Time To Bring Gay Rights In Thailand Out Of The Closet

[cdnvic]

I still maintain Thailand is extremely tolerant of the gay people and all the other related types. It is the Farongs who have the prejudices.

In the cities there is a measure of tolerance, but things are quite different back in the villages.

[jcbangkok]

I still maintain Thailand is extremely tolerant of the gay people and all the other related types. It is the Farongs who have the prejudices.

In the cities there is a measure of tolerance, but things are quite different back in the villages.

This is probably a very valid point as I have never spent any real time outside the cities. I imagine it can be very different there as in many countries where there are a number of the "country folk" who are a couple decades behind when it comes to accepting new ideas or are simply Red Necks,

[SweatiePie]

The article is so typical of the nation. Why TV continues to rely so heavily on the nation is beyond me.

Maybe its because The Nation owns TV?

[Ijustwannateach]

I should point out here now that disparaging minorities is not allowed in the news forum any more than in any part of Thaivisa forum. Suggesting that homosexuality is inherently criminal or perverse will earn severe penalties here and elsewhere. I shall now apply this rule to all previous posts in this thread.

Several posts violating rules and the posts quoting them have been deleted, and several warnings issued. Please be aware when posting that hate remarks towards minority groups will not be tolerated.

[SweatiePie]

It seems the author, while appearing to support a case (The gay case? The T-case?) really doesn't know what he is talking about. Maybe he is looking to improve his ranking as a journalist by stirring a controversy?

Tom, I couldn't agree more.

From the very start he's confusing sexual identity , sexual orientation, and sexual preference which are three totally different terms. Quite how the "room full of human rights activists and scholars" could be expected to know the "proper definition" of transgender defies belief, as there isn't one since it is an evolving broadbrush term which means different things depending on the context in which it is used.

Edited October 31, 2010 by SweatiePie

[Jingthing]

I for one welcome the Nation's editorial. This is a subject that is certainly not discussed enough in Thailand. Thai homophobia. It is real. It's not the most severe in the world by any measure, but it still widely exists.

Homophobia of course manifests itself somewhat differently in different cultures. One obvious difference here (at least to me) is that Thai people appear to have a greater tendency to think ladyboy/kathoey when they think about gay stuff. For example, in the west if a young man comes out as gay to people close to him, generally people will be thinking, this is boy who loves boys. In Thailand, there seems to be a lot more confusion with a more typical response, this boy is a kathoey and needs to save money to cut off his dick. In some cases, of course the coming out boy will indeed be a budding ladyboy (wanting surgery or not). In most case, not, just a budding garden variety homosexual. This, my friends, is simply IGNORANCE, and the more information in the press here the better. It is also worth noting that there may indeed be more tolerance for ladyboys among Thais than for regular homosexuals. I am not certain about this, but this is something I suspect. This is not as odd as it may first appear.

Consider Iran. In Iran gay men risk being murdered by the state (if not their families). If, however, they choose to cut off their dick (Iran is the second leading country in sex change surgeries after Thailand) and become ersatz women, then they can not only not be murdered and/or totally give up sex for life, but have fulfilling lives. Yes, I am indeed suggesting that Thailand is actually more like Iran than it superficially appear. A ladyboy accepts the male-female paradigm, they are not a man, so they need to be a woman. Thailand is traditionally a society where women have much lower status than men. A regular homosexual is a man who totally rejects the traditional male/female model and as such is potentially much more of a threat to traditional standards. Perhaps indeed there are more ladyboys in Thailand than there would be naturally, pushed by social pressure into this; it may simply be easier to be a ladyboy than a regular homosexual for many men in Thailand.

Another point. In a blog I linked to before, there was a diatribe about how Thai sexual minorities should NOT emulate the more militant methods of western sexual minorities. I get that and see that Thailand is a different culture where making too much noise makes too many negative waves. However, I think this is an issue of legitimate debate. Thailand HAS changed. Look at the red shirts. Were they polite? Incredibly not. Did they get anything? Arguably, they got something, not everything. Of course I am not in any way suggesting that sexual minority Thais become terrorists like the red shirts, but I am suggesting the old school advice that they not actively politically organize in similar ways to western lobbying groups may indeed be passe. For example, as a start they could organize to include a required tolerance education requirement for Thai schools. Basic stuff -- not all homosexuals are transgendered. All sexualities are valued in Thai society and have the same opportunities as all. No need for ladyboys to think cosmetics counter saleslady to be their best employment option (why not ladyboy doctors/ladyboy mayors?). Also, of course, anti-bullying education. Bullying often leads to suicide.

Edited October 31, 2010 by Jingthing

[SweatiePie]

I really believe a good portion of ladyboys in Thailand are not gay or attracted to me.

Are you sure you meant to say that?

[SweatiePie]

Maybe it's not necessary. I came back from a Gay Pride Parade in NY several years ago and showed pictures to my gay friends. "...and this is the 'Gay Bicycling Group'..." My friends asked: "If somelike likes bicycling, why would they want to restrict it to gay friends?" Point I'm trying to make: In Bangkok it doesn't matter whether you are straight or gay.

Tom, again I couldn't agree with you and your friends more (a feeling that takes some getting used to!). For most (but by no means all) Thais the idea that all aspects of your social life should be controlled by and centre around your sexual orientation is simply baffling, and Dikes on Bikes and the like .would get relatively few takers.

The "military policy" of not admitting gays has not been "liberalised" - it never existed and is a figment of some people's imagination. There has never been any policy of not admitting gays to the Thai military (as I have explained recently on more than one thread in the Gay Forum). What has changed has been rejecting conscripts who have had full or partial sex-reassignment surgery on the grounds of mental health and rejecting them instead on physical grounds; nothing else. The most accurate thing the author of the link given by JT wrote was "I don’t know what actually goes on in the Thai GLBT community" !

[Jingthing]

In the past at least, ladyboys trying to or being drafted into the Thai military were classified as having a mental illness. This could exclude them for service but deeply stigmatize them for the rest of their lives, resulting in the limited work opportunities for ladyboys, and partly explaining their great numbers in prostitution and thievery. What casual observers do not get, do not see, are the many ways Thais are stigmatized by other Thais, in effect ruining countless lives. Do not be deceived by the smiles (even those are harder to come by these days).

[Jingthing]

Post withdrawn.

Edited October 31, 2010 by Jingthing

[SweatiePie]

I still maintain Thailand is extremely tolerant of the gay people and all the other related types. It is the Farongs who have the prejudices.

In the cities there is a measure of tolerance, but things are quite different back in the villages.

I beg to disagree - strongly.

This is a topic that has been discussed on the Gay Forum recently and I cannot understand why some farangs are so set on this view - those few gay farangs who live in Thai villages and post here appear to disagree, and I cannot help wondering just how much time those who hold this view have actually spent living in a Thai village in comparison to their time in the Big Mango.

I visit schools and villages throughout rural Thailand all the time in connection with the PDA and from my own experience the urban acceptance vs rural rejection argument is just a myth, often started by Thais who, for one reason or another, do not want to take their farang b/f home and this is the easiest excuse to use.

[SweatiePie]

In the past at least, ladyboys trying to or being drafted into the Thai military were classified as having a mental illness.

Let's not get into another discussion of "ladyboys", JT, please!

Those who had "had full or partial sex-reassignment surgery" were (as I said).

Those who simply turned up dressed for the day in their sister's party frock with some Pampers stuffed down their blouse in order to avoid military service were not , regardless of their sexual orientation. Declaring that you were gay, no matter how shrilly or vocally, has never been a way of avoiding conscription in Thailand.

[BaronCasey]

I'm sorry gents, but I cannot accept that ladyboys and their consorts are part of the heterosexual scene. And I do have something against them personally, though sexually I find them repugnant; they are the source of a much larger percentage of the local crime than their percentage of the population. No, I don't have statistics to back that up, but I have 4 friends robbed in hugger/mugger situations, which is out of all proportion to other crimes.

I have said this before and I will repeat it - putting your favourite sheep in a dress is still bestiality, and putting your boyfriend in a dress is still homosexuality, whether he still has a penis or not, and no matter what he thinks he really is. Homosexuals apparently wish to disown them as well, which brings us to the concept of bisexuality. IMO by interacting with a man who resembles a woman, the bisexual man can pretend that he is still "straight" until he no longer needs the pretence. Bisexuality is much more common and accepted than "pure" homosexuality in many cultures.

Out of curiosity Oz, how frequently are you finding yourself repeating to people "putting your favourite sheep in a dress is still bestiality"?

And four separate mates, each of them robbed by a ladyboy. Hmmm... no smoke without fire Oz. My guess is that when your mates are not thinking about farm fertilizer, they're secret ladyboy fanciers. Mind you, even the hellish looking ones on Beach Rd are better than a sheep and a well-used can of WD40.

Come on OZ, now that you know what you're mates get up to, you can have a go too - fair dinkum mate!

[endure]

The article is so typical of the nation. Why TV continues to rely so heavily on the nation is beyond me.

Maybe its because The Nation owns TV?

The Nation doesn't own TV - George does.

[cdnvic]

The article is so typical of the nation. Why TV continues to rely so heavily on the nation is beyond me.

Maybe its because The Nation owns TV?

Do some research before spouting off what you know nothing about. Thaivisa stands alone, owned by no outside interests. We had an advertising agreement with The Nation that has since lapsed. Nothing more.

[Jingthing]

The question is, are they chicks with dicks or men with tits?

The answer is NEITHER.

Next ...

[Ulysses G.]

There was an article on Thai street-walkers in last weeks Bangkok Post. They quoted the girls as saying that only gay men took the lady-boys which is certainly not the PC stance.

They also said that middle class Thai men are more generous than Westerners and less demanding too.

Edited October 31, 2010 by Ulysses G.

[Jingthing]

There was an article on Thai street-walkers in last weeks Bangkok Post. They quoted the girls as saying that only gay men took the lady-boys which is certainly not the PC stance.

They also said that middle class Thai men are more generous than Westerners and less demanding too.

If by girls you mean the real women prostitutes said that only gays took LB's, of course they would say that! The LB's are their competition and by saying that they are dissing both the LB's and their admirers. That certainly doesn't mean that what those spiteful women said is the truth, now does it? Duh.

Has it occurred to you that professional sex ladies aren't overly fond of gay men? Does it occur to you why?

Next ...

And so this thread which was supposed to be about stemming homophobia in Thailand becomes another kinky katheoy sex trade thread.

There are no problems with this issue in Thailand. Yeah, sure. If you believe that, I have a beer bar to sell you.

Edited October 31, 2010 by Jingthing

[moetownblues]

There was an article on Thai street-walkers in last weeks Bangkok Post. They quoted the girls as saying that only gay men took the lady-boys which is certainly not the PC stance.

They also said that middle class Thai men are more generous than Westerners and less demanding too.

Let's face it middle class thai's will be more generous and less demanding of sexual acts, Westerners and those from the middle east and other parts are sex tourists and demand thier sexual fanatasies be filled to the limit. Thai's live here and it is not your quick wham bham thank you mham thing. Western sex tourists do not care less about the people whether they are bi/hetro, cross dressing/gay or what ever. It's the end result that matters.

[SweatiePie]

The article is so typical of the nation. Why TV continues to rely so heavily on the nation is beyond me.

Maybe its because The Nation owns TV?

Do some research before spouting off what you know nothing about. Thaivisa stands alone, owned by no outside interests. We had an advertising agreement with The Nation that has since lapsed. Nothing more.

My apologies - please note , however, there was a question mark in my post.

[SweatiePie]

I have always found it odd in Thailand that if a man becomes a women through surgery that they still have to remain a man on their ID and Passport. I am not sure if this is the case in most countries but I "think" in the US it is not. What if these women (ex-males) were to go to jail? Would they be housed with the women or men since they are listed as a man but now have breasts and a vagina????

Is there another country that has taken steps to recognize a 3rd gender? Seems Thailand is ahead of the game on this one but one really needs to wonder if this is a good, bad or indifferent thing.

To answer your questions, JC (and I wish those I asked would answer mine!):

"most" contries do not recognize legal gender reassignment (birth certificate/passport/marriage) yet, and even in those that do the circumstances vary considerably (sometimes even bizarrely).

In Australia, Canada, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Holland, Italy, Japan (as long as they are unmarried and childless), Malaysia (at a judge's discretion), the Philippines, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Singapore, South Africa, South Korea, Sweden and the UK those who have already had reassignment surgery are allowed to change their legal gender and marry. Ireland is in the process of introducing this legislation. Most countries do not define "re-assignment surgery", so it is not always necessary to have all the usual bits added or deleted to become a legal man or woman.

In India hijra and kothi (hijra are transgenders, some of whom have castrated themselves and are often known as aruvani, while kothi are more akin to cross-dressing fems) are legally men, but they may choose to register as men or women to vote.

In the USA it is up to individual states and most allow transsexuals to change their gender, although some states have never legislated for it and some (Idaho, Ohio, Tennessee and Texas) have refused (although Texas may at a judge's discretion). Only 13 states have legislation prohibiting discrimination based on gender and trans-genders have no protection under federal law or the ENDA. Interestingly 380 transsexuals from Mexico and other South American countries have been granted asylum in the States on the grounds of persecution in their own countries.

In Spain and the UK transsexuals can change their legal gender regardless of whether they have had any reassignment surgery or not as long as they can indicate "gender dysphoria".

In the UK it is still possible for transsexuals to change their legal gender each time they cross the border between England and Scotland.

In the countries above those going to gaol (jail for the American speakers) would be housed according to their latest birth certificate, although in most cases (except Japan) anyone who had had full reassignment surgery but who had not done the matching paperwork would be housed according to medical advice. In other countries, such as Thailand, it is usually at the judges discretion (and usually based on the birth certificate).

The only country I know of which "has taken steps to recognize a 3rd gender" is India, in the case of hijras, but this is very much a long term aim of the Sangama group rather than government policy, as homosexual activity was only legalised last year with the repeal of Section 377.

Edited October 31, 2010 by SweatiePie

[tombkk]

It seems the author, while appearing to support a case (The gay case? The T-case?) really doesn't know what he is talking about. Maybe he is looking to improve his ranking as a journalist by stirring a controversy?

Tom, I couldn't agree more.

From the very start he's confusing sexual identity , sexual orientation, and sexual preference which are three totally different terms. Quite how the "room full of human rights activists and scholars" could be expected to know the "proper definition" of transgender defies belief, as there isn't one since it is an evolving broadbrush term which means different things depending on the context in which it is used.

Hm. I also agree to what you are saying. Glad to go down this road!

[SergeiY]

There was an article on Thai street-walkers in last weeks Bangkok Post. They quoted the girls as saying that only gay men took the lady-boys which is certainly not the PC stance.

They also said that middle class Thai men are more generous than Westerners and less demanding too.

If by girls you mean the real women prostitutes said that only gays took LB's, of course they would say that! The LB's are their competition and by saying that they are dissing both the LB's and their admirers. That certainly doesn't mean that what those spiteful women said is the truth, now does it? Duh.

Has it occurred to you that professional sex ladies aren't overly fond of gay men? Does it occur to you why?

Next ...

And so this thread which was supposed to be about stemming homophobia in Thailand becomes another kinky katheoy sex trade thread.

There are no problems with this issue in Thailand. Yeah, sure. If you believe that, I have a beer bar to sell you.

No this thread turned into transphobia, transprejudice and trans-misogyny and misogyny and you taking part in it.

<deleted>! OH PLEEZE! Can these Thai academics and most straights out there first stop lumping gays and transgenders under the same categories!Almost 95% of gay men hate transgenders or being evenly identified with them in any way.

For most people: If you are a male and ...

....

Edited October 31, 2010 by SergeiY

[tombkk]

The question is, are they chicks with dicks or men with tits?

The answer is NEITHER.

Next ...

Hm. IMHO, the answer is BOTH. It depends on the individual person.

But following the discussion of a third sex and this not being anything new, Magnus Hirschfeld at the beginning of the previous century suggested the third gender for gay people.

[TAWP]

I'm sorry gents, but I cannot accept that ladyboys and their consorts are part of the heterosexual scene. And I do have something against them personally, though sexually I find them repugnant; they are the source of a much larger percentage of the local crime than their percentage of the population. No, I don't have statistics to back that up, but I have 4 friends robbed in hugger/mugger situations, which is out of all proportion to other crimes.

I have said this before and I will repeat it - putting your favourite sheep in a dress is still bestiality, and putting your boyfriend in a dress is still homosexuality, whether he still has a penis or not, and no matter what he thinks he really is. Homosexuals apparently wish to disown them as well, which brings us to the concept of bisexuality. IMO by interacting with a man who resembles a woman, the bisexual man can pretend that he is still "straight" until he no longer needs the pretence. Bisexuality is much more common and accepted than "pure" homosexuality in many cultures.

I am guessing you are one of those confused individuals that think that if a man has a girlfriend that has an XY chromosome pair, but looks, acts and is built like a woman, then he is a homosexual.

This is often the case when a person haven't read biology above grade-school and still think that the existence of an XY chromosome pair is in indicator of what psycial gender the person will have.

Edited October 31, 2010 by TAWP

[TAWP]

I was referring specifically to ladyboys (see initial post) and referred to anecdotal evidence that 4 of my friends have been robbed by katoi hugger/muggers

Maybe your friends should avoid streetwalkers...

I on the other hand have never been robbed by anyone. It is how you pick them (women, friends, whatever). (Knock on wood.)

[geriatrickid]

The practice until the end of 2005 was that openly homosexual people were banned from serving in Thailand's military. Until that time openly homosexual men and women were labeled as mental defectives. They are still precluded from serving. There was a public announcement in 2005 that the military would stop labeling openly homosexual conscripts as mental defectives which then barred from servce. Natee Teerarojjanapong had organized a campaign to protest the use of the mental defective label. The 2005 announcement was in respect to the decision to stop using the mental defective label. The most telling statement was this;

"We are not going to allow them into the army because it would cause a lot of disorder, but the move is designed to address the complaints and to boost human rights." Lieutenant General Arthon Lohitakul

The practice is to still ban openly gay and transgendered people from military service.

The legal environment in respect to transgenders is an eyeopener. Read Regulation of the Medical Council Concerning Ethics in the Medical Profession Rules for Treatment in Sex Change Operations 2552 B.E. (2009 A.D.)

The law still treats those seeking gender reassignment as "ill". In particular; Clause 4. In this regulation:

Treatment for a sex change procedure means treatment of an illness or an abnormal state of mind by undergoing an operation to change (the physical characteristics) from a male to a female or a female to a male. It includes an operation or other treatment intended to permanently change physical characteristics or sex hormones,.......

Transgenders are still considered by the Thai military as mentally ill and of possessing an abnormal state of mind. The existing laws still ban such people from military service.The difference is that the term mental defective is no longer used.

Why would anyone expect the Thai military to adopt a practice that runs contrary to national practice? There is no legal recognition of same sex marriage in Thailand right? There isn't even a a recognition of "civil union" as practiced in the west. Having a marriage ceremony is quite different than being able to legally register the "marriage" down at Amphur office.

Follow the line of logic and it will most likely cause many foreign gays residing in Thailand to go into denial; The current Thai law allows the civil rights of mentally ill persons to be curtailed. The civil code does not permit the marriage of mentally ill people. If the current government practice is to affix the label of mentally ill to some homosexuals and transgenders (as demonstrated by the military medical review board and by the law respecting the "treatment" of transgender sexual reassignment, what does that really reveal about the political mindset of the government? Tolerance should not be confused with an acceptance of legal rights and protections.

[cdnvic]

Some pointless bickering deleted.

[Antathome]

I guess EVERYTHING needs improving but I really have not run across much prejudice against gays in Thailand. I see openly gay transgender folks working at many places. This is something not that common in the US. I am also told these guys (and former guys) make great sales people when it comes to things related to make-up and such. Again, it would be something that would cause much uneasiness with many shoppers in the US. My point is not that the US is a measuring stick but that this is certainly an area where Thailand has more acceptance and understanding.

As for many gays and transgener folks being in the sex trade ... it is a way to make a better living than most jobs in Thailand, This is an issue of economics and education and not sexuality. Secondly, I would venture to guess that a good number of so-called gays in the sex trade are not even gay but simply trying to make a buck. Many of the gay porn starts in the US are actually straight but it pays better and their is more work. Chances are if you see somebody openly displaying their "gayness" it is because they are advertising (often for work). Being gay shouldn't mean you are a walking homo advertisement.

The fact of the matter (in my opinion) is that when going to a retail outlet, it should be improper for the clerk to openly show any sexual preference .. regardless of country. It is just bad manners and makes many customers uncomfortable. I am in a relationship and regardless if it is a women or man, I don't need to deal with their sexuality when making a purchase ... well, at least outside Soi Cowboy.

Bottom line is I find it odd the things The Nation chooses to focus on when with so many more important issues that can be tackled and should be brought to light. Being poor and lacking opportunity is certainly not a problem relegated the gays in Thailand.

On a side note ... has anybody else noticed that when Thai's talk about gays they are only talking about men? Women gays are not called gay but Lesbians.

My wife and I were in Pattaya in 2006 and got bailed up by a transgender trying to sell us timeshare. Very persuasive, pleasant and looked a treat (took me a few moments to realise that she was a he. Fortunately, the deal was crappy and we didn't buy, but I really got the impression that discrimination (we did have a few other encounters as well) against gay / lesbian / transgender is not the issue in Thailand that it is in some Western countries.

[SergeiY]

As for many gays and transgener folks being in the sex trade ... it is a way to make a better living than most jobs in Thailand, This is an issue of economics and education and not sexuality. Secondly, I would venture to guess that a good number of so-called gays in the sex trade are not even gay but simply trying to make a buck. Many of the gay porn starts in the US are actually straight but it pays better and their is more work. Chances are if you see somebody openly displaying their "gayness" it is because they are advertising (often for work). Being gay shouldn't mean you are a walking homo advertisement.

This topic is about gay or transgender people in Thai society and the issues and problems of these people have very little to do with US-american porn movies.