Thai army chief: Political gatherings banned during UN chief's visit

[bulmercke]

begin removed (long list of quotes) ...

All fair points and I fully understand.

Can't say I blame you for such reticence on this forum.

It is however a loss to ThaiVisa that intelligent debate and opinion would rather stay away.....................

It's becoming an ugly place.

It is a loss for TV if intelligent debate and opinion stays away, including those I don't agree with, but accept under the conditions philw stated. I have no problems with extremists of any colour, or trolls avoiding this forum.

PS philw, you may stay

rubl - we'll make a Red-Shirt of you yet.

Bit of a TV love in today. Must be something to this cooler air.

Did anyone see the Phayao red and yellows working together in the other paper today? It is infectious

hammered - you wouldn't be fantasizing - would you?

[hanuman1]

begin removed (long list of quotes) ...

All fair points and I fully understand.

Can't say I blame you for such reticence on this forum.

It is however a loss to ThaiVisa that intelligent debate and opinion would rather stay away.....................

It's becoming an ugly place.

It is a loss for TV if intelligent debate and opinion stays away, including those I don't agree with, but accept under the conditions philw stated. I have no problems with extremists of any colour, or trolls avoiding this forum.

PS philw, you may stay

rubl - we'll make a Red-Shirt of you yet.

Bit of a TV love in today. Must be something to this cooler air.

Did anyone see the Phayao red and yellows working together in the other paper today? It is infectious

I propose a red/yellow football match. Hostilities to be renewed thereafter.

[Thai at Heart]

begin removed (long list of quotes) ...

All fair points and I fully understand.

Can't say I blame you for such reticence on this forum.

It is however a loss to ThaiVisa that intelligent debate and opinion would rather stay away.....................

It's becoming an ugly place.

It is a loss for TV if intelligent debate and opinion stays away, including those I don't agree with, but accept under the conditions philw stated. I have no problems with extremists of any colour, or trolls avoiding this forum.

PS philw, you may stay

rubl - we'll make a Red-Shirt of you yet.

Bit of a TV love in today. Must be something to this cooler air.

Did anyone see the Phayao red and yellows working together in the other paper today? It is infectious

Does that make them the Orangemen? Shoot, that one is taken already.....

[rubl]

begin removed (long list of quotes) ...

All fair points and I fully understand.

Can't say I blame you for such reticence on this forum.

It is however a loss to ThaiVisa that intelligent debate and opinion would rather stay away.....................

It's becoming an ugly place.

It is a loss for TV if intelligent debate and opinion stays away, including those I don't agree with, but accept under the conditions philw stated. I have no problems with extremists of any colour, or trolls avoiding this forum.

PS philw, you may stay

rubl - we'll make a Red-Shirt of you yet.

Although almost nothing is impossible I sincerely doubt it.

In my closet I have 4 yellow shirts (compliment of the company and my (Thai) mother-in-law) and two pink (I bought). Still looking for blue, green and of course orange. I switched to pink when it became less fashionable to wear yellow. Advantage of these 'royal-emblemed' shirts is I can wear them to work, no need for dress-shirt and tie. Somehow I don't think I could go to Bangkok Bank's IT department wearing a red-shirt

In April -May I was wearing pink walking from BTS Saladaeng to RamaIV v.v. In April taking a motorcycle taxi to Chanchuri to do 90-day reporting I was wearing pink within a red-shirt tour of the city. There were some laughs and we smiled to each other.

Anyway philw may be a red-shirt supporter, but is mostly reasonable in his (often) short remarks. Fulfilling his own conditions on type of poster appreciated.

Edited October 30, 2010 by rubl

[hammered]

Did anyone see the Phayao red and yellows working together in the other paper today? It is infectious

hammered - you wouldn't be fantasizing - would you?

Best leave my fantasies out of this or I'll get excite

Seriously they were in a room together talking. Its near the back of the unmentionable news organ, picture and all.

Its been one of those enjoyable to exchange comments on here days without too much rancour. What is the world coming to?

[TAWP]

I post news and photos from sources that use real names and don't rely on coffee-table books about hookers to make ends meet.

And you edit them without informing your audience. That's one of the reasons why you kept getting banned from the Thai Visa forum.

AFAIK that isn't why SJ was banned. If you have proof, post it, but you are going into debating moderation of the forum and that isn't allowed.

[Buchholz]

If you are not, then I think you should consider assuming the personna of someone more spectacularly hansum.

I am deeply hurt by this comment!

Nick ,please tell the little Nazis on this board what really happened on the streets of Bangkok.

Is this request made because you are incapable of doing so yourself?

[Hitch22]

If you are not, then I think you should consider assuming the personna of someone more spectacularly hansum.

I am deeply hurt by this comment!

Nick ,please tell the little Nazis on this board what really happened on the streets of Bangkok.

Is this request made because you are incapable of doing so yourself?

If you had half a brain, you would have understood that I said that because Nick was one of the very few on this board to have been in the line of fire on the dangerous streets of Bangkok .

Ovbiusly this is too much asking from you .

[bulmercke]

If you are not, then I think you should consider assuming the personna of someone more spectacularly hansum.

I am deeply hurt by this comment!

Nick ,please tell the little Nazis on this board what really happened on the streets of Bangkok.

Is this request made because you are incapable of doing so yourself?

Buchholz - what about this for starters - Nick Nostitz again:

"The protesters moved the tires further along the road, in front of the Shell gas station near Soi Rang Naam. I positioned myself at the gas station as cover, in case the army would open fire. And straight away the army opened fire. Maybe 5 meters from me, on the road a small group of protesters was stuck behind the tires while bullets passed by. It made a sickening sound when bullets hit the protester who had just joked around with us – in the arm and in the stomach. A few protesters on our side tried to throw a rope over to pull the injured protester to us, but it did not work. The shooting never stopped. Another protester, who tried to crawl away, was hit in the leg and the shoulder. One guy managed to run over to us. I began losing any sense of time. One more of the group managed to cross over to us. Another guy was hit in the arm. After a while the two lightly injured guys ran over to us, one of them falling and crawling into safety. I feared he was hit again."

This is great reporting. A first hand account of what really happened. Truly unique.

[Buchholz]

I am deeply hurt by this comment!

Nick ,please tell the little Nazis on this board what really happened on the streets of Bangkok.

Is this request made because you are incapable of doing so yourself?

If you had half a brain, you would have understood that I said that because Nick was one of the very few on this board to have been in the line of fire on the dangerous streets of Bangkok .

Ovbiusly this is too much asking from you .

So that's a yes, then.

This forum is full of people who were here at the time. Many others have read his accounts and felt them biased, the same of which could be said for reports from a number of the other reporters present. If you are unable to share your own issues and opinions in the forum, that's fine, but don't think that just because you might not have been here or that you have not read accounts from the many people that were present at various locations or events, that other posters are in the same situation as yourself.

Edited October 30, 2010 by Buchholz

[TAWP]

Hit with rubber bullets? Sounds like it since the wounded people are only 'lightly injured' [sic] and still manages to perform.

Edited October 30, 2010 by TAWP

[Insight]

"The protesters moved the tires further along the road, in front of the Shell gas station near Soi Rang Naam. I positioned myself at the gas station as cover, in case the army would open fire. And straight away the army opened fire. Maybe 5 meters from me, on the road a small group of protesters was stuck behind the tires while bullets passed by. It made a sickening sound when bullets hit the protester who had just joked around with us – in the arm and in the stomach. A few protesters on our side tried to throw a rope over to pull the injured protester to us, but it did not work. The shooting never stopped. Another protester, who tried to crawl away, was hit in the leg and the shoulder. One guy managed to run over to us. I began losing any sense of time. One more of the group managed to cross over to us. Another guy was hit in the arm. After a while the two lightly injured guys ran over to us, one of them falling and crawling into safety. I feared he was hit again."

This is great reporting. A first hand account of what really happened. Truly unique.

Yep, and every single protester Nick has reported on being embedded with the protesters at all times was completely unarmed.

Cynic? Yes, definitely. But point scoring - not really, given that even the much-condemned Dan Rivers eventually got hold of some footage of armed red shirts.

[philw]

begin removed (long list of quotes) ...

All fair points and I fully understand.

Can't say I blame you for such reticence on this forum.

It is however a loss to ThaiVisa that intelligent debate and opinion would rather stay away.....................

It's becoming an ugly place.

It is a loss for TV if intelligent debate and opinion stays away, including those I don't agree with, but accept under the conditions philw stated. I have no problems with extremists of any colour, or trolls avoiding this forum.

PS philw, you may stay

rubl - we'll make a Red-Shirt of you yet.

Although almost nothing is impossible I sincerely doubt it.

In my closet I have 4 yellow shirts (compliment of the company and my (Thai) mother-in-law) and two pink (I bought). Still looking for blue, green and of course orange. I switched to pink when it became less fashionable to wear yellow. Advantage of these 'royal-emblemed' shirts is I can wear them to work, no need for dress-shirt and tie. Somehow I don't think I could go to Bangkok Bank's IT department wearing a red-shirt

In April -May I was wearing pink walking from BTS Saladaeng to RamaIV v.v. In April taking a motorcycle taxi to Chanchuri to do 90-day reporting I was wearing pink within a red-shirt tour of the city. There were some laughs and we smiled to each other.

Anyway philw may be a red-shirt supporter, but is mostly reasonable in his (often) short remarks. Fulfilling his own conditions on type of poster appreciated.

Actually I am neither a red shirt supporter nor fan of Thaksin, who I detest.

i do like the truth though.

[rubl]

begin removed (many quotes) ...

Buchholz - what about this for starters - Nick Nostitz again:

"The protesters moved the tires further along the road, in front of the Shell gas station near Soi Rang Naam. I positioned myself at the gas station as cover, in case the army would open fire. And straight away the army opened fire. Maybe 5 meters from me, on the road a small group of protesters was stuck behind the tires while bullets passed by. It made a sickening sound when bullets hit the protester who had just joked around with us � in the arm and in the stomach. A few protesters on our side tried to throw a rope over to pull the injured protester to us, but it did not work. The shooting never stopped. Another protester, who tried to crawl away, was hit in the leg and the shoulder. One guy managed to run over to us. I began losing any sense of time. One more of the group managed to cross over to us. Another guy was hit in the arm. After a while the two lightly injured guys ran over to us, one of them falling and crawling into safety. I feared he was hit again."

This is great reporting. A first hand account of what really happened. Truly unique.

On the 15th of april Nick also said this:

"At the first site of the clashes – at Khok Wua intersection and Thanon Thanao, a similar picture of destruction, just without the tanks and humvees. I found again many bullet holes, mostly from the direction of the army towards the protesters, but here also from the direction of the protesters, assumed to be fired by the now infamous black dressed group of fighters."

PS for link see my reply #351

(edit: add PS)

Edited October 30, 2010 by rubl

[jayboy]

This forum is full of people who were here at the time. Many others have read his accounts and felt them biased, the same of which could be said for reports from a number of the other reporters present.

Any mainstream international reporters you care to name that weren't biased?

[rubl]

Although almost nothing is impossible I sincerely doubt it.

In my closet I have 4 yellow shirts (compliment of the company and my (Thai) mother-in-law) and two pink (I bought). Still looking for blue, green and of course orange. I switched to pink when it became less fashionable to wear yellow. Advantage of these 'royal-emblemed' shirts is I can wear them to work, no need for dress-shirt and tie. Somehow I don't think I could go to Bangkok Bank's IT department wearing a red-shirt

In April -May I was wearing pink walking from BTS Saladaeng to RamaIV v.v. In April taking a motorcycle taxi to Chanchuri to do 90-day reporting I was wearing pink within a red-shirt tour of the city. There were some laughs and we smiled to each other.

Anyway philw may be a red-shirt supporter, but is mostly reasonable in his (often) short remarks. Fulfilling his own conditions on type of poster appreciated.

Actually I am neither a red shirt supporter nor fan of Thaksin, who I detest.

i do like the truth though.

Well, that makes at least two then, on both counts

[Insight]

One more thing on Nick's article quoted by Bulmercke:

The protesters moved the tires further along the road, in front of the Shell gas station near Soi Rang Naam. I positioned myself at the gas station as cover, in case the army would open fire. And straight away the army opened fire.

If the army did fire on unarmed protesters who were not posing a real threat then obviously that should be condemned. However given the events of Songkran in 2009 alone, (regardless of who you blame for it) who would not feel just a little bit jumpy if red shirt protesters started rolling tyres in front of a petrol station...? Note that something also occurred to Nick in order for him to at this point anticipate gun shots and take cover himself.

Please also note the tone of my posts here. I'm not scoring points, just highlighting what I read.

[Buchholz]

This forum is full of people who were here at the time. Many others have read his accounts and felt them biased, the same of which could be said for reports from a number of the other reporters present.

Any mainstream international reporters you care to name that weren't biased?

I think Anasuya Sanyal's reports for Channel News Asia were and continue to be less biased and more accurate than most.

[nicknostitz]

... every single protester Nick has reported on being embedded with the protesters at all times was completely unarmed.

That is absolutely wrong. These are one of the ill informed comments that piss me off, because they are a complete misrepresentation of my work.

Read my book - i wrote about red and yellow violence, there are photos of Yellow Shirts that were caught with guns, and there is a photo with a Red Shirt protester with a shotgun (in Vibhavadi Soi 3, right after the PAD attack on the Community Radio Station). There are images as well of Red Shirts wielding sticks and iron bars on the way to attack the PAD at Government House in September 2008.

My next volume, covering January 2009 to October 2009, including the Songkran rioting, there are descriptions of violence, and they include also more information that i gathered after i wrote my first article.

If you go to the article on the killing zone in New Mandala, and look at comment no. 70 - you can see that i have shortly written about a brief encounter with the militants in the Red Shirt camp on the night of the 14th, and was one of the first journalists that has done so during the fighting of the 13th to the 19th. Most journalists indeed have not seen them working - most of the time the militants only worked in darkness, and on the most dangerous front lines.

At the time i haven't written much as i was far too busy on the streets to think about writing articles, the only day i took off was the 16th, when i needed to get over the shock.

I have introduced my question to the PM during the press conference right after the dispersal with the sentence that i do not judge the Red Shirts as entirely peaceful protesters because of the so called "Men in Black", but... and then asked about the cases where soldiers have clearly violated their rules of engagement, and have shot and killed unarmed protesters. The PM answered me, after a bit of hesitation that i should then be available as a witness, to which i have said that i will be. This is all on the record.

And i would suggest to wait with judging my work on the recent events until i have actually written about them in full and in context. This will be in the form of a book.

But - i have never, at any time, ever, denied that there were armed militants under the Red Shirts. Therefore i would ask you to retract that statement of yours here.

Thank you.

[nicknostitz]

Hit with rubber bullets? Sounds like it since the wounded people are only 'lightly injured' [sic] and still manages to perform.

No rubber bullets that day - only real bullets, and no warning shots in the air.

Lightly injured meant that they were still able to get away and survived without too much damage - one man was shot in the arm - you can see the blood in one of the photos, and the other was grazed on the leg, and on the shoulder - you can see the shoulder wound in one of the images. Channarong Ponsrila was not so lucky, he received two wounds, one in the arm that shattered the bones, and the other a Nato round (the bullet is part of the evidence), that ripped his intestines apart, and from which he died.

[animatic]

You have 20 minutes to edit your posts.

Anyone is free to edit their own posts in that time limit.

Some things are not obvious in the 1st write up,

so editing after seeing software formatting issues and such

is perfectly normal for the conscientious writer.

I have no problem with those that edit their posts,

because after 20 minutes it is written in stone.

I have issue with those that intentionally and chronically

post unsubstantiated commentary as if it were fact

and not commentary or supposition.

I also take issue with those that post clearly modified videos,

that are labeled to say one thing, but no substantiated by

anything beyond the posters repeated rants that this is true.

Even in the face of unedited ones put up to refute them.

Of course the chronic 'attack trolls' are a pain in the rhoids too.

They take a potential intelligent conversation between those who disagree

and purposely turn it from the point of discussion into a shouting match

for personal gamesmanship and gaining some weirdly useless sense of self worth.

People with this mindset are a waste of bandwidth.

[jdinasia]

This forum is full of people who were here at the time. Many others have read his accounts and felt them biased, the same of which could be said for reports from a number of the other reporters present.

Any mainstream international reporters you care to name that weren't biased?

I think Anasuya Sanyal's reports for Channel News Asia were and continue to be less biased and more accurate than most.

Al Jazeera did a great job. One minor screw up when the American reporter stated that the Dems were not elected, and even Sean B had to admit that they were.

[Insight]

... every single protester Nick has reported on being embedded with the protesters at all times was completely unarmed.

That is absolutely wrong. These are one of the ill informed comments that piss me off, because they are a complete misrepresentation of my work.

Read my book - i wrote about red and yellow violence, there are photos of Yellow Shirts that were caught with guns, and there is a photo with a Red Shirt protester with a shotgun (in Vibhavadi Soi 3, right after the PAD attack on the Community Radio Station). There are images as well of Red Shirts wielding sticks and iron bars on the way to attack the PAD at Government House in September 2008.

My next volume, covering January 2009 to October 2009, including the Songkran rioting, there are descriptions of violence, and they include also more information that i gathered after i wrote my first article.

If you go to the article on the killing zone in New Mandala, and look at comment no. 70 - you can see that i have shortly written about a brief encounter with the militants in the Red Shirt camp on the night of the 14th, and was one of the first journalists that has done so during the fighting of the 13th to the 19th. Most journalists indeed have not seen them working - most of the time the militants only worked in darkness, and on the most dangerous front lines.

At the time i haven't written much as i was far too busy on the streets to think about writing articles, the only day i took off was the 16th, when i needed to get over the shock.

I have introduced my question to the PM during the press conference right after the dispersal with the sentence that i do not judge the Red Shirts as entirely peaceful protesters because of the so called "Men in Black", but... and then asked about the cases where soldiers have clearly violated their rules of engagement, and have shot and killed unarmed protesters. The PM answered me, after a bit of hesitation that i should then be available as a witness, to which i have said that i will be. This is all on the record.

And i would suggest to wait with judging my work on the recent events until i have actually written about them in full and in context. This will be in the form of a book.

But - i have never, at any time, ever, denied that there were armed militants under the Red Shirts. Therefore i would ask you to retract that statement of yours here.

Thank you.

Statement retracted - my apologies. I've gave your work passing glances since the Thaksin petition article, but not a thorough read as I clearly should.

However I would like to ask one thing - Have you ever (convincingly) seen the military use laser spotters when targeting the protesters, as in shone out from military barracks?

[nicknostitz]

Statement retracted - my apologies. I've gave your work passing glances since the Thaksin petition article, but not a thorough read as I clearly should.

However I would like to ask one thing - Have you ever (convincingly) seen the military use laser spotters when targeting the protesters, as in shone out from military barracks?

Thanks a lot

There was a lot of gunfire, but I have not noticed laser spotters. But that does not mean that there wasn't any. But after the first two days of the fighting i stayed far away from the front lines at night - it was just too dangerous, and almost impossible to take pictures as we could not use a flash, for obvious reasons.

[bulmercke]

I took these two pictures on 15 May 2010 at Din Daeng at around 12.00 noon. A live fire zone. The poor unfortunate young man died right in front of me.

[rubl]

I took these two pictures on 15 May 2010 at Din Daeng at around 12.00 noon. A live fire zone. The poor unfortunate young man died right in front of me.

Not sure I get your point. The young man in the second photo I can't find in the first ? Also first time I see you write 'I' took these photo's.

Apart from that, I seldomly like to accuse someone of stating something which is probably not true.

More details and proof please

PS I remember our discussion on 'thousands of rounds fired into the protesters', so please this time real proof

Edited October 30, 2010 by rubl

[Siam Simon]

I've sometimes considered linking to Nick's writings and photos in the past, but I always backed off because I just knew what the response would be from certain posters. Now Nick has started posting, some (but not all) of the usual suspects have popped up to try to discredit him: Sriracha John is flailing away furiously (of course) but mostly tying himself up in knots rather comically; others are sniping in a fairly timid way. But, because Nick is here posting and being remarkably patient with his detractors, said detractors are finding it difficult to be full-on in the way that they have been with journalists not present on TV. I suspect some of them are privately seething. Like I mentioned before, I hope Nick sticks around. TV needs posters like him to restore some balance to it's political discussions.

Insight,

Aw, diddums? Not much fun when a bully gets bullied, is it?

Hammered,

Great reply to Hanuman1's post. I suspect many of us on here are not too far apart with our interpretations of the various political shenanigans.

[monkfish]

Statement retracted - my apologies. I've gave your work passing glances since the Thaksin petition article, but not a thorough read as I clearly should.

However I would like to ask one thing - Have you ever (convincingly) seen the military use laser spotters when targeting the protesters, as in shone out from military barracks?

Thanks a lot

There was a lot of gunfire, but I have not noticed laser spotters. But that does not mean that there wasn't any. But after the first two days of the fighting i stayed far away from the front lines at night - it was just too dangerous, and almost impossible to take pictures as we could not use a flash, for obvious reasons.

Nick did I here Mr Plywood insinuate your skin wasn't thick enough? I reckon a foreign journalist trying to report the truth in Thailand needs Rhino Skin.

Keep up the great work! Only the truth will ever heal Thailand!!

and take care may be even invest in some bullet proof Skin.

Edited October 30, 2010 by monkfish

[philw]

... every single protester Nick has reported on being embedded with the protesters at all times was completely unarmed.

That is absolutely wrong. These are one of the ill informed comments that piss me off, because they are a complete misrepresentation of my work.

Read my book - i wrote about red and yellow violence, there are photos of Yellow Shirts that were caught with guns, and there is a photo with a Red Shirt protester with a shotgun (in Vibhavadi Soi 3, right after the PAD attack on the Community Radio Station). There are images as well of Red Shirts wielding sticks and iron bars on the way to attack the PAD at Government House in September 2008.

My next volume, covering January 2009 to October 2009, including the Songkran rioting, there are descriptions of violence, and they include also more information that i gathered after i wrote my first article.

If you go to the article on the killing zone in New Mandala, and look at comment no. 70 - you can see that i have shortly written about a brief encounter with the militants in the Red Shirt camp on the night of the 14th, and was one of the first journalists that has done so during the fighting of the 13th to the 19th. Most journalists indeed have not seen them working - most of the time the militants only worked in darkness, and on the most dangerous front lines.

At the time i haven't written much as i was far too busy on the streets to think about writing articles, the only day i took off was the 16th, when i needed to get over the shock.

I have introduced my question to the PM during the press conference right after the dispersal with the sentence that i do not judge the Red Shirts as entirely peaceful protesters because of the so called "Men in Black", but... and then asked about the cases where soldiers have clearly violated their rules of engagement, and have shot and killed unarmed protesters. The PM answered me, after a bit of hesitation that i should then be available as a witness, to which i have said that i will be. This is all on the record.

And i would suggest to wait with judging my work on the recent events until i have actually written about them in full and in context. This will be in the form of a book.

But - i have never, at any time, ever, denied that there were armed militants under the Red Shirts. Therefore i would ask you to retract that statement of yours here.

Thank you.

Great stuff man.

[philw]

I've sometimes considered linking to Nick's writings and photos in the past, but I always backed off because I just knew what the response would be from certain posters. Now Nick has started posting, some (but not all) of the usual suspects have popped up to try to discredit him: Sriracha John is flailing away furiously (of course) but mostly tying himself up in knots rather comically; others are sniping in a fairly timid way. But, because Nick is here posting and being remarkably patient with his detractors, said detractors are finding it difficult to be full-on in the way that they have been with journalists not present on TV. I suspect some of them are privately seething. Like I mentioned before, I hope Nick sticks around. TV needs posters like him to restore some balance to it's political discussions.

Insight,

Aw, diddums? Not much fun when a bully gets bullied, is it?

Hammered,

Great reply to Hanuman1's post. I suspect many of us on here are not too far apart with our interpretations of the various political shenanigans.

More good stuff.