good sense, I will wade into it, and see where it goes.

Now.. do the moderators need wing clipping still?

IT

[pnustedt]

With respect to your point about consent:

The psychologist Brad Thompson who has studied a number of incest cases and other "suspect" relationships between fathers and their ca. 12 year old daughters, found that in a remarkably high proportion of these cases the seduction and first sexual contact came from behaviour exhibited by the daughter.

On the question of normality, behaviourists and Freudians would argue that it is perfectly normal for the male to seek union with the youngest and freshest of the females.

There is a legal age of consent. Sexual contact with anyone under that age is illegal. I also believe that it is disgusting.

Behaviourists and Freudians can argue what they want, it doesn't make them right.

You are abusing your apparent literary skills - there are probably paedophiles reading your posting and finding solace in your opinions - you are behaving very irresponsibily.

[Axel]

There are explanations for many things one's solicitor might try to put forward in court.

I do accept nearly everthing in a human relations ship. Pedophilia is unacceptable to me!. A 'consent' of a minor does not exist by law nor by common understanding.

Whoever might be interested in this discussion, theoretically or otherwise, get counseling before it is too late. Bangkok-prison inmates will not accept you as a buddy. One might rob a bank. I will not condone it, but would look for reasons.

On this board are many parents who, I am certain, will do anything to protect their children from any pedophiles.

And the law has a very long arm for these people. Think of the panist from Oriental Hotel, 2-3 yers ago, he escaped from Thailand, changed his appearance, returned here and is today in jail in the USA. Hopefully for a very long time.

Sorry, I just do not accept to endanger any child or minor.

[Guest IT Manager]

Sorry if this is not the intellectual debate you are looking for. If you want to take it as a threat, then so be it, because I have no problem being banned from a site that protects pedophiles and/or their views.

Socal there is no need to apologise about non-intellectual postings. We or at least most of us, are quite used to them.

I am not inclined to allow threats to go unrewarded here. It forms part of the TOS. I am inclined to let debate follow its' natural course, if it is reasoned debate and not red-necked hollerin' from down by the pigsty.

If you dislike an issue, don't read it. Simple. To say this site protects paeophiles is patent bullsh!t. It doesn't now, hasn't in the past and will not in the future as far as I am concerned. It will allow, however, debate on issues whch you may find confronting, distasteful or just plain baffling, which I believe will be most of them.

Enjoy your visit, then go home. Thailand is better off without your type.

[rabkk]

Are guys obsessed with bar girls because of their child-like size?

[Nat]

On the question of normality, behaviourists and Freudians would argue that it is perfectly normal for the male to seek union with the youngest and freshest of the females.

I apologise on my brief response, would like to explain these terms and perspectives in depth, however have to go to a xmas party (a thai one which will be interesting ).

Firstly, the "Behaviorists" are a branch of psychology who's main focus is the prediction and control of behaviour. They would not exactly argue that it is "normal" for a male to seek union with a younge female. They would more likely argue that this would occur if the individual has been conditioned to behaviour in this manner. As mentioned have to run so can not explain in detail how this conditioning would occur.

In regards to the "Freudians" (a psychoanalytic perspective), again they would not call this "normal". They would probably argue that the individual was fixated on one of the psychosexual stages of development - most probably the the phallic stage where the Oedipus (Electra for in women) complex is found.

Also, just defining normality could take quite some time (from a psychological and a sociological persepective). Have to run

[The_Moog]

Simply not feasible to get any kind of grip on this topic.

Its just too taboo. People go into manic defensive mode and what they say is just parroting some kind of inner altruism. Often the most indignant are the most vulnerable to temptation.

When presented with a foxy gamine, the id takes over.

I've witnessed it happen with a US acquaintance, an intelligent, educated man plenty of worthy thoughts on this exact subject, then when a 13 year old started groping him (this was not in Thailand), he was all smiles. After their subsequent short-time, he refused to acknowledge he had taken advantage of a kid. He got very irate if I suggested otherwise.

In the end, people who are interested in discussing it find they have to go 'underground'. In this way the problem perpetuates and becomes self-fulfilling.

The vicious circle cannot be broken.

I can see what Merton is trying to achieve, and it shows balls of granite !

[p1p]

Thanks to Boo for the post which expresses best the way I feel on this subject. As the father of a twelve year old, just pubescent girl, I am well used to her flirtatious ways and find, as Boo says, that she is exploring her developing sexuality with myself and her younger and older brothers.

This does not mean that I find her come-ons in any way a sexual invitation. I feel it is important to take them at face value, with understanding and not react.

Children will always try anything to get their way; from the crying of a baby, the terrible two tantrums and, yes, the flirtations of those a little bit older. As parents we simply have to recognise these things for what they are and try to keep control over the children, not spoil them and teach them the right way to live their lives.

[rabkk]

p1p, once I read an article about the way they want to dress. Some mothers were worried about some 12 year-old girls or younger looking like little prostitutes (their word) because they wanted to dress like Britney, etc... Do you have the same problem with her when it's time to choose clothes?