Thai army chief: Political gatherings banned during UN chief's visit

[bulmercke]

No, I don't - but I can see how they became more radicalised and militant. The shooting dead of protesters by the army - at least eight - last April 2009 at Din Daeng didn't help matters much either.

At least 8? Please document this from ANY credible source. I understand you to mean Songkran 2009 when they rioted, threatened to blow up a housing block, destroyed busses etc .... but somehow I don't remember 8 dead. I know that Thaksin and the reds claimed 100's but that was clearly rebuffed. When did the number become 8?

The reds were radicalized in 2008 with Seh Daeng's "grenade throwing dance".

Why are you so untrusting about this matter? Well - I know why. I mentioned earlier in this thread my reasons for believing this figure to be correct if you care to take the time to verify.

Which is why I asked for ANY credible source. Your individual claim isn't credible. It doesn't match what ANY report that I saw in the English language or Thai press said. Not even Voice of Taksin (not credible) or DTV made this claim.

The media here exercise self-censorship so -of course - they're not going to even broach the subject.

And if we want to be pedantic I could challenge your claim: "Not even Voice of Taksin (not credible) or DTV made this claim." Source?

[rubl]

Actually - I saw with my own eyes and listened to these peoples' pleads for this news to get out. Remember this was before the events of this year - when in April 2009 the general populace though it inconceivable that their own military could open fire on its own people. But it did. The two deaths reported weren't related to this Din Daeng event but were possibly the actions of a pro-government vigilante group elsewhere a few days later.

You saw people speaking? True story? Did you actually see anybody get shot as you claim?

While the Pratunam temple crisis was going on this year I remember the reporter in the temple saying that the red shirts were pleading with him to ask the UN to help them from the nasty Thai army. Meanwhile other reporters outside the temple were reporting that the army was trying to negotiate a ceasefire with the people doing the shooting so they could get the people out the temple.

Given the reputation of the leaders for twisting the truth (proven time and time again), I know what side I believe.

I'm not qualified to talk about this year's Pratunam temple crisis as I was not there and I have to rely on second-hand accounts from both sides to try to get some idea of what really happened. But as I mentioned earlier in the thread I have seen the TNN footage and I got first-hand testimony from Red-Shirts who had been at Din Daeng just a few hours earlier. I talked about this on another thread about a year ago here on TV which I'm sure is quite searchable if you take the time.

April 2009: Human Rights Watch confirmed that there are some cases where the Army fired live ammunition directly at protesters, but that this only occurred when military forces approached protesters throwing Molotov bombs and improvised grenades, firing slingshots, and shooting guns at the troops.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/thailand/5164694/Human-Rights-Watch-calls-for-Thailand-inquiry-after-riots.html

Mind you, the OP is: no political rallies, UDD representatives may petition Mr. Ban.

[jdinasia]

At least 8? Please document this from ANY credible source. I understand you to mean Songkran 2009 when they rioted, threatened to blow up a housing block, destroyed busses etc .... but somehow I don't remember 8 dead. I know that Thaksin and the reds claimed 100's but that was clearly rebuffed. When did the number become 8?

The reds were radicalized in 2008 with Seh Daeng's "grenade throwing dance".

Why are you so untrusting about this matter? Well - I know why. I mentioned earlier in this thread my reasons for believing this figure to be correct if you care to take the time to verify.

Which is why I asked for ANY credible source. Your individual claim isn't credible. It doesn't match what ANY report that I saw in the English language or Thai press said. Not even Voice of Taksin (not credible) or DTV made this claim.

The media here exercise self-censorship so -of course - they're not going to even broach the subject.

And if we want to be pedantic I could challenge your claim: "Not even Voice of Taksin (not credible) or DTV made this claim." Source?

Source --- Voice of Taksin and PeopleTV. All you have to do to challenge that is go look at either one and show the claim. YOUR claim that this happened and nobody caught a body on film and "Youtubed" it or broadcast it an ANY way is just not believable. You have made a claim that is entirely B.S. and you have been called on it. Your position is of positive affirmation. The claim that Voice of Taksin did not report it would require me to post ALL of the Voice of Taksin red rag from the date in question until now. That is illegal under "fair usage" as well as ludicrous. (and it violates the TVF language rule

[whybother]

The media here exercise self-censorship so -of course - they're not going to even broach the subject.

And if we want to be pedantic I could challenge your claim: "Not even Voice of Taksin (not credible) or DTV made this claim." Source?

I'm guessing the source (or lack of) would be Voice of Taksin and DTV.

If you could find anything on there, you would be posting a link.

Given that none of the pro-red websites are posting details of it, is it possible that what you actually saw was footage of some other incident?

[SergeiY]

The media here exercise self-censorship so -of course - they're not going to even broach the subject.

And if we want to be pedantic I could challenge your claim: "Not even Voice of Taksin (not credible) or DTV made this claim." Source?

I'm guessing the source (or lack of) would be Voice of Taksin and DTV.

If you could find anything on there, you would be posting a link.

Given that none of the pro-red websites are posting details of it, is it possible that what you actually saw was footage of some other incident?

Wasn't there also some parliamentarian debate the month after the crackdown? No reports about this on red shirt websites?

I remeber at least two dead bodies in the river.. some xclip with some bodies loaded on a pick up in the dark. some claims of one 'surviver' that he escape somekind of deportation transport.

i am to lazy to search the red websites but i am sure there is something to find that at least these claims were made.

All falls with the credibility of the government who hides behind censorship and emergency laws and is not present in full transparency.

[whybother]

The media here exercise self-censorship so -of course - they're not going to even broach the subject.

And if we want to be pedantic I could challenge your claim: "Not even Voice of Taksin (not credible) or DTV made this claim." Source?

I'm guessing the source (or lack of) would be Voice of Taksin and DTV.

If you could find anything on there, you would be posting a link.

Given that none of the pro-red websites are posting details of it, is it possible that what you actually saw was footage of some other incident?

Wasn't there also some parliamentarian debate the month after the crackdown? No reports about this on red shirt websites?

I remeber at least two dead bodies in the river.. some xclip with some bodies loaded on a pick up in the dark. some claims of one 'surviver' that he escape somekind of deportation transport.

i am to lazy to search the red websites but i am sure there is something to find that at least these claims were made.

All falls with the credibility of the government who hides behind censorship and emergency laws and is not present in full transparency.

What are you going on about?

[chantorn]

The media here exercise self-censorship so -of course - they're not going to even broach the subject.

And if we want to be pedantic I could challenge your claim: "Not even Voice of Taksin (not credible) or DTV made this claim." Source?

I'm guessing the source (or lack of) would be Voice of Taksin and DTV.

If you could find anything on there, you would be posting a link.

Given that none of the pro-red websites are posting details of it, is it possible that what you actually saw was footage of some other incident?

Wasn't there also some parliamentarian debate the month after the crackdown? No reports about this on red shirt websites?

I remeber at least two dead bodies in the river.. some xclip with some bodies loaded on a pick up in the dark. some claims of one 'surviver' that he escape somekind of deportation transport.

i am to lazy to search the red websites but i am sure there is something to find that at least these claims were made.

All falls with the credibility of the government who hides behind censorship and emergency laws and is not present in full transparency.

Yes, a few people died. BUT the army say it was not related, and I believe them. Afterall, why would the army lie. The army are not some drunken Farang journalist; that only source of info is Thai Visa.

[jdinasia]

There was a case in which during April/May the reds used dead soldiers bodies as propaganda .... then got burned when it turned out to be people killed in the South. (They claimed that they were soldiers that refused to fight the reds. They got caught out!)

[SergeiY]

The media here exercise self-censorship so -of course - they're not going to even broach the subject.

And if we want to be pedantic I could challenge your claim: "Not even Voice of Taksin (not credible) or DTV made this claim." Source?

I'm guessing the source (or lack of) would be Voice of Taksin and DTV.

If you could find anything on there, you would be posting a link.

Given that none of the pro-red websites are posting details of it, is it possible that what you actually saw was footage of some other incident?

Wasn't there also some parliamentarian debate the month after the crackdown? No reports about this on red shirt websites?

I remeber at least two dead bodies in the river.. some xclip with some bodies loaded on a pick up in the dark. some claims of one 'surviver' that he escape somekind of deportation transport.

i am to lazy to search the red websites but i am sure there is something to find that at least these claims were made.

All falls with the credibility of the government who hides behind censorship and emergency laws and is not present in full transparency.

What are you going on about?

Because there are no official reports about death on songkran 2009 and you don't know not much about it doesn't have to mean that nobody died.

The credibility of sources on all sides can be questioned or is here questionable.

[whybother]

Because there are no official reports about death on songkran 2009 and you don't know not much about it doesn't have to mean that nobody died.

The credibility of sources on all sides can be questioned or is here questionable.

But there aren't even any non-official reports of it.

Bagwan saw what he believed was a video of the army loading bodies onto a truck after the 2009 riots.

Apparently, none of the red propaganda team saw it, otherwise it would have been on the pro-red websites.

[SergeiY]

The media here exercise self-censorship so -of course - they're not going to even broach the subject.

And if we want to be pedantic I could challenge your claim: "Not even Voice of Taksin (not credible) or DTV made this claim." Source?

I'm guessing the source (or lack of) would be Voice of Taksin and DTV.

If you could find anything on there, you would be posting a link.

Given that none of the pro-red websites are posting details of it, is it possible that what you actually saw was footage of some other incident?

Wasn't there also some parliamentarian debate the month after the crackdown? No reports about this on red shirt websites?

I remeber at least two dead bodies in the river.. some xclip with some bodies loaded on a pick up in the dark. some claims of one 'surviver' that he escape somekind of deportation transport.

i am to lazy to search the red websites but i am sure there is something to find that at least these claims were made.

All falls with the credibility of the government who hides behind censorship and emergency laws and is not present in full transparency.

Yes, a few people died. BUT the army say it was not related, and I believe them. Afterall, why would the army lie. The army are not some drunken Farang journalist; that only source of info is Thai Visa.

Ahh, Thank you.

I will keep your words in mind when some Farang wanna me tell here something.

[bulmercke]

Ok jdinasia - if you like I will do a search on the internet tomorrow for the video in question and send the URL in a PM to you. That will settle the matter. And anyway - how do you know Voice of Thaksin and DTV didn't report on this at the time or subsequently? I didn't realise you were a subscriber to both and/or have an encyclopaedic knowledge of the content of their back issues from April 2009 onwards.

[chantorn]

Because there are no official reports about death on songkran 2009 and you don't know not much about it doesn't have to mean that nobody died.

The credibility of sources on all sides can be questioned or is here questionable.

But there aren't even any non-official reports of it.

Bagwan saw what he believed was a video of the army loading bodies onto a truck after the 2009 riots.

Apparently, none of the red propaganda team saw it, otherwise it would have been on the pro-red websites.

I think many people saw it. However, being Red-shirt, they are too poor to own a camera phone. Not like the Yellow-shirt.

[SergeiY]

Because there are no official reports about death on songkran 2009 and you don't know not much about it doesn't have to mean that nobody died.

The credibility of sources on all sides can be questioned or is here questionable.

But there aren't even any non-official reports of it.

Bagwan saw what he believed was a video of the army loading bodies onto a truck after the 2009 riots.

Apparently, none of the red propaganda team saw it, otherwise it would have been on the pro-red websites.

Wasn't Weng still talking about? I think it is still in the red propaganda meme.

But i cannot prove it nor can i disprove it nor do i trust in the denies and statements by the government. Reliability is on all sides equal. And i know that you don't have the perfect knowledge nor the perfect memory.

In doubt i would tend to the underdog.

[bulmercke]

Because there are no official reports about death on songkran 2009 and you don't know not much about it doesn't have to mean that nobody died.

The credibility of sources on all sides can be questioned or is here questionable.

But there aren't even any non-official reports of it.

Bagwan saw what he believed was a video of the army loading bodies onto a truck after the 2009 riots.

Apparently, none of the red propaganda team saw it, otherwise it would have been on the pro-red websites.

I think many people saw it. However, being Red-shirt, they are too poor to own a camera phone. Not like the Yellow-shirt.

I'll give you credit chantorn - you've got a good sense of humour.

[bulmercke]

Because there are no official reports about death on songkran 2009 and you don't know not much about it doesn't have to mean that nobody died.

The credibility of sources on all sides can be questioned or is here questionable.

But there aren't even any non-official reports of it.

Bagwan saw what he believed was a video of the army loading bodies onto a truck after the 2009 riots.

Apparently, none of the red propaganda team saw it, otherwise it would have been on the pro-red websites.

Correction: whybother I think you'll find my user name is bulmercke and not Bagwan. Just a small point.

[whybother]

Because there are no official reports about death on songkran 2009 and you don't know not much about it doesn't have to mean that nobody died.

The credibility of sources on all sides can be questioned or is here questionable.

But there aren't even any non-official reports of it.

Bagwan saw what he believed was a video of the army loading bodies onto a truck after the 2009 riots.

Apparently, none of the red propaganda team saw it, otherwise it would have been on the pro-red websites.

Correction: whybother I think you'll find my user name is bulmercke and not Bagwan. Just a small point.

Apologies ... :jap:

[jayjay0]

QUOTE:"......the first thing they would have to do is admit where they were wrong." Those nasty Red-Shirts. They brought it all upon themselves. How dare they stand-up to the sickening inequality - rampant corruption - political and military oppression that now exists in this country.

If this is really their aim - to stand up against what you mention - why do they pick the worst role-models imaginable as leaders?

The red shirt movement is ethically bankrupt. Have a quick scan through this news section for reminders of why.

Insight - you ask:"......why do they pick the worst role-models imaginable as leaders?" Actually this is a good question. Me - personally? I detest Thaksin and much of what he stands for BUT....and it's a big BUT...I do support the Red-Shirts - the vast majority of which are ordinary and decent Thais.

Agreed many of the Red-Shirt leaders are cowboys - but I guess that was what was required when they were left with no other realistic option than to become more radical and militant in their approach to the government.

YOU HIT IT ON THE HEAD THERE APPROACH NOT THE PEOPLES. LETS ALL GET RADICAL AND HOLD THAILAND FOR RANSOM. OOPS FORGOT WE DON'T ALL HAVE THAKSIN'S MONEY

Yah they sure showed us. did it ever occur to you that you are living in a democracy and the system that elected your idol Thaksin is the same one that elected The current PM and is the same one that will elect the next one. It is a system used in many countries England and Canada for instance.

To put a red shirt on is just a license to create havoc. To be for democracy and freedom you can not wear a red shirt that is not what they are about. If you doubt me check with your leader. It is all about him and his cronies getting there heads into the pigs trough first. Have a look at the ones in Bangkok throwing bombs invading hospitals trying to burn Bangkok down and last but not least leaving bombs all around to get innocent victims. Have they done any thing to help the people thy put out of a job? You are lining your self up with some pretty fine people all right.

[jayjay0]

I wonder if Mr. Moon will pick up on the generals comments and the context

A general telling the public not to demonstrate....hmm surely it's the governments job to do that, as the army (in any democratic country, or a country that aspires to be democratic) is subserviant to the civillian adminstration and as such should keep its snout out of civillian matters, which is what a public demonstration is.

As far as i'm aware (and i may be wrong) in european or N. american countries the army would never dream of telling people if and when it can demostrate.

The words of the general show just how democratic Thailand is and it is something that both red and yellow should be deeply worried about. And I hope the generals comments are something Mr. Moon questions the PM on

Noble ideas you forgot just one little minor detail. The countries you mentioned have police forces to try to control the mobs. Besides in reality we really don't want riot's and if it take the army to stop it so be it.

[phiphidon]

Yah they sure showed us. did it ever occur to you that you are living in a democracy and the system that elected your idol Thaksin is the same one that elected The current PM and is the same one that will elect the next one. It is a system used in many countries England and Canada for instance.

To put a red shirt on is just a license to create havoc. To be for democracy and freedom you can not wear a red shirt that is not what they are about. If you doubt me check with your leader. It is all about him and his cronies getting there heads into the pigs trough first. Have a look at the ones in Bangkok throwing bombs invading hospitals trying to burn Bangkok down and last but not least leaving bombs all around to get innocent victims. Have they done any thing to help the people thy put out of a job? You are lining your self up with some pretty fine people all right.

To get back to the OP. Gen.Prayuth seems to think in black and white terms too. Have a look around in other papers for his views on good people and bad people.

[Colabamumbai]

I wonder if Mr. Moon will pick up on the generals comments and the context

A general telling the public not to demonstrate....hmm surely it's the governments job to do that, as the army (in any democratic country, or a country that aspires to be democratic) is subserviant to the civillian adminstration and as such should keep its snout out of civillian matters, which is what a public demonstration is.

As far as i'm aware (and i may be wrong) in european or N. american countries the army would never dream of telling people if and when it can demostrate.

The words of the general show just how democratic Thailand is and it is something that both red and yellow should be deeply worried about. And I hope the generals comments are something Mr. Moon questions the PM on

Noble ideas you forgot just one little minor detail. The countries you mentioned have police forces to try to control the mobs. Besides in reality we really don't want riot's and if it take the army to stop it so be it.

[Colabamumbai]

"Democratic or aspires to be." Who are you trying to kid. Thailand has always been run by the military.

[TAWP]

No, I don't - but I can see how they became more radicalised and militant. The shooting dead of protesters by the army - at least eight - last April 2009 at Din Daeng didn't help matters much either.

You make claims about deaths last year without providing any evidence whatsoever, and this year what deaths there were through protesters choosing to be in the company of heavily armed militants are being sensationalised for maximum political effect.

The intention behind such actions is incredibly clear to people who are not blindly red.

There was a live feed on TNN - news network - from the Viphavadi - Din Daeng area shortly after the shootings which showed from a distance army personnel and others loading corpses into the back of some trucks. I didn't myself watch this live but have subsequently seen a recording of this on YouTube or somewhere else - I can't recall where - but I have seen the video and it's pretty damning.

Also - the following morning - just a few hours later I went to the Urapong intersection - near Phitsanalok road - to see for myself what was going on - where many Red-Shirts were gathered from the night before and they all told me the same story. They were extremely distraught and upset at what had happened to their comrades and friends. This was before I knew anything about the TNN footage. The army and the government covered up these deaths.

"I call Bullshit, your Honor."

Present the videos or get out. These false claims have been coming back for 1.5 years sofar with ZERO video evidence. But it is always 'out there'. Or on 'Youtube'. Just not findable for 'us' I suppose.

[jayjay0]

Still not really reading comments, do you? I said 'can't find'.

I wonder more and more whether I should just ignore you, or keep answering dumb questions. I'm leaning towards ignore, let you play with yourself.

You asked for a 'pointing out to you'. I just did that.

A comment in this thread contains a quote from a journalist stating exactly that what you cannot find.

I cannot help you with reading or your selective perception.

bulmerkie claimed in there post #19 that

(Nick Nostitz - New Mandela) claimed there was to be prescreened questions. Don't know who he is or what New Mandela is. Sounds like a underground red shirt publication. I could be wrong.

[jayjay0]

"Democratic or aspires to be." Who are you trying to kid. Thailand has always been run by the military.

Well you could be right or you could be wrong makes no difference when we talk democracy we speak of a ideal. There is not one country in the world with democracy. In a democracy the majority rules. If the United States had democracy they would have had Al Gore as president not George Bush.:jap:

[philw]

bulmerkie claimed in there post #19 that

(Nick Nostitz - New Mandela) claimed there was to be prescreened questions. Don't know who he is or what New Mandela is. Sounds like a underground red shirt publication. I could be wrong.

Suggest you use Google to find out and then read some of their work on Thailand.

Illuminating.

[rubl]

bulmerkie claimed in there post #19 that

(Nick Nostitz - New Mandela) claimed there was to be prescreened questions. Don't know who he is or what New Mandela is. Sounds like a underground red shirt publication. I could be wrong.

Suggest you use Google to find out and then read some of their work on Thailand.

Illuminating.

correct, very illuminating! mostly it confirms all of us in our opinions which seem set in concrete. Some interpret NM as a bunch of communists, or left wing, red-shirts; some as holy writ. Guess on which side I am

Edited October 26, 2010 by rubl

[rubl]

For all those who condemned the government or Gen. Prayuth for not allowing rallies while Mr. Ban was here:

"Later on, about 100 of red shirts have joined the group in front of The UN building and showed the assaulting signs in both Thai and English languages with photos of police using weapons on to the innocent people."

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/home/2010/10/26/politics/Reds-ask-UN-chief-to-give-political-asylum-seekers-30140846.html

I'm a bit puzzled about the photo's of police using weapons to shoot innocent people. I thought that was in 2007 or 2008 against the yellow shirts? Maybe a typo in the Nation newsflash?

[chantorn]

For all those who condemned the government or Gen. Prayuth for not allowing rallies while Mr. Ban was here:

"Later on, about 100 of red shirts have joined the group in front of The UN building and showed the assaulting signs in both Thai and English languages with photos of police using weapons on to the innocent people."

http://www.nationmul...s-30140846.html

I'm a bit puzzled about the photo's of police using weapons to shoot innocent people. I thought that was in 2007 or 2008 against the yellow shirts? Maybe a typo in the Nation newsflash?

Hahaha. You mean the media mess it up again?

[jdinasia]

Ok jdinasia - if you like I will do a search on the internet tomorrow for the video in question and send the URL in a PM to you. That will settle the matter. And anyway - how do you know Voice of Thaksin and DTV didn't report on this at the time or subsequently? I didn't realise you were a subscriber to both and/or have an encyclopaedic knowledge of the content of their back issues from April 2009 onwards.

On fact I do read VoT and did have People TV on throughout almost all of the political crisis. Your claims just cannot be backed up by ANY proof. If there was ANYTHING out there it would be in constant use by the Reds. hel_l, they used doctored tapes to try and discredit Abhisit. They used pictures of dead members of the military to try and discredit the government (the soldiers died in the south and not from the reasons claimed by the reds.)

YOU made the claim .. it is up to you to show some proof. Since there isn't any (not even rumours of your claims) I guess we won't be seeing anything from you