88.00 Fm - Thailand Declared War On Germany?

[JohnnyFeelIt]

As the title says, I was just listening to 88.00FM English landguage editorial thing they do, while sat in traffic. I assume they were talking about WWII, never caught the start of it. But apparently Thailand remained neutral at the start of WWII, and then delared war on Germany and went to Europe to fight with the Allies... Did anyone else hear that?

[Xangsamhua]

They're talking about World War One.

http://www.firstworldwar.com/features/thailand.htm

[JohnnyFeelIt]

ahh, thx.. I did check a few other websites and did a google. But there was no mention of Thailand having any involvement in WW1.

Infact, this thread is already the top hit on google to that effect, strange...

[SweatiePie]

Very strange. My Google searches for thailand ww1 and ww1 thailand both came up with this as the top hit.

Your grasp of history is also a little strange. In WWI Thailand declared war with Germany and fought on the side of the allies, while in WWII Thailand (effectively under Japanese occupation/control) declared war on the allies (or at least tried to, as the declaration to the USA was not delivered) but actually fought with no-one.

Edited November 5, 2010 by SweatiePie

[Kwasaki]

Britain formed an alliance with Japan in 1902, and its old enemies France and Russia in 1904 and 1907, respectively.

Thailand in world war 1 officially declared war on the Central Powers 22 July 1917.

A small force of 1,284 Thai volunteers were shipped off to serve in Europe.

It is unclear whether they actually fought or whether they were too late in arriving.

The only clear record is of the medical units actively participating.

During World War II, the Empire of Japan demanded the right to move troops across Thailand to the Malayan frontier.

Japan invaded the country and engaged the Thai Army for six to eight hours before Plaek Pibulsonggram ordered an armistice.

Shortly thereafter Japan was granted free passage, and on December 21, 1941, Thailand and Japan signed a military alliance with a secret protocol wherein Tokyo agreed to help Thailand regain territories lost to the British and French.

Subsequently, Thailand undertook to 'assist' Japan in its war against the Allies, while at the same time maintaining an active anti-Japanese resistance movement known as the Seri Thai. About 200,000 Asian labourers and 60,000 Allied POWs worked on the ThailandBurma Death Railway.

After the war, Thailand emerged as an ally of the United States.

As with many of the developing nations during the Cold War, Thailand then went through decades of political instability characterised by coups d'état as one military regime replaced another, but eventually progressed towards a stable prosperity and democracy in the 1980s.

The Japanese surrendered on August 15, 1945.

Immediately, the Allied military responsibility for Thailand fell to the British.

As soon as practicable, British troops were flown in and these rapidly secured the release of surviving POWs.

The British were surprised to find that the disarmament of the Japanese soldiers had already been largely completed by the Thais.

info from wlki

Edited November 5, 2010 by Kwasaki

[mark45y]

Don't forget the Franco Thai war 1940-1941. Thailand's 60,000 man well equipped army attacked the French in Vientiane among other places. Thai Thais swiftly took Laos, Cambodia was a bit tougher. The Thais were flying American Hawk fighter planes. The Thai navy was asleep at the wheel and the French sank a couple of torpedo boats and a coastal defense ship.

Thais being tired of fighting asked their buddies, the Japanese to negotiate a settlement which they did to the favor of the Thais. Japanese pilots also helped the Thais fight the French before the signed Japanese Thai alliance and before the start of WW II.

The Thais and the Japanese were friends quite some time before WW II started and it was a forgone conclusion they would be allies during the war. Had the Thais wanted to really resist the Japanese landings they had 60,000 battle tested troops, artillery and combat aircraft to do so. The Japanese army that landed to go on to deafest Singapore was only 50,000 men.

The Seri Thai and the rest of the fantasy about the Thai freedom fighters is mostly after the war PR. Before the pundits dispute me. Try and find any factual information about the actions of the Seri Thai during the war. The Allies were given intelligence by the Seri Thai but they never trusted it and did not act on it except in the dreams of the people writing after the war.

Thailand's secret war: the Free Thai, OSS, and SOE during WW II.

Thailand's War With Vichy France

George Horvath, 1 March 1995

[Tonto21]

Britain formed an alliance with Japan in 1902, and its old enemies France and Russia in 1904 and 1907, respectively.

Thailand in world war 1 officially declared war on the Central Powers 22 July 1917.

A small force of 1,284 Thai volunteers were shipped off to serve in Europe.

It is unclear whether they actually fought or whether they were too late in arriving.

The only clear record is of the medical units actively participating.

During World War II, the Empire of Japan demanded the right to move troops across Thailand to the Malayan frontier.

Japan invaded the country and engaged the Thai Army for six to eight hours before Plaek Pibulsonggram ordered an armistice.

Shortly thereafter Japan was granted free passage, and on December 21, 1941, Thailand and Japan signed a military alliance with a secret protocol wherein Tokyo agreed to help Thailand regain territories lost to the British and French.

Subsequently, Thailand undertook to 'assist' Japan in its war against the Allies, while at the same time maintaining an active anti-Japanese resistance movement known as the Seri Thai. About 200,000 Asian labourers and 60,000 Allied POWs worked on the Thailand–Burma Death Railway.

After the war, Thailand emerged as an ally of the United States.

As with many of the developing nations during the Cold War, Thailand then went through decades of political instability characterised by coups d'état as one military regime replaced another, but eventually progressed towards a stable prosperity and democracy in the 1980s.

The Japanese surrendered on August 15, 1945.

Immediately, the Allied military responsibility for Thailand fell to the British.

As soon as practicable, British troops were flown in and these rapidly secured the release of surviving POWs.

The British were surprised to find that the disarmament of the Japanese soldiers had already been largely completed by the Thais.

info from wlki

One other thing" The only women to have serviced in the trenches, (1^st world war) were from the Thai medical core.

[DP25]

Thais being tired of fighting asked their buddies, the Japanese to negotiate a settlement which they did to the favor of the Thais.

Actually Japan forced the Thais to stop their war against the Vichy France colony. It was going badly for the cut off colony and Japan had bigger plans and didn't want to the two 'allies' fighting.

[Groongthep]

Don't forget the Franco Thai war 1940-1941.

Bangkok's Victory Monument commemorates this event. What Piboonsongram wanted in particular in this short military conflict were the territories which Thailand (then Siam) was forced to cede to France in 1893 and 1904 under threat of French invasion.

[Livinginexile]

Britain formed an alliance with Japan in 1902, and its old enemies France and Russia in 1904 and 1907, respectively.

Thailand in world war 1 officially declared war on the Central Powers 22 July 1917.

A small force of 1,284 Thai volunteers were shipped off to serve in Europe.

It is unclear whether they actually fought or whether they were too late in arriving.

The only clear record is of the medical units actively participating.

During World War II, the Empire of Japan demanded the right to move troops across Thailand to the Malayan frontier.

Japan invaded the country and engaged the Thai Army for six to eight hours before Plaek Pibulsonggram ordered an armistice.

Shortly thereafter Japan was granted free passage, and on December 21, 1941, Thailand and Japan signed a military alliance with a secret protocol wherein Tokyo agreed to help Thailand regain territories lost to the British and French.

Subsequently, Thailand undertook to 'assist' Japan in its war against the Allies, while at the same time maintaining an active anti-Japanese resistance movement known as the Seri Thai. About 200,000 Asian labourers and 60,000 Allied POWs worked on the Thailand–Burma Death Railway.

After the war, Thailand emerged as an ally of the United States.

As with many of the developing nations during the Cold War, Thailand then went through decades of political instability characterised by coups d'état as one military regime replaced another, but eventually progressed towards a stable prosperity and democracy in the 1980s.

The Japanese surrendered on August 15, 1945.

Immediately, the Allied military responsibility for Thailand fell to the British.

As soon as practicable, British troops were flown in and these rapidly secured the release of surviving POWs.

The British were surprised to find that the disarmament of the Japanese soldiers had already been largely completed by the Thais.

info from wlki

Thai's being Thai will side with whatever side will give them the greatest immediate economic/military benefit.

The truth is, the whole tide of the Japanese dominance of S/E Asia may have been averted if Thailand had not sided with the Japanese.

[Richard W]

... in WWII Thailand (effectively under Japanese occupation/control) declared war on the allies ... but actually fought with no-one.

Thai forces fought Kuomintang forces defending Chiengtung.

[Kwasaki]

Your so right " Tonto21 ". very brave girls indeed.

The Thais arrived in 1918 and the air personnel began training at the French Army Flying Schools at Avord and Istres.

Over 95 men qualified as pilots and some were sent to Bomber School at Le Crotoy, Reconnaissance School at Chapelle-la-Reine, Gunnery School at Biscarosse, and to Fighter Conversion Courses at Piox.

According to some sources, Thai pilots made their first sorties in the final weeks of the war, although others claim the Thais finished their training too late to take part.

There was also a medical unit which included nurses and it is claimed these were the only women to serve in the trenches of the Western Front.

The Thai contingent marched in a victory parade in Paris on 19 July 1919 and arrived back in Thailand on 21 September 1919. A war memorial was erected in honour of the troops and stands in Sanam Luang park in Bangkok. Inscribed are the names of the 19 soldiers killed in action on the Western Front.

[phaethon]

Imagine my disappointment to find this was not a recent event... I was imagining Abhisit and Merkel going one-on-one in Muay Thai ring...

Anyhoo:

http://thaimilitary.wordpress.com/2008/11/11/90th-anniversary-of-world-war-i-this-is-the-history-of-siamese-volunteer-crop/

The memorial for the 19 casualties of the war, who were cremated in Europe and their ashes interred in the memorial, is at the North end of Sanam Luang, close to the National Museum.

BTW: Technically no Thai soldiers served in Europe - they were all from Siam

[Chalky]

Don't forget the Franco Thai war 1940-1941. Thailand's 60,000 man well equipped army attacked the French in Vientiane among other places. Thai Thais swiftly took Laos, Cambodia was a bit tougher. The Thais were flying American Hawk fighter planes. The Thai navy was asleep at the wheel and the French sank a couple of torpedo boats and a coastal defense ship.

Thais being tired of fighting asked their buddies, the Japanese to negotiate a settlement which they did to the favor of the Thais. Japanese pilots also helped the Thais fight the French before the signed Japanese Thai alliance and before the start of WW II.

The Thais and the Japanese were friends quite some time before WW II started and it was a forgone conclusion they would be allies during the war. Had the Thais wanted to really resist the Japanese landings they had 60,000 battle tested troops, artillery and combat aircraft to do so. The Japanese army that landed to go on to deafest Singapore was only 50,000 men.

The Seri Thai and the rest of the fantasy about the Thai freedom fighters is mostly after the war PR. Before the pundits dispute me. Try and find any factual information about the actions of the Seri Thai during the war. The Allies were given intelligence by the Seri Thai but they never trusted it and did not act on it except in the dreams of the people writing after the war.

Thailand's secret war: the Free Thai, OSS, and SOE during WW II.

Thailand's War With Vichy France

George Horvath, 1 March 1995

Hi Mark, can you recommend any further reliable and unbiased (?) books on this period available in English please?

I only have "The Thai resistance Movement During WWII (John B. Haseman)". My interest is personal due to my very elderly FIL having served for quite some time in the RTA (as a volunteer, not conscripted). He reached the rank of Sgt and I would love to chat more with him about this (and my) Service experiences over our occasional Chang and SangSom get togethers!

Thanks in anticipation.

[simon43]

One other thing" The only women to have serviced in the trenches, (1st world war) were from the Thai medical core.

'Served' might be a better word to use - don't want to give people the wrong idea of the 'service' these Thai women gave

Simon

[mark45y]

Don't forget the Franco Thai war 1940-1941. Thailand's 60,000 man well equipped army attacked the French in Vientiane among other places. Thai Thais swiftly took Laos, Cambodia was a bit tougher. The Thais were flying American Hawk fighter planes. The Thai navy was asleep at the wheel and the French sank a couple of torpedo boats and a coastal defense ship.

Thais being tired of fighting asked their buddies, the Japanese to negotiate a settlement which they did to the favor of the Thais. Japanese pilots also helped the Thais fight the French before the signed Japanese Thai alliance and before the start of WW II.

The Thais and the Japanese were friends quite some time before WW II started and it was a forgone conclusion they would be allies during the war. Had the Thais wanted to really resist the Japanese landings they had 60,000 battle tested troops, artillery and combat aircraft to do so. The Japanese army that landed to go on to deafest Singapore was only 50,000 men.

The Seri Thai and the rest of the fantasy about the Thai freedom fighters is mostly after the war PR. Before the pundits dispute me. Try and find any factual information about the actions of the Seri Thai during the war. The Allies were given intelligence by the Seri Thai but they never trusted it and did not act on it except in the dreams of the people writing after the war.

Thailand's secret war: the Free Thai, OSS, and SOE during WW II.

Thailand's War With Vichy France

George Horvath, 1 March 1995

Hi Mark, can you recommend any further reliable and unbiased (?) books on this period available in English please?

I only have "The Thai resistance Movement During WWII (John B. Haseman)". My interest is personal due to my very elderly FIL having served for quite some time in the RTA (as a volunteer, not conscripted). He reached the rank of Sgt and I would love to chat more with him about this (and my) Service experiences over our occasional Chang and SangSom get togethers!

Thanks in anticipation.

Thailand's secret war: the Free Thai, OSS, and SOE during WW II has the necessary information for future research. You can preview large parts of it on line. It makes for interesting reading. But some of it is sensitive. Perhaps better not discussed on TV.

The atomic bomb seems to have come as a surprise to most people even those in the intelligence community.

Nothing the Seri Thai had been trained for turned out to be necessary. All of a sudden the war ended and there was a rush to surrender.

The Seri Thai may have done a good job to help shorten the war and aided in the eventual demise of the Japanese Empire but they never got the chance.

Any books about the CBI theater will include some references about Thailand. But it is a messed up hodgepodge of information.

No one seems to agree on much of anything. It seems odd.

A lot of documents remained classified until 1994 and some as late as 2004. I also suspect some still remain classified.

If I was interested on finding out what really happened I guess I would look at military unit histories in the CBI theater of the war.

Try a Google search for Lieutenant Colonel Khap Khunchon.

It is safe to say a lot of weird things happened in Thailand during WW II.

I also got the impression that 70 years ago in Thailand there was much more of a language problem than exists today between Bangkok and the North.

Interesting reading below as listed on: chinaburmaindiatheatre.blogspot.com

RAF Defeats: Malaya and Burma

Basic tactics adopted with P-40s against Japanese ...

China WWII: An Introduction

Japanese Cavalry during Malaya Campaign 1941-1942

Book Review: Forgotten Armies: The Fall of British...

SUBHASH CHANDRA BOSE

TATEO KATO

SATOSHI ANABUKI

China-Burma-India (CBI)

Burma Road

AIR OFFENSIVE ON JAPAN WWII - AN OVERVIEW

Book Review: British Intelligence and the Japanese...

HMS Peterel

Aussies in China WWII

INDIAN NATIONAL ARMY

WEI LIHUANG (WEI LI-HUANG) (1897–1960)

CHINDITS AN OVERVIEW

CHINDITS OPERATIONS

FALL OF MALAYA

SANDEMAN'S CHARGE

Joseph Warren Stilwell

[JohnnyFeelIt]

Very strange. My Google searches for thailand ww1 and ww1 thailand both came up with this as the top hit.

Your grasp of history is also a little strange. In WWI Thailand declared war with Germany and fought on the side of the allies, while in WWII Thailand (effectively under Japanese occupation/control) declared war on the allies (or at least tried to, as the declaration to the USA was not delivered) but actually fought with no-one.

I didn't use the same strings as above, so that would explain that.

What I mentioned in the OP was what I understood the radio to have said, I also thought it was a little strange, hence this thread..

Seems this has turned into a good history lesson anyways, so all was not lost.. I certainly learnt a few things, thx

[escaped]

]The Thai contingent marched in a victory parade in Paris on 19 July 1919 and arrived back in Thailand on 21 September 1919. A war memorial was erected in honour of the troops and stands in Sanam Luang park in Bangkok. Inscribed are the names of the 19 soldiers killed in action on the Western Front.

What they died of...........old age?

Edited November 6, 2010 by escaped

[JusMe]

Tried posting this last night but had difficulties getting it up, so let's try again:

Hi Mark, can you recommend any further reliable and unbiased (?) books on this period available in English please?

I only have "The Thai resistance Movement During WWII (John B. Haseman)". My interest is personal due to my very elderly FIL having served for quite some time in the RTA (as a volunteer, not conscripted). He reached the rank of Sgt and I would love to chat more with him about this (and my) Service experiences over our occasional Chang and SangSom get togethers!

Thanks in anticipation.

Thailand's secret war: the Free Thai, OSS, and SOE during World War II / E. Bruce ReynoldsCambridge, U.K. : Cambridge University Press, 2005.

Thailand and Japan's southern advance, 1940-1945 / E. Bruce Reynolds.by Reynolds, Edward Bruce.New York : St. Martin's Press, 1994.

Thai-Japanese relations in historical perspective / edited by Chaiwat Khamchoo, E. Bruce Reynolds.by Chaiwat Khamchoo., Reynolds, Edward Bruce.Bangkok : Institute of Asian Studies, Chulalongkorn University, 1988.

Japan's relations with Thailand: 1928-41.by Flood, Edward Thadeus, 1932-Ann Arbor, Mich., University Microfilms International, 1985-Description: v.Dissertation Note: Thesis (PH.D) - University of Washington.

The 1940 Franco-Thai border dispute and Phiboon Sonkhram's commitment to Japan.by Flood, E. Thadeus.n.p., 1969.

All these highly recommended for study of that period. Both Flood and Reynolds are amongst the few completely fluent in Thai, English and Japanese, and have researched documents in all three languages.

The Flood: Japan's relations with Thailand is his doctoral thesis, and brilliant. A copy is available on the shelves at Thammasat University, Pridi Banomyong LIbrary.

If you can get a copy of Reynolds: Ambivalent Allies: Japan and Thailand 1941-1945, that too is excellent. It is his doctoral thesis. Not sure where it's available, but not the local university.

I do have pdf copies of both these latter theses.

[SweatiePie]

... in WWII Thailand (effectively under Japanese occupation/control) declared war on the allies ... but actually fought with no-one.

Thai forces fought Kuomintang forces defending Chiengtung.

I think you are confusing Kentung, (Kengtung) and Chongqing (Chungking). Kentung was the objective of the Thai Phayap Army in 1942 in the Shan States in an attempt to extend Thai territory into Burma. It resulted in around 4,000 Burmese and Shan dead for only 367 Thai dead so was successful militarily, but the territory was returned to Burma after the war. Nothing to do with the KMT (or WW2).

Chongqing was the KMT provisional capital,heavily bombed by the Japanese Air Force in 1942, and the location for the KMT / Chinese Communist Party peace negotiations in 1945. Nothing to do with Thai forces.

[SweatiePie]

The Seri Thai and the rest of the fantasy about the Thai freedom fighters is mostly after the war PR. Before the pundits dispute me. Try and find any factual information about the actions of the Seri Thai during the war.

You could also have an interesting time trying to find out what happened to all the Thai personal and corporate funds held in US bank accounts that had been frozen by the US and was handed over to Mom Seni Pramoj, supposedly to fund the Seri Thai (and which has never been accounted for).

[mark45y]

Just of the top of my head without fact checking a little history may be in order. Feel free to correct me.

Taking December 7th Pearl Harbor as the end date lets go back 20 years. 20 years is not a long time. Today I don't feel 1980 is ancient history. So if I was Thai in 1940, 20 years before 1920 what was happening.

Phibun was going to school in France. During that time he was effected by the revolutionary thoughts prevalent at the time. He came back to Thailand and overthrew the absolute monarchy which was replaced by a constitutional monarchy five years later. The new king was only a child and lived in Switzerland.

It was not the same situation as today. The deification of certain elements of Thai society was not the same as today. All of Siam did not speak Bangkok Thai. There were few roads. Society was Bangkok and the rest of Thailand and they were separate groups.

Phibun became Prime minister and wanted to change Thailand from a rural society into a modern society. People did not eat with forks and spoons (hands), the women were topless and men wore skirts. Thailand was not the same place as it is today. Phibun passed a bunch of laws that most people did not like. He also needed money to turn Thailand into a modern society. Realize in the 1930's and 1940's opium was legal and it was normal to have an opium pipe after dinner in hi so homes in Bangkok. Phibun also hated the Chinese who he thought were the "Jews of Asia" (from a book by that title). I won't go into the reasons but suffice it to say the Bangkok elite did not like the Chinese at all. Phibun set his sights on the opium growing regions outside of Thailand to finance part of this modernization. He made a deal with the Japanese and then in 1940 attacked areas under French control starting the Franco Thai war.

Edited November 8, 2010 by mark45y

[mark45y]

I don't think Phibun drank. It would be easy to explain if he and all the Thai leaders were drunk but that seems not to have been the case. Phibun had a couple of children in the US going to school at the time he declared war on the US.

Even before he declared war on the US he declared war on France. Did he not know France was an ally of the US and UK?

A year before WWII when he declared war on France there were US fighter planes in the loop to be delivered to Thailand. After he declared war on France the US stopped delivery of the fighter planes and froze all of the Thai assets in the US. His kids were in school in the US how smart was this?

The Thai embassy in the US was running drastically low on money when finally a year later in 1941 the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor.

It is not hard to figure out why what happened, happened. The Thais in the US needed money and became allies of the US and the Thais in Thailand needed money and became allies of the Japanese.

They even tried to set up a government in exile in the UK to get some more money for the Thais in England but it didn't work.

[Chalky]

Don't forget the Franco Thai war 1940-1941. Thailand's 60,000 man well equipped army attacked the French in Vientiane among other places. Thai Thais swiftly took Laos, Cambodia was a bit tougher. The Thais were flying American Hawk fighter planes. The Thai navy was asleep at the wheel and the French sank a couple of torpedo boats and a coastal defense ship.

Thais being tired of fighting asked their buddies, the Japanese to negotiate a settlement which they did to the favor of the Thais. Japanese pilots also helped the Thais fight the French before the signed Japanese Thai alliance and before the start of WW II.

The Thais and the Japanese were friends quite some time before WW II started and it was a forgone conclusion they would be allies during the war. Had the Thais wanted to really resist the Japanese landings they had 60,000 battle tested troops, artillery and combat aircraft to do so. The Japanese army that landed to go on to deafest Singapore was only 50,000 men.

The Seri Thai and the rest of the fantasy about the Thai freedom fighters is mostly after the war PR. Before the pundits dispute me. Try and find any factual information about the actions of the Seri Thai during the war. The Allies were given intelligence by the Seri Thai but they never trusted it and did not act on it except in the dreams of the people writing after the war.

Thailand's secret war: the Free Thai, OSS, and SOE during WW II.

Thailand's War With Vichy France

George Horvath, 1 March 1995

Hi Mark, can you recommend any further reliable and unbiased (?) books on this period available in English please?

I only have "The Thai resistance Movement During WWII (John B. Haseman)". My interest is personal due to my very elderly FIL having served for quite some time in the RTA (as a volunteer, not conscripted). He reached the rank of Sgt and I would love to chat more with him about this (and my) Service experiences over our occasional Chang and SangSom get togethers!

Thanks in anticipation.

Thailand's secret war: the Free Thai, OSS, and SOE during WW II has the necessary information for future research. You can preview large parts of it on line. It makes for interesting reading. But some of it is sensitive. Perhaps better not discussed on TV.

The atomic bomb seems to have come as a surprise to most people even those in the intelligence community.

Nothing the Seri Thai had been trained for turned out to be necessary. All of a sudden the war ended and there was a rush to surrender.

The Seri Thai may have done a good job to help shorten the war and aided in the eventual demise of the Japanese Empire but they never got the chance.

Any books about the CBI theater will include some references about Thailand. But it is a messed up hodgepodge of information.

No one seems to agree on much of anything. It seems odd.

A lot of documents remained classified until 1994 and some as late as 2004. I also suspect some still remain classified.

If I was interested on finding out what really happened I guess I would look at military unit histories in the CBI theater of the war.

Try a Google search for Lieutenant Colonel Khap Khunchon.

It is safe to say a lot of weird things happened in Thailand during WW II.

I also got the impression that 70 years ago in Thailand there was much more of a language problem than exists today between Bangkok and the North.

Interesting reading below as listed on: chinaburmaindiatheatre.blogspot.com

RAF Defeats: Malaya and Burma

Basic tactics adopted with P-40s against Japanese ...

China WWII: An Introduction

Japanese Cavalry during Malaya Campaign 1941-1942

Book Review: Forgotten Armies: The Fall of British...

SUBHASH CHANDRA BOSE

TATEO KATO

SATOSHI ANABUKI

China-Burma-India (CBI)

Burma Road

AIR OFFENSIVE ON JAPAN WWII - AN OVERVIEW

Book Review: British Intelligence and the Japanese...

HMS Peterel

Aussies in China WWII

INDIAN NATIONAL ARMY

WEI LIHUANG (WEI LI-HUANG) (1897–1960)

CHINDITS AN OVERVIEW

CHINDITS OPERATIONS

FALL OF MALAYA

SANDEMAN'S CHARGE

Joseph Warren Stilwell

Xclnt, VMT -

[Chalky]

Tried posting this last night but had difficulties getting it up, so let's try again:

Hi Mark, can you recommend any further reliable and unbiased (?) books on this period available in English please?

I only have "The Thai resistance Movement During WWII (John B. Haseman)". My interest is personal due to my very elderly FIL having served for quite some time in the RTA (as a volunteer, not conscripted). He reached the rank of Sgt and I would love to chat more with him about this (and my) Service experiences over our occasional Chang and SangSom get togethers!

Thanks in anticipation.

Thailand's secret war: the Free Thai, OSS, and SOE during World War II / E. Bruce ReynoldsCambridge, U.K. : Cambridge University Press, 2005.

Thailand and Japan's southern advance, 1940-1945 / E. Bruce Reynolds.by Reynolds, Edward Bruce.New York : St. Martin's Press, 1994.

Thai-Japanese relations in historical perspective / edited by Chaiwat Khamchoo, E. Bruce Reynolds.by Chaiwat Khamchoo., Reynolds, Edward Bruce.Bangkok : Institute of Asian Studies, Chulalongkorn University, 1988.

Japan's relations with Thailand: 1928-41.by Flood, Edward Thadeus, 1932-Ann Arbor, Mich., University Microfilms International, 1985-Description: v.Dissertation Note: Thesis (PH.D) - University of Washington.

The 1940 Franco-Thai border dispute and Phiboon Sonkhram's commitment to Japan.by Flood, E. Thadeus.n.p., 1969.

All these highly recommended for study of that period. Both Flood and Reynolds are amongst the few completely fluent in Thai, English and Japanese, and have researched documents in all three languages.

The Flood: Japan's relations with Thailand is his doctoral thesis, and brilliant. A copy is available on the shelves at Thammasat University, Pridi Banomyong LIbrary.

If you can get a copy of Reynolds: Ambivalent Allies: Japan and Thailand 1941-1945, that too is excellent. It is his doctoral thesis. Not sure where it's available, but not the local university.

I do have pdf copies of both these latter theses.

VMT JM, looks like your posting is back on

[Richard W]

... in WWII Thailand (effectively under Japanese occupation/control) declared war on the allies ... but actually fought with no-one.

Thai forces fought Kuomintang forces defending Chiengtung.

I think you are confusing Kentung, (Kengtung) and Chongqing (Chungking).

...

Chongqing was the KMT provisional capital,heavily bombed by the Japanese Air Force in 1942, and the location for the KMT / Chinese Communist Party peace negotiations in 1945. Nothing to do with Thai forces.

No, as it was the RTAF which bombed Chiengtung. I was applying the principal of using the local name, namely ᨩ᩠ᨿᨦᨲᩩᨦ (Thai เชียงตุง). I may, of course, be mistaken as to the pronuciation of the first vowel - I know Lue and Shan have simplified /ia/ to /e/, and I see one of its princes has spelt the name 'Jengtung' - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sao_Sāimöng.

[mark45y]

Very strange. My Google searches for thailand ww1 and ww1 thailand both came up with this as the top hit.

Your grasp of history is also a little strange. In WWI Thailand declared war with Germany and fought on the side of the allies, while in WWII Thailand (effectively under Japanese occupation/control) declared war on the allies (or at least tried to, as the declaration to the USA was not delivered) but actually fought with no-one.

To be accurate WWII started in 1939 and Thailand attacked the French in 1940.

[Richard W]

To be accurate WWII started in 1939 and Thailand attacked the French in 1940.

Vichy France had already bombed Gibraltar. French Indo-China remained Vichy-aligned.

[SweatiePie]

... in WWII Thailand (effectively under Japanese occupation/control) declared war on the allies ... but actually fought with no-one.

Thai forces fought Kuomintang forces defending Chiengtung.

I think you are confusing Kentung, (Kengtung) and Chongqing (Chungking).

...

Chongqing was the KMT provisional capital,heavily bombed by the Japanese Air Force in 1942, and the location for the KMT / Chinese Communist Party peace negotiations in 1945. Nothing to do with Thai forces.

No, as it was the RTAF which bombed Chiengtung. I was applying the principal of using the local name, namely ᨩ᩠ᨿᨦᨲᩩᨦ (Thai เชียงตุง). I may, of course, be mistaken as to the pronuciation of the first vowel - I know Lue and Shan have simplified /ia/ to /e/, and I see one of its princes has spelt the name 'Jengtung' - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sao_Sāimöng.

If you had not edited my post deleting the detail about Kentung your confusion would be clear.

As I originally posted (unedited):

I think you are confusing Kentung, (Kengtung) and Chongqing (Chungking). Kentung was the objective of the Thai Phayap Army in 1942 in the Shan States in an attempt to extend Thai territory into Burma. It resulted in around 4,000 Burmese and Shan dead for only 367 Thai dead so was successful militarily, but the territory was returned to Burma after the war. Nothing to do with the KMT (or WW2).

Chongqing was the KMT provisional capital,heavily bombed by the Japanese Air Force in 1942, and the location for the KMT / Chinese Communist Party peace negotiations in 1945. Nothing to do with Thai forces.

Your confusion is confirmed by your own link. Kentung / Kengtung / Chiengtung was attacked by the Thai Phayap Army in 1942, with RTAF support, resulting in considerable Shan and Burmese casualties. There were no KMT there. This was a "land grab" - nothing else.

The KMT were based in Chongqing.

If you have any evidence of Thai forces fighting the KMT anywhere please post it.

[SweatiePie]

Just of the top of my head without fact checking a little history may be in order. Feel free to correct me.

OK!

Phibun also hated the Chinese who he thought were the "Jews of Asia" (from a book by that title). I won't go into the reasons but suffice it to say the Bangkok elite did not like the Chinese at all.

Not only Phibun, and not quite correct. The "book" you are probably referring to was an essay entitled The Jews of the Orient which was written in 1914 by King Rama VI (King Vajiravudh). Luang Wichitwathakan, a minister in Phibun'sgovernment, comared the Chinese in Siam to the Jews in Germany in a speech he made in 1938.

Thai assets in the US were not frozen by Roosevelt until 1941, when the US entered the war at the same time as the US froze Japanese assets in the US; Thailand declared war on the allies on 25 January 1942.

The Franco-Thai war was hardly connected with WWII - it was a strictly local affair and (feel free to correct me!) I have never heard of an actual declaration of war on France by the Thais.