Time To Bring Gay Rights In Thailand Out Of The Closet

[brahmburgers]

I can define transgender, though even people that can't perfectly define that newfangled word, are entitled to an opinion on the subject. Talk of completely liberal rights for transgenders is too sweeping of a statement. Sure, there should be basic rights for everyone. But it's the specifics that are sticky, because transgenders encompass a wide variety of ways in which people manifest. Example, there's a difference between a woman clerical worker who likes to wear cowboy boots and secretly wishes she were a man - to a man dressed as a woman who haunts the beach street at Pattaya, trying to make a living by cheating guys who take him/her up to their rooms for a quickie. One concern for calls for equality (as in the OP) are the possibility of using transgenderness as a smokescreen for weird or harmful behavior towards others.

Another related issue is how all Thai boys are exposed to and therefore influenced by a pelthora of transgender influences. During the course of their formative years, when young boys see daily examples of transgendered men dressing like and acting like girls - who are funny and popular, then it can't help but compel many of those boys to become like that. To a large degree, those transgenders are big influences and peer models. Perhaps it's no surprise that a large % of Thai boys grow up to emulate transgenders (studies at Thai schools show the % at upwards to 20%). It would be no surprise if Thailand leads the world in that dept.

20% or more of Thai males becoming transgenders may sit well with some people, but it doesn't sit well with me. It's too high a %. Some who read this might say, "How dare you say any % of transgenders is too high!!" Yes, it may sound prejudiced, but I just think it's a better world when boys are boys and girls are girls, ...when men are men and women are women. I also acknowledge there are oddballs in society, and that can be fine in moderate amounts. For example, every class of students probably has a 'class clown.' What if the whole class or the entire university were class clowns? Similarly, every village has it's 'town drunk.' What if the every person in the village were hopeless drunks? I'm not saying class clowns or village drunks are the same as transgender, I'm just trying to make a comparison of social phenomena.

What a nonsense. Which century do you come from?

Ok, you don't agree, but can you articulate (without calling names) what specifically you don't agree with, and why?

Let's put it this way: A person can be tolerant, maybe even rejoice at boys dressing/acting as girls (and vice versa), but at what percentage of the population does it get overdone? In other words, if 80% if boys acted/dressed like girls would that be ok with you? How about 90% If you think there's no upper limit to how many boys act/dress like girls and girls act/dress like boys, then we certainly don't agree.

Actually, I don't mind if all Thai boys wear nothing but lingerie and paint themselves green and wear garlic headresses, as long as they don't harm others. Though it might be a bit sad for any girls looking for a boyfriend or a future husband.

[brahmburgers]

Show the links please, brahmburgers, of the Thai school studies saying 20 percent of Thai boys identify as ladyboys. I don't believe it is anywhere near that high. So prove it, or admit you can't.

A totally random cross section, honest.

I saw the 'over 20%' in a quote in one of the two major English language newspapers out of Bkk. Sorry, I don't keep clippings of all the newspaper articles I read, nor do I memorize every detail as regards their date, and origin.

However, I did find this tidbit from pinknews.co.uk

http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-8015.html:

a survey conducted last term showed that more than 200 of the school's 2,600 students considered themselves transvestites," said school director Sitiak Sumontha.

...That's nearly 10% and comprises students who openly admitted being transvestites. Such a sensitive question would, in my estimate, be met by denial/secrecy more often than not.

If you were to do a survey of adults at Big C, asking who is unfaithful to their spouse, how many resondents are going to come forth with the truth?

[khunbaobao]

Being a little late to this thread there's not a lot I can add that hasn't already been said, but what I'd like to point out is this: transsexuals are merely one slice (pardon the pun) of the GLBT (gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgendered) community. And...

1) Gays and lesbians aren't asking for "special rights" - just equal rights. The same as heterosexuals (who also don't "ask to be born that way" have.

2) The "statistic" posted early on ("Almost 95% of gay men hate transgenders or being evenly identified with them in any way ") is one person's opinion and at least 100 rai away from being factual. Many people have dislikes and prejudices - I don't like to be around people who refuse to use deodorants, for example - but I don't hate or wish to disassociate myself from them as members of society.

3) Someone said "Do they really need any further encouragement!?" I'd say no, no more than a straight person needs - but they deserve the same treatment and respect that the person who said this deserves.

4) It is NOT - except in very rare cases - a "lifestyle choice" to be gay. Why in the name of all that's holy would an estimated 1 in 4 choose to live a life of fear, discrimination and prejudice?

EVERYONE reading this has met a gay person, and most of you know (or are related to) at least one. Whether they've been comfortable enough to come out to you depends on them and on indications you've given as to if it's "safe".

You don't have to LIKE gay, transgendered OR straight people - but as humans we all need to tolerate our diversity. Let's not even go into prejudice over race, religion, nationality, etc.

And as for the the violence mentioned that was attributed to transsexuals: that's an anecdotal story that should be given no more weight than the 1Kb of bandwidth it took to broadcast it as a blanket truth. I'd suggest there are more cases of violence resulting from women with their Western male clients from Soi Cowboy than there are from roaming gangs of transsexuals.

Live and let live, people. If you don't care for mango, don't eat them - but don't go around cutting down the trees.

Edited November 3, 2010 by cdnvic
link removed - promoting sites in posts not allowed

[Jingthing]

Show the links please, brahmburgers, of the Thai school studies saying 20 percent of Thai boys identify as ladyboys. I don't believe it is anywhere near that high. So prove it, or admit you can't.

A totally random cross section, honest.

I saw the 'over 20%' in a quote in one of the two major English language newspapers out of Bkk. Sorry, I don't keep clippings of all the newspaper articles I read, nor do I memorize every detail as regards their date, and origin.

However, I did find this tidbit from pinknews.co.uk

http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-8015.html:

a survey conducted last term showed that more than 200 of the school's 2,600 students considered themselves transvestites," said school director Sitiak Sumontha.

...That's nearly 10% and comprises students who openly admitted being transvestites. Such a sensitive question would, in my estimate, be met by denial/secrecy more often than not.

If you were to do a survey of adults at Big C, asking who is unfaithful to their spouse, how many resondents are going to come forth with the truth?

I see. Your "proof" is quite wanting. As expected. Amusing song and dance though. BTW, that link is broken.

Next ...

[Jingthing]

Let's put it this way: A person can be tolerant, maybe even rejoice at boys dressing/acting as girls (and vice versa), but at what percentage of the population does it get overdone?

What a totally ridiculous question!

Such numbers are never going to be anywhere near a majority in any culture. It is like worrying about everyone winning the lottery, wouldn't that cause chaos and mass inflation, nobody would be willing to do menial jobs anymore, oh never mind, it's never going to happen!

Such a question really isn't even worth answering. It is based on a false premise, a fantastical triviality.

Even in the world capital of gayness, San Francisco, which has under a million residents, only FIFTEEN PERCENT are gay. Gay people come from all over the world to move there, and yet, still only FIFTEEN PERCENT (source wiki). Now I know boys wearing dresses is not the same thing as being gay, but the same principle applies.

Gay, lesbian, and transgender rights are very serious issues for a lot of people.

Why stoop so low as to ask questions based on false red herring premises?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco

Edited November 3, 2010 by Jingthing

[SweatiePie]

Do you think someone made a comment like yours during the local assessments and that's why the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation didn't fund the projects as the government had hoped?

Actually, gk, they did! In 2007 they gave $1,000,000 to the PDA, which is as close to a "day job" as I have. Research projects? Well, they've done plenty here before; all they are after is guinea pigs and apparently Indians are cheaper - and there are less NGOs around to question the methods used.

I appreciate your honesty and I wasn't specifically having a go at you so much as at two issues which I constantly have with some of the posters here and your posts were perfect examples of them both.

Firstly, many posters here seem convinced that what is an issue for them in their country must also be an issue for those here; far from being the case, the issue here is often the antithesis of that in the west. The position of gays in the military and gay rights in the military is a prime example. In other countries (particularly the States at the moment) the issue is one of gays having equal rights to serve in the military; here, however, it is one of gays having the right not to serve. Of the many gays I know in the military I can't think of one who actually wanted to join (or who wants to stay); the other ranks are there only because they were conscripted, while the officers are there (unfortunately for them for considerably longer) because of family pressure either to continue a family tradition or to "make a man of them".

Secondly, I take issue when Thailand is singled out for criticism unfairly when on the issue under discussion it is no worse than any other country and better than most. Again, your post was a prime example concerning legislation over GRS for those with GID. Legislation in most countries is either the same as in Thailand (following WHO guidelines) or worse, which is why I consider it "germane" - while I said that the situation was better in Britain and France that was as a result of judicial decisions, not legislation. I have nothing against your right to criticise Thailand, and I actually support it, but at the same time I think that sometimes this needs to be put into perspective. Another (worse) example was when I was defending Thailand's position on government funded medical treatment in general and HIV/Aids treatment in particular in another forum; while I agree that Thailand's funding could and should be increased dramatically and that Thailand could easily afford it if only the political will was there (and the politicians and administrators weren't all a bunch of corrupt scumbags!) I felt that it should be compared with the position in the US (where the poster criticising Thailand was from) where such treatment is somewhere between minimal and non-existent.

Fly Navy (better than Walk Sideways!)

[SweatiePie]

As the OP was about transgenders' rights and there is some argument about whether GID (gender identity disorder) is a "mental disorder" or not, I have to admit that after decades of wondering (only occasionally!) I still cannot make up my mind whether it is or not and, if it isn't, just what it is as it certainly isn't "normal".

To avoid giving anyone another "learning experience" I should probably explain that I am not only openly gay but have had GID and am what many here would refer to as a "ladyboy", albeit without any operations.

I find it dificult to classify GID as a mental disorder or illness simply because most mental disorders or illnesses are either treatable with drugs or therapy or identifiable with modern technology - GID isn't. On the other hand if its a physical disorder or illness it should be physically identifiable and treatable, either by drugs or operations - again, it isn't: comparatvely few of those with GID go down the hormones and operations route, and of those that do they are apparently no happier in general with the results than those that don't. For myself I am now perfectly happy with my sexuality which is why I say that I have had GID; while I wouldn't consider myself "cured" I would say that I am either "in relapse" or that the condition is "benign".

Unlike some people its not something I lose an awful lot of sleep about as I think its of as little importance as insisting on "gay marriage" rather than "civil partnership", so I have no problems with simply calling it a "mental condition", which should satisfy everyone but the most pedantic and paranoid.

[animatic]

SweatiePie

Nice to see your lucid and well argued points from someone who knows

from several angles of the given arguments. Refreshing and likely accurate.

I am sure it will give some here night sweats to think about several points,

but... tough tits.

Uh, did you actually mean SWEETIE or SWEATY?

I minor point of curiosity about your nick.

[TAWP]

SweatiePie>> Not to diminish your experience, but when someone is so hurt by their own 'wrong body' that they cannot look [down] when infront of a mirror, cry when the doctor want to see them without clothes etc, then perhaps they are more...'serious' about their feelings regarding this.

[SweatiePie]

TAWP, there are degrees in all medical "conditions".

My main point is that contrary to what many people believe GID doesn't only apply to those who opt for complete GRS - they are actually a minority and in some ways they are the lucky ones, as they usually know what they want to be from the time they are aware of the differences between the genders and they need little or no therapy to be happy with the gender they end up with, while the remainder often spend the rest of their lives in a quandary of doubt and insecurity.

Sweaty or sweetie, Animatic? I meant Sweatie, as its a bit of both - rather like me!

[animatic]

TAWP, there are degrees in all medical "conditions".

My main point is that contrary to what many people believe GID doesn't only apply to those who opt for complete GRS - they are actually a minority and in some ways they are the lucky ones, as they usually know what they want to be from the time they are aware of the differences between the genders and they need little or no therapy to be happy with the gender they end up with, while the remainder often spend the rest of their lives in a quandary of doubt and insecurity.

Sweaty or sweetie, Animatic? I meant Sweatie, as its a bit of both - rather like me!

LOL. Gotcha on all points; P. or K. SweatiePie

If the world were black and white then there would be no doubts about anything

and utterly boring about most all things. No doubt TSGBL people come

in a great many shades of gray... and a number of pastels too I believe.

[tombkk]

Education can play a key role in battling this ignorance and Thailand should review and revise its curriculum in order to fill the gaps regarding this issue.

Here's some education for you; stop parading them around on TV for all to see - namely kids - as if it's normal.

Another related issue is how all Thai boys are exposed to and therefore influenced by a pelthora of transgender influences. During the course of their formative years, when young boys see daily examples of transgendered men dressing like and acting like girls - who are funny and popular, then it can't help but compel many of those boys to become like that. To a large degree, those transgenders are big influences and peer models. Perhaps it's no surprise that a large % of Thai boys grow up to emulate transgenders (studies at Thai schools show the % at upwards to 20%). It would be no surprise if Thailand leads the world in that dept.

Spot on, brahmburgers. Most worrying if one has a son.

I have absolutely no problem with people doing what they want, but why the need to flaunt it and get in people's faces? Just keep it to yourself <deleted>.

Why should gays or transgendered people keep it to themselves? It's normal after all. (Normal in the sense of made by nature, not in the sense of being the norm.)

It's not normal to try to hide facts of life that you personally don't want to see from your children. Please think about it. If you son is gay, he will be unhappy to live a straight life only because he didn't know it was perfectly OK to be gay. Seeing straight people all the time will not make him straight. On the other hand, if the is straight, seeing gay people will not make him gay.

[TAWP]

On the other hand, if the is straight, seeing gay people will not make him gay.

Often it seems that those that are least sure about their own sexuality is the biggest proponents of 'keeping it away from me'-arguments - perhaps because they are afraid they WOULD be made gay (i.e. awake what was latent, always was there).

[brahmburgers]

On the other hand, if the is straight, seeing gay people will not make him gay.

Often it seems that those that are least sure about their own sexuality is the biggest proponents of 'keeping it away from me'-arguments - perhaps because they are afraid they WOULD be made gay (i.e. awake what was latent, always was there).

I suspect I'm in a minority with this view, but I strongly believe that boys' sexual roles are (or can be) influenced by what they see in the media - TV, magazines, movies, peer behavior. Perhaps it's less than 50%, but who can say for sure? I had a post deleted months ago (on Thaivisa) for expressing the same concept, so I have to be careful about what I express on this topic.

I will say that, being a 'lecturer' at a Thai university showed me vividly that: Openly effeminate boys were popular - beyond what they would ordinarily be. Here's the scenario: a boy adopts a very effeminate persona (whether by choice or by being compelled) - very likely that boy (now essentially a girl) gets to hang out with the most popular girls. Why? Because the girls giggle helplessly at his/her every utterance. This is not an isolated phenomena. I saw it in every one of the seven classes I taught. Each class of boys & girls had at least two very effeminate boys. Some classes had three or four (out of roughly 30 students). There may have been others, but I'm just commenting on the ones who were most noticeable. At least two phenomena are happening in such scenarios. #1 all Thai young people, boys and girls, get a steady diet of seeing effeminate men (on TV etc). Those lady boys or whatever you call them are always portrayed as funny/popular and/or attractive via the media. #2 many Thai boys realize that acting effeminate is advantageous to becoming more popular/accepted, especially among the most popular girls in their vicinity. It's a formula that works.

Who knows, if I were growing up in today's Thailand, I might do the same. It's not hard to do. Indeed, I did it once in America. I was 17 years old. About 6 black guys visited from Washington DC (music buddies). For some reason, I assumed an extremely effeminate (and prissy/bossy) persona that night, and had everyone laughing hardily. I was the life of the party for hours. I could have kept it going, and perhaps adapted it as my prime personality, but I didn't. If I had, who knows, perhaps I'd be a big shot on the social circuit, a laugh a minute. What's funnier than a guy acting like a brassy/bitchy lady? ha ha ha, but lo, not my cup of tea.

[phetaroi]

I can define transgender, though even people that can't perfectly define that newfangled word, are entitled to an opinion on the subject. Talk of completely liberal rights for transgenders is too sweeping of a statement. Sure, there should be basic rights for everyone. But it's the specifics that are sticky, because transgenders encompass a wide variety of ways in which people manifest. Example, there's a difference between a woman clerical worker who likes to wear cowboy boots and secretly wishes she were a man - to a man dressed as a woman who haunts the beach street at Pattaya, trying to make a living by cheating guys who take him/her up to their rooms for a quickie. One concern for calls for equality (as in the OP) are the possibility of using transgenderness as a smokescreen for weird or harmful behavior towards others.

Another related issue is how all Thai boys are exposed to and therefore influenced by a pelthora of transgender influences. During the course of their formative years, when young boys see daily examples of transgendered men dressing like and acting like girls - who are funny and popular, then it can't help but compel many of those boys to become like that. To a large degree, those transgenders are big influences and peer models. Perhaps it's no surprise that a large % of Thai boys grow up to emulate transgenders (studies at Thai schools show the % at upwards to 20%). It would be no surprise if Thailand leads the world in that dept.

20% or more of Thai males becoming transgenders may sit well with some people, but it doesn't sit well with me. It's too high a %. Some who read this might say, "How dare you say any % of transgenders is too high!!" Yes, it may sound prejudiced, but I just think it's a better world when boys are boys and girls are girls, ...when men are men and women are women. I also acknowledge there are oddballs in society, and that can be fine in moderate amounts. For example, every class of students probably has a 'class clown.' What if the whole class or the entire university were class clowns? Similarly, every village has it's 'town drunk.' What if the every person in the village were hopeless drunks? I'm not saying class clowns or village drunks are the same as transgender, I'm just trying to make a comparison of social phenomena.

While I understand your perspective, here's what I find odd about it:

First you say, "to a man dressed as a woman who haunts the beach street at Pattaya, trying to make a living by cheating guys who take him/her up to their rooms for a quickie". You appear to be condoning the obvious prostitutes in Pattaya who "haunt" certain streets and make a living robbing their customers.

Second, "weird" gay behavior is bad, but "weird" straight behavior is apparently okay. Or are you saying that only gay people exhibit weird behavior?

Third, to use your number, if children see adults, 20% of whom are gay and 80% of whom are straight, this will lead to them becoming gay?

[phetaroi]

<deleted>! OH PLEEZE! Can these Thai academics and most straights out there first stop lumping gays and transgenders under the same categories!Almost 95% of gay men hate transgenders or being evenly identified with them in any way.

For most people: If you are a male and you like females, then you are heterosexual. If you are a male and you like males or a female who likes females, then you are gay. I cannot figure out why a normal guy would go for something like a trangender? Though it might come as a surprise to most people about my religious views though I am gay, I think that its against God's will to play around with your body and start changing the gender you are born with.

I used to feel pity for transgenders before and was doing some volunteer work for a few groups, both in the region and locally years ago, but I gave up after realising that almost 99% were misfits in almost everyway. In thailand, most of these transgenders like and enjoy their devious livehoods and are beyond salvation. I think that NGOs should be spending their efforts, resources and money helping the more deprived people like orphans, the physically sick, the aged, people with HIV, etc instead of these particular group. In terms of priority, should be wasting our time concentrating on people who have an issue wit the physical sexuality or a normal person who is going through sickness, poverty, issues of being abandoned, natural disasiers, etc?

I do apologise in advance if my personal comments do upset anyone.

An odd post in several ways, but you and I are in agreement about priorities. Let's see, we have 4,000 people dead in the restive deep South, we have a country torn apart by pure politics, and as you mention it -- deprived people who include the physically sick, the aged, people with HIV, poor people in Issan and other parts of the country, Hill-tribers who are essentially non-people, etc...yet the original article is concerned with the rights of a group of people who generally seem pretty free to be themselves in Thailand. Yup...while any society can multitask priorities, this has to be one of the least crucial at this particular time.

[phetaroi]

I'm sorry gents, but I cannot accept that ladyboys and their consorts are part of the heterosexual scene. And I do have something against them personally, though sexually I find them repugnant; they are the source of a much larger percentage of the local crime than their percentage of the population. No, I don't have statistics to back that up, but I have 4 friends robbed in hugger/mugger situations, which is out of all proportion to other crimes.

I have said this before and I will repeat it - putting your favourite sheep in a dress is still bestiality, and putting your boyfriend in a dress is still homosexuality, whether he still has a penis or not, and no matter what he thinks he really is. Homosexuals apparently wish to disown them as well, which brings us to the concept of bisexuality. IMO by interacting with a man who resembles a woman, the bisexual man can pretend that he is still "straight" until he no longer needs the pretence. Bisexuality is much more common and accepted than "pure" homosexuality in many cultures.

It seems to me you're mixing two separate issues. One is crime, such as robbery. The other is what sex a person sees himself or herself as. Robbery is a felony or misdemeanor (those exact terms may not apply in Thailand) and ought to be prosecuted. Whether you see yourself as masculine or feminine ought to be your business.

[housepainter]

The problem with gay rights is confusing it with the unacceptable sex scenes played out on the streets of Pattaya. Until something is done to clean that up, removing most of it at the same time there can be no progress towards the normalisation and acceptance of rights as known in mainstream, law abiding societies.

Thailand, but specifically Pattaya shoots itself int he foot by way of the rather disgusting sights of old men with young girls. Consider the sight of old, closet European homosexuals escaping their heterosexual marriages by way of travelling half way around the world to mince hand in hand with young boys along Central's concourse.

That is unacceptable anywhere in the world. It is disgusting and it is more offensive than the sight of the heterosexuals. The reason being, the latter are without hypocracy. Their sexuality is known. It is not ashamed, hidden, secret.

There does need to be an acceptance of every person's sexuality. But we should not confuse what is morally acceptable with what is not. What we see in Pattaya is open prostitution on the streets, in the bars, in your face. That needs to be stopped. The inflaming of that is the behaviour of the closet homosexual's with young boys.

Give rights by all means. But it's a two way street and those of us with a proper sense of morality, a sense of decency and a desire to see noone sexually exploited should rail against the filth that is Pattaya and it's closet Euro homos.

[Robby nz]

Have to wonder about this Gay buisness, not the business itself but the use of the word.

It has only appeared in the last few years and to me is a complete missnonar.

Gay in my old dictionary means happy, cheerfull, fun loving playful.

The homosexuals I have known, and there have been quite a few over the years, have been anything but gay and the old fashioned queer suited most of them much better.

There seems little dout that the word was introduced by the homosexual comunity in an attempt to make their state, for want of a better word, more acceptable.

But more acceptable to who? To the young maybe, to a young male who isnt sure just what he should be or be doing.

Being gay surely must be more appealing than being queer.

However without that incentive would he have grown to be a normal hetrosexual?

Edited November 8, 2010 by Robby nz

[Ijustwannateach]

On the other hand, if the is straight, seeing gay people will not make him gay.

Often it seems that those that are least sure about their own sexuality is the biggest proponents of 'keeping it away from me'-arguments - perhaps because they are afraid they WOULD be made gay (i.e. awake what was latent, always was there).

I suspect I'm in a minority with this view, but I strongly believe that boys' sexual roles are (or can be) influenced by what they see in the media - TV, magazines, movies, peer behavior. Perhaps it's less than 50%, but who can say for sure? I had a post deleted months ago (on Thaivisa) for expressing the same concept, so I have to be careful about what I express on this topic.

I will say that, being a 'lecturer' at a Thai university showed me vividly that: Openly effeminate boys were popular - beyond what they would ordinarily be. Here's the scenario: a boy adopts a very effeminate persona (whether by choice or by being compelled) - very likely that boy (now essentially a girl) gets to hang out with the most popular girls. Why? Because the girls giggle helplessly at his/her every utterance. This is not an isolated phenomena. I saw it in every one of the seven classes I taught. Each class of boys & girls had at least two very effeminate boys. Some classes had three or four (out of roughly 30 students). There may have been others, but I'm just commenting on the ones who were most noticeable. At least two phenomena are happening in such scenarios. #1 all Thai young people, boys and girls, get a steady diet of seeing effeminate men (on TV etc). Those lady boys or whatever you call them are always portrayed as funny/popular and/or attractive via the media. #2 many Thai boys realize that acting effeminate is advantageous to becoming more popular/accepted, especially among the most popular girls in their vicinity. It's a formula that works.

Who knows, if I were growing up in today's Thailand, I might do the same. It's not hard to do. Indeed, I did it once in America. I was 17 years old. About 6 black guys visited from Washington DC (music buddies). For some reason, I assumed an extremely effeminate (and prissy/bossy) persona that night, and had everyone laughing hardily. I was the life of the party for hours. I could have kept it going, and perhaps adapted it as my prime personality, but I didn't. If I had, who knows, perhaps I'd be a big shot on the social circuit, a laugh a minute. What's funnier than a guy acting like a brassy/bitchy lady? ha ha ha, but lo, not my cup of tea.

Several corrections to your very limited experience of homosexuality in Thailand:

1. The campy persona to which you refer is a very small tip of the gay iceberg. You would have no idea who most gay people were on sight (most likely, including me).

2. The teensy, weensy logical flaw in your 'gays are influencing our children to become gay' is that all of these gay kids had parents who were probably nominally heterosexual, for awhile anyway- thus the reproduction- and guess what? They would be pretty big influences. Considering the IMMENSE pressure (which most straight people, yourself obviously included) to conform to heterosexual standards for behaviour in lifestyle- as evidenced in MOST movies, MOST advertisements, and NEARLY ALL public idealisations of lifestyle, as well as MOST private pressures from family and friends- it is amazing that anyone becomes gay at all unless overwhelming internal forces of attraction compel us (as they do, same as the forces which attract heterosexuals to each other). When I see a straight person using this argument, it usually seems to be projection- *I* am threatened by gay presences, so please take them away from *ME* (but I'll use the excuse of children to do my dirty work)- self-directed homophobia is the worst. And don't get started about gay Thai movies- there have been almost none (I don't count the kathoey comedy dramas in this sense, as they do not represent the lifestyles or the coming-out issues facing the vast hidden majority of non-obvious gay men).

3. Your notions of what constitutes masculinity and femininity are not universal; in fact, American constructions of them are particularly brutal and dysfunctional (in my view). In *most* of the world, men can be far more affectionate towards each other than European-derived American men are allowed to be culturally, and emotional functionality is not viewed as 'sissy.' That was true as well of many of the North American cultures we replaced.

In short, you are confusing the broad face of homosexuality in Thailand with the tiny, flamboyant minority who are out to get attention, because those are all you know about.

I will not accept any further comments on this thread that imply that the presence of homosexuals causes harm to children. Post carefully.

[phetaroi]

Have to wonder about this Gay buisness, not the business itself but the use of the word.

It has only appeared in the last few years and to me is a complete missnonar.

Gay in my old dictionary means happy, cheerfull, fun loving playful.

The homosexuals I have known, and there have been quite a few over the years, have been anything but gay and the old fashioned queer suited most of them much better.

There seems little dout that the word was introduced by the homosexual comunity in an attempt to make their state, for want of a better word, more acceptable.

But more acceptable to who? To the young maybe, to a young male who isnt sure just what he should be or be doing.

Being gay surely must be more appealing than being queer.

However without that incentive would he have grown to be a normal hetrosexual?

I suggest you go and search Wikipedia for the origin of the term "gay". You'll find out just how wrong you are. My first recollection...no, let me rephrase that...the oldest reference to it that I have personally seen is in the old Cary Grant film "Bringing Up Baby", and that dates to 1938.

But before you shove down our throats how happy all straight people are, I'd remind you that in America (as an example), the straight divorce rate is as follows: "50% percent of first marriages, 67% of second and 74% of third marriages end in divorce". My family falls right in line with those trends, and I have personally seen the unhappiness, anger, and bitterness involved...with all those straight people.

[jayboy]

Your notions of what constitutes masculinity and femininity are not universal; in fact, American constructions of them are particularly brutal and dysfunctional (in my view). In *most* of the world, men can be far more affectionate towards each other than European-derived American men are allowed to be culturally, and emotional functionality is not viewed as 'sissy.' That was true as well of many of the North American cultures we replaced.

Picking up this point, an American friend of mine once told me that in Texas a gay person was defined as someone who liked girls more than football!

[ableguy]

There is clearly severe discrimination faced by Thai sexual minorities. However, one thing the Nation fails to mention is that Thai sexual minorities THEMSELVES must face some of the blame for the lack of national progress on this issue. Thai sexual minorities should not wait timidly to be gifted equal rights and treatment under Thai law (for example, equal marriage and immigration rights). Rather, they need to advocate for themselves and work at it. If they are mocked and viciously disrespected in Thai entertainment and news media, and they are, is a Nation editorial going to change that? I think not. Thai sexual minorities if they hope to make real progress need to look to the west for examples of long term strategies to organize politically that over time can and do create social change and progress for sexual minorities.

Jingthing, I am not saying things don't need improving but what country do you hail from? I really believe homosexuals in Thailand as well as transgender folks have much more equal opportunity as straights in Thailand than many other places. I don't believe you will find many ladyboys working as a salesperson at the local mall in most western countries. This is the same for gays who openly display their sexuality. Certainly in the US you will not find many outwardly gay acting people being hired by many companies outside very liberal areas.

As for the media making fun ... I don't see it that often but honestly don't watch that much Thai TV. Even though the USA has tried hard to go politically correct, it is still OK to do satire on people who act openly gay UNLESS you infer that all gays act this way. Again, being gay doesn't mean you need to project your gayness to every person you run across.

Until the medical industry can truly make a man into a women (or vice versa) and we cannot so easily tell a person has gone through a transformation there will always be a large portion of folks who feel uncomfortable dealing in a business sense with these folks. Bottom line is a radical thing to do that most of us cannot relate to.

Do you know there a number of people who have surgeries to make themselves have cat or dog features because they feel they relate more to these animals?

Should a business owner be forced to hire the person in this photo as salesperson when clearly they will make many potential customers uncomfortable and create an image of that company the company doesn't wish to have?

It is in a way sad we choose to make jokes about people who are different but many of these jokes are funny and why they are told ... these people choose to advertise they are different.

To be clear, I fully support people being gay and actually believe it is an evolutionary path to control population but I am also realistic in knowing that advertising your differences from mainstream society is generally going to decrease your opportunities. The same would also be true for somebody who tattoos the words "I hate gays" on their forehead. In fact, they would be discriminated against more and would be doing little different than those who are gay and want everyone to know when it is simply not relevant in terms of the business world or even walking down the street.

Who is the cute chick ?

[cdnvic]

I had to delete another post where the poster replied within another poster's quotes. Time after time we repeat not to do this. It's confusing and leads to people being mis-quoted.

30) Do not modify someone else's post in your quoted reply, either with font or color changes, added emoticons, or altered wording. (From forum rules)

[animatic]

Have to wonder about this Gay buisness, not the business itself but the use of the word.

It has only appeared in the last few years and to me is a complete missnonar.

Gay in my old dictionary means happy, cheerfull, fun loving playful.

The homosexuals I have known, and there have been quite a few over the years, have been anything but gay and the old fashioned queer suited most of them much better.

There seems little dout that the word was introduced by the homosexual comunity in an attempt to make their state, for want of a better word, more acceptable.

But more acceptable to who? To the young maybe, to a young male who isnt sure just what he should be or be doing.

Being gay surely must be more appealing than being queer.

However without that incentive would he have grown to be a normal hetrosexual?

It's not so much and agenda to entice more young men to join them

to become gay, but to go through daily life without daily fear. Fear not be beaten up, killer or screamed at by those who are afraid of them for their differentness and just be left to live their lives and find love with someone who loves them back.

The right to live your life differently than the norm,

and not die for that differentiation.

What incentive does a homosexual have to grow into a normal heterosexual?

Well in most cases none at all.

The name or label gay is not the important part,

not being called derisive names, and ridiculed or worse is the important part,

and the world around them acknowledging their existence as

a normal percentage of the human organism.

I have worked in different businesses with hundreds of gays,

sometimes in mostly gay environments, it's not the environment turns you

one way or the other, but it does give you acceptance that they are people,

just like you, who sleep with people you don't sleep with.

I note that most people don't sleep with more than a super minuscule

portion of mankind,so that is leaves more than enough people that

they don't sleep with to make the portion that sleep gay, just another

minor demographic they don't sleep with also.

Gay rights,

is about the rest of us over coming ingrained and LEARNED fear.

Edited November 8, 2010 by animatic

[Ijustwannateach]

You rock, dude...

[tombkk]

On the other hand, if the is straight, seeing gay people will not make him gay.

Often it seems that those that are least sure about their own sexuality is the biggest proponents of 'keeping it away from me'-arguments - perhaps because they are afraid they WOULD be made gay (i.e. awake what was latent, always was there).

I suspect I'm in a minority with this view, but I strongly believe that boys' sexual roles are (or can be) influenced by what they see in the media - TV, magazines, movies, peer behavior. Perhaps it's less than 50%, but who can say for sure? I had a post deleted months ago (on Thaivisa) for expressing the same concept, so I have to be careful about what I express on this topic.

Sorry for shortening your interesting post. But here may be some news for you:

Both of my parents were straight. I grew up with straight class-mates in perfectly straight environment. For some reason, it didn't make me straight at all.

I used to have a very good straight male friend. He enjoyed going out to the gay scene, as he liked the way that women were not treated as sex objects, everybody treated each other with more respect, and so on. (His words.) However, he wasn't gay and could never fall in love with a guy.

What makes you think that a boy exposed to the reality that homosexuality exists will make him gay? If you think *you* (not any hypothetical boy) would have liked to try a relationship with a guy but shied away because he was afraid he would stick with it, think about what you are saying about yourself.