What Are You Guys Talking About?

[sarahsbloke]

To people doing stuff with their wives all the time. Are you men or mice ? Does your wife wipe your ass for you.

Mine wants to, but I won't let her!

She also wants to shower me, cut my hair, trim my toenails, pop my zits, extract unwanted nasal hairs, buy my clothes, vet my giks .... the list is endless.

I do admit to letting her buy and cook the food and clean the house. But you have to draw the line somewhere.

[Loz]

My reach is deep, y'all

[Naam]

The only official language of Thailand is Thai. If you live here, learn it.

every country has one or more official languages. if i had to learn the official languages of every country i lived i'd be still busy learning languages. as it is not possible to conduct a meaningful conversation with somebody who does not master either english, german, french or spanish i never deemed it necessary to learn thai except for a dozen polite phrases.

now go ahead and call me an arrogant àrsehole, i don't mind. perhaps i deserve it :jap:

[sarahsbloke]

Depends on your choice of partner but what woman with half a brain really wants to have to do everything for the other half. I know my wife doesn't and I wouldn't want to have to do her shit as well as my own. Got enough to deal with with two kids. Get a wife not a babysitter. I am amazed when I see grown men being treated like the kids.

I see where your cynicism comes from and you definitely see it in a lot of relationships where some guys need to wake up and see what a manipulative little bit@# the wife is. It is also interesting to note when some so called " angel " turns out to have a mouth like a sewer and every other word is " I " this or " I " that. I even knew of one bloke whose wife called him "mung" when she was talking about him to my wife. He thought the sun shone out of her ass! Like you said " Ignorance is bliss " !!!

1) It's not about you wanting them to do stuff, it's about their traditional values of serving their husband. Their marriage vow is to serve.

2) I think you mean 'man' (insulting version of he/she), 'mung' is the insulting version of your.

(although 'man' may be acceptable when used by close friends)

3) 'I' is a word used to precede (and enhance) an insult to a male, 'ee' is a word used to precede (and enhance) an insult to a female

for example

we refer to our hated female neighbour (an ex-pattaya, potty mouth) as 'ee naa bpen lum' ...... roughly translated as 'it's face is comically pitted' (actually a large number of people in the moo-baan call her that)

I personally find, 'lung', 'papa', and 'kon gair' and 'farang' to be far more offensive if used by a lover/partner to describe me.

Edited November 1, 2010 by sarahsbloke

[Loz]

The hair splitting has begun...

Bottom line. A woman who calls her husband by rude names may be "serving" him as the vow declares. maybe he's happy not to be respected by his wife. Maybe he's used to it. BUT, and its a big BUT, if he DOESN'T KNOW, can it hurt him?

I refer you to my previous observation:

Ignorance is bliss.

[GarryP]

There are some classics here. I have had people look at me with blank looks on their faces when I speak Thai. Like someone said, they look at you and see a foreigner and as a result become incapable of understanding you. They are sure you are speaking English to them even when you are speaking Thai. Now my Thai is quite good but this still happens. I have actually said to people, "I will speak Thai", and from then on they understand everythinbg you say. Without that introduction though, you could be speaking Martian as far as they know.

The most surreal experience was also in a bank. I was speaking Thai and the bank clerk was speaking English. We both knew what the other was saying and the transaction was completed without any problems.

[bermondburi]

Depends on your choice of partner but what woman with half a brain really wants to have to do everything for the other half. I know my wife doesn't and I wouldn't want to have to do her shit as well as my own. Got enough to deal with with two kids. Get a wife not a babysitter. I am amazed when I see grown men being treated like the kids.

I see where your cynicism comes from and you definitely see it in a lot of relationships where some guys need to wake up and see what a manipulative little bit@# the wife is. It is also interesting to note when some so called " angel " turns out to have a mouth like a sewer and every other word is " I " this or " I " that. I even knew of one bloke whose wife called him "mung" when she was talking about him to my wife. He thought the sun shone out of her ass! Like you said " Ignorance is bliss " !!!

1) It's not about you wanting them to do stuff, it's about their traditional values of serving their husband. Their marriage vow is to serve.

2) I think you mean 'man' (insulting version of he/she), 'mung' is the insulting version of your.

(although 'man' may be acceptable when used by close friends)

3) 'I' is a word used to precede (and enhance) an insult to a male, 'ee' is a word used to precede (and enhance) an insult to a female

for example

we refer to our hated female neighbour (an ex-pattaya, potty mouth) as 'ee naa bpen lum' ...... roughly translated as 'it's face is comically pitted' (actually a large number of people in the moo-baan call her that)

I personally find, 'lung', 'papa', and 'kon gair' and 'farang' to be far more offensive if used by a lover/partner to describe me.

No. I wasn't mistaken and "man" is the pronoun for " it " ,which when used on a person is not very nice. Who wants to be called " it ". She definitely used " mung". I think I know what she said. You can use it like this, " mung bai nai? " = where are you going you fuc_ker ? or something like that so its use is okay when talking about someone in a linguistic sense although not very polite.

As for "I" and " e" .I'm not going to go into the male and female thing but for the benefit of readers of my previous post I though I would keep it simple.

What's wrong with "lung, papa etc " . It's better than you ______ c@#t or words to that effect. Bit of a sensitive soul are we ?

There's serving and there's serving and I can go to buy a pair of socks by myself.

[bermondburi]

There are some classics here. I have had people look at me with blank looks on their faces when I speak Thai. Like someone said, they look at you and see a foreigner and as a result become incapable of understanding you. They are sure you are speaking English to them even when you are speaking Thai. Now my Thai is quite good but this still happens. I have actually said to people, "I will speak Thai", and from then on they understand everythinbg you say. Without that introduction though, you could be speaking Martian as far as they know.

The most surreal experience was also in a bank. I was speaking Thai and the bank clerk was speaking English. We both knew what the other was saying and the transaction was completed without any problems.

That's not that strange. Although the other way round me and my wife tend to stick to our own languages when speaking to each other. I'm sure people listening in wonder how we communicate as we are speaking different languages.

[Loz]

Time to come clean. I don't get out much.

Saturday night I went for a bite with a golf buddy as it had been a while. We went into Korat and to a garden restaurant. The waitress came over and spoke very passable English to us. I was quite taken aback! I am not used to being served in English and I genuinely had to think harder than if I was just dealing in Thai. That felt strange.

I think preparedness for any eventuality is the way here.

[Tod Daniels]

The thai habit of "switching off their ears" as far as understanding thai when face to face with a foreigner is one of the most vexing traits thais exhibit here (and I've come across a fair few!).

It is frustrating to walk up to a thai, address them in thai, and have them stare blankly at you. Now I freely admit I speak thai with a foreign accent (after all I'm a foreigner ). I often start conversations with thais by asking them point blank right outta the gate in thai; "Can you speak/understand thai?", of course they always answer in the affirmative. I then reply, "Good, so can I, now this is what I need done. ..."

And not to piss on any of the illustrious posers <sic> , errr posters parade in their off topic rant about impolite words when referring to others BUT..

As recently as 25 years ago, even in central Bangkok it was neither impolite nor rude to call yourself กู, to call someone else มึง, and to refer to almost anyone as มัน. This has changed to some degree, but those words are still very much colloquially in use in an intimate family setting or with a circle of very close friends. It is my experience, in situations like I just outlined, the words carry NO negative connotation in any way shape or form and are just pronouns used in a familiar setting with people who are well known to the speaker. (In fact, it's not uncommon to hear older thais (55+ y/o) consistently use these pronouns as they were commonly spoken when they were growing up). Now if the above mentioned pronouns (which have morphed into carrying an impolite meaning nowadays) are said to a complete stranger, to someone who isn't a very close friend, or if they have anything negatively tagged on afterwards, then yes, I agree, they're totally inappropriate.

And the word อี when referring negatively about women is just as common as the word ไอ้ when referring negatively about men, they are negative trait emphasizing prefixes much like the word ขี้ is when placed in front of a descriptive word.

As An Aside; I know of a small thai company which has a service of providing 'mobile translators' for foreigners needing a fluent thai/engrish - engrish/thai speaker to facilitate what ever they're tryin to get done. Having seen them in action on more than one occasion, I can say that company went out of its way to make sure their thai translators DON'T engage in the almost obligatory yet often times mindless idle chatter which goes on in a normal thai-thai interaction. In fact, they're almost too blunt, too to the point, and too matter of fact, given the ultra-politeness that often surrounds even a meaningless thai conversation, but man do they get results.

[Loz]

Thanks for the tutorial TD.

That firm sounds good. I wonder what the charging system is? the more words the less pay? So everything is concise. That would be a great leap forwards!

[bermondburi]

The thai habit of "switching off their ears" as far as understanding thai when face to face with a foreigner is one of the most vexing traits thais exhibit here (and I've come across a fair few!).

It is frustrating to walk up to a thai, address them in thai, and have them stare blankly at you. Now I freely admit I speak thai with a foreign accent (after all I'm a foreigner ). I often start conversations with thais by asking them point blank right outta the gate in thai; "Can you speak/understand thai?", of course they always answer in the affirmative. I then reply, "Good, so can I, now this is what I need done. ..."

And not to piss on any of the illustrious posers <sic> , errr posters parade in their off topic rant about impolite words when referring to others BUT..

As recently as 25 years ago, even in central Bangkok it was neither impolite nor rude to call yourself กู, to call someone else มึง, and to refer to almost anyone as มัน. This has changed to some degree, but those words are still very much colloquially in use in an intimate family setting or with a circle of very close friends. It is my experience, in situations like I just outlined, the words carry NO negative connotation in any way shape or form and are just pronouns used in a familiar setting with people who are well known to the speaker. (In fact, it's not uncommon to hear older thais (55+ y/o) consistently use these pronouns as they were commonly spoken when they were growing up). Now if the above mentioned pronouns (which have morphed into carrying an impolite meaning nowadays) are said to a complete stranger, to someone who isn't a very close friend, or if they have anything negatively tagged on afterwards, then yes, I agree, they're totally inappropriate.

And the word อี when referring negatively about women is just as common as the word ไอ้ when referring negatively about men, they are negative trait emphasizing prefixes much like the word ขี้ is when placed in front of a descriptive word.

As An Aside; I know of a small thai company which has a service of providing 'mobile translators' for foreigners needing a fluent thai/engrish - engrish/thai speaker to facilitate what ever they're tryin to get done. Having seen them in action on more than one occasion, I can say that company went out of its way to make sure their thai translators DON'T engage in the almost obligatory yet often times mindless idle chatter which goes on in a normal thai-thai interaction. In fact, they're almost too blunt, too to the point, and too matter of fact, given the ultra-politeness that often surrounds even a meaningless thai conversation, but man do they get results.

You raise a couple of interesting points and you might be on to something when you talk about the older generation. Thinking about "man " in particular my wife is always having a go at my MIL when she visits for calling my kids that. So maybe the way language is used does change over time.

I also find it interesting how you raise the point that depending on who you're speaking to words carry a different level of meaning. Obviously if I call my mate who I have known for years a cu#% then it is different to calling a stranger a cu#$ and I'm liable to get a smack in the mouth. But even with my friend it would be a good indicator of the language I used on an everyday basis and possibly my character. The language you use does tell a person a lot about you. If I was talking to a friend about another friend and said that " that wanke_r has gone to Tesco " it's a bit different to having a laugh with the said friend and calling him a wanke_r in a jokey way. Do you see what I mean.

You mention how colloquially these words might be still in use in an intimate family setting or a close circle of friends but I would disagree with that in that that has not been my experience within my own Thai family or other houses I have been round. My wife or other family members would never dream of using " mung " with another family member unless there was a big fuc_king problem. It would be very rude to do so.

Maybe my Thai family is super polite. Who knows. Don't think so though. They're a pretty normal bunch of people covering a range of economic groups and occupations.

[bermondburi]

Some interesting posts. Definitely learn the language. I would say that it took me four years to gain the required level of fluency and now after twelve years of living here and six years of marriage I never have any problems in Thai. Very rarely do I have to repeat myself. I had no formal learning as such. Just years of saying the same fuc_king words over and over again thousands of times. The same conversations over and over again with the details getting more and more as the years go by. I can only presume that it is true what they say and that practice does make perfect ( not that I'm saying I'm perfect but you get my drift ). Without knowing how exactly I just think that after a while ( X many years ) you just get it right.

To people doing stuff with their wives all the time. Are you men or mice ? Does your wife wipe your ass for you. Start doing stuff for yourself and your life here will improve and you will have a lot more control over what happens here. Knowledge is power.

Regarding the translation. I think you can do fairly direct translation. Some things don't translate too well and a Thai or English word might have a long winded equal. I do this with my children all the time. They tend to speak Thai to me alot although it is getting better. Whatever they say to me I translate it and make them say it again in English. It's not too hard. I would say to the OP maybe you should choose your interpreter with more care. Also, does the interpreter actually know what they are talking about. Not making stereotypes but a woman in a garage going over an engine problem ?

Last point. But on having children here the way Thai people talk to you and treat you totally changes. Thais tend to see that you have bought into the country and as such are some kind of shareholder ( albeit one with no voting rights ha ha ha ) and as a result of this they kind of know that you must speak Thai to some level. Especially when said child is yabbering away at you ten to the dozen.

I understand where you are coming from; obviously speaking the language is the cure. I am working on it and I have gotten a lot better, but it is going to be while longer before I can do the technical speak, kow jai mai?

But what I am getting at here is the problem with practice of translation. There is always going to be someone who needs a translator and what I was observing is that there doesn't seem to be any way to get your point across without the two Thai speakers having a meandering chat. In a perfect situation the translator shouldn't need to know anything about the subject; they should just be the telephone. If I know what I am talking about why shouldn't I have a full part in the conversation instead of having two people guessing at what I really mean.

It is almost as if the two Thais need to work it all out for me without asking me any questions, I guess it is that face thing getting in there and messing things up.

Thais are just chatty people I guess. You know the whole asking every question thing. They're probably going over your whole personal life in detail. Your salary etc. pension plans. life insurance. weekly beer intake. do you have a brother / cousin / father / son etc. can you eat spicy food ? do you exercise ? smoke blah blah blah

[CheGuava]

-Can anyone relate?

No I can't. I speak the language of the country I live in. If I am in a country where I don't speak the language then I get a competent translator.

[GuestHouse]

And not to piss on any of the illustrious posers <sic> , errr posters parade in their off topic rant about impolite words when referring to others BUT..

As recently as 25 years ago, even in central Bangkok it was neither impolite nor rude to call yourself กู, to call someone else มึง, and to refer to almost anyone as มัน. This has changed to some degree, but those words are still very much colloquially in use in an intimate family setting or with a circle of very close friends. It is my experience, in situations like I just outlined, the words carry NO negative connotation in any way shape or form and are just pronouns used in a familiar setting with people who are well known to the speaker. (In fact, it's not uncommon to hear older thais (55+ y/o) consistently use these pronouns as they were commonly spoken when they were growing up). Now if the above mentioned pronouns (which have morphed into carrying an impolite meaning nowadays) are said to a complete stranger, to someone who isn't a very close friend, or if they have anything negatively tagged on afterwards, then yes, I agree, they're totally inappropriate.

I work with Thai professionals who are predominantly in their late twenties to late thirties all graduated from the top five universities and all solidly middle class - The terms you refer to are in constant use in the office I work in and as you mention neither impolite or rude - However they use these terms amongst their close associates and only when in 'light conversation' - in the event that any discussion involving different points of view is taking place these terms are dropped and the more formal pronouns are adopted.

Observing the switch in language use is an object lesson on how sensitive Thais are to avoiding conflict.

I've witnessed foreigners using these terms - in almost every case they've caused offence.

So while I'd say these terms are in daily use their use requires extreme caution and far better language skills / skills in reading Thai cultural mores than most foreigners have achieved.

[Loz]

And not to piss on any of the illustrious posers <sic> , errr posters parade in their off topic rant about impolite words when referring to others BUT..

As recently as 25 years ago, even in central Bangkok it was neither impolite nor rude to call yourself กู, to call someone else มึง, and to refer to almost anyone as มัน. This has changed to some degree, but those words are still very much colloquially in use in an intimate family setting or with a circle of very close friends. It is my experience, in situations like I just outlined, the words carry NO negative connotation in any way shape or form and are just pronouns used in a familiar setting with people who are well known to the speaker. (In fact, it's not uncommon to hear older thais (55+ y/o) consistently use these pronouns as they were commonly spoken when they were growing up). Now if the above mentioned pronouns (which have morphed into carrying an impolite meaning nowadays) are said to a complete stranger, to someone who isn't a very close friend, or if they have anything negatively tagged on afterwards, then yes, I agree, they're totally inappropriate.

I work with Thai professionals who are predominantly in their late twenties to late thirties all graduated from the top five universities and all solidly middle class - The terms you refer to are in constant use in the office I work in and as you mention neither impolite or rude - However they use these terms amongst their close associates and only when in 'light conversation' - in the event that any discussion involving different points of view is taking place these terms are dropped and the more formal pronouns are adopted.

Observing the switch in language use is an object lesson on how sensitive Thais are to avoiding conflict.

I've witnessed foreigners using these terms - in almost every case they've caused offence.

So while I'd say these terms are in daily use their use requires extreme caution and far better language skills / skills in reading Thai cultural mores than most foreigners have achieved.

I'd support that. In England for example, reprimanding a child you might ask, "didn't your parents teach you any manners?" However, here the only way that can be interpreted is as an insult to one's parents. It will cause massive offense. So while learning the language, one must be mindful of how and when one uses it. Now I use it in a jokey way with older students in fun, but would never reprimand with it. Same students taught me phrases kids use like, "goo ja katurp na mung" but we only use them in fun even though its pretty strong language. cultural sensitivity is perhaps underrated by some (s)expats.

[sarahsbloke]

No. I wasn't mistaken and "man" is the pronoun for " it " ,which when used on a person is not very nice. Who wants to be called " it ". She definitely used " mung". I think I know what she said. You can use it like this, " mung bai nai? " = where are you going you fuc_ker ? or something like that so its use is okay when talking about someone in a linguistic sense although not very polite.

What I was trying to point out was when two friends are talking together, there will be two partners to talk about.

If your wifes friend was saying 'man', she could be insulting her husband.

If your wifes friend was saying 'mung', she could have been insulting YOU.

Also the translation of words like man, mung, etc. is not very exact as dictionaries tend to 'gloss over' swear words.

Our English swear words usually have very little literal meaning, the one you posted, what does it actually mean, nothing, it's just a 'bad word'.

If she had said 'pua mung bai nai' she would most definately be insulting you ....

Thais often 'assume' rather than 'specify' the sentence subject, which often makes it hard for us westerners to fully grasp who they are talking about.

Edited November 1, 2010 by sarahsbloke

[Kilgore Trout]

Yes,

Have you looked at a Thai Web page and pressed the translate button and try and understand the meaning. Seldom makes sense, same when l try talk something over with the mrs, doesn't make sense to her. So end up going back to pigeon English, which some here have ridiculed for doing.

Why don't one of you properly learn the other's language?

Surely if she is your life partner you would want to be able to converse fluently.

[Kilgore Trout]

Thais often 'assume' rather than 'specify' the sentence subject, which often makes it hard for us westerners to fully grasp who they are talking about.
[/quote]

I agree, my wife looks at me like I dont understand Thai sometimes and I'm like "I understood every word you said but I don't know who the hel_l you are talking about"

Conversely sometimes she speaks English the same way and I tell her you have to tell me what you are talking about; it will be an extension of a sentence from 5 minutes ago with different conversation in between and she expects me to know what on earth she is referring to

[sarahsbloke]

Thais often 'assume' rather than 'specify' the sentence subject, which often makes it hard for us westerners to fully grasp who they are talking about.
[/quote]

I agree, my wife looks at me like I dont understand Thai sometimes and I'm like "I understood every word you said but I don't know who the hel_l you are talking about"

Conversely sometimes she speaks English the same way and I tell her you have to tell me what you are talking about; it will be an extension of a sentence from 5 minutes ago with different conversation in between and she expects me to know what on earth she is referring to

Ha Ha

My wife and I have had exactly that same conversation ....... many times.

[escaped]

As a luk krueng, when I lived in the US, I would never had dreamed of trying to speak Thai to anyone there. I grew up there, and have an American accent, but I was often told to go "back to FILL IN THE BLANK WITH COUNTRY OF CHOICE" based only on the way I looked.

I wouldn't dream of living here and not learning the language, or any country for that matter. We are not here as conquerors, bending the local culture and language to our needs. If you live here, you owe it to your host country to learn the language. How would you react if you were in your country and someone became upset because you didn't understand them speaking in some other language? The only official language of Thailand is Thai. If you live here, learn it.

I may be coming off as harsh, but I never get angry at someone who doesn't understand my often off-tonal Thai. That is my problem, not theirs.

You mean as in, someone using a language that is worldwide accepted as to be the No.1 business language?

[bermondburi]

No. I wasn't mistaken and "man" is the pronoun for " it " ,which when used on a person is not very nice. Who wants to be called " it ". She definitely used " mung". I think I know what she said. You can use it like this, " mung bai nai? " = where are you going you fuc_ker ? or something like that so its use is okay when talking about someone in a linguistic sense although not very polite.

What I was trying to point out was when two friends are talking together, there will be two partners to talk about.

If your wifes friend was saying 'man', she could be insulting her husband.

If your wifes friend was saying 'mung', she could have been insulting YOU.

Also the translation of words like man, mung, etc. is not very exact as dictionaries tend to 'gloss over' swear words.

Our English swear words usually have very little literal meaning, the one you posted, what does it actually mean, nothing, it's just a 'bad word'.

If she had said 'pua mung bai nai' she would most definately be insulting you ....

Thais often 'assume' rather than 'specify' the sentence subject, which often makes it hard for us westerners to fully grasp who they are talking about.

Don't know why I'm bothering to reply to this but since I've got nothing better to do, just to set the record straight once and for all. My name is not Kevin and when the name Kevin pops up in conversation umpteen times with no mention of me whatsoever then I think I know who is being talked about. Now I'm sure you can tell me I didn't understand what was going on blah blah blah but the fact of the matter is I know what was said and later on that day my wife was talking about how she couldn't believe her friend had been talking about her husband ( not me) in such a way. There were other things in the conversation apart from that and my wife speaks fluent Thai so she would know what was said. I suppose she's telling lies to me now as well is she ?

[Loz]

that's another chunky topic...

[bermondburi]

that's another chunky topic...

It's a Yorkie bar of a topic.

[Loz]

What, you mean, One Chunk at a time?

[tim armstrong]

Bermondburi for president!

Yes on all counts. HOWEVER....

The flip side of "Knowledge is Power" is that, " Ignorance is Bliss"

I think more people "here" are looking for bliss because they have learned, in a relationship with a woman, power is an illusion!

Language gives you more power, but does she really want you to have that power. The booty aspect to the relationship WILL eventually wear thin. She knows that. So here insurance is your dependence on her. If you are fluent in Thai, that weakens her policy value. Then she might have to start giving you kids...

Cynical? ME!!!

Loz, So well said, with a woman.... power is an illusion! I'm having a 3rd go now to learn Thai properly, as my good Thai friends get a bit annoyed with my slow progress. Claiming to be old and feeble, doesn't seem to work with them. ..And yes I get a bit annoyed at myself and sometimes others, about what I don't understand.

While watching a quite good Thai variety concert on DVD recently, my wife kept translating throughout, while I just wanted to enjoy the music. -frustrating, but well intentioned on her part.

[keestha]

Very nice thread.

No matter how well you learn Thai, as a non Asian foreigner you will always be at a disadvantage because people who don't know you, will always assume that you don't speak Thai and that you will be speaking English to them. Going to shops, banks, government offices and so on, I learned first to say "sawasdee kap" and then saying something simple in Thai very slowly like "could I ask you for information" - and then usually the switch will click, they will understand that I do speak Thai. So unlike when I am using English, German or French which are all foreign languages to me, using one of these languages I will start blasting away full speed right away.

But also, no matter how well you learn to speak Thai, some persons will understand you far less well then others, and this can be fairly extreme. About 5949 times I stopped at a gasstation saying in Thai "1000 Baht worth of gas and a VAT receipt please", but not long ago the attendant working at a gasstation in Phuket looked at me like I was speaking John the Baptist's motherlanguage when I was delivering my familiar line.

Edited November 3, 2010 by keestha