Custody -Thai Laws On Children With Dual Citizenship

[bina]

ok, im asking for a girlfriend of mine:

she is thai with israeli citizenship (from previous farang husband). now has thai boyfriend (acknowleged partner or whatever its called in english, since they arent married)

he is thai foreign worker, here now with temp. resident visa that is renewable yearly based on them living together

the child was born in israel and has israeli citizenship, israeli birth cert., and registered also in thailand, wiht thai birth cert. ; the father listed as her father on the birth certificate.

due to complex rulings and israeli religious law regarding patrimony, marriage, etc, here the things are also complex, however,

the child is listed on mother's id card here (child has own id number but listed on one parent's card), father has the daughter listed as his minor dependant meaning that he has to give permission as well as the mother for most things. not sure however if it includes getting passports and stuff, since here, both parents have to be present to get minor's passport, and endless other things.

the question is: the mother doesnt want to stay with this man anymore (convoluted story), which means that if they dont stay together in same house (an other comlicated and annoying immigration ruling), the man has 24 hours (!) to leave the country (usually given two weeks grace period before they come to look for him to sort stuff out), and that is where we want to know what can happen.

here in israel, the mother can get a restraining order on the child's israeli passport and they would pick it up at the airport.

but suppose the father decides to take the girl out using her thai passport (not sure how immi. here would actually check this stuff out but they seem to be very thorough about flipping thru all passports when dual nationality even when leaving when its concerning a minor but father being thai and child being /appearing 100% immigration would tend to be lax)?

what laws apply? thai? israeli? (kidnapping i mean). since its not a divorce, and essentially, the father would be deported or willingly escorted out of the country, since he can not stay here (israeli law doesn not care that he has a child, since the child still has one functioning parent with citizenship taking care of her, the other parent being a foreign temp. resident doesnt get any brownie points...just shown the door.

now the opposite. they are all in thailand. living separately. the father takes the child to visit grandma and doesnt return her. barring the fact that my friend is a muslem woman with many brothers who believe in family honour, what laws apply, since they arent married but essentially they are also both holding dual thai and israeli citizenship. there is no 'custody' documents. only the name of the father on the birth certificat.

there is probably more stuff that i missed caused she was so typically thai/vague about paperwork and what was and wasnt registered, but that is the jist.

so what are the scenarios.?

yes, i know, ask a lawyer, but before that, just to get some info. she's already paid lawyers for last years visa fiasco(told immigration that she was through with the man, so he had the two week grace period and she regretted what she said and had to pay thousands of shekels to get his yearly residency back in various trial periods/installments. she htought they would allow him to stay since he is the father of her child. she's good as a translator but terrible with beurocracy.

thanx bina

[Mario2008]

In Israel, the Israeli law will apply. As you noted, it is possible to put the child on a list so the child can not be taken out of the country with approval of both parents. Trying to do that would be a crime an can lead to arrest. I can never hurt to inform the authorities that the child also has a Thai passport, especially it the passport details are available.

In Thailand it will be a little more complicated. If not married, being on the birth certificate is not enough. Under Thai law the father has to legitimize the child to gain parental rights. If not, the mother has sole parental rights and the father has none. He will have to go to court to be recognized as the father and also to get shared custody over the child.

However, in the case a child was born abroad, the legalization of the child might be done according to the laws of that country, just as a marriage abroad according to the laws of that country will be recognized by Thailand. So it might depend if the child was legitimised under the law of Israel. if that is the case, the next question will be if Thailand would recognize that. Court rulings, such about custody over a child, are normally not recognized, but marriages and divorces abroad are.

If Thai law will accept a legitimization of the child under Israeli law, both parents will have equal parental rights and will have to go to court to make any change in that. The Thai court will make a decision according to what they think is the best for the child and normally awards one parents prime care over the child with visitation rights for the other parent. But I don't believe there will be restrictions that the child must stay in Thailand.

Only when one of the parents is incapable or a danger to the child will one of the parents receive sole custody over the child.

.

[bina]

ok, not to be tedious, but: i have to reiterate to make sure im following correctly: my comments on both your and my older comments, in blue.

In Israel, the Israeli law will apply. As you noted, it is possible to put the child on a list so the child can not be taken out of the country with approval of both parents. Trying to do that would be a crime an can lead to arrest. I can never hurt to inform the authorities that the child also has a Thai passport, especially it the passport details are available.--a 'tzav yitzia m'haaretz' (warrant not allowing the child to leave the country) could be done on her israeli passport and her thai passport joined as an additional document, perhaps she can get something on that from the thai consulate.

If Thai law will accept a legitimization of the child under Israeli law, both parents will have equal parental rights and will have to go to court to make any change in that. The Thai court will make a decision according to what they think is the best for the child and normally awards one parents prime care over the child with visitation rights for the other parent. But I don't believe there will be restrictions that the child must stay in Thailand.

Only when one of the parents is incapable or a danger to the child will one of the parents receive sole custody over the child.

In Thailand it will be a little more complicated. If not married, being on the birth certificate is not enough. Under Thai law the father has to legitimize the child to gain parental rights.what is that called in thai?

If not, the mother has sole parental rights and the father has none. He will have to go to court to be recognized as the father and also to get shared custody over the child.

However, in the case a child was born abroad, the legalization of the child might be done according to the laws of that country, just as a marriage abroad according to the laws of that country will be recognized by Thailand.

ok again, here we have many variations. they both are not jewish, therefore, they dont have to go to halachtic court (as i did for divorce, and will have to again, if i want to divorce my thai husband, because i am registered as jewish). the second problem is that in israel, a child born out of wedlock 'belongs' only to the mother although not considered a 'bastard' (in the legal bibilical term, meaning child born from adultery, including up to a child conceived within 40 days of a civil and relgious divorce).... so not sure how it applies to a thai/thai couple here, where they dont belong to the christian church, waqf (muslem relgious legal system)or jewish system. she is considered a 'single mother' for all welfare purposes here, the father not being recognized therefore, as far as i can see.

So it might depend if the child was legitimised under the law of Israel. if that is the case, the next question will be if Thailand would recognize that. Court rulings, such about custody over a child, are normally not recognized, but marriages and divorces abroad are.

the question is how she was registered in the thai embassy? and then at the amphur of my friend, i guess...

once back in thailand however, if the father isnt listed as the legalized father of the child, if he takes her, basically, apart from sending irate brothers to bring the child back, she has no recourse? he is actually a good father, but her family is less bannork, although muslem and fairly relgious, which might not be a bad thing since they (my friend and her siblings) attended good schools and are a 'good' family and not dirt poor. the father is a kon kaen village boy, no money etc.

thanx, if u could just clarify the terms also in thai or point out the laws or websites in thai i can give them to her.

pretty skeptical that anything will happen either way, she's indecisive at the moment and just checking out options.

forgot to add the convulutions: she was married once in thailand to someone who promply left her (it was to help him come over with a visa but it didnt work out). she came back to israel w/o the guy, and w/o getting a divorce (they were married in amphur).

only two weeks ago she got the court order to give her a divorce from him as he has disappeared-- about six yrs ago.

meanwhile, she has given birth to this now three year old girl. so according to israeli law, if they were to know that she was still legally married to the previous thai guy, this child would be considered in a problem area of the law, as a 'bastard' and therefore here, not very likely that she would get any kind of patrimony from the present biological father... and also,in thailand, she would have appeared as 'married' to the prevoius thai guy when she registered the birth of her three yr old daughter.... would that cause any problems? .....

regular thai telenovella........better then tv.....

bina

israel

[mkawish]

bina

All along, I thought you were just a simple lady. LOL

Reading your exposition reminds me of when a two square foot of puzzle pieces needed to be put together over the weekend. Ouuu La La.

Hope you'll find a happy ending for this complicated human endeavors toward attaining different forms of happiness.

[Mario2008]

I don't know the Thai legal term for applying for custody.

The child was not born out of wedlock.The fact that the mother was still married complicates the matter considerably. Under Thai law, her (ex)husband is considered to be the father of the child, as he was her husband at the time the child was born.

Since the child was born in Israel, it will also depends on what that law says. But many countries have the same rule as Thailand, when married the husband is automatically considered to be the father of the child. Finding out what the law of Israel is on this point is the first step.

Under Thai law, the husband would have to denounce the child as his otherwise the child would be legally his. (You simply have different kind of parenthood: legal, biological and social. They are not always combined).

I'm not confident in giving legal advise in this matter, as the law of different countries apply and I'm in the dark about the laws of Israel. But chances are high the father of the child is not the legal father and the mother will have sole custody over the child. If the father would like to change that, he will have to go to court. But in that case, under Thai law he will face the problem that legally the husband of the mother is considered to be the father and the husband will have to renounce the child as his first before the father can do anything about that. As said, I'm not sure about Israeli law on this point but often it is like wise.

(In Europe the father could get visitation rights to the child, as there has been family live between the father and the child).

If the mother has sole custody over the child, she determines the right where the child stays. If the father takes the child without her permission it is kidnapping, with all legal repercussions for him.

Thailand will consider the husband to be the father, not the biological father.

More about Thai family law can be found here:

There is also a link there to the Thai family law, in both English and Thai.

[bina]

I don't know the Thai legal term for applying for custody.

ugh. thanx mario.

what i was afraid of. at least for the thai side of the coin.

as for the israeli side: fortunately she is not jewish and neither is the present biological father and her previous marriage has no consequences here in israel unless she were to marry (again) a jewish man. in which case .............

if one of the spouses was jewish, then teh child would be a 'bastard' meaning when seh would want to get married she would not be able to marry the usual way, here according to halachtic law which is the only law that applies here for marraige, divorce and death. so often here the courts skirt around these issues and consider the child, a child of a single mother...

so here she is also techinically considered a single mother, meaning that only she can give permission in hospitals, courts etc...so he doesnt get custody, but could technically , after proving paternity, be sued for patrimony. the thai part will be a major headache as far as i can see.......maybe being muslem she can find something in muslem waqf law that goes in her direction (and there are things)...

... gives me a headache....

thanx a million mario...from N and Y

bina

israel.

[Mario2008]

As said, under Thai law the husband and not the biological father will be considered the father as far as the law is concerned. The husband can renounce the child, he has to do so within 1 year of the birth and in any case no later than 10 years after the birth of the child. If he doesn't renounce the child, he will have joined custody togehter with the mother and will have to co-sign for a passport for the child.

Relevant sections are 1539 and following of Book V of the Thai civil code: http://www.thailawonline.com/images/thaicivilcode/book%205%20title%201-3%20thai%20civil%20and%20commercial%20code%20.pdf

[bina]

the (now as of two weeks ago)ex husband is a no-show for the past 6 yrs so no getting signatures etc. better for all around to just say that N is a single mother, the biological father will have to either help our or not as he sees fit (which he will as he loves his daughter) and everyone should just leave sleeping dogs lie....

will give her the info, and the links she can do with what she likes...

anybody want to make a movie out of this? ... )

bina

israel

just realized, the child has a thai passport i think. how did she get the passport only with the mother if mother is registerd as married, albeit to someone who hasnt been around for a long time, and the child is only 3 yrs old and from a thai father here in israel, and the child was born here? or is the marriage info not in the computer? i'll have to ask that one...

[Mario2008]

The embassy probably didn't check the marital status of the mother, just looked at the birth certificate and wanted the signature of the person listed as the father on their.

Normally people only look at the birth certificate and in Israel there is no way the authorities will know she was married. In Thailand this could be different, although there are not many instances in which they will check. But obtaining a Thai passport for the child in Thailand could be one of those instances.

It might be best to not leave it, as after a certain period the now ex-husband will no longer be able to renounce the child as his.

[bina]

The embassy probably didn't check the marital status of the mother, just looked at the birth certificate and wanted the signature of the person listed as the father on their.

Normally people only look at the birth certificate and in Israel there is no way the authorities will know she was married. In Thailand this could be different, although there are not many instances in which they will check. But obtaining a Thai passport for the child in Thailand could be one of those instances.

It might be best to not leave it, as after a certain period the now ex-husband will no longer be able to renounce the child as his.

well, horses drinking water is the saying that comes to mine.... she's thai with a thai attitude to beurocreacy and future; i just pass the info on. if she had thought things thru in the first place she would have taken care of the divorce thingy when she still new where the guy was; it was a marriage of conveneince for him to get visa to work, and it didnt work out ....at any rate, thanx for thinking thigns through for me, its amazing how peoples lives get so complicated by a bit of stupid paperwork for a dumb reason... further complicated by crossing country borders.

bina